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Facebook Discussion With Fundies About Healing And Divine Intervention


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This is a discussion that April (2honest) and I had with a group of fundies last night and this morning.

 

Cast of characters:

 

Seth - Liberal xian friend of ours that will eventually likely be an atheist, but even if he doesn't, he has a clear head and doesn't participate in the xian bullshit.

 

Emily, Niel, Heather - Fundy friends of Seth we don't know

 

Amanda - Atheist friend of Seth's I don't know

 

Matt, Jerry, Darren - Fundy friends we do know well from our old church

 

Nathan - our atheist son who entered on his own after seeing the conversation

 

We would not have join the discussion on our own. Seth texted us, said we would like his status, and asked me if we would comment to help him make his point (Amanda was the only one coming to his defense up till then).

 

So April and I commented, then Darren entered the conversation. That's where it got interesting, at least for us.

 

**************discussion below*******************

 

Seth (status): Sometimes people give God way to much credit. When a doctor helps your illness. God didn't have anything to do with it. I do not deny the their can be spiritual healing. But God doesn't intervene in every incident that happens in your life.

 

Emily: He does in mine!

 

Seth: Grrr.

 

Emily: Seriously! It says in the Bible to give Him all the glory. Only God has the ability to give doctors the wisdom and knowledge needed to make someone better. So ultimately the glory belongs to God!

 

Seth: No, the knowledge comes from experimental surgery. They find new things about the body all the time. I don't think that God gave them the knowledge.

 

Emily: He gave us curiosity. He gave us the ability to question the world around us. He gave us free will to believe or not. Without all this we wouldn't even have the ability to experiment!

 

Neil: Maybe you should get some more information, and study the Bible. The Truth will make you free.

 

Seth: Mr. Austin, I know the bible very well. I was raised in church my whole life, and my parents have educated me very well throughout the years.

 

Neil: Give me ANY Scripture supporting your statement.

 

Seth: I'm not saying that God does EVER heal anyone. But people give him to much credit when someone is cured by something thought a doctor. Are you going to say praise God when after you go through kemotharopy you turn out worse off than you were before hand?

 

Seth: But at least the cancer is gone.

 

Heather: But, when you prayerfully go to Him asking for healing, He can and will heal you. He guides the doctor's hands. Don't turn away from what your parents taught you, Seth. While I agree that God doesn't intervene in every instance of your life, He does offer healing when we are hurt, sick, ailed. I know this ALL too well right now, beyond anything that I have told anyone.

 

Seth: I just made a general statement. I didn't mean for this to turn onto a religious debate.

 

Neil: All things work together for good. The cancer maybe terminal, you may be healed. Either way, its to His Glory. My friend had cancer and the lives she touched during her battle was epic. The people who came to the Lord by witnessing her faith truly was God.

 

Seth: I don't know of any scripture supporting it. I'm going off of what I've been through and see with my own eyes.

 

Matt: Lol this status says "I want to start a spiritual debate" all over it...haha

 

Seth: Okay, see I don't understand how you can say praise God if her cancer killed her. My grandfather jus died from cancer treatment because it killed his immune system and he wasn't able to fight it off.

 

Neil: Faith. When the Lord returns He is only looking for one thing, those who have faith.

 

Amanda: The fact that every religious person here is ignorant to another's views blows my mind.

 

Heather: I know you didn't, Seth, but always be careful what you say. You don't know who is reading/hearing it an how it may affect them. I don't think that God cares which dog you pick out, so I don't think everything that goes on in our lives is steered by Him, but His Word says He will answer every prayer. Christians who seek His will in prayer WILL receive healing. Whether that means physical, spiritual, or you receive your new body in Heaven is entirely up to His will. But He does and will heal those who go to Him.

 

Seth: I have faith dude.

 

Seth: I guess, Heather.

 

Seth: By the way, he did fight of the cancer. But not the virus.

 

Amanda: Seth, go with what feels right for you. Only you can decide on where your faith lies. Don't let anyone else throw books, scriptures, and things they were told as a kid at you. I was told Santa was real. I have yet to see him. Having faith in something doesn't make it real. You could take a placebo pill assuming it will cure aids, and as long as you believe it...who knows, you'll probably feel better. The mind provides better healing than people give it credit.

