The UNholiness of the Bible

[Antlerman]

Given the last several posts I'm going to take a stab at it and say, "It's their first tool of choice for spiritual masturbation".

 

I look forward to responses from those of you who have actually been in these groups and can speak with more authority than I can

I think that's the thing that's really being uncovered here for me. When I was in the system it was not meeting what I was looking for spiritually, but there was the conflict of my mind and spirit, attacking my spiritual understanding with guilt! I figured the problem was in me, like Alice was saying above. I had to overcome my "carnal" nature that was causing me to view things in a less than favorable light. But really the problem was the focus of the activities. Reading the Bible was a part of "getting closer to God", but really what was its motivation?

 

Like you said in another thread, someone should not approach contemplation seeking an experience. But ironically, they would say the same thing, "You are seeking God". Now here is the heart of this question, based on what you've heard, and the little you've now seen (there are many others I could expose you to if you were really up seeing more )... do you see that system as inherently designed in such a way that it promotes experience seeking, despite any "guidance" offered to not do so?? If so, in what ways is it that makes it that way, verses someone pursuing contemplation?

[Open_Minded]

Antlerman... we are going to have to seek these answers together. On an individual basis, I'm at a loss. It is utterly amazing to me how people can take the same language I use to define my spiritual journey and use it so destructively.

 

Let us all put our own perspectives on the table, surely something of value will rise to the surface?

 

Before I lay out what I think - I really would like to ask those who are reading this thread and have experience with a meditative path in another tradition to jump in. Your perspective would really help clarify things.

 

Now.... for my perspective. This is going to be somewhat loose to start with, as the discussion progresses I'm sure I'll be able to feel more clarification within and then be able to write more clearly.

 

Like you said in another thread, someone should not approach contemplation seeking an experience. But ironically, they would say the same thing, "You are seeking God".

 

First... let me say there is a difference between seeking an experience and seeking God. I don't think one should approach meditation EVER seeking individual experiences. They will be sadly disapointed. I do, however, approach my meditative lifestyle trusting it will bring me closer to God. I just don't "force" things, I don't try to induce certain events. If they happen in my life, they happen, if they don't - then they don't.

 

Please don't take that statement to mean that I am always so philisophical about it - I am not. I have had long periods (months/years) where meditation was dry. Those were difficult periods - but they are part of the overall lifestyle, the bigger picture. In the end it is not the individual experiences, it is the totality.

 

And this is where I really do wish people from different meditative traditions would jump in.

 

Because in my mind the totality of the experience IS a closer relationship to God. But, I am sure there is another way of saying it - I'm just at a loss for the right words.

 

Now here is the heart of this question, based on what you've heard, and the little you've now seen (there are many others I could expose you to if you were really up seeing more )... do you see that system as inherently designed in such a way that it promotes experience seeking, despite any "guidance" offered to not do so?? If so, in what ways is it that makes it that way, verses someone pursuing contemplation

 

About offering to show me more Thanks but - no thanks, I'm not sure I could handle it - you guys probably don't need another round of "Open_Minded" freaking out either

 

Unless someone can convince me otherwise, yes I guess I do see that clip as promoting "experience seeking".

 

What makes it different from someone pursuing contemplation???

 

I can only go back to my own experiences.

 

1st - when I started to use meditation - at 17 years of age - it was for medical reasons. At the time I was not involved in religion and I didn't really make any connection between the meditative disciplines and spirituality. It wouldn't take me long however to make the connection - because meditation naturally leads to those levels.

 

In the thirty years I've meditated - I am most familiar with Chirstian meditation, but I've also studied some yoga and other "new age" type meditations. Every person I've ever learned under - whether Christian or from another tradition - taught that meditation is NOT about specific experiences.

 

It is a lifestyle - it includes more than just 2 periods of meditation a day. The goal is looser than "do this and you'll know God". For people in our meditation group - we have people who do not consider themselves Christian, one considers herself agnostic - the goal has nothing to do with "knowing God". For all of us meditation is a way of opening oneself up, of preparing oneself for a more intuned awareness of all that is (for me that is God).

 

Now... over time this will lead to different experiences in different people.

