Adam5 Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 Hi folks, I was on this forum for a couple of months in summer when I had backsliden from the Christian faith. I have since gone back to Christianity again. Why the hell would I do such a silly thing you ask I have entered the Lion's Den. I know I am in big trouble now! Kinda missed this place, but going to be strange now I am on the other side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JadedAtheist Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 Don't worry Adam, you won't be back in it for long. Your rational mind has had a taste and you'll eventually come back to your senses 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam5 Posted September 27, 2012 Author Share Posted September 27, 2012 Your rational mind has had a taste and you'll eventually come back to your senses So religion is inherently irrational? Is it not possible to have a rational Christianity? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JadedAtheist Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 No, it's not rational. Let's test it. Give me 3 arguments that you find the most convincing. 3 arguments that you believe prove Christianity to be true. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 OK, I'll bite - why did you do such a silly thing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenstar Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 (pops popcorn, gets comfy) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam5 Posted September 27, 2012 Author Share Posted September 27, 2012 No, it's not rational. Let's test it. Give me 3 arguments that you find the most convincing. 3 arguments that you believe prove Christianity to be true. Proof? Tricky that one. I guess its a faith, so based on beliefs and emotions rather than proof as such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam5 Posted September 27, 2012 Author Share Posted September 27, 2012 OK, I'll bite - why did you do such a silly thing? I'm not really sure myself. I just had a pull to go back to church. Maybe its a comfort thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wndwalkr99 Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 No, it's not rational. Let's test it. Give me 3 arguments that you find the most convincing. 3 arguments that you believe prove Christianity to be true. Proof? Tricky that one. I guess its a faith, so based on beliefs and emotions rather than proof as such. Define faith...then explain why it's a good thing. Would you be willing to use faith to determine what you think is true in the other areas of your life? Why or why not? Make sure you are using the same definition of the word throughout the exercise. Personally, I do not think that you can define "faith" in such a way as to have it be something that simultaneously supports your belief in something supernatural, but does not act as a barrier to honest inquiry into the nature of the universe or an impediment to your intellectual integrity. If you think you can, have at it - remember that you must use the same definition throughout. No equivocating. Please....have at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam5 Posted September 27, 2012 Author Share Posted September 27, 2012 Define faith...then explain why it's a good thing. OK, faith is a belief in God or in the beliefs of a religion based on spiritual insight and not proof. How's that It can be a good thing, depending on what your faith is in. Faith in the teachings of Jesus I think are good for teaching us values such as treating each other with human kindness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wndwalkr99 Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 Define faith...then explain why it's a good thing. OK, faith is a belief in God or in the beliefs of a religion based on spiritual insight and not proof. How's that ...pretty bad, actually. But okay. How do you differentiate the quality of your spiritual insigh over someone who might use theirs to be Muslim, or Hindu? Would you use this "spiritual insight" as sufficient reason for believing something in another area of your life, such as UFOs and aliens? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenstar Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 hmmm... I don't think anyone would say that Jesus didn't have good things to say. However there are other teachers who said good things too. The Buddha, Confucius...Lao Tse Tung, for that matter the philosophers as well. Plato... Aristotle, etc... and contempoary examples... Martin Luther King Jr., Gandhi... the list is long. The concept of 'do unto others..." is apparent in many belief systems, some of them predating jesus. Kindness doesn't belong to christianity, nor does morality. I that were the case then cultures which are not christian would not exhibit kindness. and that's just silly and completely unsupported by reality. Even the most backward isolated tribal peoples show basic human kindness, or they would not have been able to survive. Compassion and social cooperation is built in as a basic survival mechanism of being a social animal. Ever heard of oxytocin? It's a chemical that causes bonding in mammals... it's the reason why mammals don't kill their young, it's one of the reasons why animals tolerate each other long enough to mate or pair bond. Humans don't need the bible to have basic human kindness and compassion, it's our inheritance from evolution. Do we need to refine it? Sure... we have gone beyond tribal bonds to global bonds. It's a difficult transition for the human race, but some of us are widening our tribal loyalty to include ALL people (and the natural world as well) We are EVOLVING. Jesus' teachings are not all about kindness though... he also preached division. "I come not to bring peace...etc.." The entire bible teaches violence, elitism and bigotry... it's ALL OVER IT. Having faith in the position that compassion is a good value is a lot different from faith in jesus' teaching which support the bible, which is decidedly NOT compassionate. So.. I suspect you are not being honest with yourself about why you have chosen to have faith in the christian god. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 No, it's not rational. Let's test it. Give me 3 arguments that you find the most convincing. 3 arguments that you believe prove Christianity to be true. Proof? Tricky that one. I guess its a faith, so based on beliefs and emotions rather than proof as such. Faith, by it's very definition is irrational. I'll never understand why belief without evidence is considered by so many to be a desirable value. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Margee Posted September 27, 2012 Moderator Share Posted September 27, 2012 I hate religion (all religions) because i see what it has done to humans over the years but I truly understand someone who desperatly wants to believe in a kind, loving god. You even said, 'It's probably a comfort thing''. I think that what it is for a lot of people...comfort. Sometimes, we humans are so desperate for 'comfort' on this earth that we will even believe in an imaginary god without proof. Believe all you want my friend, if it brings you comfort ...just don't hurt anyone on this earth with your 'belief' system... 