What Is The Gospel?

[RipVanWinkle]

It really is true. I read a whole book on it once. But my memory being such as it is, I don't remember the town it was  held in. But a few hundred years ago the Catholics decided it was an embarrassment after having promoted it for hundreds of years. They also displayed pieces of the cross around the continent enough to build Noah's ark. Creative bunch, weren't they?    bill

[JamesG]

The family that purported the hoax of the Amityville horror has a splinter from the cross of jesus in a crucifix true story.

[barnacleben]

John 3:16: "For God so loved the world...."

 

If god loved the world why did he condemn all humanity to eternal torture before they ( except for Adam and Eve) committed any sin? 

And you think humanity is worthy of not being condemned? Without external restraints, humanity quickly falls into a festival of murder, rape, and exploitation. Even "innocent" children go Lord of the Flies in the absence of external moral restraints.

 

 Why did he create the human race knowing when he created them that he would send the vast majority of them to eternal torture?

I don't know, but I would speculate that God created humanity because he likes people, and not just a little but a whole lot.

 

Why was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil allowed to be in the Garden of Eden? Why was Satan?

Why did god not simply obliterate sin before he created humans? Why does god play childish games with deadly consequences?

While scripture doesn't give completely clear answers, it isn't utterly silent. In Adam's naturally sinless state, there would always be the opportunity to rebel against God. Eve was deceived into believing that in rebellion she would become like God. Adam, the true criminal, was not deceived, but rebelled against God knowing and believing the consequences, in order to please his wife.

 

Ulitmately, however, this isn't bad news, it is good news. Why? Because, even if sinless, we would always be at risk of rebellion against God, and meriting damnation. Now, as men born in rebellion against God, we are hopeless to merit anything other than damnation.

God promised Eve that her seed would crush the shimmering one's head, and He has. Those who are in Christ have a new Adam, an Adam that has fulfilled the law on their behalf. God has adopted his enemies as sons. We are saved in spite of our rebellion. God's grace has made us safe from the wrath we justly deserve in a way that Adam's obedience never could.

 

Has any Xtian ever answered the above questions in a sensible way?

I would contend that Xians have been answering this in a sensible way all along.

[barnacleben]

How do you know you heard the gospel if you are asking what the gospel is?

 

Scripture is clear about what the gospel is. But few American Christians properly teach what scripture says. There is a Radio show called The White Horse Inn, where the producer goes to pastor's conferences and Christian bookseller conventions and asks pastors questions about basic Christian dogma.

 

The vast majority of pastors fail to answer even basic questions about Jesus and salvation correctly. Sometimes atheists are much better at clearly articulating the basics of what Christianity teaches.

 

The reason I ask is to discover where you ex-Christians fall in the spectrum of ignorance. Are most of you, like most of those who identify as Christian, oblivious to essential Christian dogma, or do most of you have a robust understand of Christianity?

[♦ ficino ♦]

Well, duh, I thought I knew, but I guess I was oblivious.

[barnacleben]

If God is everything how could something exist outside himself?

 

Scripture teaches that God is not everything. Pantheism teaches that. Similarly Panentheism teaches that God is bigger than creation, but creation is made of God (ontologically made of God), and that all matter contains the spark of divinity.

 

In contrast, scripture teaches that God is ontologically distinct from his creation. It is a separate entity that God has brought into existence. God is omnipresent throughout creation, but creation is not made of God, and it does not teach that matter contains the divine spark of God's essence.

[barnacleben]

Instead of trying a new derivative of the original poison, why not stop drinking the poison altogether?

 

Wrong analogy. The pure doctrine expressed in God's word is like pure unpolluted spring water. False teaching however is like raw sewage. When you add just a little raw sewage to a glass of pure water, it is no longer good to drink. It is nauseating, and can make you sick.

 

If your problem is polluted water, the answer isn't swearing off water all together and drinking only sewage. Instead you should look for unpolluted water, water that is coming from the source.

[♦ ficino ♦]

 

If God is everything how could something exist outside himself?

 

Scripture teaches that God is not everything. Pantheism teaches that. Similarly Panentheism teaches that God is bigger than creation, but creation is made of God (ontologically made of God), and that all matter contains the spark of divinity.

 

In contrast, scripture teaches that God is ontologically distinct from his creation. It is a separate entity that God has brought into existence. God is omnipresent throughout creation, but creation is not made of God, and it does not teach that matter contains the divine spark of God's essence.

 

Negative.  "Ontologically" is not a word that appears in the Bible.  "Matter" does not appear in the Bible.

[barnacleben]

What evidence do YOU have that invisible fairies don't inhabit the forest? Sheesh.