 

For instance.... when I wrote about my own experience with speaking in tongues. That happened, but I didn't pursue it - and it wasn't my goal. In fact it was quite unsettling for awhile until I realized that it was "normal" within the realm of my lifestyle.

 

And in all the reading I've done on these types of experiences - if we get too caught up in them the experiences themselves CAN and DO distract people from the goal. These types of things CAN be induced, but shouldn't be BECAUSE they do distract.

 

So... what is the value of that type of experience? The value is purely personal. It did give me a sense of peace. As I said earlier, ecstatic speach has receded from my normal meditative experience. It only resurfaces when I am under considerable stress. Then yes, it is nice to come out of a deep meditation with experience - it is like a song to me - a comforting song and I do associate it with God. But .... is that experience beneficial to the whole. NO, it is not ... and that is why it was so distressing to me to see an intentional inducement of this in a group gathering.

 

First it was distressful BECAUSE people were intentionally trying to induce something that they shouldn't be playing with.

 

And second because they were making more out of the experience than they should - the experience does not benefit creation it benefits one individual. In my mind that is the bottom line.

 

For me... the contemplative lifestyle is about pursuing an increased awareness of the Alpha and the Omega - the all. And in that pursuit to become more aware of my own place IN it - again back to the idea of "false self" and "true self".

 

If a particular experience does not help me to be more aware of the Alpha and the Omega than what value does it have to creation as a whole? Does the experience make me more compassionate or loving because I have become more aware of how interconnected we all are? If it does, then it has value to all of creation.

 

Again, I'm not sure this answers your questions. I really, really wish someone who is familiar with meditation from other traditions would jump in.

 

When all is said and done, I do believe the answer to your question will be found in the discussion

[Antlerman]

About offering to show me more Thanks but - no thanks, I'm not sure I could handle it - you guys probably don't need another round of "Open_Minded" freaking out either

Like I said when I posted the link, "a picture paints a thousand words." Cleary we have exceeded a thousand words in discussing it. (I won't subject you to another dose of it). I think it's helpful in our communication for you to understand what we've been exposed to.

 

I have to confess feeling a little embarrassed and ashamed to have been involved in it, but I console myself that I had the wherewithal to get out. I didn't go into it seeking experience. I went looking for answers, and this was just what they happened to practice, so I went along with it. It failed to satisfy, both intellectually and spritually.

 

I am having some ideas about what makes them different than what you're talking about, but I'm going to try to step back a little and let others add more to this conversation. I think Alice and NB had some great input, and I agree it would benefit the discussion for more input. (Short Circuit's No. 5, "More input Stephanie, more input!" )

[Saviourmachine]

Again, I'm not sure this answers your questions. I really, really wish someone who is familiar with meditation from other traditions would jump in.

It's not really "another" tradition, but when I like I know I can get these feelings of extasy again. Even as a (weak) atheist. It's when I'm quietly lying in my bed. And I do only have to start to think in a certain manner, and to "surrender". And speaking ununderstandable things isn't the hardest part. I like the way my body feels in such situations, it's like taking a bath. I only do it not quite often anymore, because it seems a bit hypocrite. Enjoying such spirituality that isn't supernatural at all. Enjoying a supposed supernatural world, while not believing in it at all. It's like playing soccer with an invisible ball. I don't do fiction normally.

[SkepticOfBible]

Again, I'm not sure this answers your questions. I really, really wish someone who is familiar with meditation from other traditions would jump in.

I come from a hindu background, and I still medidate quite a lot.

 

Pssst: You have get me up to speed with your debate, I kind of lost it with those large post.

[Open_Minded]

Again, I'm not sure this answers your questions. I really, really wish someone who is familiar with meditation from other traditions would jump in.

It's not really "another" tradition, but when I like I know I can get these feelings of extasy again. Even as a (weak) atheist. It's when I'm quietly lying in my bed. And I do only have to start to think in a certain manner, and to "surrender". And speaking ununderstandable things isn't the hardest part. I like the way my body feels in such situations, it's like taking a bath. I only do it not quite often anymore, because it seems a bit hypocrite. Enjoying such spirituality that isn't supernatural at all. Enjoying a supposed supernatural world, while not believing in it at all. It's like playing soccer with an invisible ball. I don't do fiction normally.

