Do you think abortion is wrong?

[bluewizard]

In my area you only hear one side of the story and that's the pro-life side. I believe I'm pro-choice because if I got a girl pregnant I'd definitely want her to have an abortion and its not murder like some pro-lifers say. What do you think of this issue as an ex-christian?

[Jose]

I don't think religion or lack thereof has anything to do with it.

 

As a man, it's not my decision. I would support my girlfriend/ wife's decision no matter what she chose.

 

In fact, I did support my girlfriend when she chose to have an abortion even though I was a believer at the time.

 

That's why I was excommunicated from the Catholic Church.

[Checkmate]

TOUCHY SUBJECT ALERT!!!!! AVOID LIKE THE PLAGUE!!!!!

 

 

I'm out of here!

[Jose]

It's not all that bad, Grinchy.

 

I mean, I'm a guy. What can I say about it?

 

"If I were a girl, I'd want to be able to choose for myself"?

 

That's about it.

[Taphophilia]

Yes, a touchy subject. I'll give my opinion which is all I can do, and I will not try to convince anyone of anything.

I believe abortion should be legal and available. Legal isn't the same thing as available, and in effect the pro-life are winning that way in that there are not enough abortion providers.

 

I believe an abortion should be done as early as possible. I don't believe that a woman should have the right to abort at ANY time during her pregnancy, even if it is her body. There is a point where the fetus becomes viable and abortion should not be a choice after viability except in extreme and rare cases.

 

I believe in choice. Every child should be brought into this world a wanted child and not punished for the circumstances of conception. I believe that the pro-life side creates child abuse. They brain wash followers into believing they are committing murder if they have an abortion and force even children to have children. They force women who are not ready for the emotional tolls and burdens of raising children to do so. They are more concerned about the babies that are being aborted. They fail to do anything about the children who are in dire circumstances. As long as the kid was not aborted, what is the problem?

 

They brand those who have had abortions as murderers, even if it's a fourteen year old girl. They force women to be guilty of the crime of murdering their own children. They play psycological mindgames forcing guilt where no guilt should be. I believe pro-life is a detriment to humanity and causes more harm than it does good.

 

Pro-choice means choice. It means that I or my daughters have the right to make our own choices and choose what is best for our lives.

 

Taph

[greasemonkey]

Yeppers, this is one touchy subject...

 

I don't think ANYONE pro-choice really believes abortion is "right" or "good;" merely that it's a womans body and she should have the right to choose. There are consequences either way. George Carlin spoke in a routine once that a woman merely having her period is an aborted "potential" for a kid, so when will they try to outlaw that?! Geez, the "day-after" pills only do what the body often does naturally, so I don't really understand the big contoversy there, either...

 

I know this is going to sound horrible & gross, but I can provide references if anyone wants them (Richard Shenkman has some good books about this kind of historical stuff that gets largely ignored). During the middle and later ages in England, life wasn't legally thought to begin until the baby COMPLETELY left the womans body, and sometimes the throat of the baby was cut before the body was all the way out (and that wasn't considered infantcide); this law was repealed in (get this!) 1929!!! Napoleon was the first to put a revolving drop off at some hospitals with a bell to ring (to provide anonimity), and the number of babies being dropped off leapt to something like 32,000 a year! If people think we have a "morality problem" now, then they need to start reading history more...

 

It's not so much about right and wrong as it is about having the freedom to make the choice.

 

my $.02

[non conformist]

Wow! Good one...

 

Christian morals are incredible....they completely ignore what happens to unwanted children; only a small percentage of them actually help those kids. The vast majority just condemn those women who, for whatever reason, make the decision to abort. They never stop to consider that most of the time it's an extremely difficult thing to come to, and what a tremendous toll it takes soon afterwards. They're so hung up on the "be fruitful and multiply" bullshit that they never think about the lives these women are leading and what circumstances brought them to [this] point.

 

Although I'm on the Pro-Choice side of the issue, I agree with Taph that there should be restrictions to the procedure after the first trimester. I also have a HUGE problem with girls/women who use abortion as their form of birth control. Not being judgemental, but there are many ways to prevent pregnancy....no need to put oneself through physical and emotional turmoil unnecessarily.

[Mythra]

Well, let's see. Since I don't believe that people have souls, I sure don't believe that a zygote has one.

 

A woman should not be forced to do something with her body that she doesn't want to do - based on someone else's concept of reality.

 

I do think that, if there's going to be an abortion - it should happen earlier rather than later.

 

ps: I don't think wearing a condom is a sin, either.

[LloydDobler]

I don't believe a fertilized egg dividing into two cells is a human being.

 

I do believe a fully developed fetus one day away from birth is a human being, and therefore has rights of its own, to be protected.

