Is The Universe Finetuned For Life Or Is God Omnipotent?

[Badger]

If we do not assume that God could somehow cause my conversion to Christianity, then absolutely yes.

 

 

Hey Badger: Would it then be safe to say that you believe in "free will" then?

 

Let's cut to the chase - just what kind of Christian are you?

 

Yes. I believe that I have free will or freedom of choice (at least in general). What do you mean by what kind of Christian? I am a Protestant, but I do not belong to any denomination at the moment.

[BrotherJosh]

If I were Muslim, I would likely believe that I am going to (their) heaven. I cannot say much more than that.

 

So there are multiple heavens all based on each religion and systems of belief?

 

Edit: I see your wording. Okay, so you believe that the hypothetical you will believe you go to heaven, yes? But if the hypothetical you were real, would you? You mentioned if God intervened in your life and converted you, would you say that this person who's life God deemed to intervene in was chosen? What about other people who did not have that manner of intervention? Would you say that their culture and upbringing influenced their beliefs more than freewill? 

[Deva]

Badger - so I see you are a "non-denominational" variety. Hey, it just helps to know where you are coming from. What I mean by what kind of christian is that there are like 50,000 different denominations - then there are Roman Catholics, Orthodox and Coptic Christians. That is what I mean. Their beliefs are not the same.

[Badger]

If I were Muslim, I would likely believe that I am going to (their) heaven. I cannot say much more than that.

 

So there are multiple heavens all based on each religion and systems of belief?

 

I do not believe so. As a Christian, I believe in Christian concept of heaven (if any).

[BrotherJosh]

I do not believe so. As a Christian, I believe in Christian concept of heaven (if any).

 

See my edit, please.

[Badger]

Badger - so I see you are a "non-denominational" variety. Hey, it just helps to know where you are coming from. What I mean by what kind of christian is that there are like 50,000 different denominations - then there are Roman Catholics, Orthodox and Coptic Christians. That is what I mean. Their beliefs are not the same.

 

I see. There are basic tenets of Christianity, though.

[falemon]

 

This is an honest question. And I give you an honest answer. I am not sure. I think it would need to be a cogent proof to the effect that my beliefs yields to contradiction. My belief in God is in some way analogous with my belief in the existence of material things, my belief in free will, and my belief in other minds. It is not a belief I consciously choose to have. Instead, I find myself with it (as well as with those other beliefs I mentioned). It could certainly be a hard-wired illusion, though. The same is not true of being a Christian (at least not in same extent). I find myself doubting Christianity more often than God's existence. But I have grown up in Christian home, so Christianity is most familiar religion to me. I have no strong reasons to denounce it, and I think I have positive reason to accept it, namely, the resurrection of Jesus.

 

Okay I see, so on one hand you have a belief in God and on another you have the belief that Christianity is true.

 

The extent of ones belief is the depth of their knowledge of what it is they believe. So suppose a person who had never heard of God was told that there is a God and he agreed that he believed, you would agree that his belief is not much of a faithful belief as he believes in something to which the meaning is shallow.

 

Likewise the same can be said of ones belief of Christianity. I thought deep about what it is a actually believe because the more I read the Bible the more I realised I didn't even know to believe in the first place. There is a fundament difference between a belief gained from observation and a belief gained through learning "what to believe". That (being told what to believe) is a very easily exploited, manipulated and misinformed process of belief acquisition and does very little to bring a man towards truth. Where you say you have had no choice in a belief, that is not entirely true. You may not have made a decision to choose to believe that, but you do have the freedom to check every belief that you have about the world and the Universe at large, so no that statement isn't entirely true when you think about it.

 

Now with regards to your statement about denouncing your beliefs in the sight of a contradiction. As much as I believe you were honest in saying you would change do so you must understand the dynamics of self deception that allows a man to hold completely contradictory points of view. Intelligent people are particularly prone to this on more deep levels because they can happily learn several ways of looking at a situation, creating independent models of the world that allow you to switch contexts without effort. It allows you to accumulate conflicting information, thoughts and ideas which are compartmentalised so that conflicting thoughts do not mess with each other.

