Embrace Your Evil Nature

[RankStranger]

So Rank if you don't want to be fucked over, so you don't fuck people over, why do you lie to them?

 

Because it's easy to do, and it helps get me what I want.  Mostly, it just avoids hassle.

 

So why do you lie?

[Margee]

How many remember this movie, ''The invention of Lying''? I loved it!! Watch the clip....it's good!

 

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1058017/

[Galien]

 

 

So Rank if you don't want to be fucked over, so you don't fuck people over, why do you lie to them?

 

Because it's easy to do, and it helps get me what I want.  Mostly, it just avoids hassle.

 

So why do you lie?

 

 

I don't. It's embarrassing and uneccessary. Unless some cunt is trying to kill me, in which case I would lie through my teeth to get out of it. I have no need to lie any other time. For me lying would not be easy, it would eat me up inside because I did it.

[RankStranger]

 

 

So Rank if you don't want to be fucked over, so you don't fuck people over, why do you lie to them?

 

Because it's easy to do, and it helps get me what I want.  Mostly, it just avoids hassle.

 

So why do you lie?

 

I don't. It's embarrassing and uneccessary. Unless some cunt is trying to kill me, in which case I would lie through my teeth to get out of it. I have no need to lie any other time. For me lying would not be easy, it would eat me up inside because I did it.

 

Yeah, I don't lie either.  Ever.  Hurts my soul and shit.

[Margee]

Once one is free from pleasing the sky daddy....the sky is the limit. We can choose to do whatever we want... good or bad....

 

I find once I have that total freedom ..I don't really want to abuse it. It's much like if your allowed to chew gum in class...it's not near as fun. I still like me to be as sincere as I can. I don't like the feeling of feeling ashamed of myself. I can lie and manipulate a little more  (to have my own way and like Rank, am willing to admit that) but I still don't want to hurt anyone.

 

Lying helps me treat people with respect. I would have told half my clientele to go fuck themselves if I was to be 'perfectly' honest and I would have never made any paycheck..

 

It's just like Deny already said: 'Just because I can tell a lie doesn't mean I've lost the ability to tell the truth... or even further than that......to be mostly truthful. 

[Galien]

 

 

 

 

 

 

So Rank if you don't want to be fucked over, so you don't fuck people over, why do you lie to them?

 

Because it's easy to do, and it helps get me what I want.  Mostly, it just avoids hassle.

 

So why do you lie?

 

 

I don't. It's embarrassing and uneccessary. Unless some cunt is trying to kill me, in which case I would lie through my teeth to get out of it. I have no need to lie any other time. For me lying would not be easy, it would eat me up inside because I did it.

 

 

 

Yeah, I don't lie either.  Ever.  Hurts my soul and shit.

 

 

Yeah very funny. Seems to me mate like you have a very narrow experience of life. Most of the dissonance I had in christianity came from the fact that I realised christians were dishonest and I could not get my head around that. We were supposed to be the most honest.

 

You need to understand the world is a big place with millions of different people in it. Some of us have obsessions. Mine is honesty. I'm sure you have some of your own, they are just different from mine. Maybe yours is being a smartass and not believing the things people tell you. Whatever.

[Galien]

Once one is free from pleasing the sky daddy....the sky is the limit. We can choose to do whatever we want... good or bad....

 

I find once I have that total freedom ..I don't really want to abuse it. It's much like if your allowed to chew gum in class...it's not near as fun. I still like me to be as sincere as I can. I don't like the feeling of feeling ashamed of myself. I can lie and manipulate a little more  (to have my own way and I like Rank, am willing to admit that) but I still don't want to hurt anyone.

 

Lying helps me treat people with respect. I would have told half my clientele to go fuck themselves if I was to be 'perfectly' honest and I would have never made any paycheck..

 

It's just like Deny already said: 'Just because I can tell a lie doesn't mean I've lost the ability to tell the truth... or even further than that......to be mostly truthful.

I don't mean that kind of honesty Margee, telling people what you think of them out of your judgement is not honesty. Its just your opinion. I mean the kind where someone asks you if you did something and you say no instead of yes, even if you did it.

[Margee]

 

Once one is free from pleasing the sky daddy....the sky is the limit. We can choose to do whatever we want... good or bad....

 

 

I don't mean that kind of honesty Margee, telling people what you think of them out of your judgement is not honesty. Its just your opinion. I mean the kind where someone asks you if you did something and you say no instead of yes, even if you did it.

