Is The Universe Finetuned For Life Or Is God Omnipotent?

[Badger]

Proof? You didn't give any proof either. But let me ask this: are logical contradictions possible?

 

 

Of course, in the human mind.

 

What does it mean for logical contradictions being possible in human mind? I do not know. Do you agree that (say) a perfect circle cannot have four right angles? We cannot imagine such a concept.

[Deva]

 

Proof? You didn't give any proof either. But let me ask this: are logical contradictions possible?

 

 

Of course, in the human mind.

 

What does it mean for logical contradictions being possible in human mind? I do not know. Do you agree that (say) a perfect circle cannot have four right angles? We cannot imagine such a concept.

 

 

You can conceive of such a thing, otherwise you would not have been able to express it. 

[mymistake]

 

Show me a concept of omnipotence that isn't absurd.

 

Maximal power. That is, power to do anything which does not yield logical contradiction.

 

 

You mean it works like the 10th amendment?  Again I ask, show me a concept of omnipotence that isn't absurd.

[Badger]

 

 

Proof? You didn't give any proof either. But let me ask this: are logical contradictions possible?

 

 

Of course, in the human mind.

 

What does it mean for logical contradictions being possible in human mind? I do not know. Do you agree that (say) a perfect circle cannot have four right angles? We cannot imagine such a concept.

 

 

You can conceive of such a thing, otherwise you would not have been able to express it. 

 

 

No, seriously, we cannot create or form a perfect circle with four right angles in the mind. We are able to express it because we know the concepts of circle and square.

[Badger]

You mean it works like the 10th amendment?  Again I ask, show me a concept of omnipotence that isn't absurd.

 

I already did. If you are not happy with it, that is not my problem. But it is not absurd (at least you have not shown it is).

[midniterider]

 

I think you misunderstood me. An omnipotent God cannot create pancakes by following (say) ratatouille recipe. Then he would get ratatouille and not pancakes. To create pancakes that are not pancakes is not anything to do; it is contradiction. God cannot do anything logically contradictory.

 

 

If he cannot do anything whether contradictory or not, he is not all powerful.

[Deva]

 

 

 

Proof? You didn't give any proof either. But let me ask this: are logical contradictions possible?

 

 

Of course, in the human mind.

 

What does it mean for logical contradictions being possible in human mind? I do not know. Do you agree that (say) a perfect circle cannot have four right angles? We cannot imagine such a concept.

 

 

You can conceive of such a thing, otherwise you would not have been able to express it. 

 

 

No, seriously, we cannot create or form a perfect circle with four right angles in the mind. We are able to express it because we know the concepts of circle and square.

 

Disagree. You can form it in your mind just because you know the concepts. You can use your imagination. It is contradictory, but if you cannot see that this is all a product of the human mind, I don't think I can say anything further. These concepts do not come in from some mysterious outside source.

[mymistake]

 

You mean it works like the 10th amendment?  Again I ask, show me a concept of omnipotence that isn't absurd.

 

I already did. If you are not happy with it, that is not my problem. But it is not absurd (at least you have not shown it is).

 

 

Absolute power with boilerplate fine print?  Omnipotence is not valid where prohibited by law?  So let me get this strait - Chuck Norris proclaimed: "The powers not yielding logical contradiction are reserved for the Flying Spaghetti Monster or to the people".  You have not provided a form of omnipotence that is not absurd.  The limitations (contradiction) prevent it from being all power.  We might as well say that you have that kind of omnipotence because you have all the power that does not lead to a contradiction.  I'm omnipotent.  My dog is omnipotent.  Ants have all the power that does not cause logical contradiction.  Snails have all the power they can have without causing contradiction.  Germs are omnipotent.  When cops put handcuffs on a suspect that suspect has less power than they did without handcuffs but either way the suspect is still equally omnipotent in both conditions because it's a contradiction to move handcuffs through a solid arm.

