Would You Ever Submit And Worship God

[raoul]

Well I see fuckface has stopped replying to my postings. I'll consider that as clear a confession of defeat as a morontheist will ever give.

 

Fuckface's entirety of postings in here proves (to me) the opinion I formed quite some time ago once more - namely that while "we non- or ex-fanatics" operate on a desire for logic, truth and reason, a morontheist only cares for authority. As long as (insert claim here) is said by the right führer, a morontheist will mindlessly regurgibabble it any chance it gets. It is the concept we call "Kadavergehorsam" over here, literally "cadaver obedience".

 

Reason vs cadaver obedience. One of the two leads to scientific advance, a greater understanding of the world and the universe, and probably a few other things I can't remember right now. The other leads to wars, persecution, genocide and such, as history repeatedly tought us.

 

I guess reality makes the point better than I ever could.

Oh, trust me - he'll be back once he thinks we've forgotten this sordid thread. Just like herpes, he'll be back....

[raoul]

 

On your other post, no I haven't heard of natural theology. I'll check it out later, do you have a good link to information about it.

 

I'll answer for him since he ran away - typical with them. You can find it right in the bible starting with Genesis.. lol

[seeker001]

 

 

On your other post, no I haven't heard of natural theology. I'll check it out later, do you have a good link to information about it.

 

I'll answer for him since he ran away - typical with them. You can find it right in the bible starting with Genesis.. lol

 

I like to see where people are getting their sources from, I usually post where I'm getting my information from. Seeing where people get their information from

1. Allows me to get a quick lookup. True I can google this but

2. I tend to judge people's credibility by their sources.

 

If they are getting their information from a respectable source or if they are supporting their argument from one, I give more weight to their argument. If they are getting it from a fringe site, than I give it less weight. 

[Mike D]

What would bring you to completely submit and worship The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob?

The promise of eternal life and a mansion heaven.

 

Oh wait, that's already been done.

 

Never mind.

[RipVanWinkle]

OC: You just don't get it. You criticize Exchristians for using a psychological clutch? That's

incredible. All of Xtianity is a crutch to avoid facing reality. You believe in a fantasy land where

the magic god lives who conjures up all kinds of magical tricks, like Joshua with his crew walking

around the town 7 times, etc. so that the walls will come tumbling down. God couldn't have done it without the walk? And then you say that we (exchristians) should believe in your god like others do who,

you say. are "like us". What is noble about being duped into believing a fantasy? Just what is your

actual basis for thinking that you know the right answers to these issues? So far as I have seen you

have not addressed on this forum any real basis for a belief in the bible or the bible god. If you can do so I'd love to hear it.

 

Agnostics and atheists lack of belief does not gain us any advantage in life, except the honest

conviction that we are searching for as much truth as possible, without arrogantly thinking we already know the complete TRUTH. Xtians frequently charge that we just want to do whatever we want to do

without any consequences. That is so utterly untrue. Every ex-Xtian on this site whom I had or been

involved with in a conversation agonized for long periods of time before making their decision to

deconvert and spent years reading history, apolagetics, theology, etc. before making their decision.

Did you do so before committing to Xtianity? They recognize that they were making an important decision, one that could affect their eternal soul. So it takes courage to make a decision to deconvert. Could you do it if you were to decide that the faith was a myth? Or would fear prevent you from leaving the

faith irrespective of the truth. These are tough questions. If you are honest with yourself, you will

see that the decision to deconvert is a tough one and does indeed take courage. Then, even if you

never change your belief, you could at least understand the trauma of deconversion and the courage

it takes. bill

[sdelsolray]

OC: You just don't get it. You criticize Exchristians for using a psychological clutch? That's

incredible. All of Xtianity is a crutch to avoid facing reality. You believe in a fantasy land where

the magic god lives who conjures up all kinds of magical tricks, like Joshua with his crew walking

around the town 7 times, etc. so that the walls will come tumbling down. God couldn't have done it without the walk? And then you say that we (exchristians) should believe in your god like others do who,

you say. are "like us". What is noble about being duped into believing a fantasy? Just what is your

actual basis for thinking that you know the right answers to these issues? So far as I have seen you

have not addressed on this forum any real basis for a belief in the bible or the bible god. If you can do so I'd love to hear it.

 

Agnostics and atheists lack of belief does not gain us any advantage in life, except the honest

conviction that we are searching for as much truth as possible, without arrogantly thinking we already know the complete TRUTH. Xtians frequently charge that we just want to do whatever we want to do

without any consequences. That is so utterly untrue. Every ex-Xtian on this site whom I had or been

involved with in a conversation agonized for long periods of time before making their decision to

deconvert and spent years reading history, apolagetics, theology, etc. before making their decision.