For one thing, no one sought to kill them because of their "blasphemous" claims. None of them had disciples who followed them to learn their teachings. No one waved palm leaves at them as they rode into Jerusalem on the colt of an ass, heralding them as the King of the world. No Judean King flogged them, and no Roman prefect tried to avoid having them crucified because of their innocence. None one witnessed them risen from the dead. No one travelled the world proclaiming the good news of their resurrection and what it meant for sinners, and no one went to their death refusing to recant they they had seen them risen from the dead.

[Bhim]

 

 

 

 

If God is everything how could something exist outside himself?

Scripture teaches that God is not everything. Pantheism teaches that. Similarly Panentheism teaches that God is bigger than creation, but creation is made of God (ontologically made of God), and that all matter contains the spark of divinity.

 

In contrast, scripture teaches that God is ontologically distinct from his creation. It is a separate entity that God has brought into existence. God is omnipresent throughout creation, but creation is not made of God, and it does not teach that matter contains the divine spark of God's essence.

Negative. "Ontologically" is not a word that appears in the Bible. "Matter" does not appear in the Bible.

Well, to be fair to Ben I think we can give him this one. Whether what he says is an accurate interpretation of the Bible or not is another matter (personally I don't care, since the New Testament teaches a false religion). But I've got no problem analyzing ancient literature with modern philosophy. After all, we do this with other mythology, classic authors, etc. Heck, English professors are known for reading stuff into even contemporary literature which the author may or may not have intended. Ben using words not found in the Bible doesn't, by itself, mean that he's wrong.

[mymistake]

 

What evidence do YOU have that invisible fairies don't inhabit the forest? Sheesh.

For one thing, no one sought to kill them because of their "blasphemous" claims. None of them had disciples who followed them to learn their teachings. No one waved palm leaves at them as they rode into Jerusalem on the colt of an ass, heralding them as the King of the world. No Judean King flogged them, and no Roman prefect tried to avoid having them crucified because of their innocence. None one witnessed them risen from the dead. No one travelled the world proclaiming the good news of their resurrection and what it meant for sinners, and no one went to their death refusing to recant they they had seen them risen from the dead.

 

 

What a coincidence!  None of those things happened to Jesus Christ either . . . except in some fictional stories.

[barnacleben]

Then you believe in Christian Universalism?  Everyone is saved...

No.

 

 ...there is nothing we must do to save ourselves.

Yes.

[florduh]

Without external restraints, humanity quickly falls into a festival of murder, rape, and exploitation.

 

That is demonstrably idiotic.

 

I'm sorry, I composed a detailed rebuttal of this point, but I decided to not bother posting it since facts and rationality carry no weight in certain quarters. Never mind. Carry on.

[Astreja]

Ben, you cannot use the Bible as evidence for its own claims. Until you produce non-Biblical, non-apologist physical evidence that people can come back from the dead, all you're doing is asking us to worship a storybook character.

 

As for that horse manure about "evil" humanity, stuff it up your wazoo. If your imaginary fiend Biblegod sentences even one sentient being to eternal torture, it automatically becomes the most evil being in the universe... And you, a shameless turdslurper for worshipping such a S.O.B.

[barnacleben]

By facts, independent sources, and credibility and a comparing the claim to the reality i am experiencing. Christianity is missing most of it. There might have been a historical Jesus that had his followers but I doubt that he could walk on water and cast out demons.

I can sympathize with your position. It is difficult to trust an account that describes events out of our own experience. At the same time I do this all the time. I do not understand exotic dark matter, and it is utterly out of my experience to measure and detect. However, I know that I will never personally measure and detect everything that there is to measure and detect. And so I trust accounts of credible witnesses who have measured and detected these things.

 

Surely, few can match Thomas' skeptism, who despite the testimony of all his fellow disciples would not believe until he touched the wounds.

 

One thing that lends credibility to the Biblical accounts of the miraculous is their nature and people's response to them. None of the miracles are susceptible to vaudeville type trickery. The responses to them is not they they were fraudulent, but that they were demonically achieved. The people healed were not unverifiable. The blind man and his parents in John9 were even brought before the council, and the man was publicly excommunicated.

 

Furthermore, we should be reluctant (as so many modernists have done) to dismiss the supernatural out of hand. We live in a universe that once was not. Our plenum of existence demands a supernatural and uncreated first cause. Jesus Christ broke into human history claiming to be that uncreated, supernatural first cause.

[florduh]

Ben, you cannot use the Bible as evidence for its own claims.

 

This has been pointed out numerous times, to no avail. This needs to take a more productive turn. Listening, Ben?