 

Now in terms of God and Christianity, I'm sure you would agree that a belief in Christianity typically implies a belief in God. Going back in time you find that that is not the case and instead a belief in Christianity might instead imply the presence of a greater wisdom, though that is a little digression.

 

Now a belief in God does not imply Christianity. A man should always understand his own understanding to free himself from deception and imprisonment.

 

I realised I only followed Christianity because I was born into Christianity. My denomination was pretty much the same thing, as were my interpretations of the Bible.

 

But then something hit me, and I guess I'll get back to that, but I'm sure you know that the NT consists of the Gospels, which are the accounts of apostles. But a majority of the NT comes from a later follower of Christ's followers, but that is not the problem, the problem is who, what and how the books of the Bible were selected. They were selected for the sole purpose of an emperor wanting the Church to follow a single belief, but did so by choosing a canon (selection of books and letters). There were many letters saying so many different things about Jesus and the Church. Everything believed today was not believed by the majority of Christians so I just find it incredibly disturbing that that is the case. It's disturbing that people know this, and blindly accept the choice of authors.

 

Now the question I always have is this, of all the many accounts of events, of which there are many false and true claims, what do any of the Bible books do to justify its assertions? You say your belief is in Jesus, but my question is this, even if Jesus did exist why do you blindly only the descriptions given to you. Jesus could have just been a normal dude from China but because an Roman Emperor decided he'll pick the books that you will eventually read, you just blindly accept what he chose for you to believe

 

To be honest my window closed and most of what I wrote got lost, so I cannot remember what nourishing questions I had for you. My apologies if this is not as useful as it should have been. For questions, I would then ask, how do you go about finding actual truth and also discerning fact from fiction? And are you willing to dig deep into Christianity to fully know it, reading other gospels and letters of early Christianity to know more about the God you claim to serve? Because if they refer to the true God I am sure he would not want people to blindly accept what another person has said about him as unquestionable truth.

[falemon]

 

If I were Muslim, I would likely believe that I am going to (their) heaven. I cannot say much more than that.

 

So there are multiple heavens all based on each religion and systems of belief?

 

I do not believe so. As a Christian, I believe in Christian concept of heaven (if any).

 

This "Christian" concept of heaven, where does it come from? Is it mentioned in the OT? Are these from Jesus' words? Paul's words?

 

Who wrote those books, how can you find out who wrote them? And what else was written about heaven and hell?

[Badger]

If I were Muslim, I would likely believe that I am going to (their) heaven. I cannot say much more than that.

 

So there are multiple heavens all based on each religion and systems of belief?

 

Edit: I see your wording. Okay, so you believe that the hypothetical you will believe you go to heaven, yes? But if the hypothetical you were real, would you? You mentioned if God intervened in your life and converted you, would you say that this person who's life God deemed to intervene in was chosen? What about other people who did not have that manner of intervention? Would you say that their culture and upbringing influenced their beliefs more than freewill? 

 

Such a hard questions, Josh. My belief is that God gives everyone an optimal opportunity to be saved.

[Deva]

Most protestants I have seen would say that everyone that doesn't believe in Jesus is going to hell. Then again, who knows - Christianity is all over the place with this question. Furthermore, the Bible never gives a measure of how much faith it takes to be "saved".  

 

Anyone can say anything and have some variety of "Christian" believing it.

[Badger]

falemon, I appreciate your comments. I am not going to defend my beliefs here and now. I am not under illusion that I could prove to you that my beliefs are true or even plausible, and, frankly, I do not have any need to do that. You guys asked questions and I answered to them as best I could.

[falemon]

Badger I am not attacking you at all so there's no corner that needs to be defended. I only asked you these questions because we were in a conversation and I'd much rather interact than just air my mind, I've got a blog for that.

 

I wouldn't need you to prove your beliefs are true, that is between you and reality.

 

You also don't seem afraid to have these discussions, but look, you know who we are and where we've come from so you should expect things that may challenge your beliefs. And you seem willing to challenge them.