Did you do so before committing to Xtianity? They recognize that they were making an important decision, one that could affect their eternal soul. So it takes courage to make a decision to deconvert. Could you do it if you were to decide that the faith was a myth? Or would fear prevent you from leaving the

faith irrespective of the truth. These are tough questions. If you are honest with yourself, you will

see that the decision to deconvert is a tough one and does indeed take courage. Then, even if you

never change your belief, you could at least understand the trauma of deconversion and the courage

it takes. bill

It's called projection.  In the case of OC, it's called weapons-grade projection.

[Ravenstar]

"regurgibabble"  love this!

[Astreja]

 

Why would polytheism seem more rational to you?

 

Let's just say that polytheism is less irrational  than Christianity.  It accurately reflects the primitive nature of religion in general, setting up powerful role models to be the standard-bearers of a tribe.  In that respect it is part of our history and culture, and its appearance in culture makes pretty good sense.  It is also a useful vehicle for conveying community moral standards to the masses through storytelling.

 

Christianity, on the other hand, has no stories of its own.  It is a syncretic mess with bits and pieces nicked from Jewish, Greek and Egyptian culture.  At its heart, it actually has no heart.  It is a mere cardboard cutout, propped up by layer upon layer of apologetics and philosophical hypotheses that have no relevance to reality.  It is music with no rhythm, melody or harmony; a story with no poetry; a painting with pale and clashing smears of colour.

[♦ ficino ♦]

Back to the OP:  a "brain event" that someone thinks is a message from God doesn't cut it as a basis for submission and worship of said god.

 

1. one cannot tell whether the brain event is caused by another entity, existing outside oneself, or by something in one's own brain (it doesn't matter that the brain is/may be the locus of the "experience").  E.g. my father was convinced that he had a mystical experience in 1952, through which God was revealed to him.  He was taken to a psychiatrist who thought it was a psychotic episode.  Similar things happened to him in subsequent decades.  There wasn't any feature of the experience, as far as I can tell, that served as a testing element separate from the experience, by which he or others could test whether the experience was an instance of revelation or not.  The results in his life, in my view, make it clear that it was psychosis.  Lots of people have had experiences.  Antlerman has not weighed in on this thread, but could do so.  If I had an experience that seemed to be a revelation, how would I know that it was one?  

 

2.  related to 1:  lots of people in history have experienced revelations, as they thought, and the content of what they say they received results in contradictory claims.  If revelation is self-authenticating to the one who receives it, how can disputes among the "revealed" propositions be adjudicated in a non-question-begging way?

 

3.  As far as my understanding of the Buddha story goes, Siddartha did not receive revelation as is claimed of, say, Mohammed.  He sat down under a tree and gained and developed insights about human experience, suffering, and transcendence of or release from suffering.

[buffettphan]

 

 

A consequence of an action is not extortion. Damnation is a consequence of a free will choice people make. If a father tells their child not to stick their hand in the fire the father is not extorting anything from the child.

Even if our children disobey us, I don't know a human parent who would force the child to keep his hand on the hot fire for all eternity.  

 

That's your evil god's specialty.

 

What child in their right mind would hate their parent for telling them not to drink and drive.

 

 

 

I've been away all day and just read OC's reply to me. Others have masterfully addressed his (idiotic) response. At this point, all I want to say to OC is this:

 

If what I bolded above is really what you gleaned from my statement at 9:58am, please reconsider posting here until you can pass a third grade reading comprehension test.

 

 

 

[seeker001]

I think logic and reason is the perfect crutch for people to have. We constantly have information being thrown our way, but not all of it is true or even reasonable. Logic is how determine how sound the argument is, and reason is how we determine if the information is plausible.

 

Just because something sounds reasonable does not mean it is true, and just because is an argument is valid also does not mean it is true. Logic and reason are simply tools to assist in determining the truth of the argument presented to us supported by proof.

 

We can't believe everything that is presented to us, that is madness. Anyone claiming to have the answer to all of life's questions better be prepared to defend that claim. Every religion claims to hold the path to enlightenment, but Christianity claims to have Answer. This is not something to be taken lightly. As someone once said, "Extraordinary claims, call for extraordinary proof." 

 

In the scientific community, before information is allowed to be considered as scientific fact, it must go through peer review. If the information holds up to criticism it is accepted as fact. If Christianity is true, than it too should hold up to criticism. 

[Thurisaz]

Oh, trust me - he'll be back once he thinks we've forgotten this sordid thread. Just like herpes, he'll be back....

