Is The Universe Finetuned For Life Or Is God Omnipotent?

[Guest Babylonian Dream]

Wow, he destroyed the fine-tuning arguements better than anything else I've seen yet:

 

[BDPApostate]

Wow!

This is really good. Who made it?

[Guest Babylonian Dream]

Darkantics/Darkmatter. Forgot the rest of the name. Just click on the video lol, that'll take you to his youtube page.

[mymistake]

Good vid.  I've also seen his next one called Beating Astronomical Odds.  I like that one too.

[Guest Babylonian Dream]

Good vid.  I've also seen his next one called Beating Astronomical Odds.  I like that one too.

Calculate the odds you'd see that video and comment about it on here. It's even less probable. XD

 

It is a good one. Yes it is.

[Badger]

This argument is epic fail. The (alleged) fact that the universe is fine-tuned does not entail that God lacked freedom and power to create exactly the kind of universe he intended.

[Guest Babylonian Dream]

This argument is epic fail. The (alleged) fact that the universe is fine-tuned does not entail that God lacked freedom and power to create exactly the kind of universe he intended.

It entails that there are a specific set of details that God had to include, hence, limits on his abilities to create. So yes, actually, it actually is a good arguement and is an epic win.

[mymistake]

This argument is epic fail. The (alleged) fact that the universe is fine-tuned does not entail that God lacked freedom and power to create exactly the kind of universe he intended.

 

 

Ah, so God is evil.  Thanks for clearing that up.  God wants some people to struggle and sacrifice to raise a child only to see that child's life cut short in pointless suffering.  But do go on to support your assertion.  Why does fine-tuning not entail that God lacked freedom and power?

[falemon]

This argument is epic fail. The (alleged) fact that the universe is fine-tuned does not entail that God lacked freedom and power to create exactly the kind of universe he intended.

I do agree that it doesn't imply God lacked freedom, though I am terribly concerned that a God would create such an unjust world where those who God has failed to prove his existence to are punished with eternal torture. A world where people are, due to no fault of their own, born with genetic defects that make life unbearable and not worth living. A world where women's are mutilated while alive, begging for His help but God is not responding because he is busy stopping natural disasters from occurring in Israel. A world where His people killed innocent people in His name despite it being completely wrong.

 

A world where His followers are following a doctrine set forth by a pagan who hand picked books conforming to a communication and leadership system similar to that of the Roman army, but due to the system of deception employed by the pagan emperor the people have been tricked into questioning anything about the choice of books additional to the Gospels and even the legitimacy of the translation they choose despite the fact that the translation at the time lacked knowledge that we know today invalidates many interpretations of it.

 

Fine tuned or not, this God sounds more impotent than omnipotent

[Badger]

It entails that there are a specific set of details that God had to include, hence, limits on his abilities to create. So yes, actually, it actually is a good arguement and is an epic win.

 

O.K. Can you prove this?

[Badger]

Ah, so God is evil.  Thanks for clearing that up.  God wants some people to struggle and sacrifice to raise a child only to see that child's life cut short in pointless suffering.

 

This is red herring.

 

Why does fine-tuning not entail that God lacked freedom and power?

 

"An omnipotent God can create exactly what he intends." (4:52)

[raoul]

 

It entails that there are a specific set of details that God had to include, hence, limits on his abilities to create. So yes, actually, it actually is a good arguement and is an epic win.

 

O.K. Can you prove this?

 

It's not a matter of any of us 'proving' anything as much as it is the way theists evade the REAL matter regarding 'proof'. IE: In order to prove an extraordinary event or being one must present extraordinary facts or at least premises for support. To date theists have failed miserably regarding this. Perhaps a very simple example of what I'm saying might suffice. I claim I cannot live without air and someone puts a bag or something else over my head to cut off oxygen to support my premise. Four or five minutes later while I'm struggling to breathe and am almost unconscious, the bag or whatever has to be removed before I pass out and subsequently die. My simple experiment supports my allegation. Now, turn this around to the god belief - where has there been any sound arguments with a tiny bit of proof regarding a god, especially the one from the bible, exits? Nada - just logical mind games, philosophical arguments, et. al. But NO real evidence. No real proof. Case closed.