 

Saviourmachine:

 

One thing that I've learned at this board is how fundies manipulate spirituality to convince people that what they are experiencing is "supernatural". I strongly disagree with this thought process. I think spirituality is a very natural part of the human experience.

 

One thread you may want to read is "Leaving Jesus is not Leaving God": http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?showtopic=5588&st=140

 

It's a pretty long thread... you may want to start on page 8 where things pick up a bit

 

One thing to keep in mind while considering spirituality is that scientists have started to really study what happens within the brain because of meditation. They are studying the differences between the minds/brains of beginning meditators and those who have been meditating for decades. Across boundries of culture and religion they are finding some very interesting parallels.

 

What I wrote earlier about the meditative life - "For all of us meditation is a way of opening oneself up, of preparing oneself for a more intuned awareness of all that is (for me that is God)." Is in line with what science is finding. Those who meditate with discipline have concrete changes in the brain which do allow the individual to feel "more open" and be more "aware" of an inate interconnectedness within all of creation.

 

One of my favorite books is The Mystic Heart by Wayne Teasdale. The opening lines in his introduction are:

 

Physicist Stephen Hawking has remarked that mysticism is for those who can't do the math. In response to Hawking's remark, my friend George Cairns retorted, "Msytics are people who don't need to do the math. They have direct experience!"

 

Now the context Wayne Teasdale used that statement in was one of gentle humor, but there is truth in it. The human brain is quite capable of searching for the interconnectedness found by both the physicists and the mystics. We just use different parts of our brain that's all. I love to read books on physics, but books written for lay people BECAUSE I can't do the math. But.... it is possible for me to experience this interconnectedness, this "That which Is". People have been doing it in all cultures across all ages. It is VERY natural.

[Open_Minded]

Again, I'm not sure this answers your questions. I really, really wish someone who is familiar with meditation from other traditions would jump in.

I come from a hindu background, and I still medidate quite a lot.

 

Pssst: You have get me up to speed with your debate, I kind of lost it with those large post.

 

Hello Pritishd:

 

Thanks for jumping in.

 

In short I think our discussion has boiled down to one question. What is the diffence between the "mystical" experiences one experiences because of a meditative lifestyle and the "mystical" experiences that one may experience in a fundamentalist tradition.

 

See post 221 at the top of page 12.

 

QUOTE(Open_Minded @ Jan 29 2006, 08:32 PM)

 

Antlerman, may I ask you how fundamentalists used words like "mysticism", "ecstatic experience", "holy Spirit", or "let go and let God"?

 

Sometimes when you use this language it comes across in a different way than I would use it. To avoid miscommunication maybe we better figure out if we're on the same page

 

Looking forward to your reply

 

More on this later, but like they say, a picture paints a thousand words:

 

http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2006/01...thank-lawd.html

 

In essence that clip through me for a loop. Antlerman, Alice, and NotBlinded took the time to educate me a bit. Now we've reached the point where legitimately the question has become... so what's the difference. If fundies look at that clip and lay the term "mystical" on it - how does it differ from the experiences one might have in meditative traditions that are called "mystical".

 

I really do look forward to your input, and if you know of others on this board that could address that question - it would be wonderful to have them jump in as well

 

__________________

 

Oh, BTW, you may want to check out the "Christian debators" thread in News and Current Events.

http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?showtopic=6760

 

I sort of, jokely, nominated you to debate a few of the boys from Liberty University

[Amanda]

One thing that I've learned at this board is how fundies manipulate spirituality to convince people that what they are experiencing is "supernatural". I strongly disagree with this thought process. I think spirituality is a very natural part of the human experience.

 

Hi Open Minded!

 

Perhaps it's all a misunderstanding of labels? I've learned that the average person naturally goes into altared states of consciousness on an average of every 90 minutes! As I understand, there are different levels of this happening all the time. I think what you are doing is harnessing it, identifying these levels, controling the environment of its use, and using it at will instead of it just haphazardly happening anywhere. Because I've heard meditating people say it clears their mind, do you sense it is resolving issues for you without specifically being aware of it? Perhaps those more in tune with objective experiences needs to balance it with the very valuable subjective experiences, and vice versa? I think this is part of the discipline that Buddha endorses?