 

Somewhere in between it goes from being 'not human' to 'a human individual'. I personally believe this happens at the first sign of brain activity, somewhere around 20 weeks. And I believe that after this point the fetus becomes an individual human with its own rights. A vast majority of aboritons take place in this first trimester anyway, and most of the laws about abortion lean on this same logic already.

 

This is just my opinion and means nothing in terms of the real debate. I actually have resolved the abortion issue for myself by getting a vasectomy. I will never have to choose or participate in the choice.

 

I believe the real abortion debate needs to take place on the issue of unwanted pregnancy. With modern birth control and knowledge there is absolutely no reason for most unwanted pregnancies to occur. If you don't want to get pregnant, use birth control. Period. If people would welcome the education and actually use it, the abortion issue would almost completely disappear. (almost)

[Taphophilia]

but the problem is that pro-life doesn't want teens to know about birth control either. They want all unmarried people to have ONE option, abstinance. Pro-life wants even a blastocyte to be protected as life with the ban of the morning after pill which would actually cut down the need for abortion.

 

The pro-choice side at least favors education and information about birth control to begin with, and recognises abstinance is the only 100 percent means, but also there are other options though not 100 percent are high in terms of preventing pregnancy and safe.

 

Taph

 

oh, btw...I used to be rabidly pro-life when I was a Christian.

[BigToe]

I think abortion should be legal and available. I believe that if for no other reason it should be legal to help maintain health standards and ensure that the methods used are safe and sanitary to help avoid any other issues that may come up if the procedure is kinda sketchy. I think women will still get abortions if it is illegal, so we might as well moniter how they get them to ensure their health. I also believe that if a woman is raped she shouldn't have to carry the baby to term, that would be cruel.

 

While I don't think it should be used as a form of birth control, sometimes things happen. I mean my mom got pregnant with me while using an IUD and a condom with spermicide. So it isn't like people don't get pregnant without taking the precautions against it.

[Dianka]

15 year old girl gets knocked up by her b/f one night while they were both rolling on X. She confides in a school administrator that she wants an abortion. The administrator calls her mother, a recovering heroin addict and - get this - mom is giddy that she is going to be a grandmother. The girl persists that she wants the abortion and mom comes with for the procedure. At Planned Parenthood, she is shown the ultrasound. The counsuler tells her the baby is perfectly healthy, says it's a girl, and repeatedly asks her if she is sure that she wants to do this. Mom starts crying and says that she is disappointed that she wants to terminate the pregnancy. The girl decides that she wants to keep the baby.

 

5 months in, she decides that she does not want the child, but it's too late to abort in her opinion. She starts drinking and fuckin different boys. Meanwhile, the guy that donated the sperm turns 18, and legally, he can be charged with statutory rape. A few months later he is in jail. She gives birth, and the baby is in the care of her older sister and brother in law. She did not want to give the baby up for adoption because she whants to keep an eye on it.

 

Was this at all right?

 

I know quite a few people who have had abortions - all nice girls (except the 15 year old, she is a complete fuck up). Most of them had good reasons for going trough it, and if they did carry the babies to term, the children would suffer for a variety of reason: unstable relationships among their parents, no time with parents because they both would have to work like crazy to take care of the kid, or they would have to live with their mother being kicked out of the house every time daddy came home from a long night out with the boys (he was also cheating on her).

 

Yes, I even have a friend who has abortions as a form of birth control. I used to think that she was disgusting, but really, I would not wish ANYONE to be the child of those two. They would just fuck them up. I wish she would stop, but it's pretty much up to her. Really, I don't care. She takes care of her problems at the most, a month after conception. I can't wag my finger at her because it just wouldn't help.

[Open_Minded]

I don't believe a fertilized egg dividing into two cells is a human being.

 

I do believe a fully developed fetus one day away from birth is a human being, and therefore has rights of its own, to be protected.

 

Somewhere in between it goes from being 'not human' to 'a human individual'. I personally believe this happens at the first sign of brain activity, somewhere around 20 weeks. And I believe that after this point the fetus becomes an individual human with its own rights. A vast majority of aboritons take place in this first trimester anyway, and most of the laws about abortion lean on this same logic already.

 

This is just my opinion and means nothing in terms of the real debate.

 

Actually you make some good points, I've always wondered why we can't treat this discussion the same as we treat end of life discussions. These aren't easy issues. Science puts humanity in the position of having to make decisions we've never had to make anymore.

 

I do know of one situation where a couple had to have an abortion beyond the first trimester because of a car accident. It was horrible - in a very traumatic way the husband had to make the decision. The doctors told him the baby wouldn't survive anyway, and that if they didn't terminate the pregnancy his wife would bleed to death. Oh... I wouldn't want to make that decision. But in the end - the decision really should be left with the doctor and family.

