Ravenstar Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 It makes me happy to make others happy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raoul Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 My mormon buddy's father, a college prof in linguistics, blew me out of the water on this when I was still a believer. I very much knew I had been pawned when he was through with me. You bring something to mind when you mentioned your mormon friend. I never knew this but I just read, in a former missionary's book, that Jos. Smith actually prophesied about the American Civil War occuring about 30 years before it began. The writer was trying to show how xtians would disregard that but still defend all of the ot prophecies that allegedly were fulfulled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 Hi Adam, I wondered where you went Your statement below completely nullifies the entire gospel: ...Genesis - legends, maybe some history. Adam & Eve - not real people... According to the bible (Romans 5:12), if there was no Adam, then there was no original sin. If there was no original sin, then we are not all born into sin. If we are not all born into sin, then we did not need a redeemer (Jesus). Exactly jblueep! Exactly! Perhaps Adam5 could tell us which curse is being referred to here? Revelation 22 : 1 - 3. Eden Restored Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. 3 No longer will there be any curse. Which curse is that, Adam? Chapter and verse please! BAA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stryper Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 In seeing the title of this thread I felt compelled to read it. The last time I was called a backslider was by a black evangelical. Proving that Bigotry is universal. From the sounds of your posts Adam, you have no clue what you are doing. From what I can see, you are not thinking about your actions and are merely doing what feels good. Thus, you are a hedonist. You are deriving pleasure from the confusion you haven't addressed. You are deriving pleasure from religion, and probably from the attention the church has given you when you left and then came back. You are obviously deriving pleasure from coming here and stating what you have. These are my opinions. Until you offer something of value, they will remain as such. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 Faith, by it's very definition is irrational. I'll never understand why belief without evidence is considered by so many to be a desirable value. Its not belief in itself which is desirable, but the fruits of the Spirit - love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. My non-religious parents taught me all those things. Love, joy, peace, etc. Christianity is just a waste of your time and money. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 Do you think you will convert anyone or are you simply a masochist and embracing Christianity is not enough torture for you? LoL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 What are you seeing that I'm not Adam....everything god made?? Does that include the talking snake in Genesis? It ALWAYS ends right there for me...no need to go any further into the 'holy book'. Maybe that was the problem, perhaps, and I'm not saying this is the case, but you could have taken the stories from the Bible too literally, when you were a Christian. The only reason Christians read the bible is to look obedient to their imaginary god. After reading some portion they interpret it to mean some warm fuzzy thing they want it to mean then feel good about themselves....most of it is ignored in favor of popular Christian culture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spectrox Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 Genesis - legends, maybe some history. Adam & Eve - not real people. The Baptism and Genealogy of Jesus - Luke Chapter 3 23 Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph, the son of Heli, 24 the son of Matthat, the son of Levi, the son of Melki, the son of Jannai, the son of Joseph, 25 the son of Mattathias, the son of Amos, the son of Nahum, the son of Esli, the son of Naggai, 26 the son of Maath, the son of Mattathias, the son of Semein, the son of Josek, the son of Joda, 27 the son of Joanan, the son of Rhesa, the son of Zerubbabel, the son of Shealtiel, the son of Neri, 28 the son of Melki, the son of Addi, the son of Cosam, the son of Elmadam, the son of Er, 29 the son of Joshua, the son of Eliezer, the son of Jorim, the son of Matthat, the son of Levi, 30 the son of Simeon, the son of Judah, the son of Joseph, the son of Jonam, the son of Eliakim, 31 the son of Melea, the son of Menna, the son of Mattatha, the son of Nathan, the son of David, 32 the son of Jesse, the son of Obed, the son of Boaz, the son of Salmon,[d] the son of Nahshon, 33 the son of Amminadab, the son of Ram,[e] the son of Hezron, the son of Perez, the son of Judah, 34 the son of Jacob, the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham, the son of Terah, the son of Nahor, 35 the son of Serug, the son of Reu, the son of Peleg, the son of Eber, the son of Shelah, 36 the son of Cainan, the son of Arphaxad, the son of Shem, the son of Noah, the son of Lamech, 37 the son of Methuselah, the son of Enoch, the son of Jared, the son of Mahalalel, the son of Kenan, 38 the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God. This draws a direct line between Adam and Jesus. If Adam was not real then are you saying jesus was not real? Or if Adam is fable and Jesus a real historical figure at what point is there a transition from unreal to real? Faith is not a valid pathway to truth. The way you have arrived at your faith is indistinguishable from that of a muslim. I don't think you care enough about whether or not your beliefs are true. If you did - you wouldn't believe without good evidence. In what other areas of your life do you make a decision based on no good evidence? None! Thought so. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenstar Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 son of Salmon? How did i ever miss that! Hakuna Mattatha! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wndwalkr99 Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 The inference, of course, is that it isn't. But now you start hawking the xtian strawman about 'faith' playing a key role. But faith does play a key role. Hebrews 11:1-3 "Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. This is what the ancients were commended for.By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible" So...faith is using wishful thinking as a standard of truth. I can't even begin to express to you how unimpressive that is. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raoul Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 Sorry folks but I can't help thinking we all got punk'ed by him. I'm going by past comments of his in which he would take alot of time and effort to write about things. Over here, however, all he's done is toss out 1 liners and trite, regurgitated doctrinal explanations. It's as though he's conducting some kind of study to see how we respond or behave or whatever other idiotic thing he's up to. