Illegal Immigrants

[Chad3232132]

I tend to agree that something needs to be done to crack down on illegal immigration as well. Living in Central Florida, there were practically no Hispanics here about 5 years ago. Now I see more and more every time I drive from work in th mornings. I'd estimate about 75% of construction workers around here are now Hispanic compared with maybe 10% a few years ago. A family member of one of my friends was actually in a car accident caused by an illegal immigrant driving with no license just a few months ago and was hurt in the accident. Something really needs to be done. As controversial as building a fence along the border with Mexico might be, it wouldn't be a bad idea at this point.

 

I agree with Bill O'Reilly as well on immigration problems, even though I'm a liberal and I don't agree with him on 99% of other issues. His suggestion of putting National Guard troops along the border however just doesn't seem feasible considering so many troops are being used in Iraq and for other domestic purposes. Maybe hiring many more border patrolmen to the payroll could help. I just hope in the near future the politicians in this country will wake up and do something about illegal immigration. Unfortunately is it now stands neither political party has the political will to take a stand and deal with this issue seriously.

[Cerise]

(to serve and protect America, aka being an honest tax payer)

 

Ha! Americans as honest taxpayers! That's funny.

 

The U.S.A. was founded because a group of Brits didn't want to pay their taxes.

[Chad3232132]

I tend to agree that something needs to be done to crack down on illegal immigration as well. Living in Central Florida, there were practically no Hispanics here about 5 years ago. Now I see more and more every time I drive from work in th mornings. I'd estimate about 75% of construction workers around here are now Hispanic compared with maybe 10% a few years ago. A family member of one of my friends was actually in a car accident caused by an illegal immigrant driving with no license just a few months ago and was hurt in the accident. Something really needs to be done. As controversial as building a fence along the border with Mexico might be, it wouldn't be a bad idea at this point.

 

I agree with Bill O'Reilly as well on immigration problems, even though I'm a liberal and I don't agree with him on 99% of other issues. His suggestion of putting National Guard troops along the border however just doesn't seem feasible considering so many troops are being used in Iraq and for other domestic purposes. Maybe hiring many more border patrolmen to the payroll could help. I just hope in the near future the politicians in this country will wake up and do something about illegal immigration. Unfortunately is it now stands neither political party has the political will to take a stand and deal with this issue seriously.

 

But if some of the hispanics are here legally, and have taken the Immergrant oath of alligeance. (to serve and protect America, aka being an honest tax payer), then don't they deserve to work on those contruction jobs? If they're the Tony Montana sell drugs to Americans type then they don't deserve to be here. That's where my parents draw the line. Like too many Chinese come here on the boat, and they be gang members, instead of hard working honest Canadians as my dad was. That's what pisses them off alot!

 

Like when Immergrants come here, they have to learn English (in theory this practice isn't carried out of course), and have to do an "Americanization" test, where they are test on their knowledge of America (history), how the voting and government system works, and how they can make America a better place.

 

Then they are sworn in as immergrants, this process usually takes like 3 years thats what my dad tells me. And its not fair that illegals keep on comming in, and not taking the test, does jack shit to make America or Canada a better place. That pisses me off too, because they're just lazy bums that wander in.

 

 

Any person here legally has every right to any job they want. I said those here illegally do not. And a large number of those construction workers, farm workers, etc. in my area are illegal.

[sixoverme]

yeah...id like to see californias infrastructure survive with out all those evil illegals...wanna know why there are no other good americans waiting at 5 or 6 in the morning at the Home Depot for a foreman to come choose them? cuz they wont work those jobs! again...lets see california survive a year with out illegals...wont happen...too much depends on their labor...and you think they cost us too much money in health care and education? wait till you see how much they cost us when they arent here to do their jobs any more...you see illegals as someone trying to fuck the system and come to america to get a free ride? i see us as having lived too long on the sweat off their backs...but think about this...how many mexicans or any other person would come to america for work illegally if NO AMERICANS GAVE THEM A JOB?!?! put the blame where it belongs folks...they only come here because, as much as some of you may bitch and complain, youre still employing them...and on a closing note...before you start judging these people, live a day in their shoes...go live in latin america for a while (without a cushy american job that pays you in dollars)...see how much you like it

[nightflight]

put the blame where it belongs folks...they only come here because, as much as some of you may bitch and complain, youre still employing them.

 

What's this "we" business? I'm not employing them. Don't lump me or anyone else here with those who illegally employ aliens.

