The UNholiness of the Bible

[NotBlinded]

Does that give you enough to chew on NotBlinded

No...because this

 

For those of you who come at this whole area from other sides (like music, art, etc...) how would you define your experiences as different from what you called "spiritual" when you were involved in fundamentalism?

 

doesn't speak to me.

 

That is fine though...I'm just havin' a little play time!

[Open_Minded]

Does that give you enough to chew on NotBlinded

No...because this

 

For those of you who come at this whole area from other sides (like music, art, etc...) how would you define your experiences as different from what you called "spiritual" when you were involved in fundamentalism?

 

doesn't speak to me.

 

That is fine though...I'm just havin' a little play time!

 

Well then, I know I may be sounding dense here... so please be patient with me. It's part of the reason for my silence...

 

How do the experiences that you now consider "spiritual" differ from those experiences that you used to consider "spiritual" when you were involved in a literalist religion?

 

I'm sorry if I'm being dense here.. I really am. But, as I've said before... this whole area of fundamentalism is quite new to me.

[NotBlinded]

 

Well then, I know I may be sounding dense here... so please be patient with me. It's part of the reason for my silence...

 

How do the experiences that you now consider "spiritual" differ from those experiences that you used to consider "spiritual" when you were involved in a literalist religion?

 

I'm sorry if I'm being dense here.. I really am. But, as I've said before... this whole area of fundamentalism is quite new to me.

No, you're not sounding dense because I never did experience anything 'spiritual' when I believed. My family stopped going to church when I was 6. I worked in a church nursery from 12 to 24 with my grandmother and we could hear the sermon over the speaker. But, I never really experienced anything like what I now experience. I have only experienced the latter a few times and it is beautiful. I did experience it when once when I believed but it had nothing to do with the faith! Imagine that! I was riding on the front of my brother's boat going towards the sunset and my mind stopped and I was at one with the beauty. I didn't have the tears...it was more solemn, but for a second, I forgot 'who' I was. Or, did I suddenly know who I was and didn't realize it? I couldn't name that experience or even understand what it was because I didn't understand what I understand now.

 

The only religious experience I can say I had was horrible! My sister and I went over to someone's house that she knew who spoke in tongues. This lady started rambling and then said, "My daughter, you must finish what you have started." I knew she was addressing me and everyone else did. I was praying about what to do about high school (I had dropped out). I don't know how she did it, but I thought god was speaking through her. My sister and I got ready to leave and her and her son, I think, stopped us and said it wasn't safe to leave yet. Well, I started to get a little more freaked out so that when we did leave, my window was cracked and some of my hair got sucked through the crack and I screamed! I thought Satan was after me...literally! It scared the hell out of me, or in me, I don't know! But, that is not something I would call spiritual. I would call that a lady that may have some sort of ESP and my imagination running wild.

[Antlerman]

Beautifully said. Art is indeed a wonderful way of accessing this. The best players are the ones that don't think about it. My brother is a drummer and he said the same thing...you can't think about it. That tells me that art and beauty is a natural state inside us and in order to access it, one must stop thinking!

It's so great to hear this said. I've always made a distinction between those who play music and those who are musicians. To me being a musician is when the instrument is merely a vehicle to give voice to the soul. Technical mastery of the instrument is not singing, though being proficient allows you to explore the soul with a greater vocabulary when you do.

 

Listening likewise provides a spiritual experience for me. However, the music needs to be music. Not pop, money making hits that deliberate seek to manipulate peoples' feelings. That is not unlike the Charismatic/Pentecostal manipulation to get you all excited and experience "the Spirit". It likewise is artificial. When I listen to say, Billie Holiday, after I'm done listening, I find it hard to put on another record because I don't want anything to disturb that sacred moment. That is real music that taps into the higher sense of being.

[Antlerman]

How do the experiences that you now consider "spiritual" differ from those experiences that you used to consider "spiritual" when you were involved in a literalist religion?

I'm just going to respond to this even though you've heard this from me already. I found that the religious system of Christianity actually interfered with my finding "God" or that sense of spiritual connectiveness with the world. I found it confining God into definitions and personalities that were far too restrictive and dissimilar to what I knew spiritually. (Funny! I just used the word KNEW! No small thing for me "knowing" without rationality ). The whole tongues thing was part of this. I had spirituality prior to Christianity. In it, the experience was diminished. After many years now I am free again to be a real human being.

