Illegal Immigrants

[Guest yoshi]

Illegal Immigrants, who make up 11 million person, cost the state of California over 10 billion dollars a year. I have no hate towards Mexicans - heck, some of the coolest people I know are Mexican. But I'm not going to pay for illegal immigrants to suck up all of our resources. KICK THEM OUT. These illegal immigrants are taking around 5% of our population, they don't pay taxes, they are simply an economic burden. I am all for legal immigrants.

 

Now, simply because California's governer - the well known Arnold Schwarzenegger - said that the modern-day minutemen are doing the nation good by exposing how big the illegal immigration problem is and by taking steps to stop it, he's being branded as racist against Mexicans. In the words of Bill O'Reilly, "Demand border security, and you'll be branded anti-hispanic."

 

I'd like to express my own thanks to the minutemen for the work they are doing. And while Bill O'Reilly is, well... a bit loco, he hit this issue right on the spot. Good Job Bill, and Governer Schwarzenegger for putting this issue on the spot.

 

Sign the petition for the government to actually take some action and secure our borders.

 

"We the undersigned, being citizens of the United States, respectfully ask that you and your administration provide more resources to protecting the borders of the USA. By all accounts, the situation regarding undocumented alien crossings and illegal narcotics smuggling remains dangerous and troubling. In the post 9/11 era, our country simply cannot tolerate illegal immigration chaos.

 

Therefore we request, Mr. President, that you use your Executive Authority to immediately bolster border defenses by increasing the federal law enforcement presence and, possibly, by allocating the military to assist the Border Patrol and other federal agencies in charge of controlling the borders.

 

We submit our names with the appreciation of your consideration."

 

<center><a href="http://www.reformus.org/">http://www.reformus.org/</a></center>

 

I also put this rant on my blog, http://yoshiyahu.blogdrive.com/

[nightflight]

Good post. I hate it when they say its "racist" to oppose illegal immigration. What the hell, should we scrap all immigration policies and just have open borders?

 

No, its not racist to want SANE immigration policies. Thankfully, cry of "racism" is losing its power due to overuse. Perhaps we can get back the true meaning of the word rather than the overly broad one.

[Guest MalaInSe]

Um, yeah as a matter of fact they do pay taxes. They pay sales tax to begin with. In my community, that's currently over 8%. Additionally, the ones working generally have fake social security numbers. That means that they are paying taxes, and are also paying into social security and other social programs that they can't actually take advantage of. They're not getting a refund on the taxes they overpay.

 

In the state of California, there are actually a whole lot of programs they can't take advantage of, thanks to recent legislation.

 

The fact is, California companies benefit from illegal immigration. They can hire undocumented workers for really crappy work for wages far lower than they would have to pay documented workers. Californians benefit too, in the form of payments into social programs that never have to be paid out, and in the form of cheaper service costs from that cheap labor.

 

Can you provide for me the source of the statistics about cost to the State of California? Its been my experience as a Californian that protests about such costs tend to be vastly inflated and not balanced by the amount of money that undocumented workers put into the system that they cannot recoup, or the actual benefits of such labor to Californians.

[Mr. Neil]

There's bullshit on both sides of the fence. I hate when they cry racism. That is absolutely unfair. It's a cheap shot that rallies emotion rather than expressing a real argument.

 

You're right. It's lost efficacy.

[Vixentrox]

They are ILLEGAL. They don't belong here be they Mexican or not. Wanting the governemnt to enforce it's immigartion laws and improve border security is not racists at all in my book. I signed the petition too. Shut that border down. They want to come here, they can apply and do it legally. It's not like they are being executed on the other side of the border.

[pitchu]

To the best of my knowledge MalaInSe is absolutely right... about taxes, programs, contributions, etc.

 

That there's hypocrisy in regulating our border with Mexico, owing to the current administration's benevolence to mega-gigantus-growers shouldn't come as any surprise. Our border 'sloppiness' is a gift to the very wealthy, just as are many policies in many areas.

 

What bothers me is the hypocrisy of those who would crack down on the economically desperate Mexicans before they would crack down on the economically rapacious agri-businesses and the people in political power who enable their pan-exploitation.

 

There is no reason the U.S. can't recognize that we have a special responsibility to the people who live south of the border we instated through robbing them of their land in an unjust war. We didn't need that Mexican territory. We just f'n wanted it, like we wanted everything imaginable which led us to dispossess and/or invade untold numbers of other human beings on this planet we share.

[Vixentrox]

So give up your ill-gotten house to an illegal then.