 

Neil: The Bible is not for individual interpretation. A personal relationship with Jesus is not a religion, its a relationship. Give Him your hurt and cares for He cares for you. I believe that if you pray and obey along with spending time in His word all your questions both physically and spirituality will be answered. Bring your children up in the way he should go and they will never depart from it.

 

Seth: Holy shit! Thank you Amanda!

 

Heather: Seth, I know you're sad and hurting right now, and for that, I'm so sorry. And I know that this is of little consolation I those of us left on Earth in mourning when we lose someone we live, but God did heal your Grandfather. Just as He healed my Grandmother when He let her go to be with Jesus. We don't see it because we're humans and only see the temporary, but God is eternity and our bodies aren't meant to live forever here, but rather, we are meant to live with Him for eternity. I know that's not easy to swallow right now, but I promise the pain will fade and you will see him again. smile.png

 

Heather: Sorry for the typos... Stupid iPhone and I'm all jacked up (in the hospital right now)... Lol

 

Seth: I know I will see him again. I saw my grandmother after she died. But STILL no one is understanding my statement!

 

Seth: @Neil, non of my questions have ever been answered the entire time I've been a Christian. It's not going to make me not believe anymore. I just have lower expectations.

 

Heather: I understand. I said I agree that He doesn't intervene in every little thing. But His Word says He does answer our prayers. If we don't go to Him, as Christians we are rolling the dice. If we are healed, that's great, good job, Doc. If not, oops... smile.png But I know what you're saying.

 

Neil: Seth, you are a very talented musician. How much time, effort, practice and research did you put towards gaining this God given talent? Spend ten percent of the time in His word, prayer and diligently seeking His face and He is faithful to guide you in all areas of your life.

 

Seth: Thank you, Heather. smile.png

 

Amanda: Oh jeez

 

Heather: Sometimes His answer is "no" or "not now". That's not always bad thing, even though it might suck for us at the time. From my experience, it's because He has something better waiting. Better than our plans. Remember, it's His will, not ours. You're going through a normal phase, one I've been through many times. I'm always here for you if you need it, as I have been since you were a baby! smile.png

 

Amanda: So, are we now discussing how we as human beings don't have a will of our own? Because this could be a pretty dangerous topic.

 

Seth: By the way Neil. I've spent almost 8 years mastering my hard work and my self gained talent.

 

Seth: And I don't need God word to help me keep my belief. I believe in God Neil. Don't get that wrong.

 

Seth: Lol, Amanda

 

Seth: So if it's not our will. And it's Gods. Then obviously we don't have a free will. Lol

 

Heather: Seth, that's not what I'm saying. We have a free will. We have the power to make any decision. I'm referring to things out of our control.

 

Amanda: It's true. It wasn't my will that made me spend thousands of dollars on clothes and games that I didn't need. I'm sure the credit card company will buy that and let me off without hurting my credit score lol

 

Seth: I know that's not why you meant Heather. But it was a little contradictory.

 

Amanda: Funny coming from someone who only believes what they were told and is blind to what else is out there. I thought Christians were understanding and cared for one another? You can't even look at another person's point of view, which is pretty close minded, and dare I say it again, ignorant.

 

Neil: All talents are given by God. There is an example of talents given to three men in His word. Believing that its by your own hard work is deceptive. God gave you the desires of your heart, a talent that is for His glory. Its not by any works of righteousness that we have, but its according to His mercy in which we are saved.

 

Amanda: Can't listen? Now you're really being close minded.

 

Amanda: Funny coming from a Christian

 

Neil: Anyway, Im sorry for your loss and I will pray for you. Seek ye first the kingdom of God and everything else will be added unto you. Tell your dad I said hello.

 

Heather: Sorry, didn't mean for it to be contradictory. I should have been more clear.

 

Seth: Heather, did you see my last post?

 

Seth: I will Niel

 

Neil: PS I enjoy listening to you and your brother. God Bless

 

Seth: It's alright... I just didn't want that comment to stay there without me pointing that out. Just cause I didn't want anyone who reads all this shit to get the wrong idea.

 

Heather: Trust me when I say I understand. I've questioned, studied, wondered... I'm a Scientist and with that comes a nature to question and seek evidence. What you're feeling is normal. But because I've been there, I just want to help you. I love your family and have known y'all for forever, so I keep y'all in high regard. smile.png I just don't want to see you leave Him!!

 

Amanda: I'll leave you with this Seth since I see your friend didn't wan't to listen to someone else's views that weren't their own. Have the courage to believe in what you want, and not what others want.

