centauri Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 The souls of waverers and lurkers looking in on this thread are in the balance here. You could make the difference. Attention lurkers: For the record, and as BAA pointed out in another post, some of Clay's unfinished business dates back 3 months ago in the Lion's Den thread "Repenting After Death". Christian claims about free wiil, salvation, Jesus being a messiah, the nature of evil, and several other issues were all covered in extensive detail back then. This is a fairly common Christian approach, where the same refuted claims will be put forth again and again, using the element of time (weeks or months) to recycle them. In that way, all the past analysis is forgotten or unseen and the poster can start the same routine all over again. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcdaddy Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 I believe you are on your way to deconverting my friend. you are a nice christian who just can't believe that god would put such a nice person as myself in hell. That was the beginning for me too. According to the bible anti, (the book you believe in) I AM going to hell to burn for all eternity......... (Pro 21:2) Every man's way is right in his own eyes, But the LORD weighs the hearts. All who consciously and willfully reject Christ you will go to hell. Fuck off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcdaddy Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 Read Acts. Read books. NICE ONE! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SusanStoHeli Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 I thought this was a discussion of behavior that both us and many Christians agree is annoying Christian behavior.... not an exhibition piece.... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antix Posted July 2, 2012 Author Share Posted July 2, 2012 I thought this was a discussion of behavior that both us and many Christians agree is annoying Christian behavior.... not an exhibition piece.... Like Mcdaddy said where is the fruit? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 where is the fruit? Fuck the fruit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spectrox Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 2. If God guided Evolution to bring about the emergence of Homo Sapiens, where was the dividing line between animals (who have no souls) and the first Man and Woman who did have these invisible things? Were Austraolpithecines animals or humans? What about Cromagnon man? Did he qualify? Once again, it's all up in the air. Catholics are forced to insert the magic moment when God conferred souls on two lucky hominids somewhere in the last 2 million years. Kinda convenient that there's no possible way of knowing when, doncha think? The answers to any and all of these questions make no difference to the Christian faith. They are red herrings of comfort for those who want to bolster their unbelief with a facade of credibility. A facade of credibility??!! Your response is comedy gold. Christianity - "The belief that an ancient Jewish zombie (who was his own father) died for a weekend and then rose from the dead and flew up into the sky all because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat a fruit from a magic tree." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 Q. What do the following sites all have in common? Reasonablefaith.org Commonsenseatheism.com Rationalresponders.com Infidelguy.com Boardreader.com Unexplained-mysteries.com Christianforums.com Skepticforum.com Richarddawkins.net Rationalia.com Sandwichesforsale.blogspot.com A. They've all been 'graced' by someone calling themselves, 'OrdinaryClay'. . . . . Figures. BAA. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paine Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 Fuuuucckkk yoooouuuuu!!!!! Just kidding. I am a guy so i will pass LMAO Hey, keep an open mind- you might enjoy that sort of thing. David and Jonathan sure did. That Saul was such a cock-block. This is cracking me up. Not that you care, but as much as I complain about christians, of the few I do not is the guy who led me to Christ back in college. A total non judgemental guy with a very strong faith. he is now a pastor at a gay friendly church and is gay himself. I started reading the thread, and I gotta stop you right there, friend. That gay friendly thing? Not Christianity. Pauline Liberalism, but not "Christianity" like those KJV'ers practice. See? Too many interpretations of the same old shit so how can any one Christian denomination be right? Oh. That's right....ONE doesn't have to be RIGHT, because they are ALL WRONG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paine Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 where is the fruit? Fuck the fruit. No shit. LOL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 Your reasoning does not follow, yet you seem to take so much pride in your non-sequitor. And ad hominem is better? The approval of an internet circle of friends will not help us much when we stand before God almighty. But the approval of your church club will? Even if Genesis were "allegorical" our sinful nature can still be logically (and physically) possible and hence we would still need salvation. Our sinful nature doe snot rest on a literal 7 day creation I'm sure you have doe snot. Why it has to rest 7 days is beyond me. Please don't be unkind to Clay, Ouroboros! I forgive him for any ad hominem attacks he's made against me. In fact, since I know that he's suffered severe cardiac-related health problems in the not so distant past, I wish him well. I hope