 

Can't you see that your definition is meaningless?  So can we agree that omnipotence is absurd?  This was basically DarkAntic's point.  The idea of fine tuning is contrary to omnipotence.

[Badger]

Disagree. You can form it in your mind just because you know the concepts. You can use your imagination. It is contradictory, but if you cannot see that this is all a product of the human mind, I don't think I can say anything further. These concepts do not come in from some mysterious outside source.

 

I have to inform you that contradictions are not possible in logic. That is, there is no a possible world where (say) a perfect circle with four right angles is true. But this in turn means that the principles of logic (like non-contradiction) are necessary truths. They are not products of the human mind. Logic is, in a sense, created by man like physics, although neither physical laws are products of the human mind.

[Badger]

So let me get this strait - Chuck Norris proclaimed: "The powers not yielding logical contradiction are reserved for the Flying Spaghetti Monster or to the people".  You have not provided a form of omnipotence that is not absurd.  The limitations (contradiction) prevent it from being all power. 

 

Logically contradictory tasks cannot be brought about any possible being. (An incoherent act-description does not present a possible candidate for action, remember?) So no being could surpass God by possessing the ability to perform them.

 

We might as well say that you have that kind of omnipotence because you have all the power that does not lead to a contradiction.  I'm omnipotent.  My dog is omnipotent.  Ants have all the power that does not cause logical contradiction.  Snails have all the power they can have without causing contradiction.  Germs are omnipotent.  When cops put handcuffs on a suspect that suspect has less power than they did without handcuffs but either way the suspect is still equally omnipotent in both conditions because it's a contradiction to move handcuffs through a solid arm.

 

None of those has maximal power.

[Deva]

 

Disagree. You can form it in your mind just because you know the concepts. You can use your imagination. It is contradictory, but if you cannot see that this is all a product of the human mind, I don't think I can say anything further. These concepts do not come in from some mysterious outside source.

 

I have to inform you that contradictions are not possible in logic. That is, there is no a possible world where (say) a perfect circle with four right angles is true. But this in turn means that the principles of logic (like non-contradiction) are necessary truths. They are not products of the human mind. Logic is, in a sense, created by man like physics, although neither physical laws are products of the human mind.

 

Both logic and illogic are products of human thought.   There is no such thing as Truth with a capital "T".

[Badger]

Both logic and illogic are products of human thought.   There is no such thing as Truth with a capital "T".

 

Is that Truth?

[mymistake]

 

So let me get this strait - Chuck Norris proclaimed: "The powers not yielding logical contradiction are reserved for the Flying Spaghetti Monster or to the people".  You have not provided a form of omnipotence that is not absurd.  The limitations (contradiction) prevent it from being all power. 

 

Logically contradictory tasks cannot be brought about any possible being. (An incoherent act-description does not present a possible candidate for action, remember?) So no being could surpass God by possessing the ability to perform them.

 

Surpass who?  What God?  Do you see the absurdity yet?  Let me spell it out.  You are using rules that eliminate omnipotence.

 

 

We might as well say that you have that kind of omnipotence because you have all the power that does not lead to a contradiction.  I'm omnipotent.  My dog is omnipotent.  Ants have all the power that does not cause logical contradiction.  Snails have all the power they can have without causing contradiction.  Germs are omnipotent.  When cops put handcuffs on a suspect that suspect has less power than they did without handcuffs but either way the suspect is still equally omnipotent in both conditions because it's a contradiction to move handcuffs through a solid arm.

 

None of those has maximal power.

 

 

Of course they do.  The snail has maximal power within all the constraints placed upon it by the laws of physics.  Snails are just like your imaginary God.  God can't do what is beyond logic.  The snail can't do what is beyond logic.  Snails cannot fly because they have no means to overcome gravity to that degree and without such a means it is illogical to fly against gravity.  But the snail doesn't care because he is still omnipotent with his maximal power.

[Badger]

Surpass who?  What God?  Do you see the absurdity yet?  Let me spell it out.  You are using rules that eliminate omnipotence.