 

Seth: I understand that Heather. My youth pastor is a scientist as well. In sure she has had her fair share of questions.

 

Emily: Seth, you know I love you and totally understand what you are saying, even if I don't agree with it. I personally didn't attack you, only debated my own belief, so I don't understand why someone would join this convo claiming I'm being ignorant of your belief. You know me better than that smile.png love ya!

 

Seth: Yes, I do Emily. smile.png

 

Amanda: Emily I did not blatantly come out claiming you were ignorant. If you felt that way, I apologize. I just cannot stand when people refuse to see things from the other side.

 

Emily: Thank you! I think we can all agree that, despite our differences, life can and does throw some serious punches that can cause us to question our beliefs.

 

Jason (me):

 

Seth,

 

I applaud you for questioning. Questioning is good. If god gave you your mind, then I would venture to say that he expects you to use it smile.png If your grandfather's passing causes you to question, then I say that it's a good thing. F

or others to assume that you are just hurt and coming to a rash decision, then I say that they are probably well meaning, but are failing to give you the respect you deserve.

 

The bible clearly says that when you pray for the sick, they will be healed. It's not ambiguous. It doesn't say "they might be healed". It doesn't say that "they may be a little healed". It doesn't say "they will be healed by dying".

 

Yet, in more than three decades as a sincere Christian, being a part of or witness to untold thousands of prayer, I never saw anyone genuinely healed. I am excluding the stories of "my back hurt, and now it doesn't" and the like. In my experience, those "healings" were nothing more than the placebo affect. Adrenalin in the moment caused the pains to temporary disappear, but without fail the pains come back, and those same people are up front in church to be prayed for again. They are "healed" over and over again, which is not really healing at all. The mind is a powerful thing in these circumstances.

 

In my experience, when someone is seriously ill, and they are prayed for, one of three things happen:

 

1. They are "healed". No matter if it was temporary, no matter if doctors were involved, no matter how much medicine or therapy they went through, Christians say "they were healed. God did it".

 

or

 

2. They are somewhat "healed", i.e. "it's not as bad as it could have been!". Again, Christians say "they were healed. God did it".

 

or

 

3. They are not "healed", i.e. they pass away. Christians say "God's ways are higher than our ways" or "They are in heaven now, so they are healed" or "God must have needed another angel", etc.

 

So, no matter what "They were healed. God did it". This is classic confirmation bias. It's illogical reasoning, the sole purpose being to hold on to a belief no matter what the evidence. But I get that because that's what people of faith are taught. They aren't taught to really question, as you are admirably doing now. If I was raised to believe that an invisible purple unicorn heals, then the result would be exactly the same. That's in no way proof.

 

"But you have to have faith" they say. I say that's a cope out. If I tell you that someone will do something, but they never actually do it, and then I explain away the inconsistencies through confirmation bias, then one of three things is true if we are honest about it. Either, that promise I told you is not true, and I need to backtrack and modify my understanding, or the person never made that promise, or perhaps that person never existed, even if I believed at the time that they did.

 

For me, among many other things led me to believe that either god doesn't exist or he doesn't intervene. If he doesn't intervene, then why bother with that belief system at all?

 

I realize that other people come to different conclusions, and that of course is totally fine. I don't expect other people to come to my same conclusions. I just want them to actually think it through and not spout of trite answers that don't make any sense.

 

Sorry for the long post, but I hope I've given some good food for thought here to those that don't understand what you are saying smile.png

 

Seth: Jason you are the best... Thank you for saying what I was trying to say.

 

Jason: Love you bro, and I'm proud of you

 

Seth: Thanks man. Love you too.

 

April (2honest): I agree that questioning and doubting are good things. It's healthy to look at every side of an issue. I believe that you are fully capable of reaching the right conclusions for yourself. smile.png This thread reminded of this video I watched

recently. I realize that the atheistic conclusion at the end is not the conclusion you've come to, but I think a lot of the points he makes apply here.