that his heart recovers it's full strength and that he lives on... and on and on and on. It's my fervent wish that he becomes the healthiest, longest-living human being to have ever drawn breath. Even though it'll never happen, I earnestly wish that OrdinaryClay lives for thousands, even millions of years. I wish him everlasting mortal life. A life that continues long, long after our Sun has died. Long after the Andromeda galaxy has merged with ours. Long after the last star has ceased to shine and the universe becomes a cold, dark infinite wasteland. L-o-n-g life to you... OC! BAA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcdaddy Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 Q. What do the following sites all have in common? Reasonablefaith.org Commonsenseatheism.com Rationalresponders.com Infidelguy.com Boardreader.com Unexplained-mysteries.com Christianforums.com Skepticforum.com Richarddawkins.net Rationalia.com Sandwichesforsale.blogspot.com A. They've all been 'graced' by someone calling themselves, 'OrdinaryClay'. . . . . Figures. BAA. He's a hero for the faith. PTFL! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaiser01 Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 Q. What do the following sites all have in common? Reasonablefaith.org Commonsenseatheism.com Rationalresponders.com Infidelguy.com Boardreader.com Unexplained-mysteries.com Christianforums.com Skepticforum.com Richarddawkins.net Rationalia.com Sandwichesforsale.blogspot.com A. They've all been 'graced' by someone calling themselves, 'OrdinaryClay'. . . . . Figures. BAA. He's a hero for the faith. PTFL! i wonder if its Nephilumfree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paine Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 I have another question (again, philosophical). Issac Asimov wrote 40 yrs ago, that the reasons german and english speaking peoples have developed so much technology and science is due to their language and the way the brain processes it. Tower of Babel All languages would be the same on the level of thinking, but they are not. You got WAY too far into the BuyBull (thanks macdaddy!) before you asked questions, there buddy. How about THIS one from a book a widdle bit closer to the front cover? WHERE DID CAIN AND ABEL'S WIVES COME FROM? Done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdinaryClay Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 So you are saying in your opinion God is not real and some peole believe He is? The Bible does not teach God is in everything. In my experience there is no abrahamic god. The proof will be on 7-4-2012, I asked for world peace. I did not claim that the bible says god is in everything, the church claimed that. I don't believe the bible or the church to be correct or an authority on it. The fact remains that god is not anywhere to be found, this god is clearly absent from everything. The void in space has a more tangible existence. In my experience God does exist. You seem to have a very shallow notion of proof. The god you claim to beckon is a caricature from hollywood. A small amount of thought makes it clear that God's will is the guiding factor in all answered prayers. It is easy to construct conflicting prayers that God will not answer. God will not answer prayer outside His will. Now praying for peace is a good thing to pray for, and we should all do this, but pretending that because it does not happen is proof God does not exist is ill-conceived. In fact, it is simply the problem of evil re-stated, which has been demonstrated as not logically sound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Valk0010 Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 So you are saying in your opinion God is not real and some peole believe He is? The Bible does not teach God is in everything. In my experience there is no abrahamic god. The proof will be on 7-4-2012, I asked for world peace. I did not claim that the bible says god is in everything, the church claimed that. I don't believe the bible or the church to be correct or an authority on it. The fact remains that god is not anywhere to be found, this god is clearly absent from everything. The void in space has a more tangible existence. In my experience God does exist. You seem to have a very shallow notion of proof. I would say the same for you, judging by the kinds of things you seem to find convincing. The god you claim to beckon is a caricature from hollywood. A small amount of thought makes it clear that God's will is the guiding factor in all answered prayers. It is easy to construct conflicting prayers that God will not answer. God will not answer prayer outside His will. That does make prayer pointless wouldn't you think, beg for 7 years like I did for him to remove OCD about the unforgivable sin and it never happens. Now praying for peace is a good thing to pray for, and we should all do this, but pretending that because it does not happen is proof God does not exist is ill-conceived. In fact, it is simply the problem of evil re-stated, which has been demonstrated as not logically sound. What is your favourite defence, free will? Or how about rewriting omnipotents and omniscience into meaninglessness? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Valk0010 Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 I have a question or two for you Clay? Since you seem to feel like you have the right to judge other people without even asking them about their lives, as not being honest in seeking like you did with vigile or saying that BAA's issues are not even worthy of being considered as reasons to not belive in christianity (without explaining why, annoyingly). What is the best reason you have for belief? And what would be the one thing that would disprove christianity in your eyes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaiser01 Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 So you are saying in your opinion God is not real and some peole believe He is? The Bible does not teach God is in everything. In my experience there is no abrahamic god. The proof will be on 7-4-2012, I asked for world peace. I did not claim that the bible says god is in everything, the church claimed that. I don't believe the bible or the church to be correct or an authority on it. The fact remains that god is not anywhere to be found, this god is clearly absent from everything. The void in space has a more tangible existence. In my experience God does exist. You seem to have a very shallow notion of proof. The god you claim to beckon is a caricature from hollywood. A small amount of thought makes it clear that God's will is the guiding factor in all answered prayers. It is easy to construct conflicting prayers that God will not answer. God will not answer prayer outside His will. Now praying for peace is a good thing to pray for, and we should all do this, but pretending that because it does not happen is proof God does not exist is ill-conceived. In fact, it is simply the problem of evil re-stated, which has been demonstrated as not logically sound. Let us start where we left off. How do you prove Gods existence? Also the bible states God is within everything, so we should be able to detect him. Or we should be able to detect him hen he intervenes in the universe. Either way we cant do either so im wondering what your theory is on how we know God is there. I would like to hear somthing that is not Irreducable complexity either, or classical apologetic s which is scientifically iliterate. "'Do not I fill heaven and earth?' declares the Lord" (Jeremiah 23:24). God is said through Christ to be]"sustaining all things by his powerful word"] so that"in him all things hold together" (Hebrews 1:3; Colossians 1:17 http://www.christian...nz/scienc12.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdinaryClay Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 antixianxian You seem to have created a matrix of belief, just as the hoards of others have done, in order to accomodate its one member...YOU. And everyone else. I am just asking question or making statements and trying not be rude. Questions are good, that's how we learn and get answers. Asking too many questions can also force you to stop believing in god/jesus/yahweh/etc. It didn't for me. The more I asked the stronger my faith became. I asked in every avenue. I'm absolutely and unequivocally convinced that: 1) The God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob is the Creator of the universe and the one true God. 2) Jesus of Nazareth is The Messiah and Son of the Living God. 3) There is an afterlife in which we will all come face to face with our Creator and face Him naked and with out the aid of your internet buddies. (Heb 10:31) It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God. 1:)How do you prove that Yahweh is the one true God? And the creator of the universe. Dont use the Kalam argument bullshit because i will already tell you it wont get you very far. 2:) Ok so how do you explain historical discrepinsies like the sanhedrin meting on Passover to deal with a prisoner. 3:)How do you prove to me there is an after life? 1) It's not my job to "prove" anything to you. I'm sorry but we are all responsible for our own faith. The Kalam is a wonderful piece of evidence though (among many). 2) Please make your case. I'll listen and respond. 3) See 1. Though we will all find out the answer to this one sooner or later. 1:) Not your job? Mathew 28:16-20 I believe you have forgotten about the great commission my friend. Secondly the Kalam argument is empty for several reasons. for one you have a crisis of causality where a self existent God is no more satisfying answer than a self existent universe. secondly the Kalam argument makes the mistake that the only answer for the universe is the theistic principle of intervening God not counting the quantum feild as a self existing entity in itself. There is also a problem with balance when it comes to theism. in a quantum fluctuation creation the universe it isnt a choice, its just something that happens, but a theistic God is one who "chooses" to create the universe. This implies unbalance. The reason cause and effect happens in the universe is because the initial big bang unbalanced things. however with a Self existent God that chooses to create the universe there must of been an initial effect to unbalance him, to make him personal. a personal God is not balanced and unbalance takes an effect. And if a theistic God is not unbalanced than he is not a God to begin with. 2:) The Jews were grossly enamored in the law at the time of jesus, the Sabbath of course is the most important day of the week and there are several laws prohibiting any action taking place on the Sabbath. The Sanhedrin met on the sabbath to deal with Jesus, which would make it a historical problem. Jesus to them is not a God, He is not a man of power, he is a criminal to them and they would not violate the law that gives them their status to deal with a prisoner of all things. they would wait. secondly, upon jesus's death it is said that the dead rose from their graves and the veil was split. there is no outside historical record to support this even ever occurring. Pontious pilot and the trial jesus is another where Pilot for some reaosn needs