The UNholiness of the Bible

[Antlerman]

Antlerman, may I ask you how fundamentalists used words like "mysticism", "ecstatic experience", "holy Spirit", or "let go and let God"?

 

Sometimes when you use this language it comes across in a different way than I would use it. To avoid miscommunication maybe we better figure out if we're on the same page

 

Looking forward to your reply

 

 

More on this later, but like they say, a picture paints a thousand words:

 

http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2006/01...thank-lawd.html

[Open_Minded]

Antlerman, may I ask you how fundamentalists used words like "mysticism", "ecstatic experience", "holy Spirit", or "let go and let God"?

 

Sometimes when you use this language it comes across in a different way than I would use it. To avoid miscommunication maybe we better figure out if we're on the same page

 

Looking forward to your reply

 

 

More on this later, but like they say, a picture paints a thousand words:

 

http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2006/01...thank-lawd.html

 

First response....

 

.... OH CRAP........ (Sense of sadness, anger, mixed together)

 

You needn't explain anymore

[Antlerman]

More on this later, but like they say, a picture paints a thousand words:

 

http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2006/01...thank-lawd.html

 

First response....

 

.... OH CRAP........ (Sense of sadness, anger, mixed together)

 

You needn't explain anymore

Ok, and so now that I have established my meaning.... let's pursue this conversation. Perhaps this explains a little better my knee-jerk reactions?

 

Now, like I've said elsewhere, this sort of religious ecstasy experience is nothing new and is rooted outside and prior to Christianity. It is currently practiced in many religions world-wide. Glossilalia or speaking in tongues is part of the ecstasy religions. The Church at Corinth was practicing this just like their neighbors down the street at the Temple of Dianna were. 1 Cor. 14 was more of a rebuke of them doing this in the church. Telling them in essence, "Unless you have someone who can interpret this type of speech, you should not be doing this in the church. There's no benefit to others in doing this". That instruction to not do it unless you have an interpreter was to say in an ironic sense, "Since no one can interpret ecstatic speech, then you have no choice but to remain silent." Plato mentions this ecstatic speech in religions 400 years before Christianity.

 

What does all this have to do with our conversation? Well, this is a large part of my having difficulty with any sort of mystery religion, or mysticisms. I am not going to criticize these people's experiences, merely put them into a context. They have nothing to do with reason. These are the experiences of the mystical through the vehicle of induced ecstasy, either through drugs or a self induced ecstasy brought on through chanting, drumming, pounding music, rocking, dancing, etc. This is the ecstasy religions.

 

Can this also can be said to be "another form of knowing? Epistemological mysticism? I would say it could, but again, where are the checks and balance to keep them from going off the deep end? In theology????

[Ouroboros]

http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2006/01...thank-lawd.html

I've been to hundreds of this kind of meetings. I've seen worse things, and experienced much more than that. Btw, supposedly, they're not possessed, but filled with the Holy Spirit. God's power is moving them around. Ain't that something. And I've been under that "influence" too. Many, many, many times. I explain it with mass hypnosis and hysteria.

 

Going 150% into experience God and the Holy Spirit, and then hear someone saying that "I didn't give my whole heart" into it. I think I gave more than most, but it doesn't make you Christian anyway, because there is no such thing as filled with the Holy Spirit or truly "saved".

[Amanda]

Now, like I've said elsewhere, this sort of religious ecstasy experience is nothing new and is rooted outside and prior to Christianity. It is currently practiced in many religions world-wide. Glossilalia or speaking in tongues is part of the ecstasy religions. The Church at Corinth was practicing this just like their neighbors down the street at the Temple of Dianna were. 1 Cor. 14 was more of a rebuke of them doing this in the church. Telling them in essence, "Unless you have someone who can interpret this type of speech, you should not be doing this in the church. There's no benefit to others in doing this". That instruction to not do it unless you have an interpreter was to say in an ironic sense, "Since no one can interpret ecstatic speech, then you have no choice but to remain silent." Plato mentions this ecstatic speech in religions 400 years before Christianity.

Antlerman, I think speaking in tongues is NOT about speaking a crazy language that maybe someone else can 'interpret'. I do not practice 'speaking in tongues', but I have perceived some benefits in this practice. IMO, if I were to do this... even silently, to speak gobble-dee-gook, it ties up my rational mind's ability to think about things like... I've got to go do laundry or such, and therefore allows subconcious messages to eventually be known. It's wierd. I personally have a hard time to quiet my mind to meditate, and was suggested this technique in a silent personal way... and was rather surprised at the subjectively positive results. I've never experienced this in a group setting, and now, unfortunately, I just don't take the time to meditate.