[Badger]

It's not a matter of any of us 'proving' anything as much as it is the way theists evade the REAL matter regarding 'proof'. IE: In order to prove an extraordinary event or being one must present extraordinary facts or at least premises for support.

 

You are red herring this thread and fallaciously shifting the burden of proof.

[Margee]

This argument is epic fail. The (alleged) fact that the universe is fine-tuned does not entail that God lacked freedom and power to create exactly the kind of universe he intended.

 

 

Badger, would you please watch this for a few minutes and make a comment? I would appreciate your viewpoint.

 

Note: The 'you tube' isn't showing up for some reason this morning???

 

Anyway, google, Neil Degrasse - Stupid Design. thanks!

 

[♦ ficino ♦]

Badger, are you Ordinary Clay?

[bornagainathiest]

Dayum! You got in there first, Ficino!

 

To the Mods...

 

Please check Badger's details out.  Is he really OC, using grammatical errors to hide his true identity?

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[bornagainathiest]

(In case Badger isn't OrdinaryClay)

 

Please compare and contrast.

 

Christianity says that we are the reason God made the universe.

Christianity says that we are the pinnacle of God's creation.

Christianity says we are center of and reason for... EVERYTHING.

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

1543.

Nicolaus Copernicus dies.  He began the first Cosmological Revolution, which displaced the Earth from the center of the universe. 

 

1785-1913

Various geologists discover the true age of the Earth. They conclude that humans have occupied it for a vanishingly brief moment in it's full, 4.5 billion year history.  Johhny-come-lately humans are therefore displaced from being the cause and reason of it's existence.

 

1859.

Charles Darwin publishes, 'On the Origin of Species', which displaces man from his previous status as God's special creation.

 

1923.

Edwin Hubble proves that the universe extends far beyond the Milky Way galaxy.  He displaces our galaxy from the center of reality and demonstrates that it's simply one of billions of galaxies.

 

Mid-20th century.

Various geologists discover evidence for many mass extinction throughout geological time.  The worst eliminated 96% of all marine species and 70% of all land species. This displaces human beings from their supposed role as the prime reason for life's existence and evolution. 

 

1980-2000.

Cosmologists discover that ordinary matter (you, me, planets, stars, etc.) makes up less than 5% of the universe - the bulk being dark matter and dark energy.  Humans are once again displaced from a central, special or priveleged position in reality.  The 'stuff' we are made of makes us an unimportant side-show in the cosmic sweep of things.

 

1995-today.

Astronomers discover extrasolar planets in increasing numbers and with increasing similarity to the Earth.  The data indicates that billions of Earth-like planets exist in our galaxy.  Therefore, it's only a matter of time before the Earth is displaced from it's unique and special position as the favored abode of life.

 

2000-2005 / 2005-2008

The Sloan Digital Sky Survey shows that the observable universe is homogeneous - it looks the same in every direction.  This displaces the Milky Way galaxy from any kind of special or priveleged location in the universe, making it just one of billions of galaxies.

 

2009-2013/15.

The Planck spacecraft cosmological data will be released in the first quarter of next year.  If the predicted patterns are found in the Cosmic Microwave Background, this will be the 'smoking gun' evidence for the existence of other universes.  This will call Genesis 1:1 into question, displacing God from His role of creator.

 

Such a Multiverse will also blow the Fine-Tuned universe argument out of the water.

 

 

 

See the trend?

Science advances - Christianity retreats.

The clock is ticking and the 'wiggle' room is getting smaller and smaller!

 

BAA.

[Vigile]

 

This argument is epic fail. The (alleged) fact that the universe is fine-tuned does not entail that God lacked freedom and power to create exactly the kind of universe he intended.

It entails that there are a specific set of details that God had to include, hence, limits on his abilities to create. So yes, actually, it actually is a good arguement and is an epic win.