Oh Galien...you are going to be so disappointed in me tonight.....I remember telling my husband that I was a virgin  and I wasn't.......  I just, just, just couldn't tell him the truth........

 

And as far as some of those clients that you think I am just 'judging and it's just my opinion? Some of those woman were aggressive, complaining, selfish,  didn't respect my time, and I allowed them to take advantage of me because I had a real soft heart....... I'm glad tonight the bitches are gone out of my life........and I'm glad I'm not the same person I used to be.....

[Galien]

Never ceases to amaze me how much deeper the hole becomes every time my hand hits the keyboard.

[Galien]

 

 

Once one is free from pleasing the sky daddy....the sky is the limit. We can choose to do whatever we want... good or bad....  

I don't mean that kind of honesty Margee, telling people what you think of them out of your judgement is not honesty. Its just your opinion. I mean the kind where someone asks you if you did something and you say no instead of yes, even if you did it.

Oh Galien...you are going to be so disappointed in me tonight.....I remember telling my husband that I was a virgin  and I wasn't.......  I just, just, just couldn't tell him the truth........ And as far as some of those clients that you think I am just 'judging and it's just my opinion? Some of those woman were aggressive, complaining, selfish,  didn't respect my time, and I allowed them to take advantage of me because I had a real soft heart....... I'm glad tonight the bitches are gone out of my life........and I'm glad I'm not the same person I used to be.....

I'm not saying you are judgemental, I'm not saying I'm disappointed, I'm not saying you have to be like me. I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy. I'm just saying how I am.

[Denyoz]

I'm just saying how I am.

 

Are you happy with how you are? You are free to change if you want. It's fun to experiment.

[Galien]

There are some things about us we cannot change. Our temperament is one of them

[seeker001]

There are some things about us we cannot change. Our temperament is one of them

I hear you there

[Margee]

There are some things about us we cannot change. Our temperament is one of them

I politely disagree. (Hug when I disagree )

 

 I feel anyone can change what they want about themselves with a little awareness...it's all about choosing your thoughts and perceptions about how you see things. Yeah, the basic temperament stays the same, but one does have the ability to change how one look at things. I've changed my mind about many things in the last year. I am really not the same Margee. Is she better or worse? Some may think I'm worse, but I think I'm better (in my mind) for the new ways that I am thinking.

[Galien]

 

 

There are some things about us we cannot change. Our temperament is one of them

I politely disagree. (Hug when I disagree:P )

 

 I feel anyone can change what they want about themselves with a little awareness...it's all about choosing your thoughts and perceptions about how you see things. Yeah, the basic temperament stays the same, but one  does have the ability to change how one look at things. I've changed my mind about many things in the last year. I am really not the same Margee. Is she better or worse? Some may think I'm worse, but I think I'm better (in my mind) for the new ways that I am thinking.

 

 

I have changed my mind about so many things I cannot remember them all now. We are not so big on the positive thinking thing here thank goodness. We all deal with things the best way we can.

 

What matters Margee is that you are happy with who you are.

[RankStranger]

 

But I COULD pursue this matter just as an experiment... a trial run if you will. The upside is that i can try my hand at fucking somebody over just like i see other people doing every single day (consciously or not). And probably get a couple hundred dollars for my trouble. The down side is that it would be kinda hard on this guy who has never really wronged me... but whom I don't particularly like just the same.

Why would you want to hurt someone if it's in your power to avoid it? Just because it's common doesn't make it right. Dunno about others, but I just don't have that gene or I have a gene that blocks me. I'd rather hurt myself than hurt someone who hasn't harmed me.

 

Vigile- you know as well as I do... probably better than I do... that our incomes as Westerners are heavily subsidized by exploitation and military enforcement.  I know this bothers you. 

 

Do you feel that this reflects on you as an individual?  I mean, if you're not willing to swear off any benefit of such an economic/military system (your birth-right as an American), then wouldn't it be fair to say that you (and I) differ from Dick Cheney only in degree?  Sure, we may also differ somewhat where intent is concerned... but that seems incidental to me seeings how we're AWARE of what's going on.

 

And if we're willing to live well upon the blood and exploitation of others... then isn't any 'good' we practice little more than a pretense?

 

Or am I running off on a crazy tangent here?

[Vigile]

There are things I control and things I don't control. I personally wouldn't think twice about sticking it to a corporation that is sticking it to others, but I'll be damned if I'm going to stick it to a regular joe just trying to eke out a living in the world. The distinctions seem pretty clear to me. I know you're just exploring this as an intellectual exercise and I don't have a problem with that. I'm sure you can blur the lines if you pick at the issue like a scab but nevertheless, at least for me, I don't have it in me to take advantage of someone if I have a reasonable choice in the matter.