the jews, the people he governs, to make a descision for him. Barabas was a know murderer of romans, pilot would of been put to death himself for letting barabas go. 1) The great commission is preaching and proclaiming. One does not preach proofs, and people are not saved through proofs. (Jas 2:19) You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. The kalam argues for an intelligent non-contingent cause. God best fits such a requirement. Ask BAA for a link to the thread he and I discussed such a subject. He should be glad to give it to you. So far the scientific evidence argues against a self-existent universe (quantum field or otherwise). There is speculation sure, but no science yet. For a materialist to believe in a self-existing universe without evidence is akin to believing in magic. A quantum field still requires natural laws. These laws still need an explanation. From a scientific stand point it is a cop-out to pretend that the laws of nature just exist with no explanation. Your balance argument holds no basis in science. It is meta-physics. Now you may choose to place your faith their, but you can not claim it is science in any way. 2) Christ was not crucified on the sabbath, nor were His trials. (Luk 23:53) And he took it down and wrapped it in a linen cloth, and laid Him in a tomb cut into the rock, where no one had ever lain. (Luk 23:54) It was the preparation day, and the Sabbath was about to begin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdinaryClay Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 If god was everywhere and in everything, we would feel the presence of god, every human would feel it, no exceptions. The reality is that no one feels it. It does not exist. Who told you He was "in everything"? He is a distinct spiritual being. Were you a Christian? Actually he is distinct from the universe but not separate from it, this is the main premise of theism which i suspect you understand. The bible itself claims that not only does God create the universe he also sustains it. This is a mighty job to take when you take into account all the needs to be maintained. If God existed and intervened to mainrtain our world then we should be able to detect it, or if he is embedded in all things as london suggest then we should be able to feel and know his presence always and at all times. When you make Biblical claims you should quote the verse you are using to make your case. We can and do detect God. Many, many very intelligent people understand this. Just because many, many equally intelligent people claim it is not the case does not make your statement fact. It makes it opinion. God is not "embedded in all things". What ever that means. Ok how do we detect God? Natural revelation ... Philosophy and science. Special revelation ... history and the supernatural. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdinaryClay Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 Kalam could be used to prove fairies. Please demonstrate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Valk0010 Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 What does one get from Kalam nothing, even if its valid. People like Thomas Paine were deists because they believed the first cause argument was true but Christianity was bankrupt? One can't conceivably say its a proof for theism. Because defining god from that direction is pure speculation. He could be a maltheist for all we know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdinaryClay Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 The Bible does not teach God is in everything. So what does omnipresence mean to you? We can not escape His presence. It does not mean He is "embedded" in everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaiser01 Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 antixianxian You seem to have created a matrix of belief, just as the hoards of others have done, in order to accomodate its one member...YOU. And everyone else. I am just asking question or making statements and trying not be rude. Questions are good, that's how we learn and get answers. Asking too many questions can also force you to stop believing in god/jesus/yahweh/etc. It didn't for me. The more I asked the stronger my faith became. I asked in every avenue. I'm absolutely and unequivocally convinced that: 1) The God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob is the Creator of the universe and the one true God. 2) Jesus of Nazareth is The Messiah and Son of the Living God. 3) There is an afterlife in which we will all come face to face with our Creator and face Him naked and with out the aid of your internet buddies. (Heb 10:31) It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God. 1:)How do you prove that Yahweh is the one true God? And the creator of the universe. Dont use the Kalam argument bullshit because i will already tell you it wont get you very far. 2:) Ok so how do you explain historical discrepinsies like the sanhedrin meting on Passover to deal with a prisoner. 3:)How do you prove to me there is an after life? 1) It's not my job to "prove" anything to you. I'm sorry but we are all responsible for our own faith. The Kalam is a wonderful piece of evidence though (among many). 2) Please make your case. I'll listen and respond. 3) See 1. Though we will all find out the answer to this one sooner or later. 