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Modesty And Thought Crimes


claireann
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One of my Christian friends on Facebook just posted a link to this blog post: http://morelikemomma.com/2013/06/14/can-you-be-a-lady-without-being-modest/ and she's getting lots of comments saying how wonderful and we should share this with our teen daughters. 

 

Blah! I need to post here or I'm going to have to let fly on Facebook and I really don't want to get into it with them. There's just so much here that exemplifies why Christianity used to make me feel like shit. Women are not responsible for how men think, it's not up to us to stop them from thinking sexy thoughts. We're all responsible for our own thoughts and actions. This is just one small shuffle away from saying victims were asking for it because of how they're dressed. Why is nobody telling guys not to wear tight trousers? Plus, why is it wrong for guys to think a girl is sexually attractive? Or vice versa? Just so many levels of messed up.

 

Phew, feel better now.

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Gurgh, the post makes my skin crawl, the idea that a woman's natural form only exists to incite sinful lusts in men really should've been updated now, at least to include lusts in females too haha.

Also - ' I personally have a really hard time hearing any kind of advice from a woman who dresses for that kind of attention. ' she's not going to listen to a woman just because her skirt is slightly too short? Is her skin sending off some sort of dangerous brain-melting toxins whenever she speaks or something?

People are still going to find ways of objectifying and vilifying women whatever they choose to wear, a friend of mine once got told off by someone in the church for wearing shapeless clothes because 'it encourages men to imagine what her figure may be like'. Great.

If men are finding it difficult having thoughts they consider to be inappropriate then surely it's something they should address at it's source and exercise some self-control instead of blaming the lady who is comfortable enough with her body enough to not be actually worrying whether she should hide it away or not.

 

I witnessed a nudist event (by surprise!) recently where a bunch of men and older women were completely butt naked in public, the christians I was with's (hilarious being in their company when it happened btw) main complaint was that the sight of their bodies was gross and disgusting, no talk of 'omg poor good christians getting aroused by this'. Why the double standard man? It's only immodest if you're hot and otherwise it's just icky?

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Exactly!  Plus it's completely impossible to manage.  Dudes like all kinds of different things. It's different for everyone.  Some dudes may look past a conservatively dressed woman, while others might think, "Got DAMN!!! I bet she looks fucking awesome nekkid!"

 

We're dudes... It's how we're wired and that verse they mentioned is one of the key reasons so many men in Christianity are stuck in a vicious cycle of guilt. 

 

It's how we are and it essentially demonizes us for being us.  Fuck that shit!

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Yup, dudes will be dudes. And hot girls will be hot girls even if they're wearing an over-sized binbag. Sometimes especially happy.png

The 'imagine what your future husband would think about you wearing those clothes out' trick doesn't work either, I bet if I left it up to my boything I'd be wearing a string bikini all the time so he could feel all smug hehe.

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Guest Babylonian Dream
Plus, why is it wrong for guys to think a girl is sexually attractive? Or vice versa? Just so many levels of messed up.

Thank you! And its not just them, its also feminazis.... we as a culture are obsessed prudishly with the dumbest things. That's why its wrong. Culturally.

 

To be honest, nothing is wrong with any of this. Human sexuality and the human body is a beautiful thing. And at the other extreme, its definitely not a sex object either. People are extreme.

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I saw a girl over my lunch break the other day that was wearing a teeny-tiny little dress.  It was a strapless dress that she kept tugging to stay up, and it barely covered her bottom when she sat down.  With summer upon us, I think it is an excellent time to talk about modesty.  Last summer I was at a baseball game on the 4th of July in Kansas City and it was HOT.  It was so hot and humid and miserable that I wanted to strip down to my underwear and run through a sprinkler.  But I do know even though it is difficult and takes effort, it is possible to dress modestly even on the hottest days.

She's just mad that she couldn't run around naked through a sprinkler XD

 

To be honest, I think that should be legal. Whatev. It's funny how they busy themselves so much with what other people are doing.

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I have to admit to laughing at a girl I saw the other day wearing these leggings with lace all the way up the side so you could pretty clearly see her pants underneath through the lace though. I'm gonna say that was from a fashion perspective rather than a modesty one so I can continue complaining about the prudes :P

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Having read some of the OP's articles blogs other posts, I've gotta say, the writer of the blog is clearly anything but modest. She comes acrossed as arrogant and selfabsorbed. Even in the article, the whole time she is either complaining about others, or complaining that others aren't adding up to her divine ways.

