What Do I Believe?

[ExCBooster]

 

But we can see the justice of the creation, because it is destroying us, all of us, without exception. There is God's hand laying waste to us, ravaging us who bear his image with pain, decrepitude, and disease. We try to maximize our pleasure with exercise regimens and diets, pumping ourselves with vitamins and medicine, pretending that the inevitable isn't happening, pretending that if our life is full of pleasures then we'll be pleased to relinquish it in the end. But in truth, the end that comes in the whimpering crush of age is no less tragic than the latest starlet cut off in his prime. We are no more eager to give it up, even as family surrounds us and reassures themselves by reminding us of our good fortune, as if checking off ticks on a bucket list made dying happy.

 

As Jean Cocteau put it in Opium: Diary of a cure, "Everything one does in life, even love, occurs in an express train hurtling toward death." Could you do better than him? To bide your time in a fog of pleasures until the end comes.

 

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made.(Rom1)

 

And by our very nature, we hate this God of wrath, this God who is justly destroying us, this God who claims the lives of our parents, children, husbands, wives, and ourselves. We refuse to believe we deserve it. We ridicule his claims of mercy, abounding love, and slow anger, even as he is patient with us.

 

(Holy crap... barnacleben took the bait, hook, line, and sinker. Let's tally this up. He was obviously bothered enough about it to be unable to address it for a few days. Totally and hilariously missed the point about the Texas Sharpshooter, check. He had exactly two options about whether God was evil, either re-examine his beliefs (har har, not gonna happen) or stick to it anyway, and open himself up to this...)

 

Well, that's it for me. If anyone insists on the reality and human approachability (through worship) of any deity while knowing what nature can produce - my point is that this is not a thing one can worship - worship is a human act, a pleading for compassion.  If anyone can justify things like Numbers 31, and the worst humanity can offer each other, I don't care what deity commands it, they're a terrible person, a complete heartless monster. Forget about a terrible human being, they'd be a terrible honey bee. I've done my job here, and I'll let the inhumanity of his own beliefs speak for itself.

 

Bravo, barnacleben, you've shot yourself - and your message - in the ass. There's nothing more we can do to discredit you that you haven't already, for yourself.

[TrueFreedom]

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

I'm surprised this train wreck of a thread is still going. What kind of magic is this????

[florduh]

I'm surprised this train wreck of a thread is still going. What kind of magic is this????

 

 

I would have booted this troll on his first day, but some people are even now still interested in engaging him. Just waiting for everyone to tire of him.

[directionless]

I suspect barnacleben is plagiarizing the text of his posts from somewhere. They seem to be a mixture of stupid trollishness (such as references to Jeffrey Dahmer) and thoughtful arguments to a missing conversation. I can't prove that though.

[par4dcourse]

I'll quote the Rock Bible

 

Zep 4:20 "there's a lady who's sure all that glitters is gold,

And she's buying a stairway to heaven."

 

Hah! Refute that, Ben!

[HymenaeusAlexander]

 

I'm surprised this train wreck of a thread is still going. What kind of magic is this????

 

 

I would have booted this troll on his first day, but some people are even now still interested in engaging him. Just waiting for everyone to tire of him.

 

 

I, for one, quite enjoy the stark and often inspired poetic imagery he employs in many of his posts. Consider the vividness of entries like this one:

 

This was no bride of Christ, but a decrepit, diseased, whoring witch on her 200th plastic surgery. She wasn't even as noble as a real whore. A real whore takes money, but she wasn't taking money, no. Instead she's like a desperate wizened nymphomaniac adulterous[sic], paying all her money on gigolos, and not clean ones either, but unwashed AIDS-ridden park junkies, whose members oozed from open sores.

 

I'll be in my bunk.

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

 

I'm surprised this train wreck of a thread is still going. What kind of magic is this????

 

 

I would have booted this troll on his first day, but some people are even now still interested in engaging him. Just waiting for everyone to tire of him.

 

 

What I meant is why anyone is still interested in engaging him. I highly doubt we can even take him seriously, though sometimes the things he posts can be amusing. For example:

 

 

I, for one, quite enjoy the stark and often inspired poetic imagery he employs in many of his posts. Consider the vividness of entries like this one:

 

This was no bride of Christ, but a decrepit, diseased, whoring witch on her 200th plastic surgery. She wasn't even as noble as a real whore. A real whore takes money, but she wasn't taking money, no. Instead she's like a desperate wizened nymphomaniac adulterous[sic], paying all her money on gigolos, and not clean ones either, but unwashed AIDS-ridden park junkies, whose members oozed from open sores.

 

I'll be in my bunk.

 

 

I do agree HA.

[barnacleben]

I believe Ben is a bored little troll, possibly still in high school.

In my experience, "troll" is usually used to describe insincere people who write short post to goad others others into getting angry and wasting their time with long responses. While you don't have to take my word for it, I am not bored, but in fact very busy, which is why I'm only to page 3 so far in this thread. I am not in high school, I completed graduate school 10 years ago. I have 4 children. I am actually sincere in my responses, and I'm not trying to goad anyone or inflame their passions.