 

The concept of (theistic) God. And what rules, exactly?

 

Of course they do.  The snail has maximal power within all the constraints placed upon it by the laws of physics.  Snails are just like your imaginary God.  God can't do what is beyond logic.  The snail can't do what is beyond logic.  Snails cannot fly because they have no means to overcome gravity to that degree and without such a means it is illogical to fly against gravity.  But the snail doesn't care because he is still omnipotent with his maximal power.

 

No. Being constrained by physical laws is not maximal power. Maximal power is the power to do anything which does not yield logical contradiction. Please, do not confuse physical possibility and logical possibility.

[mymistake]

 

Surpass who?  What God?  Do you see the absurdity yet?  Let me spell it out.  You are using rules that eliminate omnipotence.

 

The concept of (theistic) God. And what rules, exactly?

 

 

The ones in your previous post.  "Logically contradictory tasks cannot be brought about any possible being. (An incoherent act-description does not present a possible candidate for action, remember?)"

 

 

Of course they do.  The snail has maximal power within all the constraints placed upon it by the laws of physics.  Snails are just like your imaginary God.  God can't do what is beyond logic.  The snail can't do what is beyond logic.  Snails cannot fly because they have no means to overcome gravity to that degree and without such a means it is illogical to fly against gravity.  But the snail doesn't care because he is still omnipotent with his maximal power.

 

No. Being constrained by physical laws is not maximal power. Maximal power is the power to do anything which does not yield logical contradiction. Please, do not confuse physical possibility and logical possibility.

 

 

Can this maximal power God send a flood to cover the whole Earth yet leave no trace?  Of course not because that would be a logical contradiction.  Being able to do what is physically impossible is a logical contradiction.  And it's the same all the way down the list.  You can't have people walking on water or virgin births or making all of creation from nothing or returning a human to life long after death via non-natural means.  It's all a logical contradiction if it's impossible.  You lose the whole smash.  Omnipotence is mutually exclusive to the laws of logic you quote the same way omnipotence is mutually exclusive to fine tuning.

 

Look if you can't hold your own then I'm going to bow out.  This is like playing chess with a pigeon.  *My imaginary friend has all the powers!!!!!!*  You go have fun with your God.

[Badger]

 

The concept of (theistic) God. And what rules, exactly?

 

The ones in your previous post.  "Logically contradictory tasks cannot be brought about any possible being. (An incoherent act-description does not present a possible candidate for action, remember?)"

 

 

 

 

 

How nothing can eliminate something?

 

Can this maximal power God send a flood to cover the whole Earth yet leave no trace?  Of course not because that would be a logical contradiction.  Being able to do what is physically impossible is a logical contradiction.  And it's the same all the way down the list.  You can't have people walking on water or virgin births or making all of creation from nothing or returning a human to life long after death via non-natural means.  It's all a logical contradiction if it's impossible.  You lose the whole smash.  Omnipotence is mutually exclusive to the laws of logic you quote the same way omnipotence is mutually exclusive to fine tuning.

 

Oh God, you do not know basic concepts. A logical possibility is anything not self-contradictory. This is not the same as physical possibility. Something is physically possible if it is permitted by the laws of physics and impossible if it is not.

[mymistake]

 

 

The concept of (theistic) God. And what rules, exactly?

 

The ones in your previous post.  "Logically contradictory tasks cannot be brought about any possible being. (An incoherent act-description does not present a possible candidate for action, remember?)"

 

 

 

 

 

How nothing can eliminate something?

 

Not nothing.  Not something.

 

The rules of logic eliminate omnipotence.  You have the rules somehow appear and then magicaly the Max Power Diety appears and eats up all the power that was not blocked by the rules.  What is the mechanism?  Why?  It just is because that is how you dreamed it up.  But having the rules above the omnipotent . . . ah forget it.  If you can't see why this is absurd . . .