[Antlerman]

Antlerman, I think speaking in tongues is NOT about speaking a crazy language that maybe someone else can 'interpret'. I do not practice 'speaking in tongues', but I have perceived some benefits in this practice. IMO, if I were to do this... even silently, to speak gobble-dee-gook, it ties up my rational mind's ability to think about things like... I've got to go do laundry or such, and therefore allows subconcious messages to eventually be known.

I'm not saying it is worthless, only that I believe Paul's comment in 1 Cor was irony to make a point that in his idea of a Christian church service, ecstatic speech had no place. I agree that glossilalia is in fact a form of freeing yourself from the mundane. So is running down the aisles and flipping over pews. They are religious practices that have their place in the experience of the mysteries. My problem with them is 1) Christians try to make it something other than what it is; and 2) What is the system of checks and balances?

 

Amanda, I've spoken in tongues, and run down the aisle, and spoken with the "gift of interpretation"; and laid hands on people; regularly in my church experience. I know what that feeling is. What I saw happening around me was less than what I would say spirituality has to really offer. Their practice of it impressed me as vulgar! It was like some form of sexual self-gratification, or as a congregation, like some sort of group orgy. This was the beginning of my leaving them.

[Amanda]

Amanda, I've spoken in tongues, and run down the aisle, and spoken with the "gift of interpretation"; and laid hands on people; regularly in my church experience. I know what that feeling is. What I saw happening around me was less than what I would say spirituality has to really offer. Their practice of it impressed me as vulgar! It was like some form of sexual self-gratification, or as a congregation, like some sort of group orgy. This was the beginning of my leaving them.

 

Antlerman, I have to admit I don't think I've seen any of that personally. The little movie segment you shared in a prior post on this thread did make me think of a documentary that included a practice... surprisingly attributed to a sect of Suffis! I forgot what it was called, but it showed them quickly going around in circles! I wondered what all that was about?

[Open_Minded]

What does all this have to do with our conversation? Well, this is a large part of my having difficulty with any sort of mystery religion, or mysticisms. I am not going to criticize these people's experiences, merely put them into a context. They have nothing to do with reason. These are the experiences of the mystical through the vehicle of induced ecstasy, either through drugs or a self induced ecstasy brought on through chanting, drumming, pounding music, rocking, dancing, etc. This is the ecstasy religions.

 

Can this also can be said to be "another form of knowing? Epistemological mysticism? I would say it could, but again, where are the checks and balance to keep them from going off the deep end? In theology????

 

Wow... where to go with this.

 

First... I grew up in a pretty classic reserved German environment. As a child I attended classical 1960s type German Catholic church. Skip many years until my early 30s when I returned to church to attend typical boring Lutheran services...

 

What I saw on that clip is completely beyond my experience so I will try not to judge it.

 

Some points of information:

 

I have also spoken in tongues, but it is much different than what I heard on that clip.

 

1. It always followed a very deep form of meditation in which I was totally unaware of time/space anything. The ecstatic speech would "overtake" me as I was coming out of meditation.

2. It NEVER happened in public - I'm very reserved and can't ever imagine it happening in public.

3. It did not sound ANYTHING like I heard on that clip - it was almost musical. This is a very important element for me BECAUSE I AM NOT MUSICALLY INCLINED.

4. I did not know what to make of it at first ... it took months before I accepted it as normal (within the context of my spiritual disciplines.)

5. As I've matured in my meditative life that aspect has receded and only comes to the surface when I am dealing with something quite stressful. (And I am thankful for this - I would never try to induce something like this because one feels out of control when it is happening.)

 

Beyond my personal experience... I have learned - over the years to try and be objective about such events. So... the questions that came to mind as I was looking at the clip follow:

 

1. Of what benefit is this experience? When one pursues a life of meditation one of the first and most important lessons is the lesson of the false self. What I understand and have been taught about "mystical" experiences is that the end result is an increased awareness of the Sacred or the interconnectedness of all things. The other side of the coin is that the same "mystical" experience will bring with it a lower sense of "I" or of false self.

 

Check out the following link: http://www.unexplainedstuff.com/Religious-...na/Ecstasy.html

 

Evelyn Underhill states that ecstasy "represents

the greatest possible extension of the spiritual consciousness in the direction of Pure Being:

the blind intent stretching here receives its reward in a profound experience of Eternal Life. In

this experience, the consciousness of

'I-hood,'

of space and time…all that beings to the World of Becoming and our own place therein…are suspended

. The vitality which we are accustomed to split amongst these various things, is gathered up to form a state of pure apprehension…

a vivid intuition of the Transcendent

."

 

Universally - across religious boundries - when one comes away from an experience such as this - one is intimately aware of the interconnectedness of all that is - and of one's own place in that interconnectedness. The false sense of self decreases and the true sense of self (one's place in the all) increases.

