bornagainathiest Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 Btw, cosmologists using their 'raw inteligence' have had their predictions about the Big Bang verified to umpteen decimal places of accuracy. So, are you still confident that their science is... 'a matter of persepective' ...as you call it? BAA. Don't get cocky until you grasp what I'm saying. Not cockiness... evidence. You're not on the same wavelength, arguing against phantoms. See my response to Florduh. Agreed Yrth, we're not on the same wavelength. You're in no position of authority over me, so I'll be ignoring your demands ("See my response to Florduh.") and commands ("Don't get cocky until...") until I see something resembling politeness from you. Btw, that wasn't a demand, that was a polite request. Please address me as your equal. Thank you. BAA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 Arguments regarding the idea that religious conversion is unrelated to intelligence are valid I think. But I think we do a disservice to the process of discovery if we just brush aside intelligence as a factor in this discussion. I've seen studies that have shown the non religious generally score higher on IQ tests than religious and it just stands to reason that if you have the brain power, it's far easier to connect the dots and see through the bullshit. The fact that not every intelligent person does this does not dispute the fact that some have a greater ability to do so than others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akheia Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 They think there are good reasons for what they believe and they use the same reasoning process that we do. That's my point. Yes, but the question is why they fall for Christianity in the first place. Christianity in particular is known for using an emotional hook to draw people in and cause them to suspend disbelief and rational thought. The reasoning used to defend their decision comes later after they are already in. My point, and that of others, was just that probably no non-Christian ever calmly and rationally examines the logic of the religion and concludes that it makes sense. Hell, one of the Christian's favorite lines is, "We can't understand the mind of God; it takes faith." Unless of course the subject of gays or women's rights comes up. Then the Christian in question is very well aware of God's mind. I think they use that "we just can't understand God" as a thought stopper. For me, conversion to fundamentalism was a purely emotional thing. I tried to justify it later with intellectual reasons, but the actual plunge was emotionally based. I was scared of being "left behind" (this was during the 1988 Rapture scare) and consumed by cathartic feelings. Later, much later, when I was drifting away from the faith, I was able to view the whole church thing from a dispassionate, detached, clinical, skeptical perspective, and realized how much of my "love for God" was driven by groupthink, threats, and fear. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 Deleted my waste of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RipVanWinkle Posted December 12, 2012 Author Share Posted December 12, 2012 Just a general observation: I have never met an atheist or an agnostic that was not noticeably more intelligent than the vast majority of christians that I know. That doesn't prove anything, but it is suggestive. And I don't believe I've ever known an atheist or agnostic that seemed to have below average intelligence. Though this is by no means conclusive it does leave me with the impression that atheists and agnostics are generally more intelligent than christians. I think that the leaders of the national christian movement are generally intelligent, which I take with a grain of salt because, in my opinion, they are in reality nonbelievers running a scam (At least many of them are).Take Pat Robinson, for example. Even though he disgusts me when I watch him, I think he knows exactly what he's doing. I realize these are merely my impressions which could be wrong. But I doubt it. bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geezer Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 I think an honest assessment requires factoring in the power of indoctrination and peer pressure along with the emotional element. I honestly don’t think the decision to become a Christian involves an objective examination of evidence. Even highly educated apologists proceed from the assumption the bible is true. That indicates to me their indoctrination is highly effective because educated people do not normally assume facts that are not in evidence. When it comes to religion I think the indoctrination factor is an enormous component in the equation. An indoctrinated person simply does not process information as logically and rationally as an objective person would. Just my two cents. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yrth Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 They think there are good reasons for what they believe and they use the same reasoning process that we do. That's my point. Yes, but the question is why they fall for Christianity in the first place. Christianity in particular is known for using an emotional hook to draw people in and cause them to suspend disbelief and rational thought. The reasoning used to defend their decision comes later after they are already in. My point, and that of others, was just that probably no non-Christian ever calmly and rationally examines the logic of the religion and concludes that it makes sense. Hell, one of the Christian's favorite lines is, "We can't understand the mind of God; it takes faith." I have to admit that I haven't spoken to many converts about their experience converting. In fact, I don't think I even know a convert who didn't grow up in the West or some under-educated missionary front. If it's the decision to convert that we're talking about, then for the most part I agree with you. --some people might be predisposed to believe Christianity simply from growing up in the culture (Vigile alluded to this earlier). But -- I remember in college, I was ranting to a good friend, saying that if I had never heard of Christianity before and someone came up and told me that some guy 2,000 years ago 'rose from the dead,' there would be absolutely no way I would believe it without 'extraordinary evidence.' She even agreed! We were both still Christians, though by that time I was on my way out. So, yeah, if we're talking about cold conversion -- I'd agree that it's probably ignorance combined with emotion, though I'd reserve a small space for the exceptions who do believe after thinking it over carefully. **edit: I need to clarify -- I think a cold conversion would have to be mostly the result of ignorance. It's still emotional, yes, but even the strongest emotions won't allow someone to convince themselves that the moon is made of green cheese. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geezer Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 And another observation. When I was a Christian I had several friends that were engineers, a couple of medical doctors, a lawyer for a fortune 500 company that specialized in international law; and they were their company’s chief international contract negotiator. All of these people were highly educated. The one thing they had in common was that they had been introduced to Christianity as children by their parents. They were cradle Christians and my experience indicates that is quite common. I’ve noticed both the conversion and de-conversion stories posted here have many similarities. People were introduced to Christianity by a trusted loved one, friend, or family member. The decision to become a Christian was based almost solely on emotion. However, the de-conversion stories indicate the decision to leave Christianity was based on an examination of the evidence. And the motivation to examine the evidence is often based on problems with the biblical text as well as the group’s dogma and traditions. Maybe it isn’t a stretch to say people are emotionally lured in but leave when they are intellectually unable to validate any evidence that would authenticate Christianity and the existence of God. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akheia Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 I've known a lot of really smart Christians, even fundies, but like others have said, I've never once met an average-intelligence or below-average atheist or ex-Christian. But there's a distinction I draw between just general intelligence and critical thinking. I don't think, of all the really smart Christians I've known, that any of them actually knew anything about the latter. You've got to have at least a little schooling in rational and critical thinking, in a society so swamped with Christian privilege, to separate the claims the religion's adherents make from the reality, and to logically parse their arguments. I can't honestly think of a single person I ever met in the church who was capable of doing that and still remained Christian. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 Because Christianity makes sense. Much more than (say) materialism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 Because Christianity makes sense. Much more than (say) materialism. Humbug. Christianity does not make sense. But I guess you were just jesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 Because Christianity makes sense. Much more than (say) materialism. Humbug. Christianity does not make sense. But I guess you were just jesting. Maybe I was too provocative. Sorry. But I do think it makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenstar Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 Some very good questions and thoughts here. Lot's to consider I wasn't raised christian... religion was kind of a 'non-issue' in my home, neither discussed nor vilified. BUT... it was all around me, in culture, in the basis of literature, tv, music, archetypes... and all other media forms, art, figures of speech..language, etc... in the west we are IMMERSED in it. It has influenced our culture and history and social values, everything for 1700 years. It becomes part of the MATRIX we perceive the world through. There is no way NOT to be influenced by it. I was never a dumb kid, above average, but no genius... and I always had a thirst for truth, and I think because of the culture I grew up in I believed that religion (in my case a mystic version) was the way to truth... maybe I heard the phrase, "I am the way, the truth and the life' and internalized it. I don't remember.... I was also a very compassionate person, and in a way I identified with the PR of Jesus as loving and compassionate, I really liked that idea. "God is Love" is a very powerful statement. It appeals to the idealist in all of us... the person we would LIKE TO BE. but we aren't... and we know it. We aren't perfect, we are human... and on some level, especially when young and insecure and untried and naive that causes an large amount of anxiety... christianity offers us a way out of that anxiety... it is set up to feed that sense of failure, give people a way out of it... and it offers it the EASY way. Just believe (which I now equate with - just lie to yourself) It's almost effortless, at first anyway. In this simple form xianity is very childish... it appeals to the scared kid in us that needs a parents acceptance, protection and guidance but you don't really have to return that, except by being obedient. Later it begins to take from us though - because anyone who remains a dependent will diminish as a person, in the long run. Ya gotta grow up sometime. I was attracted because I was searching for truth... and my journey as taken me all over the religious and now more philisophical world. My problem was I always wanted MORE... I wanted answers to all my questions and I was willing to dig for that. It wasn't really emotional for me, although the emotional appeal was there. I've always had a hard time though with anthropomorphized deities... I always felt silly 'praying' (except when in deep grief - but I was more expressing rage and sorrow than praying) I didn't become a xtian to 'save' myself... and I think deep down I never really bought that there was something inherently 'wrong' with me. Of course the more I studied the less it made sense... I still have some interest though in gnosticism and mysticism... there's some interesting stuff there. I also have to say that christians themselves were part of my moving away from it. I've met some very lovely and sincere christians - but mostly they don't seem all that different to me than anyone else... and even worse they seems to be MORE hypocritical and phony, in general. Self-righteousness and elitism is a serious turn-off, for me and christians seem to have more of these traits than a lot of others (although I have met muslims like this too - maybe it's a judeo-christian thing? I have only met one Jew in real life, and spoken with maybe 3 on the net. Not enough to really know what they are like other than they seem rather intelligent). I also despise bigotry. Always have, never could equate it with Jesus. I have to agree that the atheists and agnostics I have met and interacted with seem above the norm in both intelligence and critical thinking.. they also seem more curious and confident in themselves.. more courageous, maybe? Definitely more self-possessed. They seem, to me, more willing to take the truth they find... even if it's uncomfortable, and stand by their convictions. I say this because what it came down to, finally, for me... I couldn't lie to myself... I couldn't fool myself into believing what was 'comforting' just to avoid personal responsibility, or social rejection, or my fear of death, or anything really... to stand in my own truth was more important, in the end, even if it means standing alone. I've never really been a good follower... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galien Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 Because Christianity makes sense. Much more than (say) materialism. Humbug. Christianity does not make sense. But I guess you were just jesting. I don't think either makes any sense. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurisaz Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 Inasmuch as christianity can be (to some) simply a worldview based on mutual love and respect, it can make sense. Literal readings of da babble though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 Because Christianity makes sense. Much more than (say) materialism. Either that, or perhaps you aren't as smart as you think you are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted December 19, 2012 Super Moderator Share Posted December 19, 2012 Because Christianity makes sense. Much more than (say) materialism. Which Christianity? The sole source of today's Christian religions is the Bible. The Bible most certainly makes no sense even with its own internal logic. To make sense themselves, the various (30,000) branches of Christianity each have to ignore parts of it. Which parts to ignore seems to be up to individual preferences - do I hate gays, want enemies to burn eternally, need desperately for prayer to work, want to work my way to Heaven, want a blanket forgiveness to cover me, etc., etc. So perhaps Christianity makes sense to you because your Christianity is designed by you to support your natural prejudices and fulfill your particular needs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
falemon Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 Wish I could vote up folorduh's post. To add, one of the issues I had before de-converting was the fact that everyone accepts the NT as gospel truth when a vast majority of it was hand picked by a pagan who built the bible around a specific group of followers, excluding the rest. Nobody questions the decision, nobody questions the choice, and nobody considers what Christianity would be with the absence of Paul's influence on the NT. Nobody questions the choice of including the Book of Revelation, or the interpretation of it despite knowing that people interpreted such things in symbolic or allegorical ways. Nobody questions the interpretation of their pastor when, by logic if he is right then 90% of pastors are wrong but no decision was made to disseminate or discern truth, instead we blindly follow based on nothing other than circumstance. We follow Christianity not through a comprehensive study of theology but due to cultural forces, but hey, do you know what double minded means Badger? It's self deception. Its the very device Christianity uses to keep its followers (especially the intelligent followers) practicing something that deep down you know is in most part a lie. And I didn't even get onto the aspects of the point at which one decides to see the Pentuach as ultimate fact on the world despite the fact that it is proved untrue by what is known of historical fact. Nor did I make reference to the "holy ghost", the force that proves God's existence to so many Christians (tongues too), happens to work just as well in Churches that are undoubtedly cults. If you really are a person who has a respect for Truth at least have the decency to understand the dynamics of . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 Because Christianity makes sense. Much more than (say) materialism. Which Christianity? The sole source of today's Christian religions is the Bible. The Bible most certainly makes no sense even with its own internal logic. To make sense themselves, the various (30,000) branches of Christianity each have to ignore parts of it. Which parts to ignore seems to be up to individual preferences - do I hate gays, want enemies to burn eternally, need desperately for prayer to work, want to work my way to Heaven, want a blanket forgiveness to cover me, etc., etc. So perhaps Christianity makes sense to you because your Christianity is designed by you to support your natural prejudices and fulfill your particular needs. +100 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 God can do anything but be self-contradictory, including write a self-contradictory book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 Because Christianity makes sense. Much more than (say) materialism. Humbug. Christianity does not make sense. But I guess you were just jesting. Maybe I was too provocative. Sorry. But I do think it makes sense. Of course it does to you. God created faulty humans and gave them the ability to sin against him, then he gave them laws they couldn't follow, because that's how he made them. To fix his own mistakes, he sent himself to be sacrificed to himself in accordance with old pagan human sacrifice laws, and he was pleased, but only if you really, really believe it in your heart in the same way as Disney movies try to make you believe in your dream. That makes perfect sense. For a 5 year old, perhaps... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 Because Christianity makes sense. Much more than (say) materialism. Humbug. Christianity does not make sense. But I guess you were just jesting. I don't think either makes any sense. Sure. There are problems with materialism too. By the way, he does say materialism makes sense, but Christianity makes more sense. How can something make sense (assuming to the fullest extent) and something else make any more or less sense (if it's still to the fullest extent)? It's like "my 100% has more percent than your 100%." Silly Christian logic... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 Because Christianity makes sense. Much more than (say) materialism. Which Christianity? ... So perhaps Christianity makes sense to you because your Christianity is designed by you to support your natural prejudices and fulfill your particular needs. Exactly. Badger's Christianity makes sense to Badger. Of course it does, since he modified it to fit his own ideas and thoughts. If his understanding of the world changes, so must his "Christianity" to maintain fitness and sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 Because Christianity makes sense. Much more than (say) materialism. Humbug. Christianity does not make sense. But I guess you were just jesting. I don't think either makes any sense. Sure. There are problems with materialism too. By the way, he does say materialism makes sense, but Christianity makes more sense. How can something make sense (assuming to the fullest extent) and something else make any more or less sense (if it's still to the fullest extent)? It's like "my 100% has more percent than your 100%." Silly Christian logic... Silly straw man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 By the way, he does say materialism makes sense, but Christianity makes more sense. How can something make sense (assuming to the fullest extent) and something else make any more or less sense (if it's still to the fullest extent)? It's like "my 100% has more percent than your 100%." Silly Christian logic... Silly straw man. Eh? I'd say you used a red herring there. You need to study logical fallacies. It's even sillier to hear Christians attempting to use logic and fallacies and then fail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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