[Open_Minded]

One thing that I've learned at this board is how fundies manipulate spirituality to convince people that what they are experiencing is "supernatural". I strongly disagree with this thought process. I think spirituality is a very natural part of the human experience.

 

Hi Open Minded!

 

Perhaps it's all a misunderstanding of labels? I've learned that the average person naturally goes into altared states of consciousness on an average of every 90 minutes! As I understand, there are different levels of this happening all the time. I think what you are doing is harnessing it, identifying these levels, controling the environment of its use, and using it at will instead of it just haphazardly happening anywhere. Because I've heard meditating people say it clears their mind, do you sense it is resolving issues for you without specifically being aware of it? Perhaps those more in tune with objective experiences needs to balance it with the very valuable subjective experiences, and vice versa? I think this is part of the discipline that Buddha endorses?

 

Hello Amanda:

 

I do have some thoughts about what you have said.

 

But, experience with interfaith/interspiritual dialogs at our church has taught me that sometimes it is best to hold back while others weigh in. So, I think I'm going to join Antlerman on the sidelines for a bit.

 

If the answers are to be valid they should reflect multiple perspectives. I'm sure that there are others who, like you, have valid thoughts on the discussion. I look forward to hearing from many perspectives

[Antlerman]

But, experience with interfaith/interspiritual dialogs at our church has taught me that sometimes it is best to hold back while others weigh in. So, I think I'm going to join Antlerman on the sidelines for a bit.

Injecting a thought here: I'm wondering if it might help if I (or OM) began a new topic that was more appropriately named. The topic title is a bit misleading and maybe with a new topic title it would draw more attention? I have some thoughts in mind already. Your thoughts to this?

[Skankboy]

Hey Amanda,

 

Because I've heard meditating people say it clears their mind, do you sense it is resolving issues for you without specifically being aware of it? Perhaps those more in tune with objective experiences needs to balance it with the very valuable subjective experiences, and vice versa? I think this is part of the discipline that Buddha endorses?

 

I would most definitely say that, for me at least, meditation very much helps me to clear my mind. I believe shutting off the conscious mind allows the subconscious to work more efficiently (much like when we are sleeping). Subjective experiences can have a great amount of meaning to the person involved, there's nothing wrong with that. It's when you apply this personal meaning to other people that I object. Placing such expectations on others is unfair and unrealistic.

 

I think Buddha would say "If that works for you, then that works."

 

IMOHO,

[Amanda]

But, experience with interfaith/interspiritual dialogs at our church has taught me that sometimes it is best to hold back while others weigh in. So, I think I'm going to join Antlerman on the sidelines for a bit.

Injecting a thought here: I'm wondering if it might help if I (or OM) began a new topic that was more appropriately named. The topic title is a bit misleading and maybe with a new topic title it would draw more attention? I have some thoughts in mind already. Your thoughts to this?

Skankboy, I'm so jealous you know how to do meditation! I always respect your insights in your posts too! You've just increased my yearning for meditation, but my discipline/patience doesn't seem to past the test!

 

How did you get started? Will it take many hours to finally find some of it?

 

Antlerman... Yeah, my vote is to start a new thread! Meditation and these subjective experiences probably don't belong here!

 

I personally would love to learn more about meditation.

 

I've tried this many times... for about two minutes, till I start thinking of laundry or something.

 

Maybe there are those of us who, if we understood it better and from different perspectives, would find how it may be more advantagous than we think. It seems every spiritual teaching promotes it, and some atheist too! I wish I knew what it was and its possible influences in our lives.

 

If you move it to its own thread, please let us know here where you move it, as I don't subscribe to every forum. Thanks.

[Skankboy]

Skankboy, I'm so jealous you know how to do meditation! I always respect your insights in your posts too! You've just increased my yearning for meditation, but my discipline/patience doesn't seem to past the test!

 

LOL... Thanks Amanda, I think you flatter me too much! :tongue:

 

Meditation comes in a lot of "flavors", just ask Open Minded. For me, I learned basic meditation from one of my Philosophy prof's in college and have tried to keep up on it as much for the stress management aspects as much as anything.