[RedPillAddict]

So give up your ill-gotten house to an illegal then.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

exactly. less talk, more action. At least invite a few to live with you until they can get on their feet.

[pitchu]

So give up your ill-gotten house to an illegal then.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It's a fascinating assumption that I haven't. Or wouldn't. Or don't do any number of things to put action behind my convictions.

[Vixentrox]

Thats very generous to give your house away. Nice of them to let you stay in thier house that you gave them. Personnaly, I don't feel guilty about what my ancestors did way back when. Was it wrong? Maybe...but I wasn't there and neither were you, and neither were the ones coming across the border.

[pitchu]

Vixentrox,

 

Do you think the injustices perpetrated by the policy of Manifest Destiny have somehow just melted away through the generations?

 

Do you think that after a certain period of time a nation is cleansed of its responsibility to attempt to right past wrongs done in that nation's name? If so, what amount of time is involved in wiping the slate clean?

[Cerise]

If you're going to go after everyone who doesn't pay taxes, please be fair and go after corporations as well. I suspect the American people are being ripped off more by industry then by illegal immigrants in the long run.

 

And weren't you supposed to be tightening border security after 9/11 anyway? What happened?

[pitchu]

Well, Cerise, er, uh, it's kinda, y'see, here in the States we like to take great care to make sure our Terror Alert Color Chart is mesmerizing enough so that people aren't interested in looking too hard at what the actual gov't. practices are re: hardening targets like ports, chemical plants, nuclear facilities -- that kinda boring stuff, or in delivering a clear, pragmatic and moral policy (bleh!) about borders, and instead we count on churning up hard feelings around time-honored bias-issues to distract folks from seeing the pedicured corporate toes we're not stepping on.

 

We feel that, in the long run, this approach pays off better for us (us being what those Hollywood liberal elites call Fat-Cat Power-Lusters, of course) than going around protecting a few million pissy inhabitants of our property, the U.S.A.! Long May She Wave! eh... Waver! uh...Wave!

 

Hope this clears things up fer ya, Little Canadian Missy!

[Thurisaz]

Now, simply because California's governer - the well known Arnold Schwarzenegger - said that the modern-day minutemen are doing the nation good by exposing how big the illegal immigration problem is and by taking steps to stop it, he's being branded as racist against Mexicans. In the words of Bill O'Reilly, "Demand border security, and you'll be branded anti-hispanic."

 

Welcome to the whimsical world of convenient scapegoating.

This is pretty much the same which any German has to face if he says anything against Jews or against the nation of Israel. We don't need to argue for a second about demonizing Jews for being Jews (that's so obviously wrong that any comment should be unneeded), but even the most legitimate criticism of, say, the Israeli treatment of Palestinians will result in the one making the claim being forever branded as nazi scum. Same goes for pretty much every kind of foreigners. Call me a fascist if you want, but we would have some less problems if we could kick out drug-dealing Africans et cetera without having to worry about being branded neonazis for that.

[Vixentrox]

Vixentrox,

 

Do you think the injustices perpetrated by the policy of Manifest Destiny have somehow just melted away through the generations?

 

Do you think that after a certain period of time a nation is cleansed of its responsibility to attempt to right past wrongs done in that nation's name?  If so, what amount of time is involved in wiping the slate clean?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Well, hell...let just disband the whole country and only allow native Americans to live here then. If your of Euro decent, pack your stuff up and go back to what ever country your ancestors came from. Oh and hey, how about those Euro countries....guess why thier borders are they way they are? That's right, warfare. So we need to go back even further to our hunter gather tirbal ancestors and the stone age before nations were formed. After all, we don't want to have anything to do with ill gotten gains.

[Biggles7268]

I am more concerned with getting screwed by big business than I am about people looking for a better life. as long as they want to become citizens, learn english and don't commit any crimes then I have no problem helping them out. this is a country of immigrants after all.

[doomguarder]

Although illegal immigrants often pay payroll taxes, SS taxes, and sales taxes, they are also draw on services most notably the education system. Along with the Mexican workers we get immigrants from all over the world utilizing the Mexican border as a entry point into the US.

 

Currently I employ three legal Mexican immigrants. One got her citizenship last year so she could vote in the election. She has been in the US since she was 3. Her mother just started the process of citizenship, and should have hers by next July. The last still feels great pride in Mexico and has chosen not to go this route, instead he plans to retain his work visa until better jobs are available in his home town. All went through the immigration process, received their visas, then entered the US. All are protected by our laws, do not feel fear of going to the police when a wrong has been done to them, have bought homes, cars, and other things to support the local economy. They are not subject to many of the illegal employment practices of the corporations that take advantage of this very exploitable population.

