Is The Universe Finetuned For Life Or Is God Omnipotent?

[Badger]

 

"Besides, the definition of omnipotence I am using is actually pretty standard one."

 

Not seeing it actually... it either means ALL, or it doesn't. It's kind of a black or white word(prefix).

 

Well, it is standard definition in much of philosophy and theology.

[midniterider]

 

It certainly is logically possible to violate the laws of physics. To walk for a long time on water, for example, is not self-contradictory.

 

 

It certainly is most possible to make up false stories and pass them off as real occurrences. I havent seen anyone walk on water nor have you. Unless of course the water was on top of solid ground. :-)

[midniterider]

 

 

 

 

It certainly is logically possible to violate the laws of physics. To walk for a long time on water, for example, is not self-contradictory.

 

But the claim is not falsifiable. 

 

Is your claim falsifiable?

 

 

Which claim is that? 

 

Your claim that my the claim is not falsifiable.

 

 

Now you're just being obtuse.

 

Of course it's falsifiable.  You can show me your claim is indeed falsifiable, falsifying my claim.  I, OTH, can't show you that god can't walk on water because it supposedly happened 2,000 years ago and there is no evidence for it or against it (given it's a claim that physical law was temporarily suspended). Claims that are not falsifiable are logically and scientifically invalid.  

 

 

Jesus walked on water.

Cthulu water-skied across the Dead Sea a year later.

Neither is falsifiable therefore they both must have occurred. :-)

[midniterider]

Guys. This is so fun. No hard feelings!

 

Troll? Or Christian? Meh, whats the difference? :-)

[Badger]

 

It certainly is logically possible to violate the laws of physics. To walk for a long time on water, for example, is not self-contradictory.

 

It certainly is most possible to make up false stories and pass them off as real occurrences. I havent seen anyone walk on water nor have you. Unless of course the water was on top of solid ground. :-)

 

That, however, does not affect to what I said.

[falemon]

 

 

It certainly is logically possible to violate the laws of physics. To walk for a long time on water, for example, is not self-contradictory.

 

It certainly is most possible to make up false stories and pass them off as real occurrences. I havent seen anyone walk on water nor have you. Unless of course the water was on top of solid ground. :-)

 

That, however, does not affect to what I said.

 

And what you said does not affect what he said, which doesn't affect what you said ... damn, why is everything so darn complicated?

 

Let me ask you this Badger, at what point do you denounce logic and reason when you reach that certain precipice between logic & reason and faith where only one of them can survive?

 

What do you need to see to denounce Christianity?

 

Or better yet, what do you believe your belief is built upon. For example I believe you are a human being because for you not to be a human you would have to be a AI that is not only as intelligent as a human but has accumulated a life experience to be able to pass as a human. And next to not knowing anything else but what I know about entities capable of holding the conversation you do I conclude you are a human being.

 

I believe the Bible is false because it fails to give me any reason to believe it is the only source of truth, especially when there are more applicable sources that give more accurate accounts of the Universe and the human condition. It makes claims of being able to defy physics that it does not back up and so on. Though at the heart of it i believe the bible is false because it makes reference to an inconsistent God I know does not exist. An unjust God that is more unjust than Hitler. He destroys people for being rational. He refuses to prove he exists and demands people act as if he does. That is incredibly unjust.

 

I believe the Bible is false because it claims God can perform miracles and answer prayers, but does nothing short of either placebo or coincidence.

 

I believe the Bible is false because it instils cult mechanics and encourages ignorance more than knowledge and understanding (mostly in the new testament as the old testament did encourage wisdom in proverbs). But meh, I'm just being respectable to you and being as honest as I can. Mostly because you seem a decent person and your reasoning doesn't really sound like the reasoning of a Christian so you're not that bad to talk to. Though I have my own suspicions as to why you might be more open to exploring real truth, but I'm not going to insult you by suggesting you're de-converting on a subconscious level because that would be awfully presumptuous of me. Perhaps you just want to "save us", so must respect that you are here for your self.