[Chad3232132]

yeah...id like to see californias infrastructure survive with out all those evil illegals...wanna know why there are no other good americans waiting at 5 or 6 in the morning at the Home Depot for a foreman to come choose them? cuz they wont work those jobs! again...lets see california survive a year with out illegals...wont happen...too much depends on their labor...and you think they cost us too much money in health care and education? wait till you see how much they cost us when they arent here to do their jobs any more...you see illegals as someone trying to fuck the system and come to america to get a free ride? i see us as having lived too long on the sweat off their backs...but think about this...how many mexicans or any other person would come to america for work illegally if NO AMERICANS GAVE THEM A JOB?!?! put the blame where it belongs folks...they only come here because, as much as some of you may bitch and complain, youre still employing them...and on a closing note...before you start judging these people, live a day in their shoes...go live in latin america for a while (without a cushy american job that pays you in dollars)...see how much you like it

 

 

Sorry but that is complete BS. There has always been plenty of construction going on, and Home Depot did just fine before the illegal immigration waves. To think that America would fall under without them is simply not true. The waves of illegal immigrants DO NOT fill jobs noone else would do, they simply depress wages for those lower skilled Americans and/or put them out of work.

[nirrti]

I'm all for immigrants going through the proper channels to live in this country though I find it disconcerting that our border is more open than a 7/11. Interestingly, I've recently been researching immigration requirements of several countries I'd like to live in since I've always wanted to live abroad. What I found, particularly with Australia, Canada, New Zealand and the UK is that you would pretty much have to be middle-upper class, have had steady employment in your home country for the past 5-10 years and even if you were working, the job had to correspond to a list of professional-level positions listed in their criteria.

 

In other words, you'd better not try immigrating to their country unless you're educated and well off in the first place. And as for getting an employer to sponsor you? You can forget it. The employer has to prove to the government they couldn't find one native citizen in their entire country to fill the position you applied for plus the job has to be one of the skilled positions, most of which require some certification or college degree....which you must also prove you have. If you were self employed, you must have references from clients and a business license for every year you worked. The only other people who can sponsor you are blood relatives who are above a designated income level and have been residing in that country for a number of years.

 

That said, though America's immigration laws give at least a fighting chance for legal residency regardless of financial or educational background, it puzzles me that a country that's in such imminent danger of a terrorist attack plus has a history of drug dealing and other unlawful activity crossing through Mexico and other places would have some of the most lax security in the world. I mean, look at our quiet neighbor to the North, Canada. You try crossing their borders without authorization and see what happens. Heck, try going to Australia and seeking political asylum. Those Aussies will throw your butt in prison.....and keep you there......until your asylum application is approved.

 

And just in case you missed it, except when a person's life is in iminate danger if they stay in their home country, I'm totally against illegal immigration because it not only drives down wages for those of us who are here legally by giving these crooked employers people they can exploit, it's like having an open wound and not going to the ER to have it stitched. You may survive but you'll be very vulnerable to all kinds of bad things getting into your system.

[sixoverme]

http://immigration.about.com/cs/economicsl...rforcegrowt.htm

[Ro-bear]

The money we've thrown away in Iraq could have done much to permanently secure our southern border.

[Vigile]

Sorry but that is complete BS. There has always been plenty of construction going on, and Home Depot did just fine before the illegal immigration waves. To think that America would fall under without them is simply not true. The waves of illegal immigrants DO NOT fill jobs noone else would do, they simply depress wages for those lower skilled Americans and/or put them out of work.

 

Uh, I'd like to know what world you live in, but it's certainly not in the reality of what's going on all across the US and has been long, long, long before the CEO of home depo was still in diapers.

 

Will you or anyone you know go out and weed the fields for 14-16 hours a day in the hot sun for virtuall nothing? Will you or anyone you know work in a chicken factory pulling the feathers off your KFC friers under grueling conditions for next to nothing?

 

How the hell do they depress wages? They are illegal mind you. They work because people give them work and they accept slave like conditions and wages below minimum because there are US citizens willing to break the law and employ them.

 

Sixoverme added a voice of reason to the xenophobia flying around here.

 

Oh, and that wage depression issue is also complete bullshit in more than one way. Are you willing to pay much more for your fruits and vegetables? The cost of highering labor at minimum wage will have to be priced into them if the borders are closed. In fact, you won't find enough legal workers willing to work the types of ag jobs that the hispanics now work at unless you offered compelling wages, which would be much higher than minimum. The price of many of your necessisities will increase as the cost of labor to provide them would rise considerably without illegal immigrant workers filling in the gaps. Do you think your boss will give you a raise to adjust for the inflation you are surely going to have to price into your buget?