 

Now... for those of you who have experienced what was on that clip... where does that experience fit in with the above observation?

 

BTW... I am not talking about the fundamentalist way of looking at "false self".

[Alice]

 

Amanda, I've spoken in tongues, and run down the aisle, and spoken with the "gift of interpretation"; and laid hands on people; regularly in my church experience. I know what that feeling is. What I saw happening around me was less than what I would say spirituality has to really offer. Their practice of it impressed me as vulgar! It was like some form of sexual self-gratification, or as a congregation, like some sort of group orgy. This was the beginning of my leaving them.

 

Your observations match mine. I never managed the whole tongues speaking thing. I'd migrated from churches where this was considered to be 'of the devil' and the general consensus in the churches I subsequently joined was that I needed to be 'released' from the bondage of my earlier disbelief. I did spend quite a while thinking my negative impressions of what I saw around me must be bourne of some kind of jealousy - so it does me good to read that a tongues speaker thought the same. There was many a sunday morning when half the women seemed to be having a when Sally met Harry - I'll have what she's having moment.

 

I really struggle to see anything 'spiritual' in a lot of activites that seem extrovert to me - but I am not sure if that is a personality preference? In my last church some worshippers would get an immense 'buzz' out of much calmer and comparatively quieter activities than those on the tape - but I still found it hard to see them as 'spiritual' activities. One woman - for whom the fact that 'God had healed of her shyness' was an often mentioned blessing - used to stand up and with a red blushing face and trembling voice - suggest we all do something cringe worthy, like 'offer up a new dance to the Lord' ( the sight of half a dozen slighty tubby middle aged couples doing a strange sort of morris dance without the bells still makes me wants to curl up in a ball and die) ... BUT look at how judgmental that sounds - just because someone is slighty tubby and middle aged and english are they to be denied the joy of dancing?? (but oh the agony of being grasped by the wrist and encouraged to 'let myself go'.)

 

I suspect that many were experiencing the adrenaline rush that comes with 'facing the fear' - in this case the fear being english reserve and maybe I was missing out by not having the courage to throw caution to the wind and maybe I'm just po-faced to label such things as 'pseudo spirituality'?

 

Just thinking out loud here ...

[Antlerman]

( the sight of half a dozen slighty tubby middle aged couples doing a strange sort of morris dance without the bells still makes me wants to curl up in a ball and die)

 

 

Thank you for that mental image! You made my week!!!

 

BTW, thanks for sharing the story. It really does help to hear someone else's impressions were like mine.

[Saviourmachine]

I've been to such churches. Until I couldn't think of them in any other way as barbarians. And I didn't understand why they didn't like the energy of e.g. Rammstein. That's almost the same stuff.

[Antlerman]

I've been to such churches. Until I couldn't think of them in any other way as barbarians. And I didn't understand why they didn't like the energy of e.g. Rammstein. That's almost the same stuff.

I can imagine maybe in a few more years instead of snake handling, some might be doing this:

 

 

[Saviourmachine]

I can imagine maybe in a few more years instead of snake handling, some might be doing this:

Yes, that's cool. Open_Minded, have you been to one of their shows (you're living in Germany, isn't it?)

[Antlerman]

OM, to better understand the language of what that video showed, this is known as being "slain in the spirit". It is a form of religious ecstasy, but I feel its traditions have more roots in African ritual. Shamanism also uses the pounding drums etc to achieve ecstasy:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slain_in_the_Spirit

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_ecstasy

 

I'll tell you more about how the church services are geared to promote this sort of ecstasy trance that happens.

[Open_Minded]

OM, to better understand the language of what that video showed, this is known as being "slain in the spirit". It is a form of religious ecstasy, but I feel its traditions have more roots in African ritual. Shamanism also uses the pounding drums etc to achieve ecstasy:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slain_in_the_Spirit

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_ecstasy

 

I'll tell you more about how the church services are geared to promote this sort of ecstasy trance that happens.

 

Thank you Antlerman:

 

I've been silent since my last post... because I'm trying to deal with some very negative feelings regarding this whole thing.

 

It angers me on a level that I can't describe -

 

Please tell me this sort of thing leads to some good...

 

In all my years of learning the meditative tradition of Christianity - I've never seen (or heard) of anything like this.

 

I've always been taught that the goal of a meditative practice was increased awareness of the interconnectedness of all, the "that which is", or that which I call "God".

 

And with this awareness comes an increased ability to see how every human, and every culture, and every THING is part of the whole. THAT WE ALL BELONG TO EACH OTHER AND WE ARE ALL A PART OF SOMETHING LARGER THAN OURSELVES (I call this something God, and recognize that others call it something else). Also with this awareness we become more aware of our own place in the ALL (ALPHA AND OMEGA). This is the classic dropping away of the "false self" known to every major world religion.