 

Patience is tough. I'd say the hardest part about learning to be patient is being patient enough to learn it!

 

Like anything else, it takes work. We would do a 15min guided session before each class (entirely optional, some students would just count on coming in late). At first, I couldn't go 30 sec let alone 2 minutes. But with time and practice I can do about 15min or so no problem and more if I know I've got no commitments later.

 

If someone starts up a new thread, I'll be sure to take a look...

[Saviourmachine]

One thing that I've learned at this board is how fundies manipulate spirituality to convince people that what they are experiencing is "supernatural". I strongly disagree with this thought process. I think spirituality is a very natural part of the human experience.

 

One thread you may want to read is "Leaving Jesus is not Leaving God": http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?showtopic=5588&st=140

Thanks Open_Minded. Rationaly I know this and I've not many fundy friends, only fundy family. I secretly had the idea that somehow the emotions that overwhelmed me during my conversion - and after that - were caused by myself. However, I felt like that would relieve god from being actively communicating with me. That was the part of xianity that attracted me most. I played with the thought that god was using my psyche in conversions just like evolution in biology. I changed from viewpoint as soon as I left xianity. It was at the end indeed: mediation. Self-imposed states. I love that by the way.

 

Maybe I'm mixing threads now, but I read in Reach's thread about good books - with sex as topic - something about multiple orgasms for man. That's a fun goal. Better than learning arabic (that language is almost too difficult to learn). I think it's very like meditation.

 

Feeling "open" feels good.

[Open_Minded]

But, experience with interfaith/interspiritual dialogs at our church has taught me that sometimes it is best to hold back while others weigh in. So, I think I'm going to join Antlerman on the sidelines for a bit.

Injecting a thought here: I'm wondering if it might help if I (or OM) began a new topic that was more appropriately named. The topic title is a bit misleading and maybe with a new topic title it would draw more attention? I have some thoughts in mind already. Your thoughts to this?

 

Hello Antlerman:

 

It sounds like a good idea to me, if you start a new thread, just post here so we know where to find you

 

Seriously though

 

It is legitimate to ask.... If fundies look at that clip and lay the term "mystical" on it - how does it differ from the experiences one might have in meditative traditions that are called "mystical"?

 

I am really interested in hearing the viewpoints of people who have experience with meditation and the fundy mindset????

 

The only thing I wonder about, and you'll know the answer to this better than I, is do you include a link to that clip so that people can see why we're asking the question? If most people on this board are already familiar with the fundy mindset than the clip may just distract from the question

[NotBlinded]

 

Seriously though

 

It is legitimate to ask.... If fundies look at that clip and lay the term "mystical" on it - how does it differ from the experiences one might have in meditative traditions that are called "mystical"?

 

Awareness. I know I said that already, but to me that is the entire difference. One has to be aware that they are not their 'self' that they see themselves to be. When these people go to these events, I think they are going to add something to theirselves so anything that results from it, is not geniune. It is a quick high. It's like desiring anything in life...no longer do we have it when the new wears off. It's only by losing a part of our 'self' can the experience mean anything and have lasting results.

 

Also, I don't think that meditation has to be a certain amount of time or sitting in a certain position. Inspiration has happened to me when I was driving and my mind was clear. I have looked at the rays of the sun comming through the clouds with the water below it and tears began streaming down my face! I have never intentionally sat down and meditated. I am not saying anything against it, just that it doesn't have to be that way. The point of meditation, IMO, is to clear the mind of all thoughts in order to let in what is real. This happens to everybody, I would think, if only briefly throughout the day. One must be aware in order to 'see' it though.

[Skankboy]

The point of meditation, IMO, is to clear the mind of all thoughts in order to let in what is real. This happens to everybody, I would think, if only briefly throughout the day. One must be aware in order to 'see' it though.

 

I can agree with that. I think meditation is only really an active method for accessing the state of mind you describe here. Like amanda said (may have been another thread), most people are in an "altered state" a couple of times a day if only briefly.