 

 

Darren:

Seth after reading theses post it just hit me like a ton of bricks! There will be those who have the silver lining of the real true but In all reality they don't have a clue nor did they ever! And if they never saw healing well maybe its because they never believe in the first place! Dude at one time I didn't believe in God or any of that crap and talked that same kind of bullcrap talk. I was them before I had what happened to me and it wasnt any kind of chemical inbalance in my brain bullshit! Because of the time and place i was expecting anything but it did and not even they could come up with a explanation cause there just it but only one god! I don't know about you but when that day comes that I have to leave earth I don't what to be a non believer and find out I was wrong. There are people sent your way to change your beliefs because there hurt or they didn't get what they think they should have on there time table. Dude I care about you so please take a good look at your friends. Its just so simple just believe with your heart. The devil know the word very very well and will send those to change your view by this kind of stuff. I have seen it from the first day they came even had a dream of it before they came.

 

Amanda: "talked that same kind of bullcrap talk" lol.

 

Seth: I know what you're talking about Darren. I'm not saying that God doesn't exist. I'm say the he doesn't hardly ever intervene in your life or heal people.

 

Darren:

He did me and he intervenes in my all the time, most of it I don't see till the end result comes but when you totally trust him he goes to work! Seth God's not going to do everything for you because he has already put that ability in you he

what you to reach farther than you think you can to teach you perseverance and character but he is there and he does open those doors and closes door to protect you but he gave you a mind to question. Rock on!

 

Darren: Jason is just telling you his version of there own cope out don't fall In to that pit because its hard. Very hard! I know that was me 7 yrs ago

 

Jerry: Why wouldn't He intervene? Sometimes He does it directly, many other times, He does it though other people. Both are His interventions. Go with Larry and Carol to Fiji. Watch God shape a nation and its new constitution. Go with them to

Nauru. See a nation that was prosperous, has lost everything, is slowly recovering, and they are sending out missionaries to other nations. You can't tell them that God doesn't intervene in every situation.

 

Darren: Ya that's right Jerry preach it my man!

 

Nathan (NathanB): People intervening, and god intervening are much different. there are atheist charities that do just as much. It's not necessarily all god. People either choose to help or they don't.

 

Darren: Atheist don't believe in God & that is the difference and atheist can do the same as god. Works mean nothing just a fuzzy warm feeling you'll have here on earth.

 

Nathan (NathanB): That means they're doing good for goodness sake. they're not expecting anything from it... and that's pretty admirable.

 

Darren: Ya nothing wrong with doing go but it good for yourself not good to glorify God which could mean that ya God is in fact using atheist for good but when you die and your face to face he could say I never knew you. Because you didn't simply believe in him. There are what scientist say today finger print left for scientist to find God and it will blow your mind what they have find outside this world that proves there is a God. Nell Armstrong proved it when he went to the moon.

 

Nathan (NathanB): Neil Armstrong proved that people have evolved enough to go to the moon. Purely off experimentation.

 

Darren: No there is more than that, he stated when there went they estimated the space dust that would have settled on the moon by there calculations which they had though was millions of yrs old and made the lander with big round landing pad to keep them from sinking feet into to space dust when in fact to there astonishment the thicknest of space dust was only 5/8 to 3/4 inches thick which calculated of a ago of 5000 to 6000 years old. Fact. Scientist has slow down the sound of a cricket making it noise with its feet to the life of a human and it sound like a symphony not a cricket and all the planet in the universe make a individual tone of instruments and the finger print goes on and on and on. There is a man I believe use to be atheist know scientist that proves all this. Research it.

 

Nathan (NathanB): That creationist explanation of the amount of moon dust has been thoroughly debunked... Just google it. And as far as the symphony goes that's your interpretation of it because thats what you want to believe.

 

Amanda: Can we just agree to disagree instead of trying to convince the other side that they're wrong?

 

Darren: Well nathan not every website tells the true and the web is full of false information to those how don't want to dig and come to the first thing and just take it at face value. Did you research the author and validates his credits and where he got his info. If you really want to get to the bottom go to glen rose and talk to the main man and see first had if your true seeking to find out if there is a God. God said there will be those how will never change there mind and will could explain a lot for y'all.

 

Darren: I agree to too Amanda. Good bye love the chat.

 

Darren: I'll agree to that.lol

 

Jason (me):

Darren,

 

I actually appreciate that you had the courage to say what many are probably thinking about my family. Because you are the first to say these things publicly, I think it’s important for me to respond. However, I’m responding because I love you and I consider you my friend.

 

First, if you thought I was referring to you when I talked about sore backs and adrenalin, then that is most definitely not the case. I was referring to a common, documented phenomenon, and did not have you in mind in any way when I made that comment. I would never publicly challenge anyone’s personal experience because I have no basis to do so without speaking to you personally first.