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Wow, "Ladies, show too much skin, and you'll be giving men with no control over their thoughts a one-way ticket straight to Hell for eternal torture!"

 

That's bullshit.

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This was pretty much the norm for the last church i visited regularly. It was all about modesty, and for some of them, nothing would ever be modest enough. Sounds like the author of that stupid blog is no exception. Looking back, it was shit like this that made me feel even worse about myself than i already did at the time, among other things beyond my control. I remember one time how the pastor there bitched about how girls would wear shorts to services in the summer during a homily, and how he didn't like it and didn't wanna see it. 

 

Anyways, I was reading something somewhere about how modesty culture can be a catalyst for rape culture. Men have agency, but modesty culture teaches them otherwise, and that the onus is on women to be their gatekeepers. It's ridiculous, b/c if a man takes advantage of a woman, modesty culture absolves them of responsibility and shifts it onto his victim.

 

It's bullshit. Utter bullshit.

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One of my Christian friends on Facebook just posted a link to this blog post: http://morelikemomma.com/2013/06/14/can-you-be-a-lady-without-being-modest/ and she's getting lots of comments saying how wonderful and we should share this with our teen daughters. 

 

Blah! I need to post here or I'm going to have to let fly on Facebook and I really don't want to get into it with them. There's just so much here that exemplifies why Christianity used to make me feel like shit. Women are not responsible for how men think, it's not up to us to stop them from thinking sexy thoughts. We're all responsible for our own thoughts and actions. This is just one small shuffle away from saying victims were asking for it because of how they're dressed. Why is nobody telling guys not to wear tight trousers? Plus, why is it wrong for guys to think a girl is sexually attractive? Or vice versa? Just so many levels of messed up.

 

Phew, feel better now.

Welcome.

FYI, I have been told to not dress so sexy if I didn't want to be hit on by so many men.  That was when I was in my early 20's, about the time I went into christianity.  Since I'm a heterosexual man, I'm in a position to say it applies to you as well.  Women have power to influence men's behaviors by how they dress and act.  It is in your power.  You are right though, men think of sex no matter what.  I sure as hell do, despite that I'm almost too old to do anything about it.  Just realize that to us you are sexy.  If you want to ease us off, dress modestly.  It's common sense.  If you want to dress super sexy, do it with a man at your side or with your loyal man servants who will guard you, or with your girlfriends.  Actually, a group of girls being sexy together make an amazing defense against overly assertive guys.  Teamwork.  Guys won't usually hit so hard on a woman who's too tight with other girls.

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I saw a girl over my lunch break the other day that was wearing a teeny-tiny little dress.  It was a strapless dress that she kept tugging to stay up, and it barely covered her bottom when she sat down.  With summer upon us, I think it is an excellent time to talk about modesty.  Last summer I was at a baseball game on the 4th of July in Kansas City and it was HOT.  It was so hot and humid and miserable that I wanted to strip down to my underwear and run through a sprinkler.  But I do know even though it is difficult and takes effort, it is possible to dress modestly even on the hottest days.

She's just mad that she couldn't run around naked through a sprinkler XD

 

To be honest, I think that should be legal. Whatev. It's funny how they busy themselves so much with what other people are doing.

 

 

That's a sign that their lives are so boring that they feel the need to worry about what everyone else is doing. Sad, really.

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 If you want to ease us off, dress modestly.  It's common sense. 

 

Nah, it's common sense that the way a woman (or man) dresses is never a free pass to act inappropriately around her, if she tells someone to back off, no amount of slutty clothing should 'influence' them to not back off.

Men may have impulses, and sure being aroused by the site of cleavage is perfectly natural, but they're not dumb animals so it makes no sense to expect them to act like them. The more we adjust how we'd otherwise dress in fear of this in civilised society, the more we make acting like that seem an acceptable thing to do.

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I look at it this way, if you dress like a prositiute, people will treat you like one. It's not right, it's not fair but it's the way people want to think. I don't show much when I dress, but then I am an introvert and I don't like attention. Most people are extroverts and they seem to get off on the attention the way they dress brings them. I don't like seeing young girls with their ass and boobs hanging out, its just not necessary.