 

Your beliefs can be changed but it would be unfair for me to just do that without your permission to do so, so chillax dude

[Badger]

I did not find your questions aggressive, falemon. I just wanted to make it clear that I see no point in trying to convince you (or anyone else). I have no need to defend myself. So everything is O.K. here. A good conversation is about sharing our beliefs, and not about trying to change others mind. (Yes, I know I am provocative sometimes.) I am open to that.

[BrotherJosh]

Such a hard questions, Josh. My belief is that God gives everyone an optimal opportunity to be saved

 

Okay, so God gives everyone the optimal opportunity to be saved. Still, you believe in the resurrection of Jesus Christ, correct? What was the success of such a sacrifice if those of other beliefs and religions are still given optimal opportunities? 

 

Example: China went without major Christian influences for close to 1500 years. Are the people who lived and died throughout that time period outside of the optimal opportunities since in John 14:6 Jesus states, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." Cross References: Acts 4:12, Matthew 11:27, John 1:4, John 1:17, Romans 5:2, II John 1:9,  Revelation 20:15. I can quote quite a few more that demonstrate that we, Christians, approach God the Father through Christ. 

 

All of these verses indicate that we have eternal life through Christ, however, those without belief in Christ are lost:

 

I John 5:11-12, "And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son does not have life."

 

So if we are afforded optimal opportunity to believe in the Father through the Son, how can we believe in the Son if we haven't even heard of the Son? Please reference China, or any other community that went decades and centuries without hearing about Christianity.

 

Edit: Additionally, if people are given an ample opportunity to become Christian, or know the Father, does that mean they hear the Gospel, or not? If they don't hear the gospel, how do they approach the Father without Christ? For of the Bible's own admission we know that the Gospel has not reached everyone...

 

Matthew 28:16-20, "Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain Jesus had told them to go. When they say him they worshiped him; but some doubted. Then Jesus came to them and said, 'All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me'. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. And teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

 

So, as we can see, Jesus commanded his disciples to go out and proselytize. If God gives optimal opportunity to everyone, why the need to preach? If God provides the optimal opportunity via the preachers at the right time and place, why did so many peoples go without for so many generations? Are those generations lost to hell?

[falemon]

I did not find your questions aggressive, falemon. I just wanted to make it clear that I see no point in trying to convince you (or anyone else). I have no need to defend myself. So everything is O.K. here. A good conversation is about sharing our beliefs, and not about trying to change others mind. (Yes, I know I am provocative sometimes.) I am open to that.

To be honest those are questions that all true Christians should be asking.

 

At the start of this year I attended a workshop by a group of Christians with totally different interpretations of the Bible. Their teachings were that Jesus, like many others before him, failed. They taught that Jesus was supposed to establish the Kingdom (making reference to the prophecies) and that because he did not fulfil his role that that was the reason for the second coming.

 

They taught a lot of conflicting ideas, but it was interesting to be challenged by them because it led to me digging deeper into the core of Christianity.

 

They have a practice of teaching people to be messengers (aka Messiah or Christ). That alone required a great deal of fact finding. I didn't realise until that point that Christ / Messiah just meant messenger.

 

Well suffice to say I concluded that to be a Christian I had to begin digging deeper into more esoteric avenues which included the dead sea scrolls and just about any other artefact of Christianity.

 

That path of searching for truth eventually led to my de-conversion, but the point I learned still sticks, that in order to truly practice Christianity requires the denial of everything you've been told about it, especially things told by people who haven't bothered to research. Once I de-converted I wanted to go and visit all the other churches that were pretty much forbidden, such as my friends church that had invited me to the workshop, to Jehovah's Witness churches and just everything that was an expression of my new found freedom.

 

I've been too busy to do that, or rather I've not prioritised the visits at this busy period of my life, but I'm really loving the freedom to connect with the world, with the Universe with all things I want to in my own way. Being free to reach out and touch objects in the realm of true reality. It is not until you let go that you can truly embrace reality, a message my subconscious was trying to tell me for years.