 

 

 

Can this maximal power God send a flood to cover the whole Earth yet leave no trace?  Of course not because that would be a logical contradiction.  Being able to do what is physically impossible is a logical contradiction.  And it's the same all the way down the list.  You can't have people walking on water or virgin births or making all of creation from nothing or returning a human to life long after death via non-natural means.  It's all a logical contradiction if it's impossible.  You lose the whole smash.  Omnipotence is mutually exclusive to the laws of logic you quote the same way omnipotence is mutually exclusive to fine tuning.

 

Oh God, you do not know basic concepts. A logical possibility is anything not self-contradictory. This is not the same as physical possibility. Something is physically possible if it is permitted by the laws of physics and impossible if it is not.

 

 

If I say a saw is a tool that does not mean that I think all tools are saws.  Are you ready to admit that this God of yours is a figment of your imagination?  If you want your God to be real and you want your God's deeds to be real then it all must be physically possible.  Otherwise your max power God is floating in the same realm as Luke Skywalker and Bella the newborn vampire mother. 

[Vigile]

 

 

If there was an almighty god he could just snap his fingers and poof, instant perfectly balanced world containing life. No fine tuning necessary.

 

Devil's advocate for a moment: An all powerful super god could just snap his fingers and the universe would be instantly tuned.  Tuned is our word, not his. 

 

I personally just don't think the analogy the guy used in the vid was all that compelling, though he does drive a pretty cool car. 

[Vigile]

 

If God had the power to make it any way he wanted to then this universe is not fine tuned.

 

 

Why?  If this god made the laws in the first place, he made everything as he intended.

 

I just don't see how this OP video traps a magical god.  It ends up an argument of semantics rather than a slam dunk. Or maybe I'm too dim to see it. That's certainly a possibility. 

[Vigile]

Where does "logic" come from then, if it isn't from the human mind? Proof please.

 

The limitations of physical law.  For example, numbers may be a symbolic human construct, but there will always be a certain number of apples in one's hand if that's the question. 

[Vigile]

 

Show me a concept of omnipotence that isn't absurd.

 

Maximal power. That is, power to do anything which does not yield logical contradiction.

 

 

Then he's limited by the rules of logic.  That's not omni-power, that's limited power. 

 

Moreover, an all-powerful god is not limited by something as silly as the notion of forgiveness and sacrifice.  Even we weak ass humans can forgive without killing something. 

[Badger]

Not nothing.  Not something.

 

The rules of logic eliminate omnipotence.  You have the rules somehow appear and then magicaly the Max Power Diety appears and eats up all the power that was not blocked by the rules.  What is the mechanism?  Why?  It just is because that is how you dreamed it up.  But having the rules above the omnipotent . . . ah forget it.  If you can't see why this is absurd . . .

 

What you are instisting is that maximal power is not maximal power; that there is power greater than greatest possible power. Do not you see why this is absurd?

 

If you want your God to be real and you want your God's deeds to be real then it all must be physically possible.

 

Why?

[Badger]

Then he's limited by the rules of logic.  That's not omni-power, that's limited power. 

 

Omnipotence means maximal power and maximal power is the greatest possible power.

[Vigile]

 

Then he's limited by the rules of logic.  That's not omni-power, that's limited power. 

 

Omnipotence means maximal power and maximal power is the greatest possible power.

 

 

Omni means all, not max, as in 'all powerful'. That means he has the power to overrule logic, which he supposedly created or he can't, in which case, he is not all powerful.  You're having trouble with the concept because you are defending the indefensible.  It's clearly nonsensical. 

 

Matthew 19:26

English Standard Version (ESV)

²⁶ But Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

[bornagainathiest]

Here you go, Badger!

 

http://prd.aps.org/abstract/PRD/v83/i11/e115020

 

Other universes with other, radically-different, dimensionless constants are quite possible... and probable. 

Just as the Big Bang, Cosmic Inflation, Dark matter and Dark energy were once considered quite possible and probable... before they were confirmed as real. 

 

Perhaps the Theist's in another universe would say theirs is Fine-Tuned as well? 

 

BAA.