LifeCycle Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Well thought out and well written, Deny. I had no idea that you had been out of the cult for so long. Thank you, True. I'm glad I found this letter. It's in 2003 that "ex-christian" became my new identity. When I realized that there was no such thing as a personal relationship with Jesus-God-Spirit, I also realized that there was not such thing as a true Christian, and that Christianity was a lie, the biggest lie I had ever been told. The next 9 years were the most depressing of my life. I should have joined ex-christian.net years ago. Sorry to hear of your depression.... I battled with it for only about a month... But I was lucky to have other friends that are not believers either. So I've been able to communicate my emotions to them. It's been very helpful. I think things would be severely different had I not had them to share thoughts with. I'm still new to all of this though... It was only August of 2012 that I realized I was no longer a believer. I do think though, that the depression could seep back in, depending on how my loved ones receive and respond to my de-conversion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurari Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 I know how you feel. I had a very deep personal relationship with Jesus, and I had many blessings in my life. He was my comfort, my joy, my savior, my guide, my best friend, my lover. But I could not get past the fact that I as blessed and many others were not. People who didn't deserve to be left without divine care and love. My prayers didn't alleviate their troubles or prevent them. Like the pastor of my last church, who actually was one of the sweetest, kindest, hardest working, and gentlest human beings to ever walk the talk was struck by a severe paralytic stroke that made it so he could no longer speak and forced him to give up caring for others and his position as a pastor. This was a guy who has pretty much moved mountains to help poor folk get the help they needed in our community. It is his passion in life. He didn't care if they were atheist or pagan or whatever. If you needed him, he was there simply because you were hurting and he wouldn't press a sermon on you for it. He very much believed in a god of love. WHY?! Why won't God protect his hardest working and most devout from things like that? THAT could have easily been prevented by God. There are no gods. When I realized my "personal relationship" with Jesus was fake and just me talking to myself, I cried. But then I realized my personal relationship with everything good about ME was still real. I still have that. I can still create those feelings of love, joy, contentment, and feeling secure like I did back then. Took me a while and a lot of practice to get it back, but I have. Not that Christians believe me. It's not possible to remain devout to a lie and acknowledge someone willingly walked away from it without it being a ploy by the devil, denial, or never being a "true" Christian. But thankfully, I've got everyone here, including you and a lot of others who know exactly what I'm talking about. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilith666 Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 That whole Jesus wants a relationship with you thing - creeps me out, like he is some sort of stalker or something Ew Made me want to take out an order of protection Yep...."I'm in a relationship with Jesus!" I was looking at Valentine cards dedicated to him: "Jesus is my first love," and the like. They really do take this bride-of-Christ thing seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denyoz Posted February 14, 2013 Author Share Posted February 14, 2013 That whole Jesus wants a relationship with you thing - creeps me out, like he is some sort of stalker or something Ew Made me want to take out an order of protection Yep...."I'm in a relationship with Jesus!" I was looking at Valentine cards dedicated to him: "Jesus is my first love," and the like. They really do take this bride-of-Christ thing seriously. To whom would they send such a card? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
◊ crazyguy123 ◊ Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 That whole Jesus wants a relationship with you thing - creeps me out, like he is some sort of stalker or something Ew Made me want to take out an order of protection Yep...."I'm in a relationship with Jesus!" I was looking at Valentine cards dedicated to him: "Jesus is my first love," and the like. They really do take this bride-of-Christ thing seriously. To whom would they send such a card? They would be sending Valentine cards to a psycho who ignores them most of the time. Ah, such an abusive relationship Christians would be in if he was real... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oddbird1963 Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 Great letter! Very well written. Honest, sincere, and thorough. I think those three pastors started to read it, had all their long-suppressed and repressed fears and doubts awakened and quickly shoved it to the bottom of their "in" box or just threw the letter away. The honesty and realism of your words is potent stuff. Those pastors probably quickly became busy dong "ministry work" in an effort to quiet the cognitive dissonance and re-suppress and re-repress their smoldering fears and doubts. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wanderinstar Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 Brilliant letter! It captures the depth of the sincerity of most ex-christians faith prior to deconverting. This also demonstrates just how devastating it is to believe in such a relationship, invest so much energy, love and time into it then find out it was all a lie and deception. Christians take our hurt and anger as evidence we 'sinned' and are now separated from god as they simply cannot conceive the idea that god would betray a genuine, devout believer like this. I sought god wholeheartedly as so many here did and while I was in the thick of it I would never have conceded that there was no god to have a relationship, despite the lack of real conversation or intimacy. It still saddens me how easily I deceived myself (and others) that I was having this wonderful relationship with god. He really was my best friend and this only led to me suffering all the more when the house of cards came tumbling down. The fact that ex-christians were most often the most devout believers who then had to overcome such deep heartbreak to accept it was all a lie only further demonstrates just how empty the christian faith is. What kind of god would break the hearts of the most passionate of his followers? Only a profoundly evil or a totally imaginary god would do that. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moloko5 Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 Well said. You articulated what I've always felt better than I could have. Having grown up with a pastor father, and a pastor older brother and a pastor uncle, and having heard their honest discussions among themselves and with their peers, the fact that you got no replies from pastors doesn't surprise me at all. They would often complain about people like yourself who made their jobs difficult by asking hard questions during their Bible classes. The thing that worried them most was losing control of the class to someone like yourself. They would usually rationalize taking steps to remove what they would view as a "disruptive person" from the church, preferably indirectly, but occassionaly directly if necessary, by telling themselves that the individual was a corrupting influence on other more impressionable members. Their job success is measured primarily by membership, but some members aren't worth the stress. Particularly when they figure you will leave eventually and may convince a few others on the way out. It's all about control. The worst thing that can happen to a pastor is to lose control of his own church. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moloko5 Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 That whole Jesus wants a relationship with you thing - creeps me out, like he is some sort of stalker or something Ew Made me want to take out an order of protection Yep...."I'm in a relationship with Jesus!" I was looking at Valentine cards dedicated to him: "Jesus is my first love," and the like. They really do take this bride-of-Christ thing seriously. To whom would they send such a card? They would be sending Valentine cards to a psycho who ignores them most of the time. Ah, such an abusive relationship Christians would be in if he was real... Louis CK had a great bit on God as a terrible girlfriend. It was in reference to the story about Abraham killing his son because of God's demand, but the same sort of hyper-insecurity combined with unreasonable demands applies to the "relationship with Jesus" nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denyoz Posted February 23, 2013 Author Share Posted February 23, 2013 Well said. You articulated what I've always felt better than I could have. Having grown up with a pastor father, and a pastor older brother and a pastor uncle, and having heard their honest discussions among themselves and with their peers, the fact that you got no replies from pastors doesn't surprise me at all. They would often complain about people like yourself who made their jobs difficult by asking hard questions during their Bible classes. The thing that worried them most was losing control of the class to someone like yourself. They would usually rationalize taking steps to remove what they would view as a "disruptive person" from the church, preferably indirectly, but occassionaly directly if necessary, by telling themselves that the individual was a corrupting influence on other more impressionable members. Their job success is measured primarily by membership, but some members aren't worth the stress. Particularly when they figure you will leave eventually and may convince a few others on the way out. It's all about control. The worst thing that can happen to a pastor is to lose control of his own church. Well isn't that interesting. Thank you so much for sharing this, Moloko. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RipVanWinkle Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 Kurari: That's a beautiful post. The way "god" treats or, even better, doesn't treat the enormous number of needy people is the most powerful reason i finally deconverted. I dwellt on this fact for, literally, years. I kept thinking that I must be overlooking something. But what? Until in one Sunday school class I raised the issue with the class by pointing out the millions in third world countries who don't even have enough to eat. The teacher asked me why I thought that was true (that there was millions of starving pelple) He didn't even acknowledge the well known fact of world poverty. I then knew the reason for his denial was self deception. Unbelievable. But thank you for your heart felt post. bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bronxo Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 Where does this 'relationship' theme come from anyway? I've asked a couple of christians, but they couldn't point it out in the bible. My guess is that it's a branch on the tree of the reformation, in the church a personal belief had never been relevant before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator TrueFreedom Posted February 24, 2013 Moderator Share Posted February 24, 2013 Where does this 'relationship' theme come from anyway? I've asked a couple of christians, but they couldn't point it out in the bible. My guess is that it's a branch on the tree of the reformation, in the church a personal belief had never been relevant before. I think it might be from some of Jesus' parables, like the sheep and goats: "....I never knew you..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denyoz Posted February 24, 2013 Author Share Posted February 24, 2013 Where does this 'relationship' theme come from anyway? I've asked a couple of christians, but they couldn't point it out in the bible. My guess is that it's a branch on the tree of the reformation, in the church a personal belief had never been relevant before. One of the Books of the Bible is dedicated to this relationship: the Song of Songs (of Solomon) is about a courtship between a man and a woman, and has often been interpreted as a parable of the relationship of Christ and the human soul, as husband and wife. But some churches don't recognize this book as "inspired scripture." It starts like this: "Let him kiss me with the kisses of his mouth—for your love is more delightful than wine... No wonder the young women love you! Take me away with you—let us hurry! Let the king bring me into his chambers..." Fuck, I was gay for Christ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bronxo Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 Oh yeah you can definately find it in there somewhere, but you have to stretch the meaning scripture. I mean, a shepherd claiming he has a relationship with his sheep, isn't that a tad bit weird? I don't think the bible claims you need a relationship with God/Christ in order to go to heaven anywhere. It requires faith, which is a different beast entirely (fearing the Lord, for example, does not imply a healthy relationship). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pixie Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 I think having a personal relationship with yourself is the best way to go! That's what I have been developing. A nice friendship with me! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 Well said. You articulated what I've always felt better than I could have. Having grown up with a pastor father, and a pastor older brother and a pastor uncle, and having heard their honest discussions among themselves and with their peers, the fact that you got no replies from pastors doesn't surprise me at all. They would often complain about people like yourself who made their jobs difficult by asking hard questions during their Bible classes. The thing that worried them most was losing control of the class to someone like yourself. They would usually rationalize taking steps to remove what they would view as a "disruptive person" from the church, preferably indirectly, but occassionaly directly if necessary, by telling themselves that the individual was a corrupting influence on other more impressionable members. Their job success is measured primarily by membership, but some members aren't worth the stress. Particularly when they figure you will leave eventually and may convince a few others on the way out. It's all about control. The worst thing that can happen to a pastor is to lose control of his own church. Thanks for sharing this. It tells much about their so-called love of truth. Not all of us are in a position to hear these conversations. Many of us are only at the receiving end of the corrupt and controlling hypocritical behaviour. It is seriously and painfully confusing for the serious seeker of truth, especially when the treatment comes from the pastors who claim to have the truth. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest r3alchild Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 Thats very sad, I know the frustration of not hearing clearly from god. When you were saying that I was thinking in my mind. I wonder what the bible does actualy say on how a person hears from god? I have heard all kinds of ways from christians and have some of my own ideas. But it would be interesting to know the facts about such experiences. Does anyone know how god is supposed to contact us. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SquareOne Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 chris, I have written a post about one way Christians seem to think that God communicates... Through co-incidence! http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/54856-coincidence-and-christian-supersition/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest r3alchild Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 chris, I have written a post about one way Christians seem to think that God communicates... Through co-incidence! http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/54856-coincidence-and-christian-supersition/ I know this scenario very well, a christian friend tells me that events that happen to him like this must prove his christianity. But when I try to remember what bible passage or biblical doctrine that would teach christians to think like that, I am hard pressed to think of one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RachelSkates Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 SOO many good points there. If we never had imagination , would we still have that "relationship?" No. If we did not have doapmine, we could not do it either. The whole thing was so painful to read, your sincere pleading to the non god. Oh, I know!!! When you do not need him, he is graet. Like health insurance. Then, when you need him, you see the ruse. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjsolis Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 This post was so good I saved it to my desktop. I remember asking God, "Will the real Jesus please stand up?" Of course, nothing ever came of it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denyoz Posted March 18, 2013 Author Share Posted March 18, 2013 Thanks everyone for all the encouraging comments and feedback. It surprises me how much this issue resonates deeply with so many people. I felt so alone and outcast when I wrote it. The Bible is so full of God's words. In fact, we call it "The word of God". But when we enter into a relationship with him, we never hear any words! How ironic is that? Check out the very first book, Genesis 1: verse 3: "And God said..." verse 6: "And God said..." verse 9: "And God said..." verse 11: "Then God said..." verse 14: "And God said..." verse 20: "And God said..." And it goes on and on. This is a God who can't keep his mouth shut! And as soon as he creates man, he talks to him. He talks to everyone in the bible, he uses words, audible, clear utterances that can be heard and understood. He tells people what to do, what not to do, there is no ambiguity about it. But all WE get from him is the silent treatment. What an ass! God is a talking ass (Numbers 22:28) who won't even talk to us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator TrueFreedom Posted March 18, 2013 Moderator Share Posted March 18, 2013 You're not deciphering the code properly. You can only hear God while under the influence of magic mushrooms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denyoz Posted March 19, 2013 Author Share Posted March 19, 2013 You're not deciphering the code properly. You can only hear God while under the influence of magic mushrooms. Oh. Yeah. Well, then the church should make them readily available for everyone free of charge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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