 

I believe the real abortion debate needs to take place on the issue of unwanted pregnancy. With modern birth control and knowledge there is absolutely no reason for most unwanted pregnancies to occur. If you don't want to get pregnant, use birth control. Period. If people would welcome the education and actually use it, the abortion issue would almost completely disappear. (almost)

 

I'd agree with you 100% except at this point in time the Christian right is working to make birth control unavailable as well. In our state, the courts are fighting over whether pharmists can refuse to carry birth control pills or the morning after pill. There are even some legislatures who want to make it illegal for our state campuses to despense any form of birth control, even the condom. They haven't tried to get anything on the books yet, but they are making a lot of noise about it. It's just a matter of time before they try to push something through the legislature. :angry:

[loves_learning]

Boy...I love controversey! Polite controversey, of course...bravo to all who have posted for stating opinions in a civil and open manner. Always makes me happy.

 

Anyway, I don't think anyone really loves the idea of abortion, or having to go through one. More than anything, its an invasive procedure, and no one enjoys that. Pretty much everyone has already said that...and I think that most would.

 

But, I agree with Taph, abortion isn't made available, nor is reliable birth control. I've read that a new male birth control pill is supposed to be coming out in the next 5 years or so, and the success rate is much higher than the female pills. It is unfortunate that drug manufacturers haven't taken the time to really evaluate how the pills and other hormonal contraceptives work, plus the side effects are sometimes intolerable. Many women don't like to take them because they gain weight, become moody, have sore body parts...yes, internal as well as external...and all sorts of other things. Even when women DO take the pill regularly, sometimes it just doesn't work. One of my best friends waited until marriage to have sex, she was taking the pill faithfully, and her husband used condoms 99% of the time as well. She got pregnant less than 6 months after she got married...wasn't too happy about it either. She had the child and everyone is doing well, but they were lucky. They had a lot of financial support from his parents (he was still in law school and she was finishing her master's degree) and were lucky enough to find a campus job that basically gave them free housing. But...it put a major stress on their new marriage, and to be honest I don't know if I would want to subject myself to that.

 

Also, I don't think it will be possible to significantly lower the number of abortions without taking a look at society. It drives me crazy that conservatives like to waive the pro-life flag...while turning away from the women who feel that they cannot financially support their children if they should choose to have them. Furthermore, there is still a seriously negative stigma associated with being single and pregnant...much less actually having the child. Some people just don't want to deal with it...and while men can impregnate hundreds of women without a single person knowing unless he tells them....its a little more obvious for a woman.

[Lycorth]

Normally, I am pro-life for the most part. I do not see abortion as being acceptable unless in the case of the mother's health being threatened, or if the child is found to be carrying a severe defect or illness that would make life for the poor child much more difficult than is reasonable. As far as across-the-board reasons go, those are the two big ones.

 

I'm actually somewhat iffy about cases of rape - on one hand, I can see how the woman sure as hell didn't want to be raped and impregnated and shouldn't be forced into carrying another man's child, but on the other hand can see how it isn't the child's fault the woman got raped in the first place. That one isn't easily handled by an umbrealla yea or nay vote, I think.

 

I don't agree with the argument that it's the woman's body because it isn't. It is clear that a baby is a different biological organism than the mother, and even though the baby grows inside of the woman, it is its own life-form. Saying it's "my body and I have a right to choose" doesn't hold water - it's whether or not an abortion is justifiable in that particular circumstance. I may have rights over my own body also but I can't go do what I want with it, like use it to kill someone or steal things, for example. In terms of how we ought to treat our fellow human beings in regards to simple respect and fairness, we don't have the right to do as we wish. Reason alone tells us that.

 

The pro-life crowd would be immensely "blessed" if they simply realized that birth control isn't the same as abortion. It represents a viable and useful means of controlling pregnancies and thereby reducing the number of abortions for the sake of convenience that people get. How many abortions happen just because the child wasn't wanted at that time, for whatever reason? Now, if they weren't prevented by law or religious guilt from obtaining and properly using proven birth control methods, abortions for convenience would virtually vanish. Abstinence is the only 100% effective method, but humans will have sex no matter what anyone says, and that's not a bad thing at all. Simply embracing the medical advancements human beings have made and encouraging responsible use of birth control will go further in eliminating most abortions than thumping those Bibles and twisting the knife of guilt.

 

Ultimately, abortion should be judged on a case-by-case basis, in terms of how we view it. Every person is different, and what is acceptable for one may not be so for another. We shouldn't be pro-life without exception nor pro-choice without exception; we have to be flexible and realize that everything does not fall neatly into place all the time.