 

Basically, April and I were just supporting Seth. We were confirming that it is good to question and that we agreed through our own experience and scientific studies that divine intervention is at the very least doubtful.

 

It appears that you took our support for Seth very personally, and I do understand that in a way, because what we said is a direct challenge to your belief system. My interpretation (and please correct me if I’m wrong) of what you said about April and me is:

 

1. We never really understood or believed in god.

2. We were hurt/disappointed and that’s why we no longer believe.

3. Seth shouldn’t be friends with us.

4. We were sent by the devil to deceive.

5. You knew were bad news all along.

 

I know that if you search your heart and memory, you can’t possibly really believe that.

 

April and I showed your family nothing but acceptance, love, and compassion. I called, emailed, and came by your house more than once when you were struggling, just to love and check on you. I hugged you and cried with you as both you and I pleaded for god to heal you. I fought for you publicly in many ways, including believing in your art and commissioning you to do the artwork for the church. April was there for you on many occasions, as well, talking with you, praying for you and compassionately caring for you.

 

How can one rational, questioning statement from us about healing and divine intervention instantly wipe all that out? Would you really say these same hurtful things to our faces? I don’t think so, because I think you are a deeply compassionate and loving person. That’s the Darren we know and love

 

April and I are the same people. We still live our lives with love, compassion, and generosity. We simply don’t wrap that in the context of god anymore. Does that really make us an enemy that doesn’t deserve friendship anymore? I can’t accept that you really think that.

 

Since this post is already long, I’ll just end with saying that we didn’t leave the faith because we were hurt, disappointed, or deceived. We didn’t leave for any one particular event or reason. It was a careful and reasoned decision on our part. If you want to know the real story, then give me call or come see me (I’m at the cigar shop today just two doors down from you).

 

Nathan (NathanB): Yes I did look at the credentials but lets just agree to disagree. smile.png

 

Darren: Jason I'll say as I see it and I don't disagree that you and your family were there for me in the beginning. And i did get a bad feeling from you and have ever since. I don't know the man you are now. You showed up totally saying your a believer then you change how do we know that's not what you did at the last church. I really don't know you. What you are doing is trying to debunk there is a God. And if you want Seth to experience his own experiences for his own conclusions please keep your beliefs to yourself then and let him do it.

 

Jason (me):

Yes, you are right Darren. We spent 3+ years at the church, including donating an entire year of our time and $100,000 of our own money (and we're not rich by any standard, and are still trying to financially recover from this gift) to construct the building, simply to gain the trust of people so that we could try to lead some of them away from god.

 

Do you really believe that? Even if you do, I still love you. I mean that. I believe the best about your motives even if you don't return the same respect.

 

Speaking of respect, this will be my last post on this thread as I respect Seth too much to make it about me. My door will always be open if you want to speak to me instead of at me. Peace and best wishes smile.png

 

Darren: Jason your right it is about Seth totally! Really Jason you know what the true is.

 

Darren: Jason I have one last question, from what you said above if we where such good friends and the church was a important part of your life that you would do want have been done then why didn't you come to me, my family and explain the reason for your decision? Where is the respect in that?

 

Jason (me):

Seth, I'm sorry to continue to hijack your post, but I think I have to answer Darren's question because it's an important and valid question. I hope you don't mind smile.png

 

When we left the church, we actually did not leave because of our change in beliefs. April was too sick to get out of bed for a few months, so we just couldn't make it church. We were questioning our faith at the time, and once we came to our conclusions, we knew we couldn't come back. At that point, we saw two basic ways to stay away/leave:

 

1. We tell people why we couldn't come back. When we left the church, we were leading two large groups, and as leaders, we felt it would be harmful to our friends, other leaders, and the people in our groups be public about our change in beliefs. It would have likely stirred up a lot of emotion and questioning, and we honestly did not want to affect anyone's faith as we were in the process of trying to figure it out ourselves. We decided we didn't want to put our friends through that. We figured that those that really cared would contact us to find out where we went.

 

2. Keep our mouths shut. We knew that in doing so, we would be VERY misunderstood, especially when word eventually leaked out about our change in beliefs. But at least this way, we would be the ones who were most harmed and not the ones we love.

 

Right or wrong, we left the way we did because we love the people (including you), and we've paid a very dear price for that decision. If we had it to do over, I think we would make the same decision, because they decision was based in love and compassion. To us, it was the most selfless way to leave.

