Is The Universe Finetuned For Life Or Is God Omnipotent?

[falemon]

I find Christians can be incredibly lazy when it comes to actually thinking, so buzzwords really work for them. And since they don't want to learn things for themselves they are more than happy to be told what to think about something, ignoring the real meanings.

 

A perfect example of this is demons, a word originally having the same meaning as spirit.

 

Christianity bastardises so many words. Anytime you mention truth they respond with their automated tape response, "Jesus is the truth the way and the light". FFS, grow some brains.

[Deva]

Some Christians have this mentality that its either all one thing or its all another thing - no inbetween shades of grey. Its the black and white thinking.  We are either born wicked sinners or we are all born completely good.  I recently read a commentary in the local paper by Cal Thomas who assumes that if we don't believe that everyone is born evil, that automatically we are born "basically good." In fact here is the wretched thing:

 

http://www.calthomas.com/index.php?news=3830

 

Of course his point is:

 

 

If there is a source of evil, is there also a source of good? And if there is, has that source for good been offended by all of the accumulated evil we are piling up, affording it an upper hand?

 

We have offended God.  That's the reason these things happen.

[Antlerman]

I also see the misinterpretations because of the mytho-literalism. It's sad really because if you try to share this they usually only see it as a confirmation of their misconceptions. Mysticism is difficult to convey with language in the best of circumstances.

This is very true. You can't understand what that landscape looks like until you enter it. There's just no way, no matter how well-read or intelligent you are. My analogy I use which everyone seems to love is that of the kids who find an adult's diary, put on their big shoes and over-sized coats and try to play out the stories in the book. No matter how 'accurate' they read the diaries, no matter how well the act out the roles, they simply will never be able to see or internalize the reality of being an adult because they simply lack the lived experience of being an adult. The words to them are the exact same words they are to an adult, but to the adult there are living worlds within those words that a child simple is unable to see, no matter how much they read the words, no matter how 'scholarly' they may become.

 

That said however, I still think it's pertinent for an adult to continue to use adult words in the hopes that with said lived experience the child will themselves become an adult and begin to understand the subtler meaning of the words, which becomes in effect a different reality altogether! Imagine if adults quick using their adult words because kids misused them? So they create a new language, the children learn that one and misuse them, and on it goes, ever given away the power to children to define words. Better to correct them in subtle ways, even if they can't yet get it. These aren't literal external objects, they are inner truths. A child doesn't understand that landscape yet.

 

Sorry to call them children, but if their foot doesn't fit in the shoe yet....

"Salvation" is probably the biggest buzzword used by christians - to the point where there is an immediate gut reaction to it, yet how many have you seen that have looked deeply, studied the concept itself?

Buzzwords in this context are really religious objects. Words are symbols, and these are connotation laden religious objects, just like a cross above an altar is. What the real issue is is not the symbol itself, but that the symbol to them becomes the substance of their religious experience. That symbol, that word, becomes the experience itself to them, instead of, it pointing to something within them.

 

To someone with an inner experience, the symbol becomes a vehicle, an aide, to help them move into that space in themselves. Then, the symbol is quite secondary to the reality of the experience itself. But to those whose experience is external, outside themselves, the symbol is everything. They cannot, are incapable yet of seeing it understood any other way than how they see it. They become married to that symbol, which includes beliefs themselves, as they are a set of symbols. In order for them to see beyond the symbols, to gaze at that single bright moon, it has to move to the inner experience. How best to facilitate that is the greater question.

 

From where I stand I personally ask, "what does it mean to an evolving species?"

Inner realization. With that comes seeing others as yourself. With that, comes peace.

 

Lastly.. I find it really sad that so many people think humans are so flawed, so horrible... especially when the evidence does not support that.. is there bad in the world? yes, is there good? Yes! How do we explain the good, as well as the evil? How does christianity explain the GOOD that is apparent in all people regardless of their religious affiliation? If we are 'born in sin' whence comes the fact that the vast majority of people are.. well.. not so bad? Even us heathen heretics    

Deva really hit the nail on the head when she keyed in on the all or nothing mentality of large segments of our population. We're either good or bad, right of wrong, etc. That doesn't just exist in religion either as you hear the same mentality thrown at religion being bad, because it has bad things that come from it.