 

In your scenario, I'd say take what the guy owes you, but don't leverage an advantage over him just because you can. At least that's how I'd play it if it were me.

[RankStranger]

 

 

 

 

So Rank if you don't want to be fucked over, so you don't fuck people over, why do you lie to them?

 

Because it's easy to do, and it helps get me what I want.  Mostly, it just avoids hassle.

 

So why do you lie?

 

I don't. It's embarrassing and uneccessary. Unless some cunt is trying to kill me, in which case I would lie through my teeth to get out of it. I have no need to lie any other time. For me lying would not be easy, it would eat me up inside because I did it.

 

 

Yeah, I don't lie either.  Ever.  Hurts my soul and shit.

 

Yeah very funny. Seems to me mate like you have a very narrow experience of life. Most of the dissonance I had in christianity came from the fact that I realised christians were dishonest and I could not get my head around that. We were supposed to be the most honest.

 

You need to understand the world is a big place with millions of different people in it. Some of us have obsessions. Mine is honesty. I'm sure you have some of your own, they are just different from mine. Maybe yours is being a smartass and not believing the things people tell you. Whatever.

 

Galien, I don't know you in real life... so maybe I'm way off base here.  Perhaps you ARE that paragon of honesty the likes of which I've never met and never will.  

 

But I know precisely one person in meat-space who claims (implicitly) that he never lies.  My dad's religion requires that of him- and he really believes that he lives up to that standard.  But I've been around him long enough to know that he's only able to believe that because he lies to himself.  Don't get me wrong- he's definitely more truthful that your average person.  Hell, he's more truthful than I am- and I think I lie less often than most.  But I've seen him lie both by omission and commission plenty of times- he just can't admit to himself that he does it.

 

Could the same be true for you?  Only you can know that... but you know what my guess is.

 

If you're willing to really dig into it, it's damn difficult at times to determine whether a given statement is a lie or not.  Your discussion with Margee touched on that- but there are more examples than you can shake a stick at.  Does it come down to intent?  The literal truth of the statement?  How the statement is perceived?  Or some combination thereof?  Any standard you pick is going to be wildly arbitrary and impossible to prove.  I personally don't think it's possible to be 100% truthful 100% of the time (or anything close, really)- and believe me, I tried when I was younger... I WAS raised that way after all.  No, I reckon it's far more honest to readily admit that I lie when it suits me.  I've never seen the slightest reason to believe that that isn't true of everybody I've ever met.

 

But maybe you're that one christ-like exception.

[Galien]

Started off as a christ like thing, then just went on from there. If christ ever existed, well it is pretty clear where honesty got him. These days I'm thinking christ like just means sucker.

[RankStranger]

There are things I control and things I don't control. I personally wouldn't think twice about sticking it to a corporation that is sticking it to others, but I'll be damned if I'm going to stick it to a regular joe just trying to eke out a living in the world. The distinctions seem pretty clear to me. I know you're just exploring this as an intellectual exercise and I don't have a problem with that. I'm sure you can blur the lines if you pick at the issue like a scab but nevertheless, at least for me, I don't have it in me to take advantage of someone if I have a reasonable choice in the matter.

 

In your scenario, I'd say take what the guy owes you, but don't leverage an advantage over him just because you can. At least that's how I'd play it if it were me.

 

And that's likely what I'll do.  I'll likely just keep the money he's sent me and let the $100 difference between what I got and what I reckon I'm owed go.  It's a trivial amount of money- that's three meals for my wife and me down at the local Mexican restaurant.  Not only that, but this is the easiest course of action (to do nothing)... and that's not to be ignored.

 

But this scab I'm picking at remains- whether or not I act on that 'evil' idea of mine.  Fact is that our incomes as Westeners are heavily subsidized by the blood and exploitation of the less fortunate.  And I disagree about that not being in your control.  You COULD do what Jesus demanded of that guy in the bible- give all your wealth to the poor, and go be a hippy in a mud hut.  That much is in your control and mine.  We don't HAVE to live off the exploitation of others... but we DO.

 

And unlike most people I know, I can't plead ignorance here.  I know damn well what I'm doing.  Pardon my trolling, but so do you.  So what separates us from the likes of Dick Cheney?

[RankStranger]

Started off as a christ like thing, then just went on from there. If christ ever existed, well it is pretty clear where honesty got him. These days I'm thinking christ like just means sucker.