 

I hope that answers your question.

 

Darren: Sorry Seth last statement, thanks Jason didn't know that. I applaud you for the way you handled that but still hurts. What really hurts is your decisions of beliefs. The reason why I say that is this, what I've experienced so I really hope, pray, believe you and your family will experience the same that I have because that church misses your family!

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I don't know how you have the patience! Gawd, this is insane!

 

Emily is just spouting off the usual, and Darren is clearly a highly unstable (and possibly psychiatric) individual.

 

Crazy making. I practically see red when I read stuff like "...when you prayerfully go to Him asking for healing, He can and will heal you. He guides the doctor's hands..." This was not my experience. Even specialists threw their hands up in despair and could not help me. God has given me no 'heads up' about my condition or what to do about it. My worsening condition led me to not be able to attend church. Why would God leave me in this state, positioning me to lose my faith out of despair at the inaction of the God of Great Promises and unremitting pain?

 

2H must be beside herself, as she is in the same boat as I!

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  • Moderator

Belief in Jesus and Yahweh is something that most simply cannot question. The thought of a true believer turning away seems impossible. Their indoctrination requires them to condemn. Well-handled, as usual, Jason (and April, and Nathan).

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What should have been a simple status that made sense to a normal person became like this massive debate. It's sad that the Christians couldn't understand that their faith was not being attacked. Some reasonable explanations were ignored and I caught the jabs that Darren threw your way. Glad you explained where you were coming from and it seemed that maybe possibly Darren understood why ya'll left the way ya'll did.

 

 

Btw...2Honest...love the FB post about atheists...can't like it right now because I'm not "out" yet.

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It's so funny that Darren uses the moon dust argument. Even the folks at Answers in Genesis (the most bat-shit crazy Christians) have a page on their site that asks people not to use the moon dust argument. Even they realize it makes them look stupid.

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I don't know how I could possibly have handled that kind of asinine douchery as gracefully as you did, J. None of these fucktarded Christians actually know what's in their own Bibles. God will heal someone by killing them? Is that the new way Christians are rationalizing away God's total inability or unwillingness to do what he promised to do in his own Bible like 6 times? God never said that. Nor did he say the whole "yes/no/maybe" mantra. He said YES. ALL THE TIME. YES. Never no. Never half-assing it. He said YES. The idea of the omnipotent creator of the universe including FINE FUCKING PRINT on something as basic as a promise to always answer prayers is anathema to me.

 

Welll.... they wheedle and snivel.... of course he answers prayer.

 

As long as it was his will all along.

 

As long as you--and everybody involved in the request--is perfectly onboard, utterly dedicated, and completely free of doubt (sorry, Thomas; your miracle never would have happened in today's Christianity).

 

As long as God was in the mood to do it anyway.

 

As long as you pray and self-efface yourself enough for long enough.

 

As long as it's not too miraculous. That moving mountains shit isn't in their Bible. And no amputees, either. They piss God off.

 

As long as it's not expected to be permanent. Feeling great the night of the revival is one thing, but if you get sick again later, or the situation recurs worse later, then that's on you, brah.

 

As I look at this list, the thing that really runs through my mind is how the fuck did I ever buy into this horseshit?

 

If I said that exact same thing about Zeus always answering my prayers, but didn't ever actually manifest miracles and had a whole slew of weak rationalizations to explain away why I never seemed to get what I asked for, would Christians be obligated to lend credence to my claim? Then why would they insist I do this for their weak, puny, ineffective, uncaring god?

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I don't know how I could possibly have handled that kind of asinine douchery as gracefully as you did, J.

 

Well, it's an attempt to prevent them from dismissing me as "an angry atheist". It might be pointless, but I am trying to get them to think about the words actually coming out of their mouths. In this post, I was mainly trying to defend my friend Seth. It turned into something else, but hopefully I made them think. :shrug:

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Seriously. Every single time I watch you and 2H (and now Nathan! Good job, Nathan!) converse with christians--especially old friends from church--I admire you more and more. Patience, honesty, integrity and love. MAN I love you guys!!! There were a few things Darren said that made me cringe inside...like suggesting you were never believers and that you gave him a bad feeling...the complete opposite of the Blue family I've come to know.

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Seriously. Every single time I watch you and 2H (and now Nathan! Good job, Nathan!) converse with christians--especially old friends from church--I admire you more and more. Patience, honesty, integrity and love. MAN I love you guys!!! There were a few things Darren said that made me cringe inside...like suggesting you were never believers and that you gave him a bad feeling...the complete opposite of the Blue family I've come to know.