[RipVanWinkle]

Humanity as a whole is certainly not worthy of being condemned? That you believe it is is truly frightening. Everybody may at one or more times in his or her life deserve to be sent to bed without his/her supper, but put in in eternal fire forever? You say you don't know why god created humans knowing he would cast a you believe?  WHY DON'T YOU REFUSE TO BELIEVE THIS HORRIBLE DOCTRINE UNTIL GOD ANSWERS THAT QUESTION FOR YOU AND FOR ALL? DO YOU BELIEVE IN THIS GOD ONLY BECAUSE OF HIS PERCEIVED MIGHT/ MIGHT MAKES RIGHT?This is no miner issue. It a major factor in god's great plan. You can't just sweep it under the rug  If their were such a god (god forbid) you better hope he doesn't go back on his word like he did with the Jews. (Don't bother refuting the last sentence, if you can. It really matter for the purposes of my argument, anyway.)

 

WHAT IN GOD'S NAME HAS EVERY HUMAN WHO EVER LIVED DONE THAT MAKES YOU THINK HE/SHE SHOULD BE CONDEMNED TO HELL FOR ETERNITY? FOREVER? DO YOU COMPREHEND THE LENGTH OF THAT SENTENCE?

[RipVanWinkle]

The Lord of the Flies? Well, at least you are consistent. You jump from one fiction to another.

Here you are describing what horrible things humans do if god didn't stop them. Apparently, since you are human you would be doing those horrible things if god didn't prevent it. Right? What external restraints are being imposed now? 

 

If god can restrain these bad things from happening, why doesn't he do the job right and eliminate these things forever.

[directionless]

Barnacleben, I was wondering if you are a gung-ho Christian because you learned the Gospel and it seemed so sensible that you felt it must to be true.  Or did something else happen to convince you?

 

My theory is that people either thrive or wither as Christians because of other things like community, fruits of the Spirit, etc.  That's why I fizzled-out.  If Christianity worked for me, then I could have shrugged my shoulders and assumed the theology didn't make sense because it was beyond my understanding.

[RipVanWinkle]

The Lord of the Flies? Well, at least you are consistent. You jump from one fiction to another.

Here you are describing what horrible things humans do if god didn't stop them. Apparently, since you are human you would be doing those horrible things if god didn't prevent it. Right? What external restraints does god have in place now? 

 

I cannot think of a more destructive world view than seeing all humanity as so evil that they deserve punishment by fire forever. Helen Keller deserved eternal punishment? The millions who have lived in abject poverty, in horrible illness, with  radical disability, with unrelenting pain finally escape this life through a natural death only to be cast  into hell forever by your perfect god. What about the multiple children who have been the victims of terrible child abuse with devastating lifetime consequences? What poor excuse for a man or woman could stand before such a person and tell them they deserve to burn in hell forever? Could you do that? I certainly hope not, even if you packaged it with robotic bullshit which usually accompanies such things. Have the courage to stand up and tell this mythical  god of yours that you will not inflict the horror of the bible on others. Don't be threatened into believing nonsensical things to protect yourself from a mythical hell.  bill

[Ralet]

 

By facts, independent sources, and credibility and a comparing the claim to the reality i am experiencing. Christianity is missing most of it. There might have been a historical Jesus that had his followers but I doubt that he could walk on water and cast out demons.

I can sympathize with your position. It is difficult to trust an account that describes events out of our own experience. At the same time I do this all the time. I do not understand exotic dark matter, and it is utterly out of my experience to measure and detect. However, I know that I will never personally measure and detect everything that there is to measure and detect. And so I trust accounts of credible witnesses who have measured and detected these things.

But if they are right or not doesn't matter. If you believe them has no influence on your life and the decisions that you are making. A person can not verify everything before believing it. We have to have trust the experiences and knowledge of others. if a doctor tells me to take a certain medicine, i will take , because he is truth-worthy and i have no time to research every disease in the world. but if a doctor tells me I am not allowed to drink, smoke, eat meat,... anymore, i would ask other doctors and do some research-because it has an influence on my life even though he is trustworthy and it might make sense. now with the bible we have a claim from untrustworthy(and sometimes unknown) sources that are all already dead. many claims were written down years later and those claims are enormous and do not fit with reality. We do not know if the events took place, we don't know for sure who was there and who wrote it down and if they were truth-worthy people, we don't know if the written texts were manipulated or misinterpreted/mistranslated, we don't know if they understood the message of jesus right. Should I build my whole life on this lousy foundation? in the doctor metaphor it would be like i would stop drinking,smoking,eating meat... because of a found research paper by an author that is, according to the research paper, a doctor and that nobody had ever heard or read of before and that has lived 2000 years ago. I don't know who he is, if he is a real doctor and if his conclusion is right. why should i trust him?

