OrdinaryClay Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 What about rainforest indians who never heard of christ or the natives on islands etc? If god was real every human would have heard of him. There would be one bible in one language and we all would understand it the same. This is a cult written by humans, stolen and retold from many cultures, with little original content. Just like hollywood movies today. How many times can we rehash the same plot or remake the same movie, UGH! Your reasoning is shallow. First, just because something is real does not mean everyone will believe it, obvioulsy (examples abound). Second, this must imply you are injecting a hidden premise into your reasoning. Assuming you conform to the typical atheist thought mold your hidden premise would be that God would force us all to believe. Which defies free will. "There is enough light for those who only desire to see and enough darkness for those with a contrary disposition." Blaise Pascal Seriously? MY reasoning is shallow. I'm not the one involved in a 2000 year old cult. If you read any of my posts on this website you would see that I am not someone who believes that "god forces humans to believe". What I wrote above in blue would be a very good reason for people to believe in that god. But the facts are, there are 38,000 denominations of xianity, not ONE. If there was ONE it would make more sense. There are over 250 versions of the bible in English alone. One language but 250 different versions. Looks like a cult to me. What author do you know that has published over 250 versions of ONE book in the same language? NO ONE. Because it's a cult made up by man. Re-read the bold part. If god was everywhere and in everything, we would feel the presence of god, every human would feel it, no exceptions. The reality is that no one feels it. It does not exist. Who told you He was "in everything"? He is a distinct spiritual being. Were you a Christian? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaiser01 Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 If god was everywhere and in everything, we would feel the presence of god, every human would feel it, no exceptions. The reality is that no one feels it. It does not exist. Who told you He was "in everything"? He is a distinct spiritual being. Were you a Christian? Actually he is distinct from the universe but not separate from it, this is the main premise of theism which i suspect you understand. The bible itself claims that not only does God create the universe he also sustains it. This is a mighty job to take when you take into account all the needs to be maintained. If God existed and intervened to mainrtain our world then we should be able to detect it, or if he is embedded in all things as london suggest then we should be able to feel and know his presence always and at all times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdinaryClay Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 antixianxian You seem to have created a matrix of belief, just as the hoards of others have done, in order to accomodate its one member...YOU. And everyone else. I am just asking question or making statements and trying not be rude. Questions are good, that's how we learn and get answers. Asking too many questions can also force you to stop believing in god/jesus/yahweh/etc. It didn't for me. The more I asked the stronger my faith became. I asked in every avenue. I'm absolutely and unequivocally convinced that: 1) The God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob is the Creator of the universe and the one true God. 2) Jesus of Nazareth is The Messiah and Son of the Living God. 3) There is an afterlife in which we will all come face to face with our Creator and face Him naked and with out the aid of your internet buddies. (Heb 10:31) It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God. 1:)How do you prove that Yahweh is the one true God? And the creator of the universe. Dont use the Kalam argument bullshit because i will already tell you it wont get you very far. 2:) Ok so how do you explain historical discrepinsies like the sanhedrin meting on Passover to deal with a prisoner. 3:)How do you prove to me there is an after life? 1) It's not my job to "prove" anything to you. I'm sorry but we are all responsible for our own faith. The Kalam is a wonderful piece of evidence though (among many). 2) Please make your case. I'll listen and respond. 3) See 1. Though we will all find out the answer to this one sooner or later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
London Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 What about rainforest indians who never heard of christ or the natives on islands etc? If god was real every human would have heard of him. There would be one bible in one language and we all would understand it the same. This is a cult written by humans, stolen and retold from many cultures, with little original content. Just like hollywood movies today. How many times can we rehash the same plot or remake the same movie, UGH! Your reasoning is shallow. First, just because something is real does not mean everyone will believe it, obvioulsy (examples abound). Second, this must imply you are injecting a hidden premise into your reasoning. Assuming you conform to the typical atheist thought mold your hidden premise would be that God would force us all to believe. Which defies free will. "There is enough light for those who only desire to see and enough darkness for those with a contrary disposition." Blaise Pascal Seriously? MY reasoning is shallow. I'm not the one involved in a 2000 year old cult. If you read any of my posts on this website you would see that I am not someone who believes that "god forces humans to believe". What I wrote above in blue would be a very good reason for people to believe in that god. But the facts are, there are 38,000 denominations of xianity, not ONE. If there was ONE it would make more sense. There are over 250 versions of the bible in English alone. One language but 250 different versions. Looks like a cult to me. What author do you know that has published over 250 versions of ONE book in the same language? NO ONE. Because it's a cult made up by man. Re-read the bold part. If god was everywhere and in everything, we would feel the presence of god, every human would feel it, no exceptions. The reality is that no one feels it. It does not exist. Who told you He was "in everything"? He is a distinct spiritual being. Were you a Christian? The BOLD part is your passive-agressive way of saying that (in your opinion) god is real and some people don't believe it. I got your meaning there. I didn't just shuttle in from Mars. Yes I was a xian and I was taught that he is a part of everything, he is in everything and he is everywhere all of the time. Because... <drumroll> he is god. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdinaryClay Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 If god was everywhere and in everything, we would feel the presence of god, every human would feel it, no exceptions. The reality is that no one feels it. It does not exist. Who told you He was "in everything"? He is a distinct spiritual being. Were you a Christian? Actually he is distinct from the universe but not separate from it, this is the main premise of theism which i suspect you understand. The bible itself claims that not only does God create the universe he also sustains it. This is a mighty job to take when you take into account all the needs to be maintained. If God existed and intervened to mainrtain our world then we should be able to detect it, or if he is embedded in all things as london suggest then we should be able to feel and know his presence always and at all times. When you make Biblical claims you should quote the verse you are using to make your case. We can and do detect God. Many, many very intelligent people understand this. Just because many, many equally intelligent people claim it is not the case does not make your statement fact. It makes it opinion. God is not "embedded in all things". What ever that means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdinaryClay Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 What about rainforest indians who never heard of christ or the natives on islands etc? If god was real every human would have heard of him. There would be one bible in one language and we all would understand it the same. This is a cult written by humans, stolen and retold from many cultures, with little original content. Just like hollywood movies today. How many times can we rehash the same plot or remake the same movie, UGH! Your reasoning is shallow. First, just because something is real does not mean everyone will believe it, obvioulsy (examples abound). Second, this must imply you are injecting a hidden premise into your reasoning. Assuming you conform to the typical atheist thought mold your hidden premise would be that God would force us all to believe. Which defies free will. "There is enough light for those who only desire to see and enough darkness for those with a contrary disposition." Blaise Pascal Seriously? MY reasoning is shallow. I'm not the one involved in a 2000 year old cult. If you read any of my posts on this website you would see that I am not someone who believes that "god forces humans to believe". What I wrote above in blue would be a very good reason for people to believe in that god. But the facts are, there are 38,000 denominations of xianity, not ONE. If there was ONE it would make more sense. There are over 250 versions of the bible in English alone. One language but 250 different versions. Looks like a cult to me. What author do you know that has published over 250 versions of ONE book in the same language? NO ONE. Because it's a cult made up by man. Re-read the bold part. If god was everywhere and in everything, we would feel the presence of god, every human would feel it, no exceptions. The reality is that no one feels it. It does not exist. Who told you He was "in everything"? He is a distinct spiritual being. Were you a Christian? The BOLD part is your passive-agressive way of saying that (in your opinion) god is real and some people don't believe it. I got your meaning there. I didn't just shuttle in from Mars. Yes I was a xian and I was taught that he is a part of everything, he is in everything and he is everywhere all of the time. Because... <drumroll> he is god. So you are saying in your opinion God is not real and some peole believe He is? The Bible does not teach God is in everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
London Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 So you are saying in your opinion God is not real and some peole believe He is? The Bible does not teach God is in everything. In my experience there is no abrahamic god. The proof will be on 7-4-2012, I asked for world peace. I did not claim that the bible says god is in everything, the church claimed that. I don't believe the bible or the church to be correct or an authority on it. The fact remains that god is not anywhere to be found, this god is clearly absent from everything. The void in space has a more tangible existence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaiser01 Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 antixianxian You seem to have created a matrix of belief, just as the hoards of others have done, in order to accomodate its one member...YOU. And everyone else. I am just asking question or making statements and trying not be rude. Questions are good, that's how we learn and get answers. Asking too many questions can also force you to stop believing in god/jesus/yahweh/etc. It didn't for me. The more I asked the stronger my faith became. I asked in every avenue. I'm absolutely and unequivocally convinced that: 1) The God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob is the Creator of the universe and the one true God. 2) Jesus of Nazareth is The Messiah and Son of the Living God. 3) There is an afterlife in which we will all come face to face with our Creator and face Him naked and with out the aid of your internet buddies. (Heb 10:31) It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God. 1:)How do you prove that Yahweh is the one true God? And the creator of the universe. Dont use the Kalam argument bullshit because i will already tell you it wont get you very far. 2:) Ok so how do you explain historical discrepinsies like the sanhedrin meting on Passover to deal with a prisoner. 