 

 

I actually agree with Badger here.  Fine tuned in this sense doesn't appear to limit god's power.  I would, however, dispute that the universe is fine tuned or even ideally suited for life, so there is no need to accept either premise posited by apologsts on the matter.  Evidence to the contrary abounds.  Life just happened to find a nook or a cranny to form in and then adapted to available conditions.  Even if the universe were teaming with life as some might predict, more than 99% of it is still unsuitable for and therefore absent of life.  This in no way indicates a tuning of any sort any more than the shape of a mud puddle makes it perfectly suited for the water that temporarily resides in it. The very idea of suitability is a red herring. 

[Badger]

Badger, are you Ordinary Clay?

 

Can you explain what Ordinary Clay is?

[♦ ficino ♦]

Hello Badger, Ordinary Clay is another person on this site.  I was struck by the similarity between his and your posts, so I wondered whether your screen name was an alternative name of the same person.

[mymistake]

 

Ah, so God is evil.  Thanks for clearing that up.  God wants some people to struggle and sacrifice to raise a child only to see that child's life cut short in pointless suffering.

 

This is red herring.

 

Nope.  It's the natrual conclusion of your position.  If God intended for things to happen the way they did then God is evil.

 

Why does fine-tuning not entail that God lacked freedom and power?

 

"An omnipotent God can create exactly what he intends." (4:52)

 

 

 

You use circular reasoning.  CGI artists have reached a point where they can create nearly anything people can imagine.  CGI artists do not fine tune.  Power is the opposite of fine tuning.  You claim epic failure but so far can demonstrate nothing.  If God was all powerful then He could have forgiven mankind anyway He wanted to forgive them and sending God the Son to be a sacrifice was just empty motions God choose to go through.  An all powerful God would not be constrained to forgive in only that one silly way.  Now you have three examples.

 

 

Edit:

To clarify the context here is that CGI artist can make anything in a movie.  Of course they are still limited by their own imagination, time, technology, skill and other things.  So they still have to fine-tune to those restrictions.  And the biggest restriction is their art is limited to images on the movie screen.  However within those restrictions CGI has taken movies to new levels that people could never have imagined many decades ago.  I realized later that I'm going to need to contrast this with the mythical omnipotence of God.  Some believe God can do anything in reality.

[Badger]

Hello Badger, Ordinary Clay is another person on this site.  I was struck by the similarity between his and your posts, so I wondered whether your screen name was an alternative name of the same person.

 

I haven't been here for a while, but I have always used only this nickname.

[mymistake]

 

It entails that there are a specific set of details that God had to include, hence, limits on his abilities to create. So yes, actually, it actually is a good arguement and is an epic win.

 

O.K. Can you prove this?

 

 

 

That is what fine tune means.  If CGI artists had to fine tune the films they make then they would have to fill their films with 6,837,480,000,000,000 minutes of empty space to get the two hours they want.  They don't do that.  They put what they want in every frame of the film.  Our universe on the other hand is mostly empty space with the occasional singularity or fusion furnace.  Then one slightly oversized warm star has a rock.  On that rock is a desert.  In that desert is a pool.  In that pool lives a type of fish that lives nowhere else.  If it was intentional then that would have been fine tuning.  The universe is fine tuned for the Devil's Hole Pupfish. 

[falemon]

 

Hello Badger, Ordinary Clay is another person on this site.  I was struck by the similarity between his and your posts, so I wondered whether your screen name was an alternative name of the same person.

 

I haven't been here for a while, but I have always used only this nickname.

 

 

 

Hey, just wanted to say, I wrote a post in response to your message. Let me know what your thoughts are.

[Badger]

Badger, would you please watch this for a few minutes and make a comment? I would appreciate your viewpoint.

 

He is not really arguing anything as much as just making parody. Well no Christian would deny that, in its present conditions, the universe is flawed in many ways. He is not debunking the fine-tuning argument, however. The argument basically says that the manifold complexity we discern in our universe cannot be (or is more unlikely) explained by random, unordered events. Degrasse does not touch this issue at all, as you can see.