 

As tragic as what happened at the school shootings is, I cannot agree with someone who calls that "evil". I do not personify acts of violence and attribute them to mythological entities. It was a diseased act, a pathology, a sickness of the body and mind that lead to such tragic and harmful actions. Seeing these in terms of good versus evil again is mythical thinking, attributing these events to 'forces' outside ourselves. And when someone thinks this way, you cannot get them to see otherwise until their conscious mind opens to greater understandings of reality.

 

As Emerson said so very well, "What we are, that only can we see".

[Ravenstar]

Yes...Deva, I think you are on to something

 

It's funny how things like black & white thinking, over-generalization, projection... etc... seem to be hallmarks of religious thinking. In psychology they are considered dysfunctional.

 

Laziness... I agree - but also, aren't buzzwords and such also used in cults to discourage independent thought? The knee-jerk automated responses spooks me... they use John 3:16 like a shield against any biblical criticism that way too.

 

Back on topic... 'omnipotent' or all powerful fits right in with this train of thought. They don't actually stop to consdier what it really means and what that might preclude. Even 'fine-tuned' is thrown about without any real definition, unless it's supports the belief that god is looking out for his special people. Is the universe MORE fine-tuned for the elite, I wonder?

[Ravenstar]

Again Antlerman you speak from within me.

 

" Buzzwords in this context is really a religious object. Words are symbols, and these are connotation laden religious objects, just like a cross above an altar is. What the real issue is is not the symbol itself, as any symbol can be found and substituted, but that the symbol to them becomes the substance of their religious experience. That symbol, that word, becomes the experience itself to them, instead of, it pointing to something within them. To someone with an inner experience, the symbol becomes a vehicle, an aide, to help them move into that space in themselves. Then, the symbol is quite secondary to the reality of the experience itself. But to those whose experience is external, outside themselves, the symbol is everything. They become married to that symbol, which includes beliefs themselves, as they are a set of symbols. In order for them to see beyond the symbols, to gaze at that single bright moon, it has to move to the inner experience. How best to facilitate that is the greater question."

 

That's idolatry!     (and superstition)

Hmm... reminds me of the work I've done in ceremonial and pagan magick. Symbols, words, archetypes, amulets, etc... until you enter the experience these things seem magickal, ARE magickal... but they aren't the essence, and they hold no power of their own - only what one imbues them with. I recently got rid of my 'tools' and other spiritual paraphernalia, as well as stopped performing 'spells' (rituals, if you will), my daughter asked me why.. I told her I didn't need them anymore - I had internalized them.

 

I always wondered about the way televangelists brandished the bible like a weapon. The wearing of the cross (if they only KNEW where it came from!  lol) the crucifix and other things... my reading of the Bible prohibited those things... but they've done that with the actual words, haven't they?

 

They are far more pagan than I think they know... I wonder if they know that medieval witches used scraps of scripture for spells, or that Ceremonial magicians use the very same prayers as incantations.. as well as the names of god and angels? That words hold power in that line of thinking.. in and of themselves.

 

I believe the word daemon once meant 'inspiration' - a personification of 'to be inspired by the spiritual'? At least that's how I saw Socrates use it.

 

I agree that we must continue to use the language we have to try to communicate truth. We are here, and we were once there...  how to facilitate it? I think we come back to education...again.

 

I also don't see people, such as Mr. Lanza, as 'evil' (except maybe for true psychopaths - but that could be a genetic illness we may one day be able to treat, or eliminate) I see them as damaged... and although we must protect society from them they also need our pity and help. From my experience most people who do terrible things have suffered some sort of deep damage, either from trauma or cultural and family dysfunction, usually early in childhood.