3:)How do you prove to me there is an after life? 1) It's not my job to "prove" anything to you. I'm sorry but we are all responsible for our own faith. The Kalam is a wonderful piece of evidence though (among many). 2) Please make your case. I'll listen and respond. 3) See 1. Though we will all find out the answer to this one sooner or later. 1:) Not your job? Mathew 28:16-20 I believe you have forgotten about the great commission my friend. Secondly the Kalam argument is empty for several reasons. for one you have a crisis of causality where a self existent God is no more satisfying answer than a self existent universe. secondly the Kalam argument makes the mistake that the only answer for the universe is the theistic principle of intervening God not counting the quantum feild as a self existing entity in itself. There is also a problem with balance when it comes to theism. in a quantum fluctuation creation the universe it isnt a choice, its just something that happens, but a theistic God is one who "chooses" to create the universe. This implies unbalance. The reason cause and effect happens in the universe is because the initial big bang unbalanced things. however with a Self existent God that chooses to create the universe there must of been an initial effect to unbalance him, to make him personal. a personal God is not balanced and unbalance takes an effect. And if a theistic God is not unbalanced than he is not a God to begin with. 2:) The Jews were grossly enamored in the law at the time of jesus, the Sabbath of course is the most important day of the week and there are several laws prohibiting any action taking place on the Sabbath. The Sanhedrin met on the sabbath to deal with Jesus, which would make it a historical problem. Jesus to them is not a God, He is not a man of power, he is a criminal to them and they would not violate the law that gives them their status to deal with a prisoner of all things. they would wait. secondly, upon jesus's death it is said that the dead rose from their graves and the veil was split. there is no outside historical record to support this even ever occurring. Pontious pilot and the trial jesus is another where Pilot for some reaosn needs the jews, the people he governs, to make a descision for him. Barabas was a know murderer of romans, pilot would of been put to death himself for letting barabas go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaiser01 Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 If god was everywhere and in everything, we would feel the presence of god, every human would feel it, no exceptions. The reality is that no one feels it. It does not exist. Who told you He was "in everything"? He is a distinct spiritual being. Were you a Christian? Actually he is distinct from the universe but not separate from it, this is the main premise of theism which i suspect you understand. The bible itself claims that not only does God create the universe he also sustains it. This is a mighty job to take when you take into account all the needs to be maintained. If God existed and intervened to mainrtain our world then we should be able to detect it, or if he is embedded in all things as london suggest then we should be able to feel and know his presence always and at all times. When you make Biblical claims you should quote the verse you are using to make your case. We can and do detect God. Many, many very intelligent people understand this. Just because many, many equally intelligent people claim it is not the case does not make your statement fact. It makes it opinion. God is not "embedded in all things". What ever that means. Ok how do we detect God? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Valk0010 Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 Kalam could be used to prove fairies. It also relies on a argument from ignorance. We don't even know enough to know if a cause like that of a god of some description would be necessary, as far as I understand things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaiser01 Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 Theism states that God is intervening in the universe while being apart from it at the same time. Either he influences it or he is simply part of it and part of "beyond" the universe. If he is not one of these two then how is this theism? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Valk0010 Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 The Bible does not teach God is in everything. So what does omnipresence mean to you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaiser01 Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 "'Do not I fill heaven and earth?' declares the Lord" (Jeremiah 23:24). God is said through Christ to be "sustaining all things by his powerful word" so that"in him all things hold together" (Hebrews 1:3; Colossians 1:17 Hmm seems as though i have found the verses which support my premise and londons, why dont you read the book in your profile picture captain? i thought you were christian? http://www.christianity.co.nz/scienc12.htm 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
London Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 Well clearly Clay has decided to sign off. Thanks for your opinion but you really didn't contribute anything here. And I'm sure you probably just gave antixianxian ANOTHER reason to consider leaving the cult. I'll be waiting for that world peace request form your god. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 3. Ok, if Genesis is an allegory and not history, then we never needed a real savior did we? An allegorical one will do nicely, thank you very much. God doesn't incarnate Himself as a human to solve an allegorical problem, does He? 4. What about the sheer wastage of time and material that Theistic Evolution demands? An entire universe that's 13.7 billion years old, just to give a few billion bipeds on one planet a shot at eternal life? There are other problems, many of them. I can't recall any more right now, but if you want a good place to find them and to see YEC's and TE's hammer each other, go to the General Theology area of Christianforums.com. Both sides bring out highly damaging arguments against each other, which, as a long-time lurker on that site, suits me just fine! Thanks, BAA. Your reasoning does not follow, yet you seem to take so much pride in your non-sequitor. The approval of an internet circle of friends will not help us much when we stand before God almighty. (Mar 8:36) "For what does it profit a man to gain the whole world, and forfeit his soul? Even if Genesis were "allegorical" our sinful nature can still be logically (and physically) possible and hence we would still need salvation. Our sinful nature doe snot rest on a literal 7 day creation Oh hi there, Clay! Thanks very much for your damning judgement of me, my reasoning and the company I choose to keep. For your information, I was damned from the moment I rejected Jesus Christ, which happened l-o-n-g before we ever met online. Therefore, anything I do now is pretty much irrelevant, right? An eternity of suffering for this rejection is exactly the same penalty I'd have had if I'd never become a Born-Again Christian. So, whatever I do with my life now (with or without your approval) is a moot point. Everlasting hellfire is my lot. C u there! (Waves. ) I note that your quotation from the gospel of Mark relies upon the existence of man's soul. Perhaps you could cite some (extra-Biblical) evidence for the existence of such an invisible, intangible, inaudible and undetectable 'thing'? Please note that citation of 'things' resembling the human soul or sharing it's qualitites or being an approximation of it are not sufficient. Arguing from a similar 'thing' to the actual 'thing' doesn't fit the specification of my question. Nor does your maintaining by faith the existence of something you can present no evidence for. Bona fide evidence for the existence of man's soul please - or withdraw the allegations of pride and approval-seeking you've levelled at me! As to Genesis, perhaps you'd be good enough to elaborate on what it is that you mean, beyond the two bare sentences you've typed? After all, in the spirit of fairness and justice, if you call my reasoning into question, shouldn't you give me the option of calling yours into question too? I'm looking forward to your reply. Thanks, BAA. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 2. If God guided Evolution to bring about the emergence of Homo Sapiens, where was the dividing line between animals (who have no souls) and the first Man and Woman who did have these invisible things? Were Austraolpithecines animals or humans? What about Cromagnon man? Did he qualify? Once again, it's all up in the air. Catholics are forced to insert the magic moment when God conferred souls on two lucky hominids somewhere in the last 2 million years. Kinda convenient that there's no possible way of knowing when, doncha think? The answers to any and all of these questions make no difference to the Christian faith. They are red herrings of comfort for those who want to bolster their unbelief with a facade of credibility. Say why the answers to these quesions make no difference, Clay. Say why they are red herrings, Clay. Please demonstrate your reasoning in full detail. The souls of waverers and lurkers looking in on this thread are in the balance here. You could make the difference. Thanks, BAA. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 antixianxian You seem to have created a matrix of belief, just as the hoards of others have done, in order to accomodate its one member...YOU. And everyone else. I am just asking question or making statements and trying not be rude. Everyone else Antixianxian? Does that include my unnamed sister, whom my mom miscarried at three months, years before I was born? What happens to her? BAA. We don't know, and it matters not whether we know. Nothing in Christianity hinges on whether we know this fact or not. Wonderful! Once again Clay declares the... ---> truth of the matter <--- ...without saying why it is so. Clay, if you can't bring yourself to explain why then why should we pay any credence to your one-liners? BAA. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 Think about it, Antixianxian. I have thought about it deeply and for many, many years. My faith has become stronger and stronger the longer and the more I studied. Clay, what is this claim to us if you're not prepared to put some flesh on the bare bones of your one-line posting? All we have to go on here is your unverifiable claim pertaining to the subjective matter of your faith. Flat-Earther's can make just such a claim. Explain or be ignored. In this forum, if a claimant won't justify their claims, they are treated accordingly. Btw...No, we don't care if this approach seals our damnation. Our playground, our rules. So, are you here to condemn and judge without explanation or will you make good on your many claims? BAA. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 Just for the record Clay, you still have outstanding business with Ficino and Legion. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.ex-christ...h/page__st__620 Posted 09 April 2012 - 07:12 AM OrdinaryClay, on 08 April 2012 - 01:49 PM, said: You are equivocating on the word script. An actualized world was written ahead of time. The choices we have within the circumstances are real and are not forced only foreknown. God knows unerringly, it may seem confusing because we can not fathom a mind that has complete foreknowledge . Ficino replied... OC, would you puleeze: 1. drop "forced" from your argument? It brings in too many experiential connotations, because usually when someone is forced, the person is aware of pressure. Awareness of God's prior causative action is not a topic in this discussion. So can we stick with some word more neutral, like "determined"? 