[bornagainathiest]

Why should I care if they destroy the fine-tuning argument?

 

But thanks anyway. It sounds interesting.

 

Q.

And why should I care about these never-ending word games, these semantic shenningans and the playing of, 'let's re-define black to mean white until we're blue in the face', yet again?

 

A.

No reason 'why' that I can think of.

 

So, I'm outa here!

 

 

Byeeee!

 

BAA.

[Badger]

Let me ask you this Badger, at what point do you denounce logic and reason when you reach that certain precipice between logic & reason and faith where only one of them can survive?

 

What do you need to see to denounce Christianity?

 

Or better yet, what do you believe your belief is built upon.

 

This is an honest question. And I give you an honest answer. I am not sure. I think it would need to be a cogent proof to the effect that my beliefs yields to contradiction. My belief in God is in some way analogous with my belief in the existence of material things, my belief in free will, and my belief in other minds. It is not a belief I consciously choose to have. Instead, I find myself with it (as well as with those other beliefs I mentioned). It could certainly be a hard-wired illusion, though. The same is not true of being a Christian (at least not in same extent). I find myself doubting Christianity more often than God's existence. But I have grown up in Christian home, so Christianity is most familiar religion to me. I have no strong reasons to denounce it, and I think I have positive reason to accept it, namely, the resurrection of Jesus.

[BrotherJosh]

But I have grown up in Christian home, so Christianity is most familiar religion to me. I have no strong reasons to denounce it, and I think I have positive reason to accept it, namely, the resurrection of Jesus.

 

 

If you were born and raised in Syria, would you most likely (or statistically) be Muslim or Christian? 

[mymistake]

 I have no strong reasons to denounce it, and I think I have positive reason to accept it, namely, the resurrection of Jesus.

 

An assumption isn't a reason.

[Badger]

But I have grown up in Christian home, so Christianity is most familiar religion to me. I have no strong reasons to denounce it, and I think I have positive reason to accept it, namely, the resurrection of Jesus.

 

If you were born and raised in Syria, would you most likely (or statistically) be Muslim or Christian? 

 

If we do not assume that God could somehow cause my conversion to Christianity, then absolutely yes.

[BrotherJosh]

 

 

If we do not assume that God could somehow cause my conversion to Christianity, then absolutely yes.

 

 

Alright, so barring any divine influence you would most likely be Muslim, yes? Given you geographical location we can agree you are most likely going to be Muslim, right? Are you going to heaven? 

[Badger]

 I have no strong reasons to denounce it, and I think I have positive reason to accept it, namely, the resurrection of Jesus.

 

An assumption isn't a reason.

 

Sure it is. We do that all the time. My assumption that a store is open is reason to go there, if I need to, and my assumption that there is poison in that bottle is reason not to drink it. You can find infinite number other examples.

[Badger]

If we do not assume that God could somehow cause my conversion to Christianity, then absolutely yes.

 

 

Alright, so barring any divine influence you would most likely be Muslim, yes? Given you geographical location we can agree you are most likely going to be Muslim, right? Are you going to heaven?

 

Yes, I think so.

[mymistake]

 

 I have no strong reasons to denounce it, and I think I have positive reason to accept it, namely, the resurrection of Jesus.

 

An assumption isn't a reason.

 

Sure it is. We do that all the time. My assumption that a store is open is reason to go there, if I need to, and my assumption that there is poison in that bottle is reason not to drink it. You can find infinite number other examples.

 

 

My assumption that you are a witch is a reason to burn you at the stake.

 

My assumption that you are a terroist is a reason to toss you in Gitmo for the rest of your life.

 

Well, there is positive reason right there to take away your freedom and your very life.

[Badger]

 

 

 I have no strong reasons to denounce it, and I think I have positive reason to accept it, namely, the resurrection of Jesus.

 

An assumption isn't a reason.

