Does God Help The Weary?

[roadrunner]

religion preys on the weak. study after study has shown that people who have been through emotional and physical struggles are more likely to cling to religion. to me thats a no brainer. every other sunday i hear some testimony form someone who's been through something just terrible. while thats sad, for every one of them, there is a person who made it out without religion, or with Allah, or some other supernatural unproven being. just look at maslow's hierarchy of needs. its no secret acceptance of facts is at the top. while I understand this premise is controversial I think its relatively accurate.

[raoul]

while I understand this premise is controversial I think its relatively accurate.

It may be controversial, at least for those still in the cult, but it is definitely the truth almost 100% of the time. Don't they always say something about 'this is what jesus has done for me' or 'tell everyone what god has done in your life' or 'how has god used you today?'. I especially like the last one because it makes their god a pimp and they're merely well you get the drift.

 

Once, while going through one of those many ordeals we all face, my wife and I went to a religious retreat in the mountains. During a lunch, sitting at a table with about a dozen other xtians, one of them looked at me and, trying to start a conversation asked me 'so tell us, what has god done in your life?' My immediate reaction was to say 'he ain't done jack shit' however I refrained. I simply smiled at him and ignored the question as if I hadn't heard it.

[roadrunner]

Don't they always say something about 'this is what jesus has done for me' or 'tell everyone what god has done in your life' or 'how has god used you today?

 

This is one of the things I brought up to my pastor. EVERYTHING that i see happens as a result of natural process or by people. God is nowhere in that. Yet time after time, people do things and say god did it. I think the song "I wanna be your hands, I wanna be your feet. I'll go where you send me...." is the lamest most obvious evidence that he's not there.

 

I heard a pastor say "God uses us....." when talking about how we should act in his will. If he's so powerful he should be able to do everything on his own. He had no problem SPEAKING the cosmos into existence without us yet he needs me take food down the street. Its the silliest thing I ever heard looking back.

[raoul]

Don't they always say something about 'this is what jesus has done for me' or 'tell everyone what god has done in your life' or 'how has god used you today?

 

This is one of the things I brought up to my pastor. EVERYTHING that i see happens as a result of natural process or by people. God is nowhere in that. Yet time after time, people do things and say god did it. I think the song "I wanna be your hands, I wanna be your feet. I'll go where you send me...." is the lamest most obvious evidence that he's not there.

 

I heard a pastor say "God uses us....." when talking about how we should act in his will. If he's so powerful he should be able to do everything on his own. He had no problem SPEAKING the cosmos into existence without us yet he needs me take food down the street. Its the silliest thing I ever heard looking back.

So true! I listen to this guy whom I've been checking out since back in 1988 because I find his decline into delusional insanity, as I call it, a fascinating case study on how they can delude themselves. Anyway, one day a lady called in to say she needed prayer for a job. He never offers any REAL practical advice ie: the natural processes as you'd mentioned. He mostly says 'well let's go before the lord and pray' and then he does just that. So they both prayed and she hung up. Just a short time later she called backed to exclaim 'how wonderful god is. She'd miraculously been given a job almost on the same day they prayed. How great is god' etc.

He gushed about it and even spoke about it the next day trying to show how god answers prayers. A few days later she called back to say 'she was let go' from the job and was seeking de lord (as I put it) for help again. He said nothing about the so-called answered prayer of just a few days earlier. He simply said 'okay, let's go before the lord again and pray'. I guess he couldn't come up with some quick bull shit to explain away the failed prayer request from earlier. But that's the whole thing with them - pure bs based on fantasy and even outright lies all of which is surrounded by a denial of reality.

 

Since I've begun my de-conversion out of that cult I've never felt more self assured and confident about things. No worrying about what a magical santa in the sky is gonna think or do in my life. All that was is a bunch of chains hanging around my neck, sorta like Marley's ghost in Scrooge.

[roadrunner]

Julia sweeney says it the best i've heard. It was the first time that I realized the "my toughts were truly my thoughts". You give so much of yourself to this god figure to realize that your private life is your private life is refreshing and motivating as your integrity is now on the line. I've never been happier

[raoul]

Julia sweeney says it the best i've heard. It was the first time that I realized the "my toughts were truly my thoughts". You give so much of yourself to this god figure to realize that your private life is your private life is refreshing and motivating as your integrity is now on the line. I've never been happier

That is so logically sound as well as beautiful especially where you or she said our integrity is on the line. I think I actually went by this while in and outside of the cult. I would say that 'if I could look into the mirror at night, after a day out in the rat race, and still liked what I saw, then I probably did what was morally and ethically okay for that day. But when you're in the cult, as Sweeney and you note, you're too busy trying to please the god that you forget your unique self in the process.