 

The most important bit to add here is that like Alice and others have commented, my whole struggle has been feeling like I'm hypocritical about embracing that sense of the deeply spiritual. These conversations are finally setting me free from the "yoke" of the Christian religion.

[Open_Minded]

The most important bit to add here is that like Alice and others have commented, my whole struggle has been feeling like I'm hypocritical about embracing that sense of the deeply spiritual. These conversations are finally setting me free from the "yoke" of the Christian religion.

 

See, this is what I'm trying to figure out.

 

We all agree that these things are quite natural to the human experience ... and yet for some reason you struggled with feeling "hypocritical" after freeing yourself from fundamentalism?

 

Again, I'm not trying to aggravate anyone here... I truly am curious.

 

Were you afraid of natural spiritual experiences after leaving?

 

____________________________

 

Just so you know, I have reasons for querying all of you about these things. I'm not one to pry into such personal things. But... oh well.... here goes. If you understand why I keep coming back to this maybe it'll be easier for you to understand the basic level at which I am ignorant.

 

You all know about the two friends of my daughter's. One of the things I've noticed in these girls is their denial of experiences that I would classify as natural and common to being human. Not only denial of the experience, but fear as well. It's almost as if they have to get permission from someone to trust their own experiences....

 

I'm sorry .... on one level this may feel like a Q&A grilling to all of you. But, you've really helped me understand so much of what they are experiencing. This whole discussion has started to shed some light on things I didn't understand and I'm just seeking a deeper comprehension of what one feels.

[white_raven23]

You all know about the two friends of my daughter's. One of the things I've noticed in these girls is their denial of experiences that I would classify as natural and common to being human. Not only denial of the experience, but fear as well. It's almost as if they have to get permission from someone to trust their own experiences....

 

 

They do.

 

And it's not just religion at work there.....our culture is one on encouraging its citizens to mind and obey. Part of that is getting people to distrust their own thoughts and feelings.

 

Just walk into the Self-Help section of ANY bookstore. The section is HUGE. Read some of those titles, and you'll be second-guessing the meaning behind every sneeze your wife has.

 

Girls especially are deeply indoctrinated with approval seeking behaviors. The mixed messages women receive are MAJOR. Take a look at the Better Homes & Gardens magazine the next time you are at the grocery checkout. JUST the cover mind you.

 

A picture of a decadent dessert......and words promising the receipie inside! And the title of another article inside......How to Lose Weight, Change Shape, whatever. Obviously SHE (and yes....it's still supposed to be HER....the language gives it away) is not expected to eat any dessert...so who is it for? To please the people in her life. Who is the weight loss advice for? For her....in order to please at least one person in her life, or attract a person into her life.

 

Everything she is expected to do (still.......how many years has this been going on?), is FOR someone else. So all she is encouraged to expect in return is feedback. Positive or negative feedback. So if she has a thought or an idea, her first urge is to run it by someone else. See what they think. She cannot trust her own thoughts and ideas.

 

If she does ANYTHING on her own, without consulting someone, it causes worry in the people around her.

 

Yep, great modern age huh?

[Open_Minded]

They do.

 

And it's not just religion at work there.....our culture is one on encouraging its citizens to mind and obey. Part of that is getting people to distrust their own thoughts and feelings......

 

Everything she is expected to do (still.......how many years has this been going on?), is FOR someone else. So all she is encouraged to expect in return is feedback. Positive or negative feedback. So if she has a thought or an idea, her first urge is to run it by someone else. See what they think. She cannot trust her own thoughts and ideas.

 

OK... I agree with everything you said here. One of the things I've consistently been concerned about, in regards to these two girls is the crap that's being fed to them about their "role as a female".

 

But... well Antlerman expressed hesitation as well... so on one level these feelings have to transcend gender. What is it about the fundamentalist religion that causes people to distrust their own experience?

[white_raven23]

But... well Antlerman expressed hesitation as well... so on one level these feelings have to transcend gender. What is it about the fundamentalist religion that causes people to distrust their own experience?

 

Probably because of all the "devils are out to deceive you" rhetoric that has been pumped into them. Are the thoughts and feeling they are having their own? Or demonic tricks?

 

This kind of thinking encourages people to distrust their own common sense.

