Hate Crimes/culture

[Guest end3]

A George Bush derivative.....egregiate.....egregiation.....

[♦ ficino ♦]

Seems from all I hear most aren't so opposed to gays marrying per se, it's a "slippery slope" thing. Because next people will be marrying their pets. It only logically follows.

 

Rick "Man on Dog" Santorum was fond of such slippery slope arguments. They are notorious fallacies; the conclusion does not logically follow.

[BrotherJosh]

sorry, my bad. damn redneck upbringin'

 

No worries! It was just bugging me. In answer to your question...homosexuals haven't always been as maligned as we are now experiencing in our culture. It seems to me, that it was regarded as a fringe issue and didn't register on the mainstream radar. Other groups were more easily identifiable, such as the Irish, Italians, Catholics, Jews, Blacks, women, etc...this is, of course, recent western history. Now that we have relative equality for the aforementioned groups, gays are kind of the last minority group that aren't afforded the same rights as everyone else.

 

As far as throughout history in general, well it depends on the time, place and culture. Greece and Rome were never "anti-Gay". From what I can see, the anti-Gay stance is usually religiously motivated. And most religions were formed by agriculturally or nomadic based cultures, who would place an importance on offspring i.e. workers. However, the same might be said of early America, as well. Infant and child death rates were crazy high, so having as many kids as possible made sense, especially if you needed farm hands. Since our culture has shifted since that time, having offspring is no longer a necessity.

 

I'm no expert, just my take on it...as to how people think gay marriage will literally destroy heterosexual marriages, no idea.

[florduh]

What specifics are argued today regarding why gays marrying would be detrimental to "the norm".

You should ask the Christian right wing. I haven't seen any cogent arguments from them, just that 'God didn't create Adam and Steve, next we'll have to let people marry goats, it destroys the family unit' in some unspecified way, etc. Honestly, I think the only supportable argument is that it isn't biblical, though some would find problems with even that argument.

[Vigile]

No, of course not. But I'll tell you what I CAN do. I can make your time here miserable. I will hound you like none other.

 

Get back on the meds you friggin' wack-a-doodle. This guy is a newby and you are in no way encouraging him, but rather creating a trollish environment for the site.

 

You have a long history of acting like a nut, going off on people and then dragging your tail between your legs in half-hearted apology. I'm not buying any of it.

 

If I were a mod I'd ban your ass for this.

[FeelHappy]

I think the old stance on homosexuality has more to do with it than just religion, it has to do with a lack of understanding.

 

No doubt religion played a part in it, but I think the bigger thing was just the fact that male homosexuality isn't very common, a very small percentage of men are gay something like less than 5% of the population. So in the 50s and 60s you used to have homosexuality listed as a mental disorder which could be cured with various treatments, and it had a schizophrenic type of stigma to it. I mean have you ever watched an old documentary on homosexuality where the gay man was portrayed as a deviant maniac. Obviously this stereotyping can cause some real hate towards the subject, you can watch videos of Jews being portrayed as rats in Nazi Germany to see some other similar propaganda.

 

So what changed? Some of it was the gay rights movement, but frankly I think it was mainstream TV shows, I remember when I was younger having a gay person on a TV show was very taboo and caused lots of people to shun tv networks which had them. Slowly they've become more and more common where one can watch something such as Modern Family without even blinking an eye at the gay couple. This is coupled with the fact that we know much more about Homosexuality than we did 50 years ago, very few people think its a mental disorder anymore. This understanding along with being more exposed to it has caused people to back away from their anti-homosexual stances a little more and with the next generation it will be even further lessened. Furthermore with more gay people having the courage to come out, you also now have many families who have to deal with gay sons, nephews, ect and this fact often causes understanding.

 

Anyways this tolerance for gays is causing the religious right to take a more visual stance, although for many people this is actually making the religious right look worse than the gay community. I look forward to the day when this is look at like we looked at the civil rights movement and we ask ourselves, what took so long.

[Guest end3]

To Legion's statement.....the reason I value spelling is it promotes better communication. I believe it to be disrespectful to some degree. On the other hand, the shit side of me.....I work with laborers that won't understand a from b from c regardless of the best communication effort. And I start to dislike them because the pressure is on mid-management to utilize the latter without any errors......'cause they is cheap to hire.

 

The uppper management probably thinks the same of me.

 

Now, back to topic.