 

In Zen (of which I am a great admirer), ANYTHING can be a source of elightenment. And I mean ANYTHING. If all things are interconnected then if makes sense that you can find this property from any point, if you are in the right state of mind to begin with. For some, meditation's the way. For others, art, music etc. I often find playing my bass provides the same feeling of peace that I get from mediation (esp if it's something I wrote and I don't need to think about what I'm doing)...

 

IMOHO,

[NotBlinded]

The point of meditation, IMO, is to clear the mind of all thoughts in order to let in what is real. This happens to everybody, I would think, if only briefly throughout the day. One must be aware in order to 'see' it though.

 

I can agree with that. I think meditation is only really an active method for accessing the state of mind you describe here. Like amanda said (may have been another thread), most people are in an "altered state" a couple of times a day if only briefly.

 

In Zen (of which I am a great admirer), ANYTHING can be a source of elightenment. And I mean ANYTHING. If all things are interconnected then if makes sense that you can find this property from any point, if you are in the right state of mind to begin with. For some, meditation's the way. For others, art, music etc. I often find playing my bass provides the same feeling of peace that I get from mediation (esp if it's something I wrote and I don't need to think about what I'm doing)...

 

IMOHO,

Beautifully said. Art is indeed a wonderful way of accessing this. The best players are the ones that don't think about it. My brother is a drummer and he said the same thing...you can't think about it. That tells me that art and beauty is a natural state inside us and in order to access it, one must stop thinking!

[Skankboy]

There is a fantastic concept in Tao regrading this. They call is "wu-wei". It literaly means "do-nothing", but of course, it's a bit more complex than that.

 

It's not that you aren't doing anything, it's that what your doing requires no mental effort because you have completely internalized the process. It's like a basketball player that can tune out everyone around him and knows whether or not a shot is going to go in when the ball has only just left his hand. Or the butcher (this is a famous example) that can portion and clean an entire oxen in the time it would take others to do a small pig.

 

You get into the "flow" and everything...just...works...

[Alice]

This thread has taken a very encouraging turn for me. I also love the idea of meditation but like Amanda have found it difficult.

 

You've just increased my yearning for meditation, but my discipline/patience doesn't seem to past the test!

 

How did you get started? Will it take many hours to finally find some of it?

 

Antlerman... Yeah, my vote is to start a new thread! Meditation and these subjective experiences probably don't belong here!

 

I personally would love to learn more about meditation.

 

I've tried this many times... for about two minutes, till I start thinking of laundry or something.

 

 

Shopping lists is my own speciality!

 

 

Awareness. I know I said that already, but to me that is the entire difference. One has to be aware that they are not their 'self' that they see themselves to be. When these people go to these events, I think they are going to add something to theirselves so anything that results from it, is not geniune. It is a quick high. It's like desiring anything in life...no longer do we have it when the new wears off. It's only by losing a part of our 'self' can the experience mean anything and have lasting results.

 

Also, I don't think that meditation has to be a certain amount of time or sitting in a certain position. Inspiration has happened to me when I was driving and my mind was clear. I have looked at the rays of the sun comming through the clouds with the water below it and tears began streaming down my face! I have never intentionally sat down and meditated. I am not saying anything against it, just that it doesn't have to be that way. The point of meditation, IMO, is to clear the mind of all thoughts in order to let in what is real. This happens to everybody, I would think, if only briefly throughout the day. One must be aware in order to 'see' it though.

 

The 'state' of mind that I've tried to get to by mediatation - is the state of mind I often get to 'accidentally' - and I don't know if at some level I have a problem with anything that seems to 'engineer' the 'getting there'. I guess this was because as part of my christian expereince I saw this state of mind as linked to experience of God and was cautious about manufacturing something. I guess it should be different now?

 

The only time I've been able to 'take myself there' deliberately is during child birth. But that's another story!

[Amanda]

There is a fantastic concept in Tao regrading this. They call is "wu-wei". It literaly means "do-nothing", but of course, it's a bit more complex than that.

 

It's not that you aren't doing anything, it's that what your doing requires no mental effort because you have completely internalized the process. It's like a basketball player that can tune out everyone around him and knows whether or not a shot is going to go in when the ball has only just left his hand. Or the butcher (this is a famous example) that can portion and clean an entire oxen in the time it would take others to do a small pig.