 

Please tell me that this sort of thing leads to some good. Because the only thing I can see it leading to is an increased since of importance ON the false self. Am I wrong????

[Antlerman]

Thank you Antlerman:

 

I've been silent since my last post... because I'm trying to deal with some very negative feelings regarding this whole thing.

 

It angers me on a level that I can't describe -

 

Please tell me this sort of thing leads to some good...

 

In all my years of learning the meditative tradition of Christianity - I've never seen (or heard) of anything like this.

 

I've always been taught that the goal of a meditative practice was increased awareness of the interconnectedness of all, the "that which is", or that which I call "God".

 

And with this awareness comes an increased ability to see how every human, and every culture, and every THING is part of the whole. THAT WE ALL BELONG TO EACH OTHER AND WE ARE ALL A PART OF SOMETHING LARGER THAN OURSELVES (I call this something God, and recognize that others call it something else). Also with this awareness we become more aware of our own place in the ALL (ALPHA AND OMEGA). This is the classic dropping away of the "false self" known to every major world religion.

 

Please tell me that this sort of thing leads to some good. Because the only thing I can see it leading to is an increased since of importance ON the false self. Am I wrong????

I am sorry to hear that exposing you to this has been so upsetting to you. I can understand what you are saying and can see how antithetical it all seems to the heart of what you hold as so sacred. This is what I was involved in. I left it.

 

I will try as best I can to describe what that type of experience was (I never really did the falling over thing), but I did do the tongues. Certainly others here should offer their experiences as mine is only one.

 

As you and I have discussed my own experience of transcendence, this really wasn't on that same level. Certainly after any such ecstatic experience of "the spirit" like this, they was a sense of being "touched", or one that gave you a perception of a greater sight, basically seeing things with a new perspective. But it was not like what I described in my "testimony" the last couple of days on the forum here.

 

I guess I began to see it as artificial. It was like everyone would go to church to be manipulated into experiencing the Holy Spirit. After an emotionally charged sermon, with intense energy from the pulpit, pounding on the pulpit in rhythm as he spoke with the amplification resonating the thump, thump, thumb as he shouted Jesus, Jesus, Jesus; Everybody singing the same chorus over and over in rhythm, over and over, the energy grows and grows, the rhythms continue, the intensity grows, people are shouting and becoming ecstatic, holy ghost tongues start sputtering out of the mouths of those around you, sister so and so starts running up and down. Louder, more intense.... get the picture?

 

I am so very sorry that this hurts your spirit to hear this, but this is what it is. It makes me feel very sad to hear this impacts your spirit so hurtfully.

 

Yes, there was a greater perspective as a result, but forgive me a thousand times for putting it this way, it was in much the same way our perspectives are changed after good sex.

 

Even though I wanted to believe, I could eventually not see it as anything but vulgar. It was masturbation. My sense of deep lasting peace of spirit and connectiveness to life did not come through these experiences. They were as temporary as sex. That deeply spiritual sense of wonder was never furthered through this, nor was ever encouraged by it. It was meaningful to people it seems only because it may have made God seem real to them, by them considering this was a direct miracle. That's it.

 

Now these are my perspectives. Please, some others share your experiences with this?

[NotBlinded]

Antlerman,

 

Joseph Campbell is a speaker I like to listen to and he speaks on the value of the myth system. Here is a excerpt from an interview:

 

"Tom: Many of these people are also interested in the creation of rituals. What role does ritual play in mythology?

 

Joseph: A ritual is the enactment of a myth. And through the enactment it brings to mind the implications of the life act that you are engaged in. Now, people ask me, what rituals can we have today? My answer is, what are you doing? What is important in your life? What is important, they say, is having dinner with their friends. That is a ritual.

 

This is the sense of T.S. Eliot's The Cocktail Party. A cocktail party is a ritual. It is a religious function in that way, and those people are engaged in a human relationship thing. This is the Chinese idea, the Confucian idea, that human relationships are the way you experience the Tao. Realize what you're doing when you're giving a cocktail party. You are performing a social ritual. You are conducting it when you sit down to eat a meal, you are consuming a life.

 

When you're eating something, this is something quite special to do. And you ought to have that thought when you eat a carrot as well as when you eat an animal, it seems to me. But you don't know what you're doing unless you think about it. That's what a ritual does. It give you an occasion to realize what you're doing so that you're participating in the inevitable energy of life in its exchanges. That's what rituals are for; you do things with intention, and not just in the animal way, ravenously, without knowing what you're doing.

 

This is true also of sex. People who just engage in sex as a fun game, as something exciting like that, don't realize what they're doing. Then you don't have the sacramentalization. And the whole reason marriage is a sacrament is that it lets you know what the hell is correct and what isn't, and what's going on here. A male and female coming together with the possibility of another life coming out of it - that's a big act."