 

Sure it is. We do that all the time. My assumption that a store is open is reason to go there, if I need to, and my assumption that there is poison in that bottle is reason not to drink it. You can find infinite number other examples.

 

 

My assumption that you are a witch is a reason to burn you at the stake.

 

My assumption that you are a terroist is a reason to toss you in Gitmo for the rest of your life.

 

Do you think so?

[BrotherJosh]

Yes, I think so.

Why?

[Badger]

Yes, I think so.

Why?

 

Why would I most likely be Muslim if I were born and raised in Syria? Because of the culture and my partents.

[falemon]

Hmm, regarding assumptions it's a big topic because first of all we must make assumptions and act on presumptions for much of our days. We do this in proportion with the cost of error, the volatility of the assumed state and the cost of updating knowledge of the state. So the presumption of someone being a witch is not equal to the assumption that a store is open. The cost of being wrong is just a hour or so of travel when compared to the death of an innocent life.

 

We often presume the trains will be running, but if we know that they are only 10% reliable then we will check status updates more often to a route that is 99.99% reliable, and so on...

[Badger]

Hmm, regarding assumptions it's a big topic because first of all we must make assumptions and act on presumptions for much of our days. We do this in proportion with the cost of error, the volatility of the assumed state and the cost of updating knowledge of the state. So the presumption of someone being a witch is not equal to the assumption that a store is open. The cost of being wrong is just a hour or so of travel when compared to the death of an innocent life.

 

We often presume the trains will be running, but if we know that they are only 10% reliable then we will check status updates more often to a route that is 99.99% reliable, and so on...

 

That is true. Assumptions are not enough in all and every case.

[BrotherJosh]

Why would I most likely be Muslim if I were born and raised in Syria? Because of the culture and my partents.

 

Alright, so due to your culture and parents you are most likely going to be Muslim. Are you going to go to heaven? 

[Deva]

 

But I have grown up in Christian home, so Christianity is most familiar religion to me. I have no strong reasons to denounce it, and I think I have positive reason to accept it, namely, the resurrection of Jesus.

 

If you were born and raised in Syria, would you most likely (or statistically) be Muslim or Christian? 

 

If we do not assume that God could somehow cause my conversion to Christianity, then absolutely yes.

 

 

Hey Badger: Would it then be safe to say that you believe in "free will" then?

 

Let's cut to the chase - just what kind of Christian are you?

[mymistake]

Hmm, regarding assumptions it's a big topic because first of all we must make assumptions and act on presumptions for much of our days. We do this in proportion with the cost of error, the volatility of the assumed state and the cost of updating knowledge of the state. So the presumption of someone being a witch is not equal to the assumption that a store is open. The cost of being wrong is just a hour or so of travel when compared to the death of an innocent life.

 

We often presume the trains will be running, but if we know that they are only 10% reliable then we will check status updates more often to a route that is 99.99% reliable, and so on...

 

 

Unlike Jesus Christ we actually know that trains exist and that it is possible for a train to get to a station around the time it should be there.  We know nothing of Christ.  We can't even show he existed let alone that the laws of physics were suspended in his case.  We have no reason to think the laws of physics can be suspended.

 

However if I can convince some people that assuming I speak for something like Jesus Christ means they have positive reason to do what I say then I can launch a Crusade and sack cities.  Many innocent lives were snuffed out for Christ.

[Deva]

 

His mighty voice only needed to dictate the conditions he cared about,

 

It occurs to me if he cares about things he is limited by his own sense of scruples and sense of taste too.  This unlimited thing is so constraining.  Xians would be better off if they just dropped it and took a different approach instead of playing the definition game. 

 

 

The "definition game" just shows how desperate the xian is.  This whole thread is nothing but a word game IMO. 

[Badger]

Why would I most likely be Muslim if I were born and raised in Syria? Because of the culture and my partents.

 

Alright, so due to your culture and parents you are most likely going to be Muslim. Are you going to go to heaven? 

 

If I were Muslim, I would likely believe that I am going to (their) heaven. I cannot say much more than that.