 

You get into the "flow" and everything...just...works...

NBBTB and Skankboy, I find your posts very interesting and reminds me of a saying I once heard. Sorry, I can't remember who said it, however it went something like this...

 

'Talent' is when you have mastered your art...

 

...'Genius' is when your art has mastered you!

 

It seems as if this is what you're speaking of in your posts.

[NotBlinded]

The 'state' of mind that I've tried to get to by mediatation - is the state of mind I often get to 'accidentally' - and I don't know if at some level I have a problem with anything that seems to 'engineer' the 'getting there'. I guess this was because as part of my christian expereince I saw this state of mind as linked to experience of God and was cautious about manufacturing something. I guess it should be different now?

 

The only time I've been able to 'take myself there' deliberately is during child birth. But that's another story!

Yes! Let it flow. Some people may hear a voice, but I like to describe it as a silent knowing...without words. It's an emotion that brings a huge smile to my face while at the same time, tears stream towards my smile and I can't help but to take the biggests breaths while sounds of joy escape my throat and my body feels alive...goosebumbps and all. I know that sounds corny and mushy but that is just what happens when this feeling overtakes me. It doesn't last very long, but the memory of it does. I think this may be what is spoken of when it's said that the truth cannot be put into words; it is just a knowing.

 

This experience is linked to god, IMO. Not the christian god because that god is nothing more than projections of people's ideas and made human. I'm going to try to put it in words, but what I am saying is not really what it is. I view god as Life or our natural state of peace and happiness. I think this state is innate and is who we really are. Our experiences often mask this state, but who does not desire this state? We search and search for something outside ourselves and always end up being disappointed because what we desire is inside us already. Again, just like getting something new to satisfy our desire for happiness, the new wears off and we search again for something to bring us happiness. This is what these people in the video seek, IMO. In order to reconnect with who we really are, we have to get rid of the idea that peace and happiness can be found 'out there' somewhere. Meditation is a practice that helps people shed off those lies in order to find what we're looking for that is buried beneath years of believing the lie that we are born worthless and must search for happiness. There are many more lies we also believe and they need to be un-learned in order to access what is real.

 

Okay...I just went on and on there didn't I?

[Open_Minded]

Hello Everyone:

 

Reading your discussion has been very interesting. Like all of you, I too feel that spirituality is natural and not supernatural. That is one of the things that really bothered me about that clip, it seemed as if the experience were almost "forced".

 

Anyway.... I just wanted you to know I'm hanging out on the fringes and just soaking it all in.

 

I like the way all of you think

[NotBlinded]

Hello Everyone:

 

Reading your discussion has been very interesting. Like all of you, I too feel that spirituality is natural and not supernatural. That is one of the things that really bothered me about that clip, it seemed as if the experience were almost "forced".

 

Anyway.... I just wanted you to know I'm hanging out on the fringes and just soaking it all in.

 

I like the way all of you think

Oh man! You didn't post very much. I look forward to your posts and, well, phooey!

[Open_Minded]

Hello Everyone:

 

Reading your discussion has been very interesting. Like all of you, I too feel that spirituality is natural and not supernatural. That is one of the things that really bothered me about that clip, it seemed as if the experience were almost "forced".

 

Anyway.... I just wanted you to know I'm hanging out on the fringes and just soaking it all in.

 

I like the way all of you think

Oh man! You didn't post very much. I look forward to your posts and, well, phooey!

 

Sorry NotBlinded....

 

I guess I'm just trying to sort some things out.

 

For instance... I do believe we all have the capacity to experience the wonder in life. But .... do you all think that because we come at it from different ways that our experiences are different?

 

I mean.... meditation has always worked for me. So has nature. But I'm not much of a musician.

 

The experiences I have because of my interaction with nature are somewhat different than my experiences that I link more with meditation. Although the two can (and often do) overlap, sometimes they don't.

 

For those of you who come at this whole area from other sides (like music, art, etc...) how would you define your experiences as different from what you called "spiritual" when you were involved in fundamentalism?

 

Does that give you enough to chew on NotBlinded