 

Now it really was like stepping outside into the real world after binging on video games in an artificially lit room with no sunlight. The world became just a little more brighter, just that little bit sharper in appearance. My experience was just that little bit fuller, my heart, my love was just that little bit (in fact phenomenally) more vibrant than anything I had felt before. Everything I experienced was real, and now I understand 1 Cor 13, now I see as truly as I am fully known

 

Well that was my experience.

[Badger]

Okay, so God gives everyone the optimal opportunity to be saved. Still, you believe in the resurrection of Jesus Christ, correct? What was the success of such a sacrifice if those of other beliefs and religions are still given optimal opportunities? 

 

Example: China went without major Christian influences for close to 1500 years. Are the people who lived and died throughout that time period outside of the optimal opportunities since in John 14:6 Jesus states, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." Cross References: Acts 4:12, Matthew 11:27, John 1:4, John 1:17, Romans 5:2, II John 1:9,  Revelation 20:15. I can quote quite a few more that demonstrate that we, Christians, approach God the Father through Christ. 

 

All of these verses indicate that we have eternal life through Christ, however, those without belief in Christ are lost:

 

I John 5:11-12, "And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son does not have life."

 

So if we are afforded optimal opportunity to believe in the Father through the Son, how can we believe in the Son if we haven't even heard of the Son? Please reference China, or any other community that went decades and centuries without hearing about Christianity.

 

 

I do not think that explicit faith in Christ in this life is necessary for salvation. (His atoning death is.) For example, in the case of children and those who have not had the chance to hear about Jesus. It is, however, an effective means for obtaining savation for those who hear the good news.

[falemon]

 

Okay, so God gives everyone the optimal opportunity to be saved. Still, you believe in the resurrection of Jesus Christ, correct? What was the success of such a sacrifice if those of other beliefs and religions are still given optimal opportunities? 

 

Example: China went without major Christian influences for close to 1500 years. Are the people who lived and died throughout that time period outside of the optimal opportunities since in John 14:6 Jesus states, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." Cross References: Acts 4:12, Matthew 11:27, John 1:4, John 1:17, Romans 5:2, II John 1:9,  Revelation 20:15. I can quote quite a few more that demonstrate that we, Christians, approach God the Father through Christ. 

 

All of these verses indicate that we have eternal life through Christ, however, those without belief in Christ are lost:

 

I John 5:11-12, "And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son does not have life."

 

So if we are afforded optimal opportunity to believe in the Father through the Son, how can we believe in the Son if we haven't even heard of the Son? Please reference China, or any other community that went decades and centuries without hearing about Christianity.

 

 

I do not think that explicit faith in Christ in this life is necessary for salvation. (His atoning death is.) For example, in the case of children and those who have not had the chance to hear about Jesus. It is, however, an effective means for obtaining savation for those who hear the good news.

 

How can it be fair for a man to be presented with eternal damnation because he was not convinced by the phrase, "Jesus died for your sins"? I mean, what in that statement is any more convincing than, "Prophet Muhammad is the last voice of God and Jesus was not His Son, God had no Son"?

 

Bearing in mind that prior to Christianity there was no concept of eternal damnation and hell. That was introduced with Christianity and came from the Greek concept of Hade's underworld. The Book of Revelation itself, well, its interesting that so many churches today take for granted their blind acceptance for the "hell for unbelievers" doctrine when its only been accepted for about 150 years, along with the literal translation of the Revelation.

 

Having said that you never even mentioned hell so that was awfully presumptuous of me to mention it.

 

Still, isn't it clear to see the injustice here, being judged on whether we blindly accept the phrase of a stranger about the ultimate truth of all things without giving us any reason to believe it whatsoever

[BrotherJosh]

I do not think that explicit faith in Christ in this life is necessary for salvation. (His atoning death is.) For example, in the case of children and those who have not had the chance to hear about Jesus. It is, however, an effective means for obtaining savation for those who hear the good news.