[roadrunner]

Julia sweeney says it the best i've heard. It was the first time that I realized the "my toughts were truly my thoughts". You give so much of yourself to this god figure to realize that your private life is your private life is refreshing and motivating as your integrity is now on the line. I've never been happier

That is so logically sound as well as beautiful especially where you or she said our integrity is on the line. I think I actually went by this while in and outside of the cult. I would say that 'if I could look into the mirror at night, after a day out in the rat race, and still liked what I saw, then I probably did what was morally and ethically okay for that day. But when you're in the cult, as Sweeney and you note, you're too busy trying to please the god that you forget your unique self in the process.

 

To my knowledge sweeney didnt mention integrity but I personally found it to be the case after deconverting. but certainly Im not the first to do so. I have to be accountable to myself and the idea that I am good only because I thought someone was watching is rather insulting so it serves as motivation.

[TrailBlazer]

If I didn't know any better I would think this came right from an xtian fundamentalist. What positive things did it teach me while I was in their cult? Zilch. They didn't teach me anything I didn't know about already especially in the area of morals.

 

You ask how could you challenge a faith like that? Simple. It's no different than challenging a person who is delusional and acting out his/her delusions in society.

 

Maybe it would help to explain where I'm coming from when I say stuff like this. I majored in psychology and bible with a minor in pastoral counseling for nearly 4 years at a liberal Pentecostal college. The education I received was not about shoving bible and religion down my throat; my professors emphasized compassion and letting go of fundamentalism to just express love for people instead. I am grateful for my experiences there.

 

I learned about compassion, forgiveness, love, and a lot of other things through Christianity. But I also deepened my understanding of these concepts by learning about other religions too. Maybe I wear rose tinted glasses, but just maybe, we will all let go of bitterness and anger one day and live as one. You may say I'm a dreamer....

[Deva]

I don't know. Is living your life based on a lie harmful, even if it does cause you to behave better towards others and gives you hope to keep on going?

 

I am prepared to accept that for some people, Christianity is a positive good. I have seen examples of it. But they are living in a fantasy world. Its price is a selective blindness about whole areas of life. I can't do it myself, I am way too intellectually curious. The price is too high and once you have seen through the lie, nothing remains.

 

The reality is that people have an amazing amount of strength and pull this inspiration to go on from themselves alone and no outside force is involved. It seems like an outside force because Christians have been conditioned to believe in that force, that is all.

[raoul]

I don't know. Is living your life based on a lie harmful, even if it does cause you to behave better towards others and gives you hope to keep on going?

 

I am prepared to accept that for some people, Christianity is a positive good. I have seen examples of it. But they are living in a fantasy world. Its price is a selective blindness about whole areas of life. I can't do it myself, I am way too intellectually curious. The price is too high and once you have seen through the lie, nothing remains.

 

The reality is that people have an amazing amount of strength and pull this inspiration to go on from themselves alone and no outside force is involved. It seems like an outside force because Christians have been conditioned to believe in that force, that is all.

I was going to reply to him but I tend to be somewhat harsh and blunt in replies regarding living in fantasy and denial. However, you did a much better job of voicing what I was thinking but unable to write. Thanks!

I think it comes down to a choice, at least in my view:

a. Accept the truth no matter how harsh and even cruel it may be

or

b. Accept the delusion, at least for others, even though it is nothing more than a bunch of lies.

 

I opt for 'a' at all times.

[Antlerman]

That faith is what ultimately brought us to reality. I think you will be hard pressed to find a gathering of individuals anywhere who have the amount of faith as the members of Ex-C once had. So though I empathize with your friends ever so pressing heart for god it may be that faith that brings her to a new reality outside of religion.

There we go! This is touching on something far deeper than right/wrong variables. I'll put some effort into a response that gets to the heart of what the OP is getting at later on as time permits today or tomorrow. Good insight laying in your post here.