[Antlerman]

Just so you know, I have reasons for querying all of you about these things. I'm not one to pry into such personal things. But... oh well.... here goes. If you understand why I keep coming back to this maybe it'll be easier for you to understand the basic level at which I am ignorant.

You are certainly more than welcome to pry. I don't consider it that. This is also a process of self discovery which exposes so much that's been buried and hinders this process in me. A thought occurred to me as I read this, that we were indoctrinated to view anything in regard to spiritual thought or experience that did not fit the theology as being a deception. When you have an authoritative source such as the "infallible" word of God, who are you to question it with your own mortal thoughts? That is the devils influence. If it's not in the word of God, then it's a deception of the devil. To seriously question it, is to question God!!

 

Scary, isn't it?

 

My entire battle breaking away from them was coming to a place where I could no longer deny what I felt inside. It wasn't right, despite all the pat little arguments. I guess this is what finally led me to put all their doctrines on the table and examine them critically. If they were in fact sound, then I needed to look at why my feelings about all of it weren’t squaring with what they taught the Bible said. Of course the result is history.

 

Now for a great many years there's still been this weird tie to it. Even though I found them to be completely off beam in their teachings, somehow I still held this odd feeling that spirituality was somehow still their domain. It has finally come to a head that I cannot deny my personal response to life, and now to be able to finally sever that last insidious fiber of claim they made. I have come to fully understand that they are not only rationally twisted, but spiritually twisted. They never held any spiritual life, just an imitation of it cloaked under words of "the Truth".

 

Please excuse me if I have repeated that last rant before. This is my way of casting it away from me as I continue to see in grotesque nature. Fundamentalism is spiritual death. It is a spiritual prison which ensnares people in their pursuit of spiritulaity. It truely is Satan, as that myth represents.

[txviper]

“My entire battle…”

 

“breaking away from them was…”

“what they taught…”

”I found them to be completely off beam…”

“in their teachings…”

“their domain…”

“last insidious fiber of claim they made…”

“they are not only rationally twisted, but spiritually twisted…”

“They never held any spiritual life…”

 

 

 

Well gosh! This sounds like a very Mein Kampf moment for you!

 

Push the reset button.

[Open_Minded]

Well gosh! This sounds like a very Mein Kampf moment for you!

 

Push the reset button.

 

TX.... I have to tell you. You jumped into the wrong thread at the wrong time. See... these people are answering some VERY important questions for me. VERY important, questions I came to this board months ago to find out. So much of this discussion is a culmination of many discussions and I am FINALLY beginning to put some puzzle pieces together in my own life regarding the impact of fundamentalist thinking on individuals. So.... please:

 

If you want to contribute in a productive way... feel free... but you need to back up the rude attitude.

 

One other thing... in two different threads I posted the same thing to you and never got a response. Please don't come in here and try to participate in a discussion that is finally shedding some light on questions I've had for a long time unless you're willing to go back and address the posts in question. You can find them here:

 

http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?show...00entry132982 - Post 104

 

And

 

http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?showtopic=6382&st=40 - Post 43

[Antlerman]

“My entire battle…”

 

Well gosh! This sounds like a very Mein Kampf moment for you!

 

Push the reset button.

You're in the wrong forum to debate me.

 

One comment though, your attitude is exactly why I consider fundamentalism artificial in its claims to spiritual life. Nice Christian attitude and fruits of the Holy Spirit you are displaying to me. But I do thank you for confirming my hard learned lessons about fundamentalism. Catch me elsewhere, not here.

 

BTW. Those comments were idiotic

[Antlerman]

TX: I have posted a response to you in the appropriate thread. Please take your Battle to the post in this link:

 

http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?s=&s...ndpost&p=139037

[Open_Minded]

OK... I've made a "management decision"

 

Please bear with me a bit longer, after I've rung you dry of answers (which seems to be nearing an end fast) then I will start a new thread in the Ex-Christian Life forum pulling all the puzzle pieces together that I've found in my time on this board and asking for some feedback and advice.

 

But like I said to TX... before he so rudely interrupted.... some things are finally starting to pull together for me.

 

Before TX came in here I had asked:

 

What is it about the fundamentalist religion that causes people to distrust their own experience?

 

Please be patient, as I'm sure all this seems quite elementary to all of you. But, Antlerman and White_Raven answered. And I noticed some common denominators to other things people have said over time... and now I'm going to throw those out to you and see what you have to say.