[Legion]

That's me. I'm insane. I'm troubled. I'm ya-ya. Mental. Unhinged. Wacky. Odd. Kooky. A few fries short of a Happy Meal. Looney. Maniacal. Nuts. Bugged out. Screwy. An olive short of a pizza. Hysterical. Beserk. Certifiable. Haywire. Flipped. Not firing on all cylinders. Zany. A quack. Unbalanced. Aberrant. Cuckoo. Not playing with a full deck. Psycho. Bananas.

 

But you know? I rarely get bored.

[mcdaddy]

I move that since gay bashing is uncoothe anymore, we start hatin' on the insane like Leeg. We can even call it a mental diso....... What?

 

Oh. That's right.

 

[Spectrox]

Why was homosexuality so agregious? Why was being black so agregious? Why was women voting so agregious? It wasn't agregious at all. It was just hate and people accepted it or were condemned. It was manipulation. People are getting tired of having to hide who they are and are fighting for basic civil rights. Assholes like to control other people, so we have crap like the Defense of Marriage Act and these bible belt states passing laws to keep gays from marrying.

 

Yes, and this is my question. What specifics are argued today regarding why gays marrying would be detrimental to "the norm". Guess I should do some research rather than burdening.

 

Some people don't like change. Even though the changing moral zeitgeist says differently. And I think it's a good thing that a lot of people aren't supporters of bigotry and believe that if it's consenting adults involved then what right does anyone else have to tell people how they should love each other?

 

Why is homesexuality still perceived as being wrong by some people irrespective of the Bible?

 

To get a handle on the consequences of a particular behaviour is to amplify it and imagine the consequences if everybody engaged in said behaviour. So stealing becomes very wrong because if everyone stole from each other we would have total chaos and misery.

The only thing theoretically "wrong" with homosexuality is if everyone was gay the human race would eventually die out. But that wouldn't happen because we have sperm banks and turkey basting. Also the world population is now so colossal that the "go forth and multiply" thing just isn't needed any more.

 

There's more to sex than procreation. What if someone is firing blanks - are they not allowed to enjoy their sex life because they couldn't possibly conceive?

 

Every gay person I have met knew from an early age that being gay was what they were. They didn't choose it or any other such crap. It was part of who they were.

 

Most biblical christians I have met think that being gay is not a sin but practising it is. So God has given someone a gift that they're not allowed to use! God would be great around birthdays and Xmas time...

[Guest end3]

I move that since gay bashing is uncoothe anymore, we start hatin' on the insane like Leeg. We can even call it a mental diso....... What?

 

Oh. That's right.

 

 

I battle angst myself on a regular basis. It sucks wholeheartedly.....and is relentless. If he is whacky, which we know anyone is from North Carolina, then I will still offer him beer and bar b que if he should decide to travel across our great state.

 

So, back to the conversation. At this point in my life, I don't really care. My wife has a two counsins from one family that are both gay. They and their partners are both regular people and funny at that. I enjoy their company when they visit. With that said, pda's of the same sex, male, make me uneasy. Females are different....just being honest.

My impression of the issue is that a + a = 2a and b + b = 2b, but a + b = a + b which is unique in this regard.....not that that is a huge issue, just that it is unique. What my wife brings to our relationship is grief.....oops, I mean fulfilling to my obvious lacking.....and vice versa of course.

 

That's it folks, my take now until I go learn the right wing stance. Thanks for the participation.

[lunaticheathen]

The thing about the shit that webcammed the gay man, was that even without it being a hate crime, it was ILLEGAL. You can't film someone in their own bed without their consent, no matter what they're doing. Doesn't matter who they are, you just can't do that. He would have rightfully been in jail if he had done that to anyone and been caught.

 

Making it a hate crime is simply because it was very clear from his behavior that he was treating another human being like a freakshow and being a right asshole about it. Making an example that it is indeed WRONG to treat a human being like a circus animal.

 

It's wrong now because society is evolving, and more people realize that letting people be who they are doesn't necessarily hurt anyone (and no examples of psychopaths, it's not the same, you know it, stfu). I didn't destroy the education system by being a woman that went to college, and no one caught jungle diseases by racially integrating water fountains. In ten year's time, we, as a country, will be ashamed that anyone blocked homosexuals being treated like people, because some kid might "catch the gay." Just as most people are rightfully ashamed that society denied rights to other humans just because they had a different skin color, or have a vagina.

[Guest Babylonian Dream]

why was homosexuality so agregious that they made laws against it in the first place.

The Bible says that its an abomination to God. To be honest, prior to the spread of the Abrahamic faiths, there really wasn't often a problem with homosexuality. The problem comes from the Bible. No clue why ancient Judea had a problem with it. Though I'll bet it had something to do with the demonization of a certain Goddess/God who was associated with it. Also, being a small desert country, there's an arguement to be had that they wanted men and women to be together only, because otherwise they'd fear they'd have population issues. I don't know though.