 

In Korea last year I was SO hot I wanted to die, but they don't wear strappy tops or short dresses there. I could not go outside much because what I was expected to wear was just too hot. If you wear strappy tops there, old women will yell at you in the streeet to cover yourself. In Australia where I live, people are practically naked most of summer because it is so bloody hot.

 

I think it is a shame that people just won't leave each other alone to be who they are.

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One of my Christian friends on Facebook just posted a link to this blog post: http://morelikemomma.com/2013/06/14/can-you-be-a-lady-without-being-modest/ and she's getting lots of comments saying how wonderful and we should share this with our teen daughters. 

 

Blah! I need to post here or I'm going to have to let fly on Facebook and I really don't want to get into it with them. There's just so much here that exemplifies why Christianity used to make me feel like shit. Women are not responsible for how men think, it's not up to us to stop them from thinking sexy thoughts. We're all responsible for our own thoughts and actions. This is just one small shuffle away from saying victims were asking for it because of how they're dressed. Why is nobody telling guys not to wear tight trousers? Plus, why is it wrong for guys to think a girl is sexually attractive? Or vice versa? Just so many levels of messed up.

 

Phew, feel better now.

Welcome.

FYI, I have been told to not dress so sexy if I didn't want to be hit on by so many men.  That was when I was in my early 20's, about the time I went into christianity.  Since I'm a heterosexual man, I'm in a position to say it applies to you as well.  Women have power to influence men's behaviors by how they dress and act.  It is in your power.  You are right though, men think of sex no matter what.  I sure as hell do, despite that I'm almost too old to do anything about it.  Just realize that to us you are sexy.  If you want to ease us off, dress modestly.  It's common sense.  If you want to dress super sexy, do it with a man at your side or with your loyal man servants who will guard you, or with your girlfriends.  Actually, a group of girls being sexy together make an amazing defense against overly assertive guys.  Teamwork.  Guys won't usually hit so hard on a woman who's too tight with other girls.

 

 

The way you're saying this makes it sound like a guy can't help but rape a woman if she turns him on. That kind of attitude/behaviour is simply irresponsible.

 

By the time we mature into adults we should have developed enough self-control of our bodies and emotions to evaluate our words and actions.

 

It helps if we can also control our thoughts and feelings, but if you can't do that you can control your words and actions. Those who don't usually end up in jail sooner rather than later.

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One of my Christian friends on Facebook just posted a link to this blog post: http://morelikemomma.com/2013/06/14/can-you-be-a-lady-without-being-modest/ and she's getting lots of comments saying how wonderful and we should share this with our teen daughters. 

 

Blah! I need to post here or I'm going to have to let fly on Facebook and I really don't want to get into it with them. There's just so much here that exemplifies why Christianity used to make me feel like shit. Women are not responsible for how men think, it's not up to us to stop them from thinking sexy thoughts. We're all responsible for our own thoughts and actions. This is just one small shuffle away from saying victims were asking for it because of how they're dressed. Why is nobody telling guys not to wear tight trousers? Plus, why is it wrong for guys to think a girl is sexually attractive? Or vice versa? Just so many levels of messed up.

 

Phew, feel better now.

Welcome.

FYI, I have been told to not dress so sexy if I didn't want to be hit on by so many men.  That was when I was in my early 20's, about the time I went into christianity.  Since I'm a heterosexual man, I'm in a position to say it applies to you as well.  Women have power to influence men's behaviors by how they dress and act.  It is in your power.  You are right though, men think of sex no matter what.  I sure as hell do, despite that I'm almost too old to do anything about it.  Just realize that to us you are sexy.  If you want to ease us off, dress modestly.  It's common sense.  If you want to dress super sexy, do it with a man at your side or with your loyal man servants who will guard you, or with your girlfriends.  Actually, a group of girls being sexy together make an amazing defense against overly assertive guys.  Teamwork.  Guys won't usually hit so hard on a woman who's too tight with other girls.

 

 

The way you're saying this makes it sound like a guy can't help but rape a woman if she turns him on. That kind of attitude/behaviour is simply irresponsible.

 

By the time we mature into adults we should have developed enough self-control of our bodies and emotions to evaluate our words and actions.