 

I agree with pichu that the corporations, be they agriculture or manufacturing, should be held accountable for hiring illegal immigrants. The fine must be greater than the savings, just so the bean counters tell the management that it is better not to hire them than suffer the fine. Many of the jobs that Americans “won’t do” simply do not pay enough because of the depressed wages illegal workers will accept. Jobs that sucked used to pay more, well, because they sucked.

 

Yes, the cost of products will go up. I am willing to pay more, knowing that people are not being mistreated to produce the goods I buy. I already utilize my economic power to buy from companies I agree with. I have not set foot in a Wal-mart in 2 years. I make every effort to buy American made products (when they are available), and to support companies who treat their workers with respect. Fair Trade Coffee, locally farmed produce and meats, local dairy farms, and the like are all out their making the same product for a bit more money, but guilt free. Every member of a capitalist economy has a small amount of economic power at their disposal. How you choose to spend your hard earned cash effects what companies succeed in the market place.

 

Legal immigration benefits everyone. Illegal immigration benefit corporations more than citizen of the US or our government.

 

Our border needs to be closed down and the border running stopped. Immigrations laws should be enforced and new stronger measures taken against companies that utilize their labor. Lower the demand, and the supply will follow. All three of my employees are very disappointed that the Mexican government has not spent more time on their own industry and economy. All feel that if jobs were available in Mexico, far fewer people would flood into the US. All three are proud of being from Mexico, and thankful the US provided them the means to raise their families. This is not about hating their country, it is about economic opportunity. That opportunity is best served when the people are protected by the laws of the states and nation.

 

On the other subject that has come up…

All nations that stand today have done something that was not right in their past. I do not know of a single nation that was created on peace instead of war. I would love to know of one, so if I am wrong let me know. We can not right every wrong in our past. The best we can do is continue to improve our society to provide opportunity to all of our citizens and legal immigrants. We are not, nor will we ever be perfect. We can only strive to be the best we can. Yes, the US was inhabited when the white Europeans arrived. I am part Native American, and my husband is a card carrying member of what remains of the Choctaws. There is no way to return to the days of the plains. No way to correct the wrongs done to the original inhabitants of this land. Allowing illegal immigration does not make up for what was done. It only propagates more wrongs against these poor people who are only seeking to better themselves. They continue to be exploited and unprotected by the laws of this nation has set in place to protect workers.

[atheist_thinker]

I got no proplem with people wanting to come here for a better life, But I think they need to at least go through the proper process. My great grand father came from germany but he aslo went through elis island. Good enough for him then it should be good enough for the rest.

 

There are alot of good reasons for people being screened befor they come here, one is of health issues. Some are bringing in TB and other diseases that we wiped out long time ago. Other issue is also that because they are not documented they may be discouraged from sending their kids to get the proper inoculations wich then could sperad to our childrean. I'm not trying to spread fear but just looking at what is probable and what is not.

 

As for as small towns like Decature AL they are over running the town. Yea they may pay in taxes but they also leach off whole lot more. We all ready have alot of closed plants and jobless people as it is. It just amplifies what social and economic problems there are. But if they can pull them selves out then more power to them.

 

I don't owe any mexican or any one else a dam thing. I get tired of hearing that its our responsibility, it's Not mine, I didn't do a dam thing to them. What ever land that was taken during conflict was more then hundred years ago and they had plenty of time to setup a responsible economic and political system.

 

Mexico's problems are more complicated then just poverty. They have gaint reserves of oil and they have more then there fare share of millionares. They have a strong ties to the catholic church mixed with some old left over ramifications of spanish politics. They have had a corrupt leaders ever since Cortes. What ever freedoms or liberties they started out with do not come cloes to what we have. What ever ingenuity or economic advances that came were stolen and impeded by their religion controled government.

 

I think something bad has to happen to mexico for it to change so impoverished people won't have to have a need to come here. Worse case is a communist revolution or some sort. But who knows.

[white_raven23]

Illegal immigrants wouldn't be such an issue of most of the big $$$$$ companies and production facilities in this country weren't OUTSOURCED (I hate that) to second and third world countries to take advantage of cheap labor.

Thus taking jobs out of our own country and away from people who need them. You add the illegals, and you have a glut of even more people scrabbling for fewer jobs with decent wages, and illegals willingness to work for less money making it all worse.

 

And who hasn't been pissed off trying to phone help for technical issues with their electronics only to get transfered overseas to speak to someone who barely speaks english.

 

Outsourcing. Hate it.

[Cynical Realist]

As I see it, California was a part of Mexico until the US government stole it (new mexico also actually) so if "Mexicans" want to come back to their home I see no problem.