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenstar Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 "Faith, by it's very definition is irrational. I'll never understand why belief without evidence is considered by so many to be a desirable value." Proposal~ because for at least 1700 years it has been ingrained into our culture by the 'church'... like the Puritan work ethic which devalues the needs of the individual and serves the agenda of the 'rulers', or employers, whatever. Those in power... the elite, the church, the wealthy, have supported and promoted these concepts to more easily maintain their positions. This is apparent if you study the history of the Catholic Church and Europe from The Council of Nicea to the Age of Reason (and today as well), where it is easily illustrated. But even Pharoah (all of them) supported the idea that his 'authority' came from the gods.. and did. They were very successful i doing this and subsequently had the longest lived civilization in history with very little change after the basic concepts were accepted... unfortunately it also made them unable to adapt to changing world views and they crashed and burned with the coming of the Hittites and then the Greeks, and then the Romans. Make sense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overcame Faith Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 Why come back here and make this announcement, and especially to do so in the Lion's Den? Is it to test your faith? Laudable. Is it to try to convert us back into Christianity? Useless. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam5 Posted September 27, 2012 Author Share Posted September 27, 2012 But okay. How do you differentiate the quality of your spiritual insigh over someone who might use theirs to be Muslim, or Hindu? Would you use this "spiritual insight" as sufficient reason for believing something in another area of your life, such as UFOs and aliens? Thats a interesting question. I personally try not to think of my beliefs as better or worse than other faiths or beliefs. I guess its what I was raised in and am comfortable with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denyoz Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 Adam, believe in yourself only. Base your beliefs on your experience, not on anyone else's. If you haven't personally witnessed it, doubt it. There are a lot of liars out there, especially in organized religion. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raoul Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 No, it's not rational. Let's test it. Give me 3 arguments that you find the most convincing. 3 arguments that you believe prove Christianity to be true. Proof? Tricky that one. I guess its a faith, so based on beliefs and emotions rather than proof as such. You just shot yourself in the foot based on 2 of your notes. In an earlier one you question someone regarding 'why is beiief in the cult (this is the real name for it) irrational?' The inference, of course, is that it isn't. But now you start hawking the xtian strawman about 'faith' playing a key role. So, it begs the question - can you build a logical set of premises which prove that faith is rational? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam5 Posted September 27, 2012 Author Share Posted September 27, 2012 Jesus' teachings are not all about kindness though... he also preached division. "I come not to bring peace...etc.." The entire bible teaches violence, elitism and bigotry... it's ALL OVER IT. The "not to bring peace but a sword" saying is not advocating physical violence, but a metaphor for idelogical conflict cause in the following verse he discusses division within a family. "Violence, elitism, bigotry." Yes, there is a fair amount of this in the Bible, esp. the OT, but then I guess this reflects the reality of life at the time the books of the OT were written. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raoul Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 Define faith...then explain why it's a good thing. OK, faith is a belief in God or in the beliefs of a religion based on spiritual insight and not proof. How's that It can be a good thing, depending on what your faith is in. Faith in the teachings of Jesus I think are good for teaching us values such as treating each other with human kindness. I've just finished reading somewhere that many of Jesus' teachings weren't so unique because other religions/philosophical teachings of his day said the same or very similar things regarding loving your enemy, not returning hate, taking care of the poor, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam5 Posted September 27, 2012 Author Share Posted September 27, 2012 Faith, by it's very definition is irrational. I'll never understand why belief without evidence is considered by so many to be a desirable value. Its not belief in itself which is desirable, but the fruits of the Spirit - love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ ficino ♦ Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 Adam, this summer you were talking about the absurd and vile things that Christianity teaches, as e.g. on this thread, which you started: http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/52225-what-is-the-most-absurd-christian-teaching/#entry774094 Now you describe that period as a period when you were backsliding. That term suggests to me that you view your period of rejection of Christian teachings as a period when your judgment was led astray by sin or sinful desires - I'm just concluding that from my experience with the term "backsliding." Does this mean that you can demonstrate to yourself that your insights then entailed or were based on false conclusions from evidence? Or did something happen to make you feel pressured and religion offers a sense of fulfillment? Or... I know how annoying it is when Christians tell ex-Christians that their reasons for apostasy were emotional or moral and not based on rational consideration. I do NOT want to be annoying. Still, it sounds from what you've said above that you are abandoning rational consideration and devaluing it as "backsliding." This makes me concerned, quite frankly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raoul Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 Jesus' teachings are not all about kindness though... he also preached division. "I come not to bring peace...etc.." The entire bible teaches violence, elitism and bigotry... it's ALL OVER IT. The "not to bring peace but a sword" saying is not advocating physical violence, but a metaphor for idelogical conflict Where does it say, in the bible, that it was in fact a metaphor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam5 Posted September 27, 2012 Author Share Posted September 27, 2012 we humans are so desperate for 'comfort' on this earth that we will even believe in an imaginary god without proof. The proof of a creator is in the creation. Romans 1:20 Have you forgotten that one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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