 

Notice the difference though. One must know what they are doing in order for it to become meaningful. One must be aware. These people appear to me that they have no idea of what they are supposed to gain other than the quick satisfaction that comes from feeding the ego. The same could be said for sex if one is only in it to 'feel good'.

 

O_M, you don't have to worry...there are those out there that like the quickies...so to speak!

[Antlerman]

Notice the difference though. One must know what they are doing in order for it to become meaningful. One must be aware. These people appear to me that they have no idea of what they are supposed to gain other than the quick satisfaction that comes from feeding the ego. The same could be said for sex if one is only in it to 'feel good'.

 

O_M, you don't have to worry...there are those out there that like the quickies...so to speak!

NB, thanks so much for that post. I love what he has to say about ritual and the way it ties to sex. I agree very much with the connection to Pentecostal/Charismatic ecstasy. Shamanism or other rituals seek spiritual knowledge through these forms of self-induced trances, or through the use of mind-altering drugs. This is very different from a recreational drug user, or even a drug abuser. Pentecostals are "Spirit" abusers! That's a funny way to look at it, but it seems to fit.

 

One other footnote on ritual I would add just because it fascinates me. Ritual prepares the mind to experience the sacred, by focusing it through physical involvement. As you know, I am an audiophile who finds great spiritual experience in the listening of music. Vinyl records are the best medium for recorded music, 100 times better that CD's. For me, the manual cleaning of the record, clamping it on the turntable, moving the needle over the lead-in grove, and then slowing dropping the needle down the vinyl, is very much a ritual experience that sets my mind to receive the sound experience of the music. Digital? You just slap the disk in the drive and close the door, and out comes a bunch of artifical digital noise, whoopie! (A total geek, I know )

[Open_Minded]

I am sorry to hear that exposing you to this has been so upsetting to you. I can understand what you are saying and can see how antithetical it all seems to the heart of what you hold as so sacred. This is what I was involved in. I left it.

 

Antlerman... please do not feel as though you have to apologize. I came to this board to learn, this is a part of learning and I accept my emotions at that level. This is not the first time I have felt anger in reading things on this board. When I first came here I lurked around the testimonial area for awhile and sometimes felt anger at the way people had been treated by family and friends - and other things made me feel sad and angry as well. It's all part of learning and I accept it, so don't feel any guilt at introducing me to something new.

 

 

I guess I began to see it as artificial. It was like everyone would go to church to be manipulated into experiencing the Holy Spirit. After an emotionally charged sermon, with intense energy from the pulpit, pounding on the pulpit in rhythm as he spoke with the amplification resonating the thump, thump, thumb as he shouted Jesus, Jesus, Jesus; Everybody singing the same chorus over and over in rhythm, over and over, the energy grows and grows, the rhythms continue, the intensity grows, people are shouting and becoming ecstatic, holy ghost tongues start sputtering out of the mouths of those around you, sister so and so starts running up and down. Louder, more intense.... get the picture? ....

 

Yes, there was a greater perspective as a result, but forgive me a thousand times for putting it this way, it was in much the same way our perspectives are changed after good sex.

 

Even though I wanted to believe, I could eventually not see it as anything but vulgar. It was masturbation. My sense of deep lasting peace of spirit and connectiveness to life did not come through these experiences. They were as temporary as sex. That deeply spiritual sense of wonder was never furthered through this, nor was ever encouraged by it. It was meaningful to people it seems only because it may have made God seem real to them, by them considering this was a direct miracle. That's it.

 

Again... no need to apologize. This is exactly what I was seeing as well. This is what made me sad and angry. But there is more... please be patient with me as I try and sort this out.

 

When we think about spirituality we don't often think about why is there such a thing as spirituality. I mean what is the purpose of pursuing a spiritual discipline?

 

Part of the purpose is the quest itself, I mean isn't that what spirituality is - a quest? And so one could say the purpose of a spiritual practice is the quest for "truth". But, I think there is more. In my mind - why should the human animal be so inclined to seek the truth? If we are thinking in terms of evolution here... why does the human animal NEED the quest for truth to survive?

 

Well - given the knowledge we have today - I think it is fair to say that the human animal NEEDS the quest for truth to survive - because once a single human being realizes s/he is part of an interconnected whole than that human being responds differently to the whole. In concrete terms - humans who are aware that they are part of an interconnected whole are more likely to respond to the world in ways that would pursue peace between cultures, religions, nations, etc... Human beings who realize they are part of an interconnected whole are more likely to respond to environmental problems in a way that would ensure that the world is still here for our children and great-grandchildren to enjoy... We NEED spiritual seeking to survive because if we didn't have it we would continue to operate from the level of "I" and not "we".