 

It helps if we can also control our thoughts and feelings, but if you can't do that you can control your words and actions. Those who don't usually end up in jail sooner rather than later.

 

that's not what he's saying, he's simply stating the obvious; that if you don't like or want men to ogle you or come on to you, don't dress slutty. Pretty simple, really. Obviously, though, women are free to dress however they like and some women enjoy the male attention and that's great. If men cannot control themselves that is their problem. 

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The whole "modesty"  thing keeping men in line is bullshit.  Go to the middle east and you will see men leering at a woman if they catch a glimpse of her wrist or ankle.  Men lusting after women is human nature.   EVERY hetero man objectifies women at some point.  The gentlemen just do it discreetly within the confines of their own mind.   It doesn't matter how extreme the standard of modesty is...in fact, the worst behaved men I have ever seen are in cultures where women are covered up, the human body is taboo, and sex if vilified.

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My meaning was that if a woman in the middle east doesn't care to be glared at, she might try covering her ankles and wrists.  It's common sense.  We could point some fingers at those who make up fetish rules in the first place, let's not forget those people.  They're the ones at fault if anyone is; and who are they?  They might be closer than you think.

Your arguments are valid, but there's practical wisdom in what I'm talking about.  It's not absolute, or black and white.  It's not this way only or that way only.  It's not about fault.  Of course people need to be responsible for their actions.  I'm not talking about that.  I don't make the rules about ankles or wrists or navals or cleavage or any bizarre fetish bit any culture has.  I do have to respect them though.  They affect us all.  As it is, I just try to see as much skin as I can and enjoy what views I'm offered. 

 

I had to face and resolve this specific issue within myself in the early 20's and I did that.  I found balances between how I present myself and what affects that has on others, balances that work for me and for the society I live in.  It's compromise.  I have Japanese influences which in American culture can appear effeminate for men, for example long hair and stylized tails.  I didn't give them up, I just try to emphasize the Japanese aspects and lessen the cross-dress aspects.  I deal with what may come of it, which isn't too much.  

 

I think it's very interesting how people are polarized over this.  

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Yeah, I saw a doozy of a video the other day where a pastor was ranting and raving about women causing men to stumble because of the way they were dressed. Among other things, he encouraged women to ask their fathers if what she was wearing was appropriate. Misogynistic bullshit. 

 

I mean, it's bad enough hearing that bullshit as a man... we're naturally inclined to look at women that way, and obsessing over it just makes it worse. The guilt I felt as a teenager for "lusting" was unbearable. But I can't imagine being a woman in that culture, and feeling guilt for just existing. What a mind fuck. 

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The whole "modesty"  thing keeping men in line is bullshit.  Go to the middle east and you will see men leering at a woman if they catch a glimpse of her wrist or ankle.  Men lusting after women is human nature.   EVERY hetero man objectifies women at some point.  The gentlemen just do it discreetly within the confines of their own mind.   It doesn't matter how extreme the standard of modesty is...in fact, the worst behaved men I have ever seen are in cultures where women are covered up, the human body is taboo, and sex if vilified.

 

Surely you can lust after someone without objectifiying them?

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Guest Babylonian Dream

The whole "modesty"  thing keeping men in line is bullshit.  Go to the middle east and you will see men leering at a woman if they catch a glimpse of her wrist or ankle.  Men lusting after women is human nature.   EVERY hetero man objectifies women at some point.  The gentlemen just do it discreetly within the confines of their own mind.   It doesn't matter how extreme the standard of modesty is...in fact, the worst behaved men I have ever seen are in cultures where women are covered up, the human body is taboo, and sex if vilified.

 

 

 

The whole "modesty"  thing keeping men in line is bullshit.  Go to the middle east and you will see men leering at a woman if they catch a glimpse of her wrist or ankle.  Men lusting after women is human nature.   EVERY hetero man objectifies women at some point.  The gentlemen just do it discreetly within the confines of their own mind.   It doesn't matter how extreme the standard of modesty is...in fact, the worst behaved men I have ever seen are in cultures where women are covered up, the human body is taboo, and sex if vilified.

 

Surely you can lust after someone without objectifiying them?

 

I hate the word objectify, its so vague and imprecise. And is used to mean several different things. I can see using it to mean seeing women solely as a sex object, which I agree is wrong, but its such an overused word. It doesn't even apply to half of what its applied to.