[barnacleben]

What evidence?  If you can't provide any then there is nothing to dismiss!  Show us the evidence.   And save yourself the effort if all you can do is quote Bible verses then stop right now.  Bible verses are not evidence.  The Bible is a set of claims - claims that need evidence before they should be believed.

The Bible is a library of texts, including many historical narratives. Virtually all of recorded human history comes to us through recorded historical narratives. While it is true that people in the Bible, like Jesus make theological claims, the historical narrative itself is evidence on its own, particularly when the details in those narratives is heavily corroborated by external evidence about the culture and time.

Regardless of the theological claims, historians consider the Biblical narratives generally accurate.

 

 

And I can find books about Harry Potter.  Are those books evidence that magic is real?

Unlike a novel, many of the Biblical texts are written as historical narrative in order to record actual events. Not only are the scriptures the most ancient texts ever in widespread use, they are the only ancient religious texts which record historical detail as history, including references to real world places, times, people and events.

 

Many of these details been corroborated independently. For example, genetic research of Y-chromosomes from men with the last name Kohain/Cohen/Coen/Kohen (Priest) from around the world have identified a single a common male ancestor approximately 4200 to 3200 years ago, putting Aaron, the originator of the Israelite within the window of the exodus. It also demonstrates an unbroken family line moving out for thousands of years and shows that at least some aspects of the scriptural accounts for the priesthoods origin and ongoing practice was accurately described.

 

To assume that every recorded document is Harry Potter style fiction until absolutely proven otherwise is silly, unserious, and not the way scholars approach human history and historical narrative.

[JamesG]

 

What evidence do YOU have that invisible fairies don't inhabit the forest? Sheesh.

For one thing, no one sought to kill them because of their "blasphemous" claims. None of them had disciples who followed them to learn their teachings. No one waved palm leaves at them as they rode into Jerusalem on the colt of an ass, heralding them as the King of the world. No Judean King flogged them, and no Roman prefect tried to avoid having them crucified because of their innocence. None one witnessed them risen from the dead. No one travelled the world proclaiming the good news of their resurrection and what it meant for sinners, and no one went to their death refusing to recant they they had seen them risen from the dead.

 

Wow geez which religion is this. I know Christianity CLAIMS this happened. But it never did happen, did it? Also none of this is a requirement or fairies to exist as they wouldn't care if any of the above claims were to happen. You sir need to get touched by the noodely appendage.

[JamesG]

"And you think humanity is worthy of not being condemned? Without external restraints, humanity quickly falls into a festival of murder, rape, and exploitation. Even "innocent" children go Lord of the Flies in the absence of external moral restraints."

 

what evidence do you have for this I am now going to officially call bullshit.

 

Here is evidence to the contrary the Piraha people have never had a god of any kind they have no religion and they have largely been outside of external influence for thousands of years until recently. The exhibit highly altruistic behaviors they are extremely loving and may very well be one of the happiest cultures in existence today.

http://ffrf.org/publications/freethought-today/item/13492-the-pirahae-people-who-define-happiness-without-god

 

I am still waiting on your response to Genesis 6:2 vs John 3:16 neither can both be right and the claims in Genesis 6:2 invalidate the claims of John 3:16 so please answer the question

[Ravenstar]

"Regardless of the theological claims, historians consider the Biblical narratives generally accurate."

 

NO THEY DON'T

 

good grief.. who started this bullshit? I hear it from every christian who comes here, and it just isn't true. REAL historians find the bible interesting, but not as an accurate gauge of real history. There are SOME events that MIGHT have happened as portrayed in the bible, but mostly it's a pile of hogwash.. with very little historical, or archaeological evidence (damn - there's that word again.. E V I D E N C E).

 

It's a collection of myth, poetry, proverbs, Hebrew ritual law and political propaganda (and some internal questionable geneaology and 'history') from a minor people's (read: backwards goat herding nomads - you know, the hicks of their time) who used it to stake claims in the middle east while surrounded and justify their bloodthirstiness and genocidal actions, and whom were conquered quite a few times by MAJOR civilizations around them. They borrowed a whole lot of their theology from those civilizations, Egypt, Mesopotamia, Canaan, etc...

 

By the time we get to the NT it is pretty much Hellenized, and has taken on so much Greek culture it is almost unrecognizable as Hebrew theology. Add in the 1700 years of Catholic, then Protestant 'interpretation' and what you have is..

 

 

 

wait for it...

 

 

 

mythology!

 

 

and THAT is how real historians view the bible, and the Egyptian Book of the Dead, and the Koran, and the Upanishads, and the Edda's.. etc.. ad infinitum.

 

They may look at some of the info as a starting point for research, but that's it.

 

 

Damn guys, I missed a live one..