 

So... what does all that have to do with the clip you provided Antlerman. Well first I watched that clip and all I could think about were the two teen friends of my daughter. The girls that are getting caught up in fundamentalism. I've never heard them say their congregation "speaks in tonques", but I still couldn't help thinking of their young - impressionable minds.

 

You and I know - as adults - how normal it is for a child to think the world revolves around them. Their joys and sorrows are so much greater because they are still operating under the false assumption that their joys and sorrows are theirs alone. That no one could possible know how they feel, that no one has ever been through the same experience, etc....

 

Well all I saw on that clip was minds being manipulated - and it made me angry because in the world we live in today, we can't afford that type of self-gratification.

 

As you said, Antlerman, it's a sort of "masturbation". Or as NotBlinded said:

 

Notice the difference though. One must know what they are doing in order for it to become meaningful. One must be aware. These people appear to me that they have no idea of what they are supposed to gain other than the quick satisfaction that comes from feeding the ego. The same could be said for sex if one is only in it to 'feel good'.

 

Or as I said... it has nothing to do with the pursuit of truth, the goal of increased awareness of the interconnectedness of all that is. It has to do with feeding the "false self", the ego.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong - but would it be appropriate to say that coming out of these experiences people feel that they are somehow "set apart" or different because "God touched them"?

 

If this is so - then on a global scale - why are we surprised that literalists are less likely to be concerned about the needs of the world? Or to be concerned about the need for peace-building between cultures, religions, or nations? Or that literalists are less likely to be concerned about environmental issues?

 

Beyond all that it also makes me angry - because in encouraging individuals to pursue self-gratification we are encouraging self harm - that is the end result of being self-absorbed - is it not? When individuals become convinced that THIS is the only way to experience God, then why search for the fullness of reality?

 

Again ... please don't be overly concerned with my emotions about this. I expected that the learning would not be easy when I came here. It's bound to have it's moments.

 

One last thing, NotBlinded thanks for the laugh --- I needed it

 

O_M, you don't have to worry...there are those out there that like the quickies...so to speak!

 

My only response is - they can have their quicky - just leave the children and teens out of it

[NotBlinded]

I understand your anger O_M and I feel it too and I have to fight it. This is what these people are taught and it's just a continuation of the mind-set. I feel sorry for them, even though they would not want my sympathy.

 

We go through our daily lives and often wonder why we feel so badly. We are supposed to be special and unique...unlike any other being that has ever lived before. We are taught this and we teach our children this because it is a quick fix to the way we feel. The problem is is that this feeling of being inadaquate is a direct response to being told that we are special and unique. If we are special and unique, why don't I feel like it? Then the opposite feeling comes from the other end of the spectrum...I am not special and therefore everyone else is better than I am! Oh the horror!

 

There has to be a better way to make our children feel special without building their egos above others. How does one go about doing this in a society that emphasizes uniqueness? I can tell my daughter that everyone is special, but that doesn't really make her feel any better. I don't know how to do it!

[Alice]

When we think about spirituality we don't often think about why is there such a thing as spirituality. I mean what is the purpose of pursuing a spiritual discipline?

...

Part of the purpose is the quest itself, I mean isn't that what spirituality is - a quest? And so one could say the purpose of a spiritual practice is the quest for "truth". ..

...

Correct me if I'm wrong - but would it be appropriate to say that coming out of these experiences people feel that they are somehow "set apart" or different because "God touched them"?

...

If this is so - then on a global scale - why are we surprised that literalists are less likely to be concerned about the needs of the world? Or to be concerned about the need for peace-building between cultures, religions, or nations? Or that literalists are less likely to be concerned about environmental issues?

...

When individuals become convinced that THIS is the only way to experience God, then why search for the fullness of reality?

 

I think you are so right here - fundamentalism is about saying 'this is the answer to your quest - look no futher (or be damned) the way we experience God in our sect - is the only way'.

 

I agree with you and Antlerman that the example of the tape does not appear to be about a meaningful spirituality - and my observations and experiences in my own walk through christianity produced very similar conclusions.

 

My sense of deep lasting peace of spirit and connectiveness to life did not come through these experiences. They were as temporary as sex. That deeply spiritual sense of wonder was never furthered through this, nor was ever encouraged by it. It was meaningful to people it seems only because it may have made God seem real to them, by them considering this was a direct miracle. That's it.

 

Now these are my perspectives. Please, some others share your experiences with this?

 

The last church I attended was big on inviting people to services where guests would 'see God work in all his power'. A couple of times this resulted in me sitting with people in the foyer who had been completely freaked out by events in the church trying to explain why there was so much bizarre behaviour going on - at the time all I could come up with was 'god won't make anything happen to you that you don't want to happen'. I think there was probably more truth in that comment than I realised at the time.