[florduh]

I BELIEVE, the proof is in the pudding.

 

Damn, I hate that trite phrase.

[♦ ficino ♦]

 

I believe Ben is a bored little troll, possibly still in high school.

In my experience, "troll" is usually used to describe insincere people who write short post to goad others others into getting angry and wasting their time with long responses. While you don't have to take my word for it, I am not bored, but in fact very busy, which is why I'm only to page 3 so far in this thread. I am not in high school, I completed graduate school 10 years ago. I have 4 children. I am actually sincere in my responses, and I'm not trying to goad anyone or inflame their passions.

 

Cool. Waiting for answers to my and Bhim's questions, for starters... 

[midniterider]

and then Ravenstar’s observation that barnacleben is so vain he probably thinks this universe is about him.

 

 

 

 

"Don't you, don't you, don't youuuuuuuu." Go Carly Simon.

[barnacleben]

As always, Ben could call upon his god to offer up an irrefutable sign, and his god would answer his prayers (or not, depending on his god's will).  Thus far, I have yet to see such sign, unless, of course, it is his god's will.  In which case, it wouldn't matter anywhere, and the circle starts again.

If Jesus appeared to me, and standing before me commissioned me to proclaim his words as his mouthpiece then I would probably do just that. But since He hasn't, I will stick with the commission He has given: proclaim repentance and forgiveness of sins in his name to all nations.

 

Seriously, why does anyone who believes in a supernatural being try to argue logically?  Just have your god(s) do something that shows their supernatural ability!! 

Technically, all people that developed logic as a discipline believed in the supernatural. Also, technically, all atheists believe in the supernatural. 13.7 Billion years ago, matter energy space and time came into existence. Atheists appeal to a time-independent eternal first cause of a "naturalistic character", but this is still a metaphysical appeal to the supernatural.

That which is beyond the natural must exist, and everyone knows it. The fact that they know it does not render them incapable of logical reasoning.

 

In fact, it is naturalism that makes rationality suspect. According to naturalists, human thought and reason is corrupted with false irrational ideas in order to give humans a survival advantage. This reasoning destroys the foundations of reason itself. What reason do you have to believe that your beliefs are anything more than a complex set of chemical reactions working in patterns that maximize the health and number of your offspring?

[Guest end3]

IMHO, when you get entrenched in a belief, then you are just that.   If I believe the Bible is the truth regarding all matters, then that would be my proof in my reality.  I don't think some are crediting Ben with as much as you should be.  Again, if you are in the trench past your head, then looking out you see nothing but more trench.....more Bible in this case.

 

Don't make me come here again.

[florduh]

Thanks, end. Astute observation from the trenches.

[JamesG]

IMHO, when you get entrenched in a belief, then you are just that.   If I believe the Bible is the truth regarding all matters, then that would be my proof in my reality.  I don't think some are crediting Ben with as much as you should be.  Again, if you are in the trench past your head, then looking out you see nothing but more trench.....more Bible in this case.

 

Don't make me come here again.

Damnit end3 stop making sense!!! your making my trench shallower

[HymenaeusAlexander]

Wait. Did I miss out on the Godwin's Law betting pool? Who was closest to post #136?

[midniterider]

 

I believe Ben is a bored little troll, possibly still in high school.

In my experience, "troll" is usually used to describe insincere people who write short post to goad others others into getting angry and wasting their time with long responses. While you don't have to take my word for it, I am not bored, but in fact very busy, which is why I'm only to page 3 so far in this thread. I am not in high school, I completed graduate school 10 years ago. I have 4 children. I am actually sincere in my responses, and I'm not trying to goad anyone or inflame their passions.

 

 

I think the non-believers here get concerned when a Christian cannot fathom the logic of their rebuttals to Christianity. When a Christian continues on with stuff that sounds like it was 'made up' right there on the spot then the non-believer feels the Christian is either an insincere troll or seriously deluded. The logical thinking non-believer has a hard time accepting that a Christian could be so deluded as to actually believe the stuff that he just made up or just Googled, cut and pasted without really considering if it made any sense or not. So the other option is insincere troll.

 

What the non-believer sometimes forgets is that he/she once was also as immersed in the delusion of Christianity as you are now and I know I, as a Christian have 'made up' stuff to protect my own pride of belief and religious emotional structure. The Christian must protect the idea of the reality of the doctrine of Christianity. If the Christian allows doubt or reason to enter into his mind then he looks like a fool to himself.

 

I applaud those who have had the courage of spirit to doubt Christianity and investigate for themselves and break out of the Christian mental robot factory and live their own lives for themselves.

[mymistake]

A wild troll appears:

 

 

 

In my experience, "troll" is usually used to describe insincere people who write short post to goad others others into getting angry and wasting their time with long responses. While you don't have to take my word for it, I am not bored, but in fact very busy, which is why I'm only to page 3 so far in this thread. I am not in high school, I completed graduate school 10 years ago. I have 4 children. I am actually sincere in my responses, and I'm not trying to goad anyone or inflame their passions.