 

Outside of that, I know that it was commonplace for homosexual men to be made to marry women, to carry on their family and their inheritance. It was seen as shameful to be the bottom, but that was only because it was considered unmanly.

[TheBluegrassSkeptic]

Personally, I think hating on same sex couples started as a political move back in the day to help ensure increased wealth for families. Kinda hard to do that if it were two men or women because they can't reproduce an heir. Somehow, it turned into something abominable. Nowadays though, i really don't see the issue. I can go to a doc and get a gender reassignment and be male if I wanted. If they are willing to allow someone to legally change genders and marry, why in the hell do they have issue with same sex unions? Oh, it's that word...m a r r i a g e. I say, only use that word in regards to the RITUAL, but legally, it should be called a civil union. Go have your marriage at any church you please, but legally, it is called a civil union from now on.

 

Ultimately, beliefs sets and religion has screwed over the same sex crowd. That is the ONLY argument out there against it. Time to bury it.

[London]

C'mon. You and I know that you know the answer.

 

Where's the fucking redflag emoticon?

 

Who the hell are you? Just who the fuck do you think you are to assert that you know what someone else knows? As if you had direct access to their thoughts.

 

Yeah man, you just popped up on my radar big time.

Are you going to spank me? Send me to my room?

 

No, of course not. But I'll tell you what I CAN do. I can make your time here miserable. I will hound you like none other.

 

Don't be so jumpy. Try asking me to clarify if you don't agree or understand before you start waving your red flag around like a bad ass.

 

Please don't tell me what to do or what to be. I'm not telling you what to do. You think this little cutsie act you play flies with me? Guess again. I'm telling it to you straight. I'm watching you buddy. And IF I see you pull that "I know you know" bullshit again, I'm going to be on you like stink on shit.

Ego, most definitely. No one has yet rid themselves of ego, nor will they.

 

I don't want you to be frightened. I want you to be aware of the consequences of your actions. Let me give it to you one more time. This is called a conditional statement. It's an antecedent followed by a consequent.

 

IF I see you pull that "I know that you know" stuff again, THEN I will be on you like white on rice.

 

I feel very passionately about this. This is an indicator to me of someone who routinely tresspasses upon other people.

 

DUDE!!! You seriously need to contact a mental health professional. TODAY! Not tomorrow, or later or next month, but...

 

TODAY!!

 

Because your random trolling and this over the top reaction to someone who was not even being an ass (like you) is just stupid.

 

WTF Legion. Get a fucking grip already.

 

Clearly you are not here to CONTRIBUTE to this, or any other thread.

 

Your trolling and bullshit is clearly getting on many people's nerves.

 

"stink on shit", "white on rice" Seriously?

 

Perhaps YOU are being watched? Did you ever consider THAT fact? Watched like the Sun on Mercury. And my friend, it's a long hot day on Mercury.

 

**end transmission**

[London]

Traditionally in my research the Abrahamic religions have been the only ones that have a huge cross to bare against gays. I have yet to see why that is. What the origin of it was. If you go and read the literal translation of Hebrew, you will see that meanings were changed over time. And it is a fact that "homosexuality" as a word never existed. Nor was there a word for it. The closest you will come is "Eunich" which was a catch all term.

 

The real answer as to why xianity is against it comes from the reason xianity started in the first place. If you can find the real reason the religion was invented or perpetuated, you have found the answer to why humanity has been terrorised for 2000 years.

 

Clearly what I have witnessed in my studies is power. xianity has a lot of power, and previously in history it had massive power. It has stolen everything it could from other religions and added some new things just to look original. That's how you create a new religion and base it on your personal agenda. Steal enough to get converts but put all the things you believe in so you have ultimate power. Sounds like a... ... ... CULT!

 

So historically gays played many roles in different societies, but in the abrahamic societies we apparently were to be left out. At least at some point we were edited out and had words changed so that there was more control for whatever reason.

 

People today are more accepting for two reasons. 1) Humanity has evolved. That's what we actually do as animals. We adapt to new conditions to survive and continue to be a part of Earth's population. We have used our brains, experience, logic and emotions to understand yesterday, today and hopefully tomorrow. We don't live in the conditions they did in 150 CE. We also have time to study our world better and understand it. They only had time to hunt for food and defend their families back then. Well not quite but you get the idea.