 

We love you too!

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At least some of your Christian friends are talking at you or with you, jblueep and 2honest. It's been total silence from Christian "friends" and associates for a long time. Nobody even tried to communicate with me. That was a great attempt at reasoning with them!

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Seriously. Every single time I watch you and 2H (and now Nathan! Good job, Nathan!) converse with christians--especially old friends from church--I admire you more and more. Patience, honesty, integrity and love. MAN I love you guys!!! There were a few things Darren said that made me cringe inside...like suggesting you were never believers and that you gave him a bad feeling...the complete opposite of the Blue family I've come to know.

 

We love you too!

 

I know Jason Blue very well also. But here's a little secret: he's only this nice after he's gotten his morning lurvin' from yours truly.

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Seriously. Every single time I watch you and 2H (and now Nathan! Good job, Nathan!) converse with christians--especially old friends from church--I admire you more and more. Patience, honesty, integrity and love. MAN I love you guys!!! There were a few things Darren said that made me cringe inside...like suggesting you were never believers and that you gave him a bad feeling...the complete opposite of the Blue family I've come to know.

 

We love you too!

 

I know Jason Blue very well also. But here's a little secret: he's only this nice after he's gotten his morning lurvin' from yours truly.

 

HAHAHA! I've been noticing this trend.....=P

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Wow, J, you, April and Nathan are just incredible human beings- kind, understanding and unwavering in your integrity. Thank you for putting a warm and loving face out there for we atheists; I know that it's caused you a lot of pain but I can only hope that you'll find yourself rewarded in so many other ways!

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Wow, J, you, April and Nathan are just incredible human beings- kind, understanding and unwavering in your integrity. Thank you for putting a warm and loving face out there for we atheists; I know that it's caused you a lot of pain but I can only hope that you'll find yourself rewarded in so many other ways!

 

You are one of our rewards!

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Wow, J, you, April and Nathan are just incredible human beings- kind, understanding and unwavering in your integrity. Thank you for putting a warm and loving face out there for we atheists; I know that it's caused you a lot of pain but I can only hope that you'll find yourself rewarded in so many other ways!

 

You are one of our rewards!

 

Ditto!! :)

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HEY! I'm all jealous now, McDaddy. HOW DARE YOU oh wait it's J and April OKAY LET'S GET THIS LOVE SHACK SHAKIN FOLKS

 

Christians have a real dilemma on their hands.

 

They have Bible verses that absolutely declare that Christians will always get what they pray for if they ask it in Jesus' name. No restrictions, no fine print, no escape clauses, no denials. In fact they are assured they will be able to move mountains and do all the miracles Jesus did--which means resurrections, walking on water, turning water into really good wine (which even Schmendrick the Magician couldn't manage, you might remember), healing lameness and blindness as well as garden-variety diseases and sicknesses--and ostensibly all the miracles the Apostles and Paul and those cats did--making buildings fall upon command and all that jazz. We're also told all though the OT and NT that God did all kinds of flashy shit like making pillars of flame fall from the heavens and making a crowd of people speak languages they hadn't hitherto known (standard boilerplate miracles really for the pagan religions of the time, but nowadays we don't know that, do we?).

 

That leaves them with a serious problem in the here and now. It's very plain, very obvious, very unavoidable, that Christians aren't healing lame and blind people. They aren't raising the dead. They aren't moving mountains. They aren't making impossibly-focused earthquakes that can destroy prisons on demand. They aren't walking on water or making even "vin ordinaire" out of tap water. They aren't calling down pillars of flame. They most certainly aren't even speaking in other languages. Their response to this simple, unassailable truth can be only one of two things: they can admit it's all metaphorical stuff, all myths and legends (in which case non-believers can safely ignore all the rest of its barbarity), or they can double down and insist that no, REALLY, the promises are true, if you look at it from this other really convoluted way. It stinks of deception and duplicity.