 

 

Troll uses Misdirection.  It is not effective.

 

 

 

Look Troll, you do use short posts to goad others into getting angry and wasting their time with long responses.  I don't care if you are sincere in your trolling or not.  That is really a moot point.  You randomly quote irrelevant Bible verses when you know that nobody here makes the Bible into any kind of authority.  You ignore it when your claims are refuted and carry on repeating the same claims anyway.  You admit that you don't have evidence but you also act like you can support the case for your fantasy using evidence.  Christians who comes here looking for sincere conversation do not act the way you do.

[mymistake]

IMHO, when you get entrenched in a belief, then you are just that.   If I believe the Bible is the truth regarding all matters, then that would be my proof in my reality.  I don't think some are crediting Ben with as much as you should be.  Again, if you are in the trench past your head, then looking out you see nothing but more trench.....more Bible in this case.

 

That sums up the concept of "self-delusion".  When people start thinking the Bible is reality then they start to reject information that conflicts with the delusion.  They either have to ignore the conflicting information (which makes the head hurt) or else they must construct elaborate paranoid conspiracy theories where the whole world is an attack by Satan to try to trick them.

[midniterider]

A wild troll appears:

 

 

 

In my experience, "troll" is usually used to describe insincere people who write short post to goad others others into getting angry and wasting their time with long responses. While you don't have to take my word for it, I am not bored, but in fact very busy, which is why I'm only to page 3 so far in this thread. I am not in high school, I completed graduate school 10 years ago. I have 4 children. I am actually sincere in my responses, and I'm not trying to goad anyone or inflame their passions.

 

 

Troll uses Misdirection.  It is not effective.

 

 

 

Look Troll, you do use short posts to goad others into getting angry and wasting their time with long responses.  I don't care if you are sincere in your trolling or not.  That is really a moot point.  You randomly quote irrelevant Bible verses when you know that nobody here makes the Bible into any kind of authority.  You ignore it when your claims are refuted and carry on repeating the same claims anyway.  You admit that you don't have evidence but you also act like you can support the case for your fantasy using evidence.  Christians who comes here looking for sincere conversation do not act the way you do.

 

Nobody can 'make' you waste your time with long responses. :-) That is wholly up to the responder.

 

It is hard to distinguish between a troll and a real believer since their activities are pretty much identical but no matter, all of the Ex-C's here have provided a wonderful service refuting scripture so, in case he is a real believer he will go away with some food for thought. Maybe your arguments will start to gnaw at him and his Christianity will be begin to erode.

[Bhim]

Ben, as Ficino alluded, I am still interested in your comments on this post:

 

http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/57632-what-is-the-gospel/page-10#entry878215

 

Specifically, I would like to know why you don't apply the same standard to other miraculous works as you do to those of Jesus. I understand you're busy and will take time to produce a response. But please don't utterly ignore my observations and let them get buried by other conversations.

[Bhim]

I also want to point out that in the very post I've referred Ben to at least four times now, I predicted that my point might be ignored by him. It's an uncomfortable truth that other more recent individuals have done greater miracles than Jesus, which are more easily verified, and that these people teach contrary to the doctrines of Jesus. This invalidates the claim that Jesus should be believed on the basis of his miracles.

[mymistake]

 

 

It is hard to distinguish between a troll and a real believer since their activities are pretty much identical but no matter, all of the Ex-C's here have provided a wonderful service refuting scripture so, in case he is a real believer he will go away with some food for thought. 

 

 

 

As an aside, I've always favored a result-based definition of trolling over an intent-based definition.  It's difficult to deduce intent from mere words on the screen but results are usually clear.

[barnacleben]

As always, Ben could call upon his god to offer up an irrefutable sign, and his god would answer his prayers (or not, depending on his god's will).  Thus far, I have yet to see such sign, unless, of course, it is his god's will.  In which case, it wouldn't matter anywhere, and the circle starts again.

If Jesus appeared to me, and standing before me commissioned me to proclaim his words as his mouthpiece then I would probably do just that. But since He hasn't, I will stick with the commission He has given: proclaim repentance and forgiveness of sins in his name to all nations.

 

Seriously, why does anyone who believes in a supernatural being try to argue logically?  Just have your god(s) do something that shows their supernatural ability!! 

Technically, all people that developed logic as a discipline believed in the supernatural. Also, technically, all atheists believe in the supernatural. 13.7 Billion years ago, matter energy space and time came into existence. Atheists appeal to a time-independent eternal first cause of a "naturalistic character", but this is still a metaphysical appeal to the supernatural.

That which is beyond the natural must exist, and everyone knows it. The fact that they know it does not render them incapable of logical reasoning.

 

In fact, it is naturalism that makes rationality suspect. According to naturalists, human thought and reason is corrupted with false irrational ideas in order to give humans a survival advantage. This reasoning destroys the foundations of reason itself. What reason do you have to believe that your beliefs are anything more than a complex set of chemical reactions working in patterns that maximize the health and number of your offspring?