 

2) The gay community has worked very hard to educate the world. And the ONE major obstacle has been religion. They are always there like some internet troll spouting off their shit and being disruptive. Religion never shuts up. It vomits the same crap over and over. "Love the sinner but hate the sin", has got to be the best hate speech ever. And you can use it against anyone you want, not just gays. The gay community, just by the simple action of being out of the closet, has done the most for change. Be respectful of yourself and others will follow.

 

We have been accused of everything you can imagine. My favorite are earthquakes. LOL on that one. And I'm sure preacher Bob wants me to make his earth move. But xians always claim anything they can. Apparently gays will get to legally marry and that will destroy straight marriage and the family unit. But with a 50% divorce rate (when it's a marriage for life, lol), spouses cheating on each other, single parents, children who suffer physical and emotional abuse as well as rape, not to mention spousal abuse. Tell me what exactly is gonna happen when gays get the legal right to marry? What could be so bad, that is not happening now, that will happen in the future? Will people start skinning each other alive on a weekly basis?

 

People don't like to feel uncomfortable, as was mentioned earlier in this thread. The unknown is uncomfortable. But when you are around anyone that makes you uncomfortable, often enough, you begin to have a different perspective. You begin to see the humanity in that other person. We are all humans, that is the basic message. I like men. I love men. That is my normal life. I don't spend 100% of my time chasing after men. I have a life. And too many straight men are under the delusion that ALL gay men are after them. So untrue. I personally only go after gay men. Straight and bi men are not on my radar. Why? Because only a gay man really understands a gay man. And when you want to be loved back in a long term relationship, only a gay man will be there. It's not about sex, it's about a relationship with someone who actually wants to be with you and love you.

 

This is what xians will never understand. It's about love. We don't "own" our spouses, we love them.

 

Gays do everything that straights do, except we do it with the same gender. That is the only difference.

 

Oh wait, I forgot, we also control earthquakes.

[Xerces]

C'mon. You and I know that you know the answer.

 

Where's the fucking redflag emoticon?

 

Who the hell are you? Just who the fuck do you think you are to assert that you know what someone else knows? As if you had direct access to their thoughts.

 

Yeah man, you just popped up on my radar big time.

 

[Xerces]

Mcdaddy, I may have overreacted a little bit. I'm on edge for a variety of reasons.

 

Well you said multiple times you wanted to get on him. Maybe you're looking for some love only another man can give. Just a thought. Amiright?

[mcdaddy]

I had that pic too. Man I should have used it!! Haha. It's ok, me and Leeg kissed and made up. He tried to slip me the tongue though.

[Chikirin]

the shift is that everyone now has a video camera in their pocket. Surveillance cameras used to be expensive, now anyone can buy one and set it up. We are Big Brothering each other.

[ConureDelSol]

Can we stop trolling Legion for trolling now? It's like every time he apologizes and the whole argument is basically over, suddenly someone has to dig it back up and gang up on him. If you're all really concerned about his mental instability you'd PM him instead of regurgitating his mistakes for the world to see.

 

Rant over.

 

I would like to point out that the kid with the camera isn't being punished for someone else's suicide, he's being punished for violating the basic human right to privacy. He hasn't been charged with murder or manslaughter.

 

Also, aside from the issue of needing heirs and farm hands in the past, another concern that homosexuality brought was STDs which they really didn't have protection against at the time. So finding out your kid is gay could've been a concern because of hygiene. I'm not saying that regular sex doesn't produce STDs, but people died all the time in the past for unknown reasons some of which may have been caused by STDs. If there was something unusual about the deceased's lifestyle, it would be easy for people to blame the death on that versus someone who lives a relatively normal lifestyle who dies.

 

In the end though, I think the anti-gay attitude of the past chalks up to fear and lack of knowledge.

[Mike D]

Interestingly, as gay people have become more accepted by society, pedophilia has become more vilified by society, with tougher laws and prison sentences than ever before.

 

Even as recent as the late 1890's in the US, it was legal for sexual relations with children as young at 10, or even 7 years old in one state. By contrast, the crime of "buggery" between two adult men was a felony in the US until the 1960's, and at one time was punishable by death in the original 13 colonies.

 

The point being that homosexuals are NOT the cause of some fictional "moral decay" in America as some Christians would like us to believe. What's so moral about allowing the rape of 10 year old kids as our "Christian" forefathers prescribed? Nothing, that's why the trends of our laws over the last 100 years reflect otherwise.

 

Speaking of stupid laws, at one time blasphemy was a crime in the US. This was surely based on the Biblical law that blasphemers were to be violently murdered when they were heard cursing the Lard! Praise Jebus, death to atheists!!

[bornagainathiest]

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[bornagainathiest]

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