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 Sorry folks but I can't help thinking we all got punk'ed by him. I'm going by past comments of his in which he would take alot of time and effort to write about things. Over here, however, all he's done is toss out 1 liners and trite, regurgitated doctrinal explanations. It's as though he's conducting some kind of study to see how we respond or behave or whatever other idiotic thing he's up to. Well during that past episode wasn't that his "backsliding" phase? Perhaps he was free thinking back then. Now he is repeating what preachers have told him and what he read in the Bible. Perhaps he is not punking us. Perhaps this is the actual change Christianity brings to the mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackpudd1n Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 Maybe it's my skeptical mind at work (again) but why do I think you're just putting everyone on? Hi Raoul, I just telling it as it is. When I joined ex-C I had lost faith and stopped going to church for a few months. Recently I have started going back again. I'm not a fundamentalist, and Im not out to force my views on anyone, and I dont claim to have it figured out, so maybe my style is different to others who visit here. I find this very interesting (the bit I have highlighted and boldened). I don't think you actually understand the concept of losing faith. Losing faith isn't about just being disillusioned with god, or having the shits with god. It's the realisation that the god of the bible, and everything related to that god, just doesn't exist. Disbelief in that god is not a willful choice that can be made. It's a realisation. What has been learned cannot be unlearned, so once that research has taken place and the realisation (known as Occam's Razor) has occured, there can be no return. And this is where common misconceptions about ex-christians occur, I suspect. There are many people on this forum who would love to go back. They just cannot, because they cannot unlearn what they have learned, and the realisation has already taken place. So I would have to say, gently, that I don't think you ever lost your faith in the first place. Whatever was going on inside of you, whatever caused that disruption in your normal practices, was not strong enough to make the questions overpower the indoctrination for you. I do hope, though, that one day you may have that realisation yourself, so that you may be free of the chains that christianity binds people with. True peace is to live in the knowledge that there is no god, and that there is no hell to fear. It is to know that your choices determine your outcomes in life, and that there is no-one putting you through shit for some myterious purpose you can't understand. True freedom is to be able to say, "shit happens sometimes and I don't know why". True freedom is to be the person you want to be, without fear of condemnation from a being that does not exist. 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raoul Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 Sorry folks but I can't help thinking we all got punk'ed by him. I'm going by past comments of his in which he would take alot of time and effort to write about things. Over here, however, all he's done is toss out 1 liners and trite, regurgitated doctrinal explanations. It's as though he's conducting some kind of study to see how we respond or behave or whatever other idiotic thing he's up to. Well during that past episode wasn't that his "backsliding" phase? Perhaps he was free thinking back then. Now he is repeating what preachers have told him and what he read in the Bible. Perhaps he is not punking us. Perhaps this is the actual change Christianity brings to the mind. You raise some good points especially the last one. But, regarding the last one - if that is true then this is just some more ammo for those of us who look at the cult as something very dangerous. I mean, if he's resorted to just quoting, blindly, all of those nauseating doctrines without any expanded views or thoughts then it's as if a religious zombie was in our midst - someone no rational, critical thinking human being would want to be around for any length of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam5 Posted September 28, 2012 Author Share Posted September 28, 2012 .. I do hope, though, that one day you may have that realisation yourself, so that you may be free of the chains that christianity binds people with. True peace is to live in the knowledge that there is no god, and that there is no hell to fear. It is to know that your choices determine your outcomes in life, and that there is no-one putting you through shit for some myterious purpose you can't understand. True freedom is to be able to say, "shit happens sometimes and I don't know why". True freedom is to be the person you want to be, without fear of condemnation from a being that does not exist. Hi Blackpudd1n, thanks for your excellent post. I still plan on going to church on Sunday, but I think I need time to go away and think about what you have said. I am having a very busy day at work so unfortunately cannot reply to any other posts, so will come back to read and think about them soon. This is a great forum to learn and debate. Have a good weekend all, and take care. Adam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackpudd1n Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 .. I do hope, though, that one day you may have that realisation yourself, so that you may be free of the chains that christianity binds people with. True peace is to live in the knowledge that there is no god, and that there is no hell to fear. It is to know that your choices determine your outcomes in life, and that there is no-one putting you through shit for some myterious purpose you can't understand. True freedom is to be able to say, "shit happens sometimes and I don't know why". True freedom is to be the person you want to be, without fear of condemnation from a being that does not exist. Hi Blackpudd1n, thanks for your excellent post. I still plan on going to church on Sunday, but I think I need time to go away and think about what you have said. I am having a very busy day at work so unfortunately cannot reply to any other posts, so will come back to read and think about them soon. This is a great forum to learn and debate. Have a good weekend all, and take care. Adam You're welcome, Adam. Going away and having a think about things is I think the best idea you've had so far in this thread. None of us came to this place of realisation overnight, so neither do I expect you to, either. For myself, it took about a year of research, after a few years of questions that I did not want to face. Atheism was not a decision I made, it was just the natural conclusion of my own research. There was no-one more surprised than myself when I realised that I was an atheist. Took me a