 

White_Raven:

Probably because of all the "devils are out to deceive you" rhetoric that has been pumped into them. Are the thoughts and feeling they are having their own? Or demonic tricks?

 

This kind of thinking encourages people to distrust their own common sense.

 

Antlerman:

A thought occurred to me as I read this, that we were indoctrinated to view anything in regard to spiritual thought or experience that did not fit the theology as being a deception. When you have an authoritative source such as the "infallible" word of God, who are you to question it with your own mortal thoughts? That is the devils influence. If it's not in the word of God, then it's a deception of the devil. To seriously question it, is to question God!!

 

This is the line of thinking I see in these girls... how prevelent is this whole "teaching" within fundamentalist churches. I mean.... how much do kids hear the "devils are out to deceive you" rhetoric in their youth groups?

[Alice]

*This is me referring to the posts before the last one which appeared while I was mulling over my response to Tx's interuption and therefore does not follow on from O-M's management decision!*

 

I'm so glad that others feel this way - I wondered if I was simply being oversensitive today. I checked in earlier to make another post and the viper derailed my train of thought, I'm going to step back to before he posted, gather up my thoughts and post as if he hadn't turned up in the way that he had ...

 

(not that I'm wanting to exclude you tx - but this conversation is very important to me and I'm begining to make sense of number of things that are not that easy to talk about and have only really been possible because of the air of respect and keeness to try and understand different perspectives that has prevailed here)

[Alice]

OK... I've made a "management decision"

 

Please bear with me a bit longer, after I've rung you dry of answers (which seems to be nearing an end fast) then I will start a new thread in the Ex-Christian Life forum pulling all the puzzle pieces together that I've found in my time on this board and asking for some feedback and advice.

 

But like I said to TX... before he so rudely interrupted.... some things are finally starting to pull together for me.

 

Before TX came in here I had asked:

 

What is it about the fundamentalist religion that causes people to distrust their own experience?

 

Please be patient, as I'm sure all this seems quite elementary to all of you. But, Antlerman and White_Raven answered. And I noticed some common denominators to other things people have said over time... and now I'm going to throw those out to you and see what you have to say.

 

White_Raven:

Probably because of all the "devils are out to deceive you" rhetoric that has been pumped into them. Are the thoughts and feeling they are having their own? Or demonic tricks?

 

This kind of thinking encourages people to distrust their own common sense.

 

Antlerman:

A thought occurred to me as I read this, that we were indoctrinated to view anything in regard to spiritual thought or experience that did not fit the theology as being a deception. When you have an authoritative source such as the "infallible" word of God, who are you to question it with your own mortal thoughts? That is the devils influence. If it's not in the word of God, then it's a deception of the devil. To seriously question it, is to question God!!

 

This is the line of thinking I see in these girls... how prevelent is this whole "teaching" within fundamentalist churches. I mean.... how much do kids hear the "devils are out to deceive you" rhetoric in their youth groups?

 

My experience is that - it runs through everything.

 

And it plays to a very human trait of not wanting to be wrong and of the horror of feeling duped but magnified a thousand fold. Because if you get duped by the devil you won't just have egg on your face - you'll have a fiery pit of fire and flames for an eternity to deal with.

[Lycorth]

It definitely plays on people's fears of being tricked, and also of not having all-knowledge. We know we don't know it all, so saying there are devils tricking us is a great way to play on our fears and get us to listen to a church or pastor, etc, over our own good sense. I was suckered in by that for awhile, and I knew a few Xians who were seriously paranoid about being tricked by demons. All it does is make a crutch out of Xianity and convinces you you're crippled.

[Open_Minded]

I was suckered in by that for awhile, and I knew a few Xians who were seriously paranoid about being tricked by demons. All it does is make a crutch out of Xianity and convinces you you're crippled.

 

OK... last question, from me, about this issue.

 

If fear of the devil is a big part of the picture... then what Bible verses are used to push this fear???

 

I'm asking - because if I know the typical Bible verses and the way they are interpretted - then I'm in a better position to combat this mindset in subtle ways with my daughter's friends

[Antlerman]

OK... last question, from me, about this issue.

 

If fear of the devil is a big part of the picture... then what Bible verses are used to push this fear???