1:) Not your job? Mathew 28:16-20 I believe you have forgotten about the great commission my friend. Secondly the Kalam argument is empty for several reasons. for one you have a crisis of causality where a self existent God is no more satisfying answer than a self existent universe. secondly the Kalam argument makes the mistake that the only answer for the universe is the theistic principle of intervening God not counting the quantum feild as a self existing entity in itself. There is also a problem with balance when it comes to theism. in a quantum fluctuation creation the universe it isnt a choice, its just something that happens, but a theistic God is one who "chooses" to create the universe. This implies unbalance. The reason cause and effect happens in the universe is because the initial big bang unbalanced things. however with a Self existent God that chooses to create the universe there must of been an initial effect to unbalance him, to make him personal. a personal God is not balanced and unbalance takes an effect. And if a theistic God is not unbalanced than he is not a God to begin with. 2:) The Jews were grossly enamored in the law at the time of jesus, the Sabbath of course is the most important day of the week and there are several laws prohibiting any action taking place on the Sabbath. The Sanhedrin met on the sabbath to deal with Jesus, which would make it a historical problem. Jesus to them is not a God, He is not a man of power, he is a criminal to them and they would not violate the law that gives them their status to deal with a prisoner of all things. they would wait. secondly, upon jesus's death it is said that the dead rose from their graves and the veil was split. there is no outside historical record to support this even ever occurring. Pontious pilot and the trial jesus is another where Pilot for some reaosn needs the jews, the people he governs, to make a descision for him. Barabas was a know murderer of romans, pilot would of been put to death himself for letting barabas go. 1) The great commission is preaching and proclaiming. One does not preach proofs, and people are not saved through proofs. (Jas 2:19) You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. The kalam argues for an intelligent non-contingent cause. God best fits such a requirement. Ask BAA for a link to the thread he and I discussed such a subject. He should be glad to give it to you. So far the scientific evidence argues against a self-existent universe (quantum field or otherwise). There is speculation sure, but no science yet. For a materialist to believe in a self-existing universe without evidence is akin to believing in magic. A quantum field still requires natural laws. These laws still need an explanation. From a scientific stand point it is a cop-out to pretend that the laws of nature just exist with no explanation. Your balance argument holds no basis in science. It is meta-physics. Now you may choose to place your faith their, but you can not claim it is science in any way. 2) Christ was not crucified on the sabbath, nor were His trials. (Luk 23:53) And he took it down and wrapped it in a linen cloth, and laid Him in a tomb cut into the rock, where no one had ever lain. (Luk 23:54) It was the preparation day, and the Sabbath was about to begin. For one part of reaching the world would be to convince it, which especially in todays world, is to proof that God exist. You think it is not magic to believe in a self existent God? did you not read what i wrote about a crisis of causality? A universe from nothing is irrational magic however the essence of nothing is not what the universe springs from. The quantum feild is not quite defined by physical laws as we understand them jsut as much as God is not defined by physical laws. Anything that can happen in the quantum field does happen or will happen. It, like God, is self existent. It is simple though. the quantum feild is the most basic energy you can have that is self existent to form a universe. but the theistic God is complex and explaining complexity with complexity is redundant. A theistic God can be what forms the universe, but it fits the picture no better than a quantum field does or the FSM. God is not the best explanation, no more than the quantum feild. so how do we know which is which? well if its YHWH then we should be able to detect it and prove his existence, which we dont. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaiser01 Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 If god was everywhere and in everything, we would feel the presence of god, every human would feel it, no exceptions. The reality is that no one feels it. It does not exist. Who told you He was "in everything"? He is a distinct spiritual being. Were you a Christian? Actually he is distinct from the universe but not separate from it, this is the main premise of theism which i suspect you understand. The bible itself claims that not only does God create the universe he also sustains it. This is a mighty job to take when you take into account all the needs to be maintained. If God existed and intervened to mainrtain our world then we should be able to detect it, or if he is embedded in all things as london suggest then we should be able to feel and know his presence always and at all times. When you make Biblical claims you should quote the verse you are using to make your case. We can and do detect God. Many, many very intelligent people understand this. Just because many, many equally intelligent people claim it is not the case does not make your statement fact. It makes it opinion. God is not "embedded in all things". What ever that means. Ok how do we detect God? Natural revelation ... Philosophy and science. Special revelation ... history and the supernatural. This tells me nothing, elaborate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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