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The whole "modesty"  thing keeping men in line is bullshit.  Go to the middle east and you will see men leering at a woman if they catch a glimpse of her wrist or ankle.  Men lusting after women is human nature.   EVERY hetero man objectifies women at some point.  The gentlemen just do it discreetly within the confines of their own mind.   It doesn't matter how extreme the standard of modesty is...in fact, the worst behaved men I have ever seen are in cultures where women are covered up, the human body is taboo, and sex if vilified.

 

Surely you can lust after someone without objectifiying them?

 

 

Eh, I'm not so sure about that. One of the most horrifying things to me, admitting to myself that I prefer women, was that I found myself looking at other women the way I always hated it when men looked at me. But it's not something I can just stop, so I had to figure out what's really going on and what my ethical reaction to this new aspect of reality should be. And here's how it works for me:

 

Some days I'm more in the mood to lust than others. Some clothes trigger lust in me more than others, but from talking to hetero men I've realized that not everyone's lust triggers are the same. If I see a hot stranger walking along, I don't know enough about them to want them as a person; all I know of them is their body. And my body reacts to that. So does some portion of my mind, throwing up images of what I'd like to do with that body.

 

But the mintue one of those people I've been lusting after makes eye contact, or gets close enough to me that we're in conversation range, things... change. It's that shifting gears feeling you get when startled. The lust drops off, and the social part of my brain takes over and treats them like a real human being instead of a lust object. As long as that shift remains in place, and I never act on the lust (not saying that it's wrong to ask someone out - what I mean is that if I want any of my fantasies to be fullfilled with that person, I have to keep my physical distance and use words to ask, and take no for an answer, and just generally realize that I have absolutely no right to have any of my lust desires fulfilled by that other person), then it's ok.

 

I'd say that even among commited, loving couple objectification can happen sometimes, and that's not always a bad thing. I'm sure there's some days where a partner says "I love you so much, I want to express that physically", and other days where it's "I want a physical release, and you're here, so you wanna help?" We are animals, after all. The problem is when you don't override the objectification with all the social stuff about consent and politeness and all that, when you think that your objectification is The Way Things Should Be and the entire purpose and function of some other human being. The lust, the objectification, is a fantasy inside your own head that doesn't reflect reality. Nothing wrong with having an imagination, but there's a serious problem when you can't tell your daydreams from reality.

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Guess what hetro guys like boobs. It's a fact. I bet Jesus liked boobs too.

 

 

It really doesn't matter what women are wearing.

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We will someday evolve past primordial urges and let rational behavior ensue. Appreciation of sexual beauty need not be accompanied by lust, and certainly not acted upon unless invited.

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Eh, I'm not so sure about that. One of the most horrifying things to me, admitting to myself that I prefer women, was that I found myself looking at other women the way I always hated it when men looked at me. But it's not something I can just stop, so I had to figure out what's really going on and what my ethical reaction to this new aspect of reality should be. And here's how it works for me:

What I've found though is that alot of the women who complain about objectification, objectify men as well. Not only that, but they usually complain most when "objectified" by a man they're not attracted to. Worse, at work in the break room, you could tell when most people in the room were women. As soon as you start hearing people talking graphically about sex, you knew, it was women. It's not a bad thing though, I learned alot about what women enjoyed in bed that way. But alot of women would like to pretend that men are more sexual, and evil because of it, because of their own insecurities and unhealthy views of men. IMO, both think about it equally.

 

There are kinds of objectification that are truly bad, don't get me wrong, but by and large, people are actually not degrading people by saying they look good. They're actually saying, "you look good", its called a compliment.

 

Guess what hetro guys like boobs. It's a fact. I bet Jesus liked boobs too.

 

 

It really doesn't matter what women are wearing.

Babies are into boobs too, they objectify them, they see them as food objects.

 

We will someday evolve past primordial urges and let rational behavior ensue. Appreciation of sexual beauty need not be accompanied by lust, and certainly not acted upon unless invited.

That lust and that appreciation of sexual beauty are one in the same. Tell me, are you attracted to men? If so, can you appreciate the sexual beauty of a man? How about an elephant? If the answer is no, then there's your hint as to why.

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