 

One final thought.

 

Do you know lots of americans sitting in the unemployment lines complaining because the poor mexicans took their feild weeding jobs from them? Do you know lots (read hundereds of thousands) of americans who are willing to live a migrant lifestyle following the work up from the south in the early spring and finishing up the season up north in the late fall?

[sixoverme]

thank you vigile...i grew up as a missionarys kid in latin america...i saw what people live like in central america...its not coconuts and maitais...then to move to california and see the slave labor they are subjected to (yes by choice, but its like god giving you the choice of heaven or hell, at least california slave jobs offer a better opportunity for them and their family than destitution in mexico)...its appalling...and even more so to see a group of so called enlightened people take out their frustrations about a depressed economy (so depressed that you have the ability to be on the friggin internet, by the way) on a group of people who are just trying to do something better for themselves and their family..would you break the law to make sure your family had food on its table?? oh how soon we forget that our forefathers came to this country for the very same reason, to escape oppression and forge a better life for their families...but if a bunch of brown mexicans come over here and start pickin fruit in the field and take my goddamn god given right to pick that same goddamn fruit for $5(or less) an hour, well ill be goddamn...praise jesus

[Ro-bear]

Sixoverme added a voice of reason to the xenophobia flying around here.

 

 

I hope you are not suggesting that everyone who wishes to have our immigration laws obeyed and our borders secured is xenophobic.

 

When people break the law with impunity, it fosters disrespect for law in general. We should get rid of the laws we won't enforce and enforce the laws that our elected representatives pass.

 

My former roommate is a naturalized American citizen, born in Mexico. He served for twenty years as a navy corpsman. He feels, as I do, that immigration laws must be enforced. If the economical consequences are as dire as some here suggest, then I'm sure there will be impetus to make the necessary adjustments to the law.

[Mike D]

they simply depress wages for those lower skilled Americans and/or put them out of work.

Well, that is unless those unskilled Americans can get a unionized job making $90,000 a year plus benefits and pension for doing low skilled work. My guess is that for every illegal worker who is making a depressed wage, there is a low skilled American counterpart out there who is making a grossly overinflated wage through a union. To me it is a form of social welfare when I buy a product at an artificially high price to pay the salary for someone to put Bolt A into Nut A and tighten the screw. So I guess there is a flip side to every coin.

 

My personal opinion is I don't think anyone should employ illegals because it is illegal, and that exposes the workers to abuse. Having said that though I actually have more respect for Mexicans who come here and pick lettuce for $2 an hour than legal Americans who collect welfare and do absolutely nothing but pump out more kids who will probably also end up on welfare themselves or in jail, both at taxpayer expense. Who really is the bigger burden on society here?

[Vigile]

I hope you are not suggesting that everyone who wishes to have our immigration laws obeyed and our borders secured is xenophobic.

 

I never suggested that. Are you suggesting that there has not been a fairly high level of xenophobia exhibited here in regard to this issue though? For example, Chad's claim that Home Depot survived just fine prior to the waves of illegal immigration. I don't have the figures in front of me, but I think Home Depot hasn't been around more than 20-years at best. Every heard of Cesar Chavez? We have been using migrant labor like slaves for the benefit of our own economic growth a lot longer than Home Depot has been around. Now people here have the gall to complain not about the conditions of the migrant worker's whose labor benefits us all, but that the migrants are breaking an oft broken law to try and better their already miserable lives. Hell, the fact that there are migrants willing to do shitty jobs for next to nothing probably keeps a lot of industry from fleeing the high labor markets of the US in the first place. Who will buy US corn for example if it costs three times more than south American corn?

 

When people break the law with impunity, it fosters disrespect for law in general. We should get rid of the laws we won't enforce and enforce the laws that our elected representatives pass.

 

Then I will ask you what I asked Chad, are you willing to pay a lot more without an increased salary for items most would consider necessities such as fruit, vegetables, housing, etc?

 

My former roommate is a naturalized American citizen, born in Mexico. He served for twenty years as a navy corpsman. He feels, as I do, that immigration laws must be enforced. If the economical consequences are as dire as some here suggest, then I'm sure there will be impetus to make the necessary adjustments to the law.

 

Perhaps it's not politically viable to change the law. Perhaps high level policy makers let the law be broken on a regular basis because doing so serves the better good. What do you think would happen to a politician's career if he/she suggested opening the borders?