 

Remember the "South Park" with Tom Cruise in that kid's closet? Nicole Kidman shows up and tells Tom to get out of the closet. His response? "I'm not in the closet." Nobody can convince him that he is, in fact, hiding in a closet. I'm sure if pressed he'd have happily talked about how he was really in a kitchen--a very small, cramped, dark kitchen with clothes in it, but hey, sometimes kitchens look odd, you never know.... That's what's happening here. To anybody with eyes, a promise to always answer prayer and always give praying people what they've asked is just that. The more Christians wiggle around that simple truth with increasingly desperate and crazy rationalizations, the less credible their other claims are. If one has to contort logic and ration that much in order to believe a stupidly simple promise made half a dozen times in their deity's own holy book, then what does that say about their deity?

 

It's funny that the ex-Christians know this promise better than Christians do, but then, we are not facing impossibly long and brutal punishment for saying that emperor is buck nekkid and can feel free to simply say what IS, and not what we wish desperately was.

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As someone who has been chronically ill for years, the "just ask and God will heal you" comments infuriate me. Like, I prayed every night for God to cure my illnesses, I had the LARGEST women's prayer group in the COUNTRY praying for me and my entire megachurch had me on their prayer list. Tell me I wasn't sincere enough or that I or anyone else didn't pray enough. I have not one, but TWO rare diseases that have NO cure. I have had more luck with treating my diseases since the stress of wondering why God wasn't healing me has gone away due to my acceptance of atheism and humanism. How ironic is that? The very fact that I WAS praying so fervently was making me SICKER.

 

Fuck them. They have no idea. And your friend Darren? He is DROWNING in the kool-aid.

 

Sorry, but I just can't stand your fundy friends. I would've unfriended them just to not to get stressed by the bullshit they post and get sick again.

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Is chronic illness a common theme here? I am so sorry for that, ladies! My wife has been in the same situation (probably helped her to see the light as well).

 

You Blues rock.

 

You all rock. Live strong!

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What's especially infuriating is that when confronted with ex-Christians who prayed and prayed and didn't get healed, like April or Conure, you know these same smug, smarmy Christians would have a ready arsenal of victim-blaming to explain why this all-powerful, all-loving God, this God who swore he'd grant any prayers made by anybody who asked, didn't choose to heal these vulnerable children of his but chose instead to let Tebow get another touchdown or Aunt Mary to find her car keys.

 

I wasn't facing down a chronic illness of my own when I was fundie, but I knew many people who were, and it was realizing that the Bible totally lied about what it offered them that set me on the path of apostasy.

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HEY! I'm all jealous now, McDaddy. HOW DARE YOU oh wait it's J and April OKAY LET'S GET THIS LOVE SHACK SHAKIN FOLKS

 

Akheia, you are officially in the love shack :)

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Sorry, but I just can't stand your fundy friends. I would've unfriended them just to not to get stressed by the bullshit they post and get sick again.

 

We unfriended all of them awhile back. Seth is still my friend for obvious reasons, and they are all still friends of his (for now). That's how they saw the post.

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That leaves them with a serious problem in the here and now. It's very plain, very obvious, very unavoidable, that Christians aren't healing lame and blind people. They aren't raising the dead. They aren't moving mountains. They aren't making impossibly-focused earthquakes that can destroy prisons on demand. They aren't walking on water or making even "vin ordinaire" out of tap water. They aren't calling down pillars of flame. They most certainly aren't even speaking in other languages. Their response to this simple, unassailable truth can be only one of two things: they can admit it's all metaphorical stuff, all myths and legends (in which case non-believers can safely ignore all the rest of its barbarity), or they can double down and insist that no, REALLY, the promises are true, if you look at it from this other really convoluted way. It stinks of deception and duplicity.

 

I've had Christians on another forum try to convince me that God may not heal amputees physically, but he heals them emotionally, so it's still a miracle. That, and God gave us the technology to miraculously give them prosthetic limbs. So, God makes them happy to be amputees, with barely functioning artificial limbs? Yeah, sure. What an amazing God you serve.

 

And then there are those that try to argue that Jesus was only talking to the twelve apostles when he said that miracles would happen, but that wasn't for anyone else. They only needed the miracles to get the religion going, you see, to convince people that lived in a time when they didn't have access to radio and television.

 

And when Jesus said that his followers would do greater things than he did? Well, he was obviously talking about how Billy Graham could so miraculously reach so many people with modern technology.

 

The Christian spin on those verses is so great, it's a wonder that we can't use it to generate electricity for half of the U.S. from it. And it's blatantly pathetic.

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Glitter on the mattress

Glitter on the highway

Glitter on the front porch

Glitter on the Hallway

 

I'm wearin next to nothin

Cuz Ak's as hot as an oven!

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