 

Well I can't disagree with you there.  My dad's so-called 'honesty' has fucked him over more times than I can count.  See, best I can tell, he does in fact lie- but he's kinda given up CONTROL over when & how he does it.  Most of the lies he tells are trivial- changing a story to make it funnier, or to make himself look better.  Things like that- things that don't really hurt anybody or gain him anything tangible.  I don't begrudge him this- we humans ALL do that best I can tell.  But what I find really sad is that he's incapable of lying when he needs it the most- when a few strategically-placed words could save him a world of hurt and yet cause no harm to anybody... he just can't do it.  

 

Yeah, I'd call that a 'sucker'.

[Vigile]

And I disagree about that not being in your control. You COULD do what Jesus demanded of that guy in the bible- give all your wealth to the poor, and go be a hippy in a mud hut.

Ha ha. And that changes the world how? I already live a pretty simple life if you don't count my travels. I'm pretty sure there's a big difference between actively abusing my neighbors and buying lettuce picked by virtual slave labor.  Not the least of which is a slippery slope that should everyone adopt the same attitude of the elite no one would be able to trust their neighbors and the world would devolve into chaos. 

 

 

So what separates us from the likes of Dick Cheney?

 

If a magic fairy gave me his power, I for one wouldn't invade foreign countries for their oil and I wouldn't give sweetheart deals to my plutocratic friends.  The fact that I wouldn't means that a magic fairy would be necessary in order for me to have his power.  Nevertheless. 

 

My wife has the kitchen full of friends and I've been doing vodka shots.  But I'm pretty sure there's a logical fallacy when equating active aggression against fellow humans and passively benefiting from that which one never asked for. 

 

Hell, if the magic fairy existed, I'd ask her for a resource-based economy. 

[Vigile]

 

but what I find really sad is that he's incapable of lying when he needs it the most- when a few strategically-placed words could save him a world of hurt and yet cause no harm to anybody... he just can't do it.  

 

Yeah, I'd call that a 'sucker'.

 

Indeed.  Logical morality, for lack of a better term, involves avoiding harm or at least minimizing it, not following arbitrary rules.  This, I believe addresses your issue we discussed above.  My living like a puritan doesn't limit harm but actually does harm a human(s); myself and my family.  Actively fucking with someone when I have the power not to directly inflicts harm.  This seems self-evident to me. 

 

[Denyoz]

 

Started off as a christ like thing, then just went on from there. If christ ever existed, well it is pretty clear where honesty got him. These days I'm thinking christ like just means sucker.

 

Well I can't disagree with you there.  My dad's so-called 'honesty' has fucked him over more times than I can count.  See, best I can tell, he does in fact lie- but he's kinda given up CONTROL over when & how he does it.  Most of the lies he tells are trivial- changing a story to make it funnier, or to make himself look better.  Things like that- things that don't really hurt anybody or gain him anything tangible.  I don't begrudge him this- we humans ALL do that best I can tell.  But what I find really sad is that he's incapable of lying when he needs it the most- when a few strategically-placed words could save him a world of hurt and yet cause no harm to anybody... he just can't do it.  

 

Yeah, I'd call that a 'sucker'.

 

I really like how you worded this Rank, because this is exactly what I am learning to do.  Only 6 months ago, I was like your dad and thought like Galien.  I WAS the most honest person that I knew and was convinced that I could and would never change.  I was expecting the world to change and for it to become as honest as me.  No way I was going to regress and act like those hypocrite dishonest scumbags I had to live with.

 

I was planning my divorce and my escape out of society.  I wanted to live in the woods ALL BY MYSELF, away from all the bullshit.

 

Then, after a series of unexpected events, and with the help of a friend, I decided to force myself to do the unthinkable:  a sort of "revenge" which involved taking back what belonged to me (stealing) and changing the way I spoke, expressing myself using strategically-placed words and knowing when to shut the fuck up (lying).  Most people do this without even realizing it, but I had to force myself to do it because I had never learned how.  This was all new to me.  But I did it!

 

It saved my marriage and a lot of unnecessary hurt to my family.  And that's a lot of hurt because I have a huge family.

[Galien]

We all do what we need to do to survive. Being true to myself and the things that are important to me are vital to my survival. To jump on the bandwagon of dishonesty would finish me. I have already lived without hope for a very long time, and had so many of my beliefs about people smashed to pieces. Through all this, the only constant has been knowing who I am, and being able to trust that. If I lost that, I would lose the last reason I have left to stay alive.

 

We all have different journeys.