[Antlerman]

Trying to put my thoughts together here a little to offer a different perspective on this. I agree that to kick the legs out from underneath someone when they are in a place of need and dependence is really more about the ego of the person kicking, needing to be right and let all the delusional be converted for their sake, than it is about actually helping someone. Wisdom sees the other person and tries to have empathy, which would mean we have to recognize that we too once believed as they do now. Often times we may look back and say, "Yeah, but I was a fool!". You say that now where you are at, but back then you did not think that way about where you were at. In fact we thought those who didn't think like us then were delusional, the same way many think about Christians now in their new found Truth.

 

In short, are we sure we aren't motivated to be right now, the same way we were we then? That really it isn't a matter of what you believe but how you think, and we dragged that right along with us in changing beliefs? I think it's important to start there in looking at ourselves first before we judge that someone is ready to move on.

 

As far as seeing the value in my past experiences, yes, certainly I am able now to see those. I've worked long and hard to not simply just change religions, "I was wrong, believing a lie, but now I have the Truth!". We don't throw out our childhood in becoming an adult. We negate being a child, but we evolve and include the good lessons we learned as a child into our adulthood. As my dear father said to me over the years, "There is nothing we have done in our lives that we don't use somewhere at sometime". This is very true. We are the sum of our experiences.

 

To say there was nothing whatsoever to that helped us at that point of our growth is to me, screaming of bitterness that hasn't come to term with the loss of relationship. It's like me saying my ex-wife was a complete worthless human being and we never had anything good in our relationship". That's just anger and bitterness now that blinds us to the reality of life for us then, which was not 'wrong', entirely. Rationally, there was good. You wouldn't have married them. We simply have to accept that we were the same person we are now, only younger with the need of that younger person at that time. We joined it for it a reason.

 

 

Now to the comments about faith. This can get really involved were I to go deep with this, as it isn't some simply 'faith is just willful ignorance' sort of thing. I'll say why I agree with what tothemoring said that, "faith is what ultimately brought us to reality," is that what I see faith is is sort of like that 'something' inside us that despite not knowing where we're going, we are willing to break with beliefs, securities, and all manner of structures that society and culture offer us, in order to respond to reach beyond all of them to some higher truth. I would say that all of us exercised a greater faith that the True Believer™ in this regard, who trades growth for security. It is not about what you believe in, but that you continue to seek Truth, that you continue to listen and respond to that 'something' in you that reaches forward and upward like a plant to the sun, breaking through concrete in order to find that Light.

 

So, with that in mind. Listen and look to those in their cocoons, in their wombs, in how they relate to the faith with the symbol of God as some external savior to them, which is in fact the symbol of that faith for them, and encourage them to grow, in whatever way is best for them in where they are at - even if that means to continue to 'think like a child' for the time. Never forget there is always someone ahead of where we are at today as well who sees our thinking as that of a child, or even "delusional" if they should care to be cruel about it. Never assume we now have the Answers with a capital A. That is being a True Believer™, whether that is being a Christian or an Atheist. To be mature requires our own healing. And in that, we can see others where they are at on their path and allow them to grow.

 

This is where I have come to in my healing.

[midniterider]

i don't come from a "christian god" country.

 

Broken people die and survive on reasons/faith that they know how they cope or not. Some people relied on god/gods/karma or some people i know, depended on their own grit and determination.

 

when people are broken, they don't need the truth that hour of need but kindness.

 

i am taught to be kind outweighs being right.

 

cheers

 

I agree.

 

A relative of mine was nearly in tears about the rough time their spouse is having in the hospital. Their conversation was god god and more god. They requested I pray. I said I would. :-) I supppose I could have said, "There is no god you fool!" but that's not compassion. They may or may not change their belief in the future. It isn't up to me to decide their beliefs or how they should live.

[thesadclown]

God doesn't help the weary, Christians just muddle through life as best they can, just like everyone else. They just retroactively attribute any success that comes about to their invisible friend in the sky. Deconverting helped me realize that what I thought was God helping me was was just my own internal monologue pep talk and I would have done it with the same rate of success regardless of my belief in divine beings. I just wasn't capable of realizing the superfluousness of these beliefs until I started functioning without them and saw that they made no difference.