 

I'm asking - because if I know the typical Bible verses and the way they are interpretted - then I'm in a better position to combat this mindset in subtle ways with my daughter's friends

Oh, not the last question?? We like your questions, and love answering them! I'll toss out my perspective and look forward to hearing other's experiences with this.

 

In my experience there was a constant emphasis of all the verses in the Bible that:

 

1. Illustrated the dangers of doubt and how it caused great men of God to fall. This was a common sermon topic. “Doubting will trip you up”, etc.

 

2. A constant emphasis on obeying God's word. A couple illustrations of this were:

 

-The story of Israel wandering for 40 years in the desert because they didn’t believe God’s report

 

-Moses not being allowed to enter the Promised Land because he smote the rock instead of speaking to it like God had commanded him (disobeying God’s word)

 

-Avoiding temptation, particularly carnal lust, because it could lead you into disobeying God. Examples: Sampson and Delilah (One preacher actually said, "And Sampson is burning in hell today because he disobeyed God!"

 

-Lot's wife

 

- etc

 

Now all these were then tied together that the devil is out to get you to stumble and fall away from God. This is just one of the verses that would be used that popped into my mind:

 

1 Peter 5:8. "Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour"

 

Additionally, and most important to you I will suppose: YOU SHOULD NOT TRUST YOUR OWN THOUGHTS:

 

Proverbs 3: 5. "Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding"

 

Isaiah 55:8,9. "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,” says the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts."

 

There's more I can come up with, but I'm looking forward to hearing what others were told.

[TruthWarrior]

I was suckered in by that for awhile, and I knew a few Xians who were seriously paranoid about being tricked by demons. All it does is make a crutch out of Xianity and convinces you you're crippled.

 

OK... last question, from me, about this issue.

 

If fear of the devil is a big part of the picture... then what Bible verses are used to push this fear???

 

I'm asking - because if I know the typical Bible verses and the way they are interpretted - then I'm in a better position to combat this mindset in subtle ways with my daughter's friends

 

Actually I'd bet there's more quotes about fearing god then there is about fearing satan and demons. But here's some possible satan/demon fear-causing quotes:

 

"You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder." - James 2:19 (NIV)

 

"Be self-controlled and alert. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour." 1 Peter 5:8 (NIV)

 

For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

 

As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. - Ephesians 2:1-3 (NIV)

 

The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. - 2 Corinthians 4:4 (NIV)

 

Er...so it that God or Satan blinding people?

 

"When an evil spirit comes out of a man, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. Then it says, 'I will return to the house I left.' When it arrives, it finds the house unoccupied, swept clean and put in order. Then it goes and takes with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that man is worse than the first. That is how it will be with this wicked generation."- Matthew 12:42-45 (NIV)

 

 

"Therefore, my dear friends, flee from idolatry. I speak to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I say. Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ? Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all partake of the one loaf.

 

Consider the people of Israel: Do not those who eat the sacrifices participate in the altar? Do I mean then that a sacrifice offered to an idol is anything, or that an idol is anything? No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons. You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord's table and the table of demons. Are we trying to arouse the Lord's jealousy? Are we stronger than he?" 1 Corinthians 10:14-22

 

But right after that he says that your free to eat anything. Go figure.

 

 

"The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.

 

If you point these things out to the brothers, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, brought up in the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed. Have nothing to do with godless myths and old wives' tales; rather, train yourself to be godly. For physical training is of some value, but godliness has value for all things, holding promise for both the present life and the life to come." 1 Timothy 4:1-8 (NIV)

 

Then there's three more quotes with demons in it, in the book o' Revelation, Revelation 9:20, Revelation 16:14, Revelation 18:2, about people worshipping demons and idols, demon filled babylon and demonic miracles.

[Antlerman]

Oh yeah, preach it brother! Wow, that's it alright! Thanks for the memories.

[TruthWarrior]

I forgot this one:

 

"There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and he who fears is not perfected in love." --1 John 4:18

[webmdave]

Just for reference: Origins of "kid"

[SkepticOfBible]

"The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.

 

If you point these things out to the brothers, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, brought up in the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed. Have nothing to do with godless myths and old wives' tales; rather, train yourself to be godly. For physical training is of some value, but godliness has value for all things, holding promise for both the present life and the life to come." 1 Timothy 4:1-8 (NIV)

 

 

This last one looks to me as if it is aimed at the Jews. Could it be that the Jews for Judaism movement are following this verse?