 

Again, I will ask everyone, who is willing to do the jobs that migrant workers do now? It's not as if hundreds of thousands of Americans are standing in soup lines because they have been displaced from the chicken factories of W VA and the corn fields of Iowa.

[nightflight]

What are Mexico's immigration policies?

 

I'm just curious.................

[Ro-bear]

Are you suggesting that there has not been a fairly high level of xenophobia exhibited here in regard to this issue though?

 

Then I will ask you what I asked Chad, are you willing to pay a lot more without an increased salary for items most would consider necessities such as fruit, vegetables, housing, etc?

 

Again, I will ask everyone, who is willing to do the jobs that migrant workers do now? It's not as if hundreds of thousands of Americans are standing in soup lines because they have been displaced from the chicken factories of W VA and the corn fields of Iowa.

 

 

I don't claim to know the hearts of those who support the enforcement of immigration laws. Perhaps some are xenophobic. I don't assume that of anyone.

 

I'm willing to pay what the market will bear for market goods. My house is paid for. Undoubtedly some of the economical fallout would be absorbed by the relief on the infrastructure.

 

You make it sound as if illegal immigrants only pick fruit and pluck chickens. In truth, they also occupy positions in manufacturing and services that might be more lucrative if they weren't holding down wages.

 

Let me be clear about this: I don't care about race or ethnicity. I am a liberal, and not the patronizing noblesse oblige kind. My ancestors were Irish immigrants in the days when "a dollar a day is paddy's pay" was a common refrain. The laws should be enforced or stricken from the books. Talk of political expediency is just equivocation.

[Vigile]

What are Mexico's immigration policies?

 

I'm just curious.................

 

Good question. I know that Foxe has in the past tried to negotiate with Bush to create a favorable labor exchange policy. He wanted to essentially legalize the immigrant laborers, asking the US to grant them some sort of work permit. I need to research this issue more though.

 

You make it sound as if illegal immigrants only pick fruit and pluck chickens. In truth, they also occupy positions in manufacturing and services that might be more lucrative if they weren't holding down wages.

 

I'm not accusing anyone here of racism. I am saying that some here are ignoring some economic realities that stem from the global economy.

 

Let me be clear, I am essentially arguing about the agricultural positions that most Americans would refuse to do.

 

That said, you bring up a point about the manufacturing sector. I would argue that even more factories would take advantage of the NAFTA treaty and move south if they were forced to take on more expensive American help. I would also argue that the bosses pretty much wouldn't have a choice in the matter under current economic treaties. No one is going to protect domestic products with tarrifs (I'm not saying they should) and as such to stay competitive against imports that are manufactured using cheap southern labor it is necessary for some industries to employ cheap labor that is available to them as well.

[Chad3232132]

Will you or anyone you know go out and weed the fields for 14-16 hours a day in the hot sun for virtuall nothing? Will you or anyone you know work in a chicken factory pulling the feathers off your KFC friers under grueling conditions for next to nothing?

 

Do you even understand supply and demand? Many of these jobs you mention actually paid a livable wage until the massive influx of low-skilled laborers occured.

 

 

How the hell do they depress wages? They are illegal mind you. They work because people give them work and they accept slave like conditions and wages below minimum because there are US citizens willing to break the law and employ them.

 

Your first sentence contradicts the rest of that statement. A large number of illegal immigrants willing to work for almost nothing under slavelike conditions is EXACTLY why wages are being depressed for low-skilled jobs.

 

Sixoverme added a voice of reason to the xenophobia flying around here.

 

Allowing illegal immigration unchecked is a voice of reason? I find that amusing. Cut the xenophobe bullshit. Americans are sick and tired of our government doing nothing to fix our non-existent immigration policy.

 

Oh, and that wage depression issue is also complete bullshit in more than one way. Are you willing to pay much more for your fruits and vegetables?

 

Yes, I am willing to pay more. In fact I don't even shop at Wal-Mart or eat at certain fast-food restaurants due to their horrendous employment practices.

 

 

Do you know lots of americans sitting in the unemployment lines complaining because the poor mexicans took their feild weeding jobs from them? Do you know lots (read hundereds of thousands) of americans who are willing to live a migrant lifestyle following the work up from the south in the early spring and finishing up the season up north in the late fall?