[TrailBlazer]

I guess I have to agree with Antlerman. It's not about you or your beliefs when it comes to trying to help someone else. When a christian person is truly down on their luck, telling them that faith is crap probably borders on unethical. It may be the opportunist in me, but when I see something I can use to help someone, I will. If religion is a source of great comfort and strength for someone, why not use it?

I'm grateful that I learned christian counseling, because I learned how to recognize healthy/unhealthy practices or beliefs, and how to counsel those who've been hurt by churches or christians in the past.

[roadrunner]

...... If religion is a source of great comfort and strength for someone, why not use it?

I would respectfully disagree. I understand that perspective but similarly if I m going though something rough I could snort a line of cocaine or smoke pot. Though it may get me through and I may feel better its certainly not what what's best for me. Reinforcing the idea that someone else is responsible for your misfortunes and triumphs causes all kinds of emotional problems when you live you life based on action -result logic. Job did nothing wrong and look what happened to him. What a sick twisted way to live life praising someone who ruined your life all for a boastful bet unknown to you. That passes coping and goes straight into mental abuse as far as I'm concerned. Just my opinion.

[TrailBlazer]

But religion is not a psychoactive substance, it's a belief system; a way humans have devised for coping with morality and mortality. Throughout the history of humanity, probably more than a billion people have lived and died holding onto a belief system of some kind. Our belief systems, no matter how inaccurately far-fetched they are, help us in some way.

I'm not out to win converts to atheism. I'm also not going to point people toward God or encourage unhealthy practices or beliefs. But arguing against the beliefs of someone you're trying to help is not going to help you help them, it will make them stop talking to you and discredit your advice.

[Antlerman]

But religion is not a psychoactive substance, it's a belief system; a way humans have devised for coping with morality and mortality. Throughout the history of humanity, probably more than a billion people have lived and died holding onto a belief system of some kind. Our belief systems, no matter how inaccurately far-fetched they are, help us in some way.

I'm not out to win converts to atheism. I'm also not going to point people toward God or encourage unhealthy practices or beliefs. But arguing against the beliefs of someone you're trying to help is not going to help you help them, it will make them stop talking to you and discredit your advice.

I have personally found it far more beneficial to acknowledge the importance of someone's beliefs to them, respect that for them, then try to help them by building on that foundation they use and know. Trying to undercut the belief because you're not where they are at seems more about trying to bolster your own current belief. I say get over that already. The fact that we know what it's like to think that way gives us the advantage to help them take what they know and possibly expand it to the next step for them, if they are ready. To just go marching in and declare, "There is no God, you silly sod!", is not about them at all. Saying it's best to clear them of their delusion without any empathy whatsoever is not about them.

 

Again, there is always someone who has a higher understanding than ourselves. So who makes us the one who thinks we now know The Truth™ to be able to just set them straight with it? Didn't we believe we had it then too?

[roadrunner]

But religion is not a psychoactive substance, it's a belief system; a way humans have devised for coping with morality and mortality. Throughout the history of humanity, probably more than a billion people have lived and died holding onto a belief system of some kind. Our belief systems, no matter how inaccurately far-fetched they are, help us in some way.

I'm not out to win converts to atheism. I'm also not going to point people toward God or encourage unhealthy practices or beliefs. But arguing against the beliefs of someone you're trying to help is not going to help you help them, it will make them stop talking to you and discredit your advice.

I have personally found it far more beneficial to acknowledge the importance of someone's beliefs to them, respect that for them, then try to help them by building on that foundation they use and know. Trying to undercut the belief because you're not where they are at seems more about trying to bolster your own current belief. I say get over that already. The fact that we know what it's like to think that way gives us the advantage to help them take what they know and possibly expand it to the next step for them, if they are ready. To just go marching in and declare, "There is no God, you silly sod!", is not about them at all. Saying it's best to clear them of their delusion without any empathy whatsoever is not about them.

 

Again, there is always someone who has a higher understanding than ourselves. So who makes us the one who thinks we now know The Truth to be able to just set them straight with it? Didn't we believe we had it then too?