Oh I'm sure... they always come back don't they? But what the heck, if it begs for another round of asskicking and mockery, I'll be game

[BrotherJosh]

"Extraordinary claims, call for extraordinary proof." . 

 

[seeker001]

 

"Extraordinary claims, call for extraordinary proof." . 

 

 

Thank you, that was what I was thinking of

[duderonomy]

What if all claims are extraordinary?

[seeker001]

What if all claims are extraordinary?

If all claims are extraordinary than wouldn't that mean all claims are ordinary? Extraordinary means something beyond the ordinary. If all things are extraordinary than nothing is extraordinary by the definition, thereby making all claims just ordinary.

[raoul]

 

What if all claims are extraordinary?

If all claims are extraordinary than wouldn't that mean all claims are ordinary? Extraordinary means something beyond the ordinary. If all things are extraordinary than nothing is extraordinary by the definition, thereby making all claims just ordinary.

 

Powerful logical point!

[raoul]

BrotherJosh, Seeker001, and others - how do you get the video to appear in the forums rather than having to click the link and going over to YouTube to watch it? I copy and past my link over here for my vids but I can't seem to get them to show up here.

[♦ ficino ♦]

Another thought re the OP:

 

would a miracle bring me to believe, submit, and worship again the god of AIJ?

 

problems:

 

to assess that some event is a miracle (lots of subissues here that I'm not going to go into)

to account for God's promises in cases where a miracle under nearly the same circumstances is not performed

to account for God's justice     "      "         "   etc

[new2me]

First, I would need rock solid evidence that God actually exists.  Then, he would have a lot of explaining to do if he were to try to convince me that he was worthy of worship.  He would have to clarify what is really true about him, including why he is unable or unwilling to alleviate suffering in this world.  And of course, hell.

 

He would have to explain why faith - believing something without evidence - is a good thing.  It's never a good idea to have this kind of faith in any other aspect of life (just ask any of Bernie Madoff's victims,) so why is it a good thing regarding God?

 

And ultimately, he would have to explain to me why he needs to be worshipped.  Or why he even wants to be worshipped?  I think that is a very strange, narcissistic thing.  Although I am glad to have the love of my husband and children, I would never want them to worship me.  That is just creepy.  I would think that any 'higher power' would be beyond having a need or desire for adulation from lesser beings.

[seeker001]

BrotherJosh, Seeker001, and others - how do you get the video to appear in the forums rather than having to click the link and going over to YouTube to watch it? I copy and past my link over here for my vids but I can't seem to get them to show up here.

I'm not sure, it just works for me automatically

[raoul]

 

BrotherJosh, Seeker001, and others - how do you get the video to appear in the forums rather than having to click the link and going over to YouTube to watch it? I copy and past my link over here for my vids but I can't seem to get them to show up here.

I'm not sure, it just works for me automatically

 

I was tempted to respond with 'thanks for your very technical answer' but I don't know if you have a sense of humor. LOL  But seriously, thanks - I'll just try it again.

[Thackerie]

 

 

Let's say for the sake of the argument your god actually does exist. When you say "There is a deep need to convince themselves that He does not exist." did it ever occur to you that there could be a legitimate reason for this? .

Yes, it did occur to me. It seems anti Christians engage in a deep form of selection bias where they focus in on, dwell on, obsess over that which they are able to interpret in their own minds as justification for their pre-existing vitriol. They ignore the deep and everlasting Love God freely offers. I don't believe for a minute any anti Christian cares one whit about what happened to the Canaanites. They do care about how to cast the God they hate in a bad light through careful and obsessive selection.

 

 

Typical fundy. He imagines that just because he has no empathy for real human beings that all other people share this same deficit. With the fundy, it's all about "ME ME ME."

[seeker001]

 

 

BrotherJosh, Seeker001, and others - how do you get the video to appear in the forums rather than having to click the link and going over to YouTube to watch it? I copy and past my link over here for my vids but I can't seem to get them to show up here.

I'm not sure, it just works for me automatically

 

I was tempted to respond with 'thanks for your very technical answer' but I don't know if you have a sense of humor. LOL  But seriously, thanks - I'll just try it again.

 

I have a sense of humor although it is hard to tell in this format. Maybe I could try posting one of your videos. Could I have a link to one? I don't think we need to worry about derailing this thread much

 

edit: Nvm found it. 

Testing: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZK7QBZjMnA

 

huh? I have no idea

[Guest Babylonian Dream]

Ordinary Clay, would you ever submit and worship Zeus?

 

If you say no, then you're lack of belief is just you're psychological crutch to not fear him. You just still secretly believe. By whose logic and reasoning? Your own logic and reasoning. You polytheist!