little while to even feel comfortable using that word. Many here didn't mean to end up here. I know I didn't. I think the questions you should be asking are, why are all these people here? What have they learned that I have not? If I ask them for sources, can they give them to me? And if so, can I look at those sources and follow the evidence wherever it may lead, even if it contradicts my own belief system? If you want to know and understand us, asking questions will lead to understanding far better than debates. We could debate until the cows come home, but all it ever leads to is aggravation on both sides. Time and again, we get the same pattern over and over. New Christian comes, debate ensues for a few days, new Christian runs off or is sometimes banned. I've suggested asking questions to a few Christians, and then just listening and thinking on the responses given, but none have really taken me up on that so far. They get defensive, they have to make assertions, and debate ensues. So how about it? Would you like to ask some questions and listen to the responses given? Discuss instead of debate? With the freedom to say things like, "I don't really know, what is your take on that subject, and why do you think that?" If so, then pick your question, and take it to the Coliseum, and how about we all talk there? And you can help satisfy my curiosity over which method, debating or discussion, produces the better outcome Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 Deleted as a gesture of kindness. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdinaryClay Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 Faith, by it's very definition is irrational. I'll never understand why belief without evidence is considered by so many to be a desirable value. Your statement is irrational. It is self-refuting. You have no evidence other than faith that your statements are true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdinaryClay Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 we humans are so desperate for 'comfort' on this earth that we will even believe in an imaginary god without proof. The proof of a creator is in the creation. Romans 1:20 Have you forgotten that one Adam5, Spend time at this site. http://www.reasonablefaith.org/ You will find a large collection of writings and a forum with many people who have given the subject of Christianity a very through intellectual review and believe very deeply that Christ is who He says He is and that Christianity is very rational. I myself have spent my life asking the most difficult questions and my faith in Christ is stronger then it has been been in decades. After I post this you will get many responses saying what I'm saying is un-true. Seek for yourself. (Isa 57:15) For thus says the high and exalted One Who lives forever, whose name is Holy, "I dwell on a high and holy place, And also with the contrite and lowly of spirit In order to revive the spirit of the lowly And to revive the heart of the contrite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackpudd1n Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 Faith, by it's very definition is irrational. I'll never understand why belief without evidence is considered by so many to be a desirable value. Your statement is irrational. It is self-refuting. You have no evidence other than faith that your statements are true. Time to bring out the Lions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdinaryClay Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 Faith, by it's very definition is irrational. I'll never understand why belief without evidence is considered by so many to be a desirable value. Your statement is irrational. It is self-refuting. You have no evidence other than faith that your statements are true. Time to bring out the Lions. I'm very familiar with your so-called lions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 Faith, by it's very definition is irrational. I'll never understand why belief without evidence is considered by so many to be a desirable value. Your statement is irrational. It is self-refuting. You have no evidence other than faith that your statements are true. Awesome, demonstrate for me how my statement is self-refuting. While you're at it, demonstrate for me how belief without evidence is a rational act. And do so without equivocating the definition of religious faith with the colloquial "I have faith this chair will support my weight." 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdinaryClay Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 Faith, by it's very definition is irrational. I'll never understand why belief without evidence is considered by so many to be a desirable value. Your statement is irrational. It is self-refuting. You have no evidence other than faith that your statements are true. Awesome, demonstrate for me how my statement is self-refuting. While you're at it, demonstrate for me how belief without evidence is a rational act. And do so without equivocating the definition of religious faith with the colloquial "I have faith this chair will support my weight." You are the one who has made a positive claim. You claimed faith is irrational did you not? You claim that this is so because it takes evidence for a person's claim to be true. You have no evidence other than faith that your positive claim is true. If you wish to be coherent than you must provide evidence that your claim is true, else we just assume you simply have faith and are irrational according to your claim. But if you are irrational how can we trust your claim? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted September 29, 2012 Super Moderator Share Posted September 29, 2012 You are the one who has made a positive claim. You claimed faith is irrational did you not? You claim that this is so because it takes evidence for a person's claim to be true. You have no evidence other than faith that your positive claim is true. If you wish to be coherent than you must provide evidence that your claim is true, else we just assume you simply have faith and are irrational according to your claim. But if you are irrational how can we trust your claim? You are a moron. That statement does not require faith in order to accept as true. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdinaryClay Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 You are the one who has made a positive claim. You claimed faith is irrational did you not? You claim that this is so because it takes evidence for a person's claim to be true. You have no evidence other than faith that your positive claim is true. If you wish to be coherent than you must provide evidence that your claim is true, else we just assume you simply have faith and are irrational according to your claim. But if you are irrational how can we trust your claim? You are a moron. That statement does not require faith in order to accept as true. Then provide evidence, please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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