I agree with u both. There is a time to shut up about there being no god and a time to empathize with a hurt human. And when they are leaning is the worst time to kick the crutch out from under some one. to elaborte on my point the only difference in that coping mechanism and drugs is physical damage vs. Mental damage. Its fine to die ignorant. We all do to some degree but beliefs like every other coping mechanism spill over when they shouldn't. Example is believing you should pray instead of doing something in a life threatening situation. Reinforcing a belief no matter what it is builds trust in that system and the bigger it is the harder it falls. Most people in abusive relationships don't think they are in one. To them the good offsets the bad. I agree that love and all the ashy stuff that comes with religion is good but it does come with a giant tumor attached to it. Guilt fear and every other fictitious attribute that humanity attached to it to make it stick around. Having been religious all my life until recently I couldn't say there was anything more helpful to cope but now I can

[Antlerman]

I agree that love and all the ashy stuff that comes with religion is good but it does come with a giant tumor attached to it. Guilt fear and every other fictitious attribute that humanity attached to it to make it stick around.

I say focus on getting rid of the negatives while promoting the good. If that means them needing to leave their religion to realize that freedom, then that's what they need to do. It's hard sometimes not to project the cure for us onto them. After all, this worked spectacularly for me, it should for others as well. It's natural to think this way.

 

As you bring up the comparison to an abusive relationship that is a good analogy. If the religion they are in is dysfunctional and causing that love they seek and desire for to be distorted and made unhealthy to them, then they should leave that relationship. But to say to them, you should leave all relationships, never open yourself to religion again, might not be what works for them. They may not believe all men are creeps. They may have known love before and need to find it again. And finding that can take many shapes, even another religion for them that isn't unhealthy for them.

 

I think it boils down to allowing them to find their own path, but by all means, call out any action of their 'boyfriend' that has left her injured. We should just resist projecting that what worked for us will work for them. For many they don't ever want a relationship again, others only need time away to heal in order to enter into healthy relationships again.

[MerryG]

I've been avoiding this topic since posting on page one. I still haven't read it all, so this isn't meant to be a response to anybody. I just find that the very title of this topic hits a sore spot every time I see it after clicking for new content. So I finally had to come back in and let it out.

 

I know that faith in god sometimes helps the weary. I wouldn't take that away from the people for whom it works.

 

But personally -- after all the years I spent asking god to help me through the bad times, or even just give me one, tiny, but credible sign of his presence just once in my life so I'd have something to hang onto when I felt I was struggling alone -- I am SO VERY PISSED about the lie of god's help. I am SO VERY DISGUSTED at all the times somebody said something to me like, "But maybe god did answer your prayer -- and you just didn't recognize it" or, "If you had more faith you'd feel his strength holding you up" or, "You need to pray harder."

 

So yes, everybody here knows it, but pardon me, I just need to rant: GOD never fuckin' helped ANYBODY.

 

There. I'll go away now.

[roadrunner]

my above post should say "Mushy" not "ashy" ....word correction sucks. LOL. MerryG is among the people who i'm referencing in my posts. To cap it all off to threaten her and any of us with eternal torture is mental abuse. I agree with ant that not all relationships are abusive but for those I'd say ignorance is bliss. Since we are speaking directly about the "weary" I think this is the most vulnerable and they need the most help and people may unknowing act as an "enabler"...that term left me last night.

[TrailBlazer]

"God" works rather like a placebo. As long as you believe he works, it works. But as soon as you start to doubt his ability to work, it stops working.

You cannot say God never helped ANYBODY, that is a huge generalization. You may say that God never helped you. You may say that God never helped some other people you know, but I do think the belief in a God is enough to do something for those who believe in it and have little else to put their hope into.

[MerryG]

You cannot say God never helped ANYBODY, that is a huge generalization. You may say that God never helped you. You may say that God never helped some other people you know, but I do think the belief in a God is enough to do something for those who believe in it and have little else to put their hope into.

 

Well, if I don't believe god exists at all, I can surely say that "he" never helped anybody. Because "he" couldn't help anybody any more than a pink unicorn or the tooth fairy could help anybody. But I would never deny that faith in god has helped some people.

[roadrunner]

You cannot say God never helped ANYBODY, that is a huge generalization. You may say that God never helped you. You may say that God never helped some other people you know, but I do think the belief in a God is enough to do something for those who believe in it and have little else to put their hope into.

 

Well, if I don't believe god exists at all, I can surely say that "he" never helped anybody. Because "he" couldn't help anybody any more than a pink unicorn or the tooth fairy could help anybody. But I would never deny that faith in god has helped some people.

 

I understand TB. but a placebo does absolutely nothing. a sugar pill never cured cancer for ANYONE. whether they feel think it worked or not.