(just a small touch of sarcasm and hatred for the us government included free of charge in the above statement)

 

The real problem isn't mexicans crossing the border and finding employment to better themselves or their families. The real problem is that the borders are wide open to any "terrorist" who would like easy entrance into the country.

[Lokmer]

Do you think the injustices perpetrated by the policy of Manifest Destiny have somehow just melted away through the generations?

 

Do you think that after a certain period of time a nation is cleansed of its responsibility to attempt to right past wrongs done in that nation's name?  If so, what amount of time is involved in wiping the slate clean?

 

I have several major problems with this rehtoric, Pitchu.

 

1) It ignores the responsibility of (in this case) Mexico, who first stole the land from the natives. It further ignores that Mexico is/has been run by organized crime and The Catholic Church (same crowd, different division) since the Spanish first landed there. They have the natural resources, the manpower, and the capability to create the infrastructure to support their people in a fabulous way. They're not doing it. And it's not the U.S.'s fault - it's the fault of the Catholic Church (if a finger MUST be pointed). But it's the responsibility of the Mexican people.

 

2) The generational guilt cycle has to end somewhere. In cultures where it does not end (say, Islamic cultures in the Middle East, Northern Ireland, Yugoslavia) they are still fighting over events that happened hundreds and sometimes thousands of years ago, with each new wrong being inflated to a terribly grevious wrong and a reason to keep fighting, and each atrocity committed by the home team being cheered as a heroic triumph. To quote one of my favorite authors: "You kill them and take their land, they kill you and take the land back. On and on it goes, generation after generation. Where does the cycle end?"

 

The United States did relatively little grevious harm to Mexico (compared to, say, the aboriginal nations in our own borders). Mexico, as a country, has kept itself fairly well over a barrel, on and off, for four hundred years. Even NAFTA, which isn't great for Mexico (and, for the record, ought to be recinded), isn't grounds for opening our borders and allowing unlimited undocumented immigration.

 

3) Curbing illegal immigration is in everyone's best interest, except for the few companies that profit off of it. It's in the interest of the immigrants, who will be in a position to demand legal protections from their employers. It's in the interest of the economy, as it gets more cash circulating through the hands of higher paid workers. It's in the interest of the taxpayers, who do not have as much being pulled out of the system by illegals grabbing the benefits that they are allowed and do have more legitimate tax money being fed into the system. It's in the interest of public health for reasons already cited. About the only people whose interestes it is NOT in are the people exploiting the illegals in the first place. Giving rights and priviliages to people who are breaking the law in order to become slave labor is terribly counterproductive to human rights and to the interests of those that one is allegedly trying to help, as well as utterly counterproductive to the interests of a free society governed by the rule of law.

 

 

------------

Re: Manifest Destiny

 

I hold it in just as much contempt as you do, and, when the opportunity arises, I do what I can to fight against it, to repair in the ways I can some of the damage it has done. I'm conscious about my purchasing habits and my charity habits and my voting habits. But, the bottom line is...

 

It's not my fault. MY people, on my father's side, were some of those wiped out by manifest destiny. And the people on my Mother's side were the people that did the wiping out. The political policies of past governments of this nation are out of my control and not my responsibility. I will not be shamed into the cycles of guilt and retribution. It's one thing to be sentitive to the historical context of your actions. It's quite another to be ruled by "the responsibility to right the wrongs done in this nation's name."

 

------

Illegal immigration is bad for everyone except for those who exploit the workers. The solution is not to make illegal immigration more attractive, but to make it more difficult and arduous at the same time as encouraging legal immigration and cracking down on the bastards that are exploiting the slave labor.

 

And, incidentally, it's not only Mexicans who come up through the border to work for slave wages. There are thousands of southern Chinese who are funneled up that way who ARE slaves - real, honest to goodness, owned by a person slaves and indentured servants. Most of them are moved through California to New York and New Jersy to provide cheap labor in resteraunts, sweat shops, and whorehouses that are owned by the Chinese mob. Shut the mexican border, and you cause great problems for the slave trade in this country.

-Lokmer

 

P.S. Looking back over that rather combative post, it seems that I should add, Pitchu, that I always do find your points and posts very thought provoking and intelligent. Thanks much for being around

[nightflight]

Do you think that after a certain period of time a nation is cleansed of its responsibility to attempt to right past wrongs done in that nation's name? If so, what amount of time is involved in wiping the slate clean?

 

Interesting point. How long? While I do think that wrongs should be righted, isn't there a point where the slate is wiped clean?