2. When we try to construct philosophical arguments that lay a lot of weight on terms that we acknowledge are unknowable by us, we run huge danger of dealing in pseudo-questions. Centauri was right to raise the analogy to arguments about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. I'll throw in the medieval argument, could the second person of the Trinity have been incarnated as a cucumber? Your recourse to the notion of God's omniscience, and of its being unfathomable to us, should be a RED FLAG that this whole topic is not a philosophical topic. I call the aforesaid notion a "floating variable." Maybe there's already a term of art for such notions. Since that notion does not have a determinate value, arguments that make use of it run the risk of being unfalsifiable. You've already shown how the Molinist (incl. you) gives himself/herself permission to take many words in scripture not in their ordinary sense. If the value of προορίζω in an argument is not "mark out beforehand" but only "know beforehand," then we can't really go on. As they say where I come from, "OC, listen to yourself!" Ordinary Clay has yet to respond to Ficino's above message. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Legion wrote... Posted 01 April 2012 - 06:05 PM I strongly suspect that the Big Bang is Buku Bullshit. Ordinary Clay replied... Posted 01 April 2012 - 10:00 PM He said in the video that there are no working cosmologists who don't agree the universe started in a singularity. The big bang is not an explosion. It is an expansion of space-time itself from a singularity. Legion wrote to OrdinaryClay... Posted 01 April 2012 - 10:02 PM Please explain time to me. Ordinary Clay replied... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time Legion replied... Posted 01 April 2012 - 10:08 PM No, that is unacceptable to me. You say, with an air of certain authority... "The big bang is not an explosion. It is an expansion of space-time itself from a singularity." I assume then that you claim understanding of time. Please explain YOUR understanding of time to me. Legion is still waiting for Ordinary Clay's own understanding of time... 2 months on! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Isn't it about time you cleared your 'In' tray? BAA. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centauri Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 I believe you are on your way to deconverting my friend. you are a nice christian who just can't believe that god would put such a nice person as myself in hell. That was the beginning for me too. According to the bible anti, (the book you believe in) I AM going to hell to burn for all eternity......... (Pro 21:2) Every man's way is right in his own eyes, But the LORD weighs the hearts. All who consciously and willfully reject Christ you will go to hell. That's Christian mythology. The Hebrew deity of the Bible doesn't play by those rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centauri Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 ... I'm absolutely and unequivocally convinced that: 1) The God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob is the Creator of the universe and the one true God. The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob wasn't Jesus. 2) Jesus of Nazareth is The Messiah and Son of the Living God. In order to be a valid king messiah, Jesus would have had the proper pedigree, been physically anointed by a prophet /priest, actually sat on the throne, led people into great compliance with the law, and ushered in an era of peace and prosperity. Jesus didn't meet any of these requirements. (Heb 10:31) It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God. If that's true then Christians should be terrified. They thumb their nose at Yahweh and follow a false god and messiah. That's exactly what the Hebrew deity told people not to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 I believe you are on your way to deconverting my friend. you are a nice christian who just can't believe that god would put such a nice person as myself in hell. That was the beginning for me too. According to the bible anti, (the book you believe in) I AM going to hell to burn for all eternity......... (Pro 21:2) Every man's way is right in his own eyes, But the LORD weighs the hearts. All who consciously and willfully reject Christ you will go to hell. And everyone who consciously and willfully reject Ahura Mazda will go to Zoroastrian Hell (which is a lot worse, it's the worst of the worst, Christian Hell is a walk in the park eating an ice cream and watching birds in the pond compared to the Zoroastrian Hell. Sorry dude, you're screwed.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 Read Acts. Read books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 You apparently did not search very hard. Maybe you did not want an answer. And you apparently did not try very hard to use your brain. Maybe you didn't want the truth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 Your reasoning does not follow, yet you seem to take so much pride in your non-sequitor. And ad hominem is better? The approval of an internet circle of friends will not help us much when we stand before God almighty. But the approval of your church club will? Even if Genesis were "allegorical" our sinful nature can still be logically (and physically) possible and hence we would still need salvation. Our sinful nature doe snot rest on a literal 7 day creation I'm sure you have doe snot. Why it has to rest 7 days is beyond me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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