[BigToe]

In terms of the rape thing, I'm going to talk about it as someone who was raped. I had a horribly rough time the first year. I wasn't eating properly or sleeping. It would have been terribly cruel to try and carry a baby to term if I had gotten pregnant as a result. It would have been incredibly unhealthy. I would have seen it as a daily reminder of what happened, one I couldn't ignore or make go away for a few minutes. It would have always been there and as time went on, at least for 9 months, it would have gotten bigger. It would have been even more in my face. I would have had people looking at me as the single pregnant girl who fucked up, or people looking at me as the girl who couldn't control herself then blamed the guy (unfortunately many people have those attitudes). I would have thought constantly about this beast of a guy's sperm growing inside me and getting bigger and bigger. Then I would have wondered for the rest of my life if that sperm grew up to be like its father.

 

So while it wasn't any sperm or egg's fault that someone is raped, it certainly isn't theirs and they shouldn't be asked to carry the result of an unwanted action against them if they don't choose to. I also think if someone is raped and is going to get abortion, chances are they'll do it as soon as possible. I think for many women it could be the difference between being able to go on and continue their healing process or possibly not being able to even start healing until 9 months after the fact. By then the woman may be so damaged that who knows how much more difficult her learning process would be.

 

 

On a somewhat lighter note... A friend of mine wants to be nominated to a new post in the government the Minister of Reproduction. She claims her first order of business would be to make it mandatory that anyone who becomes pregnant under the age of 16 be required to get an abortion. Somehow I don't think that would go over very well heh.

[Asimov]

They're just fetuses....it's not like they're human or anything.

[Dianka]

Seems in BT's situation the baby would have suffered, no doubt. No woman can suffer such trauma without a baby being affected.

 

Not that it helps, but I'm sorry you went through all this BT.

 

Asimov, are you joking? I don't know.

[BigToe]

I appreciate the sentiment, but I am fine now I was just trying to give a bit more insight into why abortion in cases of rape might be a good idea if the woman chooses to do so.

[godlessgrrl]

I am rabidly pro-choice.

 

I firmly believe that men and women need to have every option available to them when it comes to family planning. That includes birth control, abortion, abstinence, medical care for STD's, adoption, and the like. I am a stauch advocate of both sex ed and free and easy access to birth control of all kinds. I also firmly believe that no child should come into this world unwanted and unloved, and that the quality of a child's life far outweighs the quantity of existing at all. (If that makes sense.)

 

I also think that the term "pro-life" is a total manipulative misnomer. Most pro-life people aren't pro-life at all, they're anti-abortion. I don't have a problem with anyone being anti-abortion - in fact I think that there aren't terribly many people who would look at abortion as being a great and wonderful thing, and in that sense be "pro-abortion". I have a serious issue with the pro-life movement calling itself "pro-life", though. Try talking in particular to the most dogmatically religious pro-lifers and see if their concern for human life is measured in terms of quality or quantity. That is, does their pro-life stance end at birth, or does it continue until the end of the human lifespan?

 

I'm pro-choice for other reasons too. I suppose that when it boils down to it, I'm pro-choice mainly because I'm a woman, and I never, ever want to be put in a position in which I am forced to bear and birth some man's child against my will. Fuck that. I'm not on this earth to be a baby factory, thankyouverymuch. If I ever decide to have kids, it has to be my decision, not someone else's.

[Dianka]

 

 

Throwing up the shocker in concurrence.

 

Right on, momma.

[Asimov]

Asimov, are you joking? I don't know.

 

Why would I be joking and what's wrong with saying that?

[Dianka]

Asimov, are you joking? I don't know.

 

Why would I be joking and what's wrong with saying that?

 

 

Nothing wrong with saying that. I simply didn't know.

[Asimov]

Nothing wrong with saying that. I simply didn't know.

 

It was blunt and to the point...I didn't see any reason to bandy about.

 

[Thurisaz]

What do you think of this issue as an ex-christian?

 

As is so often the case in real life (i. e. outside of the nice black-or-white fundie dreamland), there are pro's and con's to abortion.

I fully support abortion when the mother's life is in danger otherwise, or when the baby will have a life expectancy in the "very low" range and much suffering ahead due to a genetic defect et cetera.

I'd have to decide on a case-by-case basis if abortion is considered due to social problems... say, a young lady up over her head in school et cetera will have to choose to either have the baby or work on having some decent chances in life (you know, something other than housewife for life).

I flatly refuse to condone abortion in cases where the mom-to-be just was too fucking lazy to use contraception and now wants to get rid off the pesky child to party on.

Well, and in related cases where she knew that the dad-to-be could have used a rubber but was too lazy... and where she still spread for him.