 

Can you site a verse that says explicitly that those who haven't heard the good news don't need faith in Christ? Also, with children is there an age cut off of when they need to have faith in Christ to go to heaven? Since myself, and others here, have heard the Good News and don't believe in it does that mean we are going to hell? 

 

Would you say that Universalism appeals to you? If it doesn't would you say some are chosen, and others are not? 

[Ravenstar]

Saved from what?

[Badger]

Can you site a verse that says explicitly that those who haven't heard the good news don't need faith in Christ?

 

You presumably know that I cannot.

 

Also, with children is there an age cut off of when they need to have faith in Christ to go to heaven? 

 

Perhaps there is, but cannot tell you what that age is.

 

Since myself, and others here, have heard the Good News and don't believe in it does that mean we are going to hell?

 

It is not my business to judge anyone.

 

Would you say that Universalism appeals to you? If it doesn't would you say some are chosen, and others are not?

 

I would not consider myself as an universalist. According to the Bible some are chosen (and others not), but I am not sure exactly what that means.

[BrotherJosh]

You presumably know that I cannot.

Okay.

Perhaps there is, but cannot tell you what that age is.

Okay. 

It is not my business to judge anyone.

Nor mine. Still, I don't have a belief system that presumes to assign people to consequences based not wholly on their own conscious decisions. 

 

I would not consider myself as an universalist. According to the Bible some are chosen (and others not), but I am not sure exactly what that means.

 

Earlier, you mentioned your belief in free will, correct? Would God choosing people violate the concept of free will? Should we then resort to Calvinism? How do we attain atonement through Christ, if God chooses you? Since Jesus died for sin, was it only the sins of the chosen (the Elect), or everyone? Do those not chosen suffer the wrath of God? If not, what's the difference between being chosen and not chosen? If the not chosen don't suffer the wrath of God, what's the difference between being chosen and not chosen? Are the chosen and not chosen predestined? 

 

Edit: Additionally, you assert that God gives optimal opportunity to everyone. How is this opportunity possible if we have already been chosen? If we have been chosen there is no opportunity, and our fate is left to God. 

 

Given your scenario we only have the illusion of opportunity "since according to the Bible some are chosen." 

 

Romans 9:18, "Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden."

 

1 Peter 2:8, "And, He is the stone that makes people stumble, the rock that makes them fall. They stumble because they do not obey God's word, and so they meet the fate that was planned for them."

[Antlerman]

To answer the mystery, no Badger is not OrdinaryClay or any other person I think he sounds like. I remember him from long ago. No IP matches here.

 

So without me taking the time out of my life to read through all of this, what exactly is the point in thinking we need Jesus as you understand him? Have you seen something that we seem to be missing in living our lives that you feel you compelled to tell us your way as the way to all happiness for all souls everywhere? Were you given some actual individual insight into these people where you feel you have the Answers with a capital A, and are somehow not on the same path of trying to figure things out for yourself equally with the rest of us?

 

Humility does not seem a key quality of most apologists.....

[Badger]

So without me taking the time out of my life to read through all of this, what exactly is the point in thinking we need Jesus as you understand him? Have you seen something that we seem to be missing in living our lives that you feel you compelled to tell us your way as the way to all happiness for all souls everywhere? Were you given some actual individual insight into these people where you feel you have the Answers with a capital A, and are somehow not on the same path of trying to figure things out for yourself equally with the rest of us?

 

All that you say about me is unjustified and not based on anything I have actually said or even implied.

[Ravenstar]

I don't see what Antlerman said as any kind of accusation or judgment Badger, it's an inquiry to ascertain what your position is and the reasoning behind it.

 

You stated something about salvation in Jesus. I asked 'saved from what?' Antlerman asked basically the same question, in his own way. (sorry, need a coffee before I go a-quoting).

 

That's how I read it, anyway.

[Badger]

I don't see what Antlerman said as any kind of accusation or judgment Badger, it's an inquiry to ascertain what your position is and the reasoning behind it.

 

It sounds as if Antlerman is presuming that he knows anything about me.