 

This church was big on being 'slain in the spirit' - I'm not sure how much of this is because of cultural bias - but it was generally more restrained than the 'worship' on the tape. Although there were always a handful that responded in loud and dramatic ways - most people, when prayed for - fell to the floor - hopefully neatly caught by a trained 'catcher' - where they remained in a sort of catatonic state for variable lengths of time. Sometimes people would twitch and jerk, other times they looked serene and smiled beautified eyes closed grins.

 

I noticed that those who fell - and those who responded more dramatically - would often have been making a repetitive movement before their Holy Spirit moment - rocking, or rapidly shaking a hand. There was a huge amount of verbal suggestion going on as well - for example, after an emotionally draining sermon, the pastor would ask all those who had been 'touched' by the message to stand. We would then be instructed to close our eyes and hold out our hands. we would be told that those God wanted to 'minister' to would start to feel a tingling in their fingertips and their hands would start to feel warm. We would be encouraged to 'let go' - we would be advised 'not to resist the spirit' - we would be encouraged to believe that sometimes God had to take us to floor, so that he could really begin to work in our hearts, if you feel yourself beginning to go - don't worry - someone will catch you .....

 

Of course anyone who stands still, eyes closed, arms outstretched for any particular period of time will begin to feel off balance - then when one of those 'catchers' blows the spirit of God onto you .... over you go!

 

I didn't ever have this experience myself - not beyond the tingling fingers anyway - It's quite hard being the only person left standing in the room! I guess in a way I was in bondage to my past - because in everyone of these 'Holy Spirit' meetings - I kept hearing repeated in my head part of the Anglican liturgy ... that begins 'Now to Him who is able to keep you from falling ...' I think the rest of the prayer continues 'be all honour, glory and praise' but the first part of it stayed in my head because as a young choir girl this was the cue for us to stand up and face Jerusalem and make the sign of the cross (different church culture altogether!!)

 

Whilst for the most part the 'movement of the Holy Spirit' that influenced the worship I participated in - was gentler and maybe would have been 'less offensive' than the service on the tape - I tend to see a lot of things on continuums and I think the essence was very similar. I agree very much with what Antlerman is saying, and I also came to see it as false and whipped up. (For a while I wondered if this was because I wasn't connected to God in a way that others were - people would talk of their heightened sense of awareness of God's presence, of seeing visions and of feeling deliriously happy, sometimes I wanted what they were having, but really I just wanted to know that God was real)

 

Where it used to get confusing for me - is the gentler end of the continuum used to look much more like something that was of 'spiritual benefit' - but I never did quite establish if this was just a personality preference or not ... at one stage I'd been quite into the medieval ecstatics - and this looked a bit like a short cut, missing out the extreme fasting and flagellation!

 

My observations however - where that the lasting benefits seemed few and far between and the sense of euphoria would seemingly quickly pass - and recipients would be back for their next 'fix' the following Sunday, there seemed to be no advantage in terms of tackling patterns of negative behaviour - no increase in the 'fruits' (although I feel terribly judgemental saying this)

 

A similar conundrum presents itself when I consider dance as spiritual expression. I have often found the medium of dance to be one that 'stirs my spirit' and yet this only occurs when I consider the dance to be beautiful, or skilful - and yet to deny all but the beautiful and skilful the joy of dance seems contrary to what I want to believe about the human spirit and contrary to what I wanted to believe about the spirit of God.

 

Antlerman's sex analogy is apt and NBBTL I think sums up the dilemma I am left with - who are we to say what constitutes meaningful sex for another person?

[Antlerman]

Part of the purpose is the quest itself, I mean isn't that what spirituality is - a quest? And so one could say the purpose of a spiritual practice is the quest for "truth". But, I think there is more. In my mind - why should the human animal be so inclined to seek the truth? If we are thinking in terms of evolution here... why does the human animal NEED the quest for truth to survive?

 

Well - given the knowledge we have today - I think it is fair to say that the human animal NEEDS the quest for truth to survive - because once a single human being realizes s/he is part of an interconnected whole than that human being responds differently to the whole. In concrete terms - humans who are aware that they are part of an interconnected whole are more likely to respond to the world in ways that would pursue peace between cultures, religions, nations, etc... Human beings who realize they are part of an interconnected whole are more likely to respond to environmental problems in a way that would ensure that the world is still here for our children and great-grandchildren to enjoy... We NEED spiritual seeking to survive because if we didn't have it we would continue to operate from the level of "I" and not "we".