 

Its almost like a secular version of Original Sin.

[Vixentrox]

Interesting point.  How long?  While I do think that wrongs should be righted, isn't there a point where the slate is wiped clean? 

 

Its almost like a secular version of Original Sin.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

As Lokmer said, if you don't get passed it, you have the Balkans or the Middle East. Constant warfare over who is "right" and trying to justify some wrong that was done 100 years ago...or 200...or 500...or 1000 years ago.

[pitchu]

First to the issue of guilt and/or shame: Imo, no one needs to feel it if they haven't caused the harm. I don't propose rectification because of guilt or shame, but because it is right. Rectification and right share the same root. We should do what's right. Period. Guilt and shame out the window as an issue.

 

Then there's the need to decide what's the right thing to do, which, imo, has much or all to do with what's possible. To my mind, the cut-off date for righting wrongs is when direct amends/reparations are impossible to make to those suffering, still, from what can be directly tied to a nation's former and ongoing policies.

 

Few if any scholars/historians see the Mexican-American War as anything but a brazen land grab. That war took place during the years 1846 - 1848 (website below). Not exactly the kind of ancient history that would necessitate our looking at cave drawings to discern what happened and what our role was as a nation and what consequences our nation's actions had on the Mexicans of that time and their ensuing five to seven generations. That's all -- 5 to 7. Many homes have four generations living in them, so just how foggy and distant is all that war-butchery-theft stuff? And in the intervening years, our country has done everything possible to make and maintain Mexico as a banana republic, under our thumb and at our constant service. (Please, nobody point to Cortez as a leader of Mexico!...nor to the puppets the U.S. has helped to install as being legitimate choices of Mexico's people... nor to the myriad of suppressed, failed uprisings among its people as signs of their innate character flaws or something.)

 

The final and most thoroughgoing of our poisonous measures against Mexico is NAFTA-GATT (website on Public Citizen's Report, giving straight "Fs" to this treaty's success in Mexico, below). The U.S. has assiduously impoverished and looted Mexico through 5 to 7 generations, and I say it's time to begin righting that wrong:

 

The U.S. should withdraw fron NAFTA/GATT. This already would make it more possible for more Mexicans to be able to survive, economically, in their own country.

 

The U.S. should institute and actively pursue a fair, reasoned immigration program for Mexican citizens which recognizes our having done special harm to them and our making it economically unfeasible for them to rise above poverty in their own country (unless they're nephews or brothers-in-law of politicos, in which case they have little cause to immigrate). Whether this means a greater quota for Mexicans than Danes, or whatever the hell, can be worked out. And should be.

 

The U.S. should overhaul its border policy in tandem with the above, with tenets which expressly protect our border security rather than protect our rapacious abusers of undocumented immigrant labor.

 

The U.S. politicians should be hammered by American citizens for attempting to instigate and maintain class warfare, race warfare, economic warfare, sexual warfare, religious warfare, border warfare, pretend warfare and any and all unjust warfare, all of which provides a smokescreen of social turmoil, victimization and indignation, behind which those politicos currently carry out their nefarious plans to rob us of our future.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican-American_War

 

http://www.citizen.org/trade/nafta/votes/a...les.cfm?ID=6473

[Lokmer]

The final and most thoroughgoing of our poisonous measures against Mexico is NAFTA-GATT (website on Public Citizen's Report, giving straight "Fs" to this treaty's success in Mexico, below).  The U.S. has assiduously impoverished and looted Mexico through 5 to 7 generations, and I say it's time to begin righting that wrong:

 

The U.S. should withdraw fron NAFTA/GATT.  This already would make it more possible for more Mexicans to be able to survive, economically, in their own country.

 

The U.S. should institute and actively pursue a fair, reasoned immigration program for Mexican citizens which recognizes our having done special harm to them and our making it economically unfeasible for them to rise above poverty in their own country (unless they're nephews or brothers-in-law of politicos, in which case they have little cause to immigrate). Whether this means a greater quota for Mexicans than Danes, or whatever the hell, can be worked out.  And should be.

 

The U.S. should overhaul its border policy in tandem with the above, with tenets which expressly protect our border security rather than protect our rapacious abusers of undocumented immigrant labor.

 

The U.S. politicians should be hammered by American citizens for attempting to instigate and maintain class warfare, race warfare, economic warfare, sexual warfare, religious warfare, border warfare, pretend warfare and any and all unjust warfare, all of which provides a smokescreen of social turmoil, victimization and indignation, behind which those politicos currently carry out their nefarious plans to rob us of our future.

 

No argument on any of these points at all

 

-Lokmer