I've just been having some interesting thoughts today about this that may be a topic for another discussion thread: Tribalism and ethnocentrism. I need to flesh this out a bit more but I wonder how much what you describe above is because of the mixed cultures we are confronted within our daily worlds. We are afterall, inherently tribal as individuals, being forced to lived together for the mutual benefit of a national community (or even global now with current global communication networks). But not just on a large scale such as a nation, but a city of 10's or 100's of thousands, or even millions. If all there was a group of 50, what would our views on spirituality be? Would it be anything like what we have inherited through culture, or evolving today as in evidenced in our discussions?

 

The pursuit of understanding one another through common experience, and in this case the joy of existence, offers peace versus war. Sports is another way this is tension is alleviated (vicarious acting out of rival tribes wars through being a "fan"), but I don't think the dialog it creates goes far enough to provide any lasting benefit to society or human meaning. (Sorry, just one of those passing thoughts that seemed intriguing to me. Maybe it may lead somewhere? )

 

Correct me if I'm wrong - but would it be appropriate to say that coming out of these experiences people feel that they are somehow "set apart" or different because "God touched them"?

 

If this is so - then on a global scale - why are we surprised that literalists are less likely to be concerned about the needs of the world? Or to be concerned about the need for peace-building between cultures, religions, or nations? Or that literalists are less likely to be concerned about environmental issues?

Ok, I will expose a personal flaw in myself for the sake of our discussion. I have a tendency to compare myself to others, for good and for bad. If I am feeling particularly insecure, I will finding myself seeking strength by looking at how much better I am then someone else, or even assuming an attitude of arrogance to compensate. Or the opposite, if I am feeling particularly unhappy about something in myself, I will torment myself by negatively evaluating myself by viewing everyone as better, smarter, more talented, etc than I am. I have learned to work with this tendency in myself and maintain an edge over it, but it's something always there.

 

Now here's the point: Want to know why the cult of fundamentalism appealed to me??? You betcha, everyone was wrong and I was right!! Such a poor misguided twit of a young man I was. I was prime pickings for them to prey on, (in the name of Jesus, of course).

 

In the light of that, many times when I see the rhetoric spouting, Bible quoting fundi come onboard here, I look at what motivates them and try (most often with little success in this environment) to communicate with the person who is behind that facade of doctrinal armor. What motivates them, and speak to that, not the particulars of their argument. That's all a protective shield, and I firmly believe that once someone's personal needs are addressed, their interest in all this doctrinal system will become unimportant and uninteresting to them.

[Open_Minded]

Hello everyone:

 

You've all given me so much to think about. Thank you. I do feel better now that I've vented my anger on all of you - and appologize for going off topic

 

NotBlinded.. as a parent I share your questioning:

 

There has to be a better way to make our children feel special without building their egos above others. How does one go about doing this in a society that emphasizes uniqueness? I can tell my daughter that everyone is special, but that doesn't really make her feel any better. I don't know how to do it!

 

I wish I had a pat answer... but having 3 children the one thing I've learned is that what works for one doesn't always work for the other The only consistent with any child is to simply love them, and from what little I know of you - it seems clear that you do a wonderful job of loving

 

2 of our children are out of high school now, and I can be a bit more objective. My father has a little quip he repeats when one of his six children is mussing about one of his grandchildren, "don't worry, children grow up in spite of their parent's"

 

There is truth in that. You are a loving and compassionate person - I'm sure you are a loving and compassionate parent - and your children will grow up just fine, even if you do occassionally make mistakes:) You love them, that is the most important ingredient.

 

All of you... thank you .. for your patience with my intense response to that clip. I've learned.... and I'm appreciative of your patience in my learning process.

 

 

And now... back to the thread.... UNholiness of the Bible ... was it

[Antlerman]

All of you... thank you .. for your patience with my intense response to that clip. I've learned.... and I'm appreciative of your patience in my learning process.

 

 

And now... back to the thread.... UNholiness of the Bible ... was it

By all means, I'd like to keep going with where we were. It's really starting to hit into the core of many things for myself that really ultimately do tie into the original topic. But at this point, since Ssel is history around here, and this discussion has become so large it has evolved a bit, and being 100 percent direct on topic isn't all that sacred at this point, IMO. I wouldn't want to kill where it's going because of trying to keep something this big "pure". Besides, it all ties into the topic anyway. What is sacred? How do fundi's see the bible, how do they approach their spirituality? It all ties together.

[Open_Minded]

Besides, it all ties into the topic anyway. What is sacred? How do fundi's see the bible, how do they approach their spirituality? It all ties together.

 

Please forgive me for being so sarcastic, but after the last portion of the string this observation seems to fit.

 

"How do fundi's see the Bible"?

 

Given the last several posts I'm going to take a stab at it and say, "It's their first tool of choice for spiritual masturbation".

 

I look forward to responses from those of you who have actually been in these groups and can speak with more authority than I can