 

I do not know anyone complaining they lost their weeding jobs. However, I do know many people who complain they lost their construction jobs due to illegals flooding the local job market. Real wages have declined markedly for construction jobs ever since illegal immigration has peaked. Coincidence you think?

 

And just so you know, a flood of illegals isn't necessary to fill the agriculture job market. In fact agricultural jobs have been on a massive decline for many decades now. The only reason we have so many agriculture jobs is due to the government subsidies that big agriculture receives.

[Vigile]

Do you even understand supply and demand? Many of these jobs you mention actually paid a livable wage until the massive influx of low-skilled laborers occured.

 

Uh, yeah. But I don't think you do. When do you think that this "influx of low-skilled laborers" first started arriving?

 

Supply of labor in the US does not occur in a vacuum. There is this little thing called NAFTA that abolished tariffs between Mexico, SA, Canada and the US. If you increase the cost of labor in the US and demand remains constant, products produced in cheaper labor markets will shut down US manufacturing bases which would be forced to use more costly labor. It's really not that hard to understand.

 

How the hell do they depress wages? They are illegal mind you. They work because people give them work and they accept slave like conditions and wages below minimum because there are US citizens willing to break the law and employ them.

 

Your first sentence contradicts the rest of that statement. A large number of illegal immigrants willing to work for almost nothing under slave like conditions is EXACTLY why wages are being depressed for low-skilled jobs.

 

There is no contradiction here. Wages are suppressed because of the law of supply and demand in the global economy, which you have shown yourself to not understand very well.

 

Let's say I am a factory owner and I make widgets. Keeping things simple, my cost for producing widgets is two fold. The cost for materials and the cost for labor. Now widgets mind you are relatively simple to make, but making them is labor intensive. In the 90s the North American Free Trade Agreement was signed and I almost shut my widget factory down, but instead I decided I could compete with South American Widget makers based on the fact that their transportation costs are higher even though their labor costs are lower. I wouldn't be able to compete mind you if I pay my workers minimum wage or health care benis, so just based on the laws of survival alone I have hired a group of paperless immigrants to work my assembly lines. My margin of profit is thin and if I ever lost my supply of cheap labor I would have no choice but to fold up shop and move my factory down to Mexico or Guatemala like many of my competitors have already done.

 

 

Sixoverme added a voice of reason to the xenophobia flying around here.

 

Allowing illegal immigration unchecked is a voice of reason? I find that amusing. Cut the xenophobe bullshit. Americans are sick and tired of our government doing nothing to fix our non-existent immigration policy.

 

I'll have to go back and check, but I don't see where Six argued to let the flow of illegals go unchecked. He instead called you and others on your "xenophobic bullshit." You are on a free thinker's website arguing the same nonsensical bullshit that other uninformed Americans are arguing. "stop the flow of illegals, they are using our resources. it's not fair. etc..." As I argued already, perhaps the government does not stop the flow because they understand that the flow of cheap labor is a necessity for some industry. Now unless you want to start calling for a repealing of NAFTA and for punitive tariffs on competitive goods your arguments about how illegals are using up our resources fall flat. You will have to prove that they use more resources than they provide (they provide cheap labor recall).

 

The government is not only letting illegals run the border, they are not enforcing immigration labor laws in the US on a massive scale. In Idaho where I grew up you can drive by the farms any day in the spring and summer and see hundreds of paperless migrants working the fields. It would be very simple for the local sheriff to roll up and check their greencards. Hmmm... I wonder why they don't do so???

 

 

Oh, and that wage depression issue is also complete bullshit in more than one way. Are you willing to pay much more for your fruits and vegetables?

 

Yes, I am willing to pay more. In fact I don't even shop at Wal-Mart or eat at certain fast-food restaurants due to their horrendous employment practices.

 

 

How much more? I think you don't realize how significantly the prices would be raised without the $2/hour labor they are now using. It's not just an issue of you paying more either. The inflation would trigger the Fed to tighten up the monetary policy even more than they have been doing. Gold prices would soar as the Fed tried to get a handle on things. Jobs would be lost as US companies roll back due to tightening monies. Building construction would come to a halt and new car sales which are already plummeting would probably put companies like Ford - which is already in big trouble by the way - in a tail spin. This is what I do for a living. I'm not being dramatic here.

 

Do you know lots of americans sitting in the unemployment lines complaining because the poor mexicans took their field weeding jobs from them? Do you know lots (read hundreds of thousands) of americans who are willing to live a migrant lifestyle following the work up from the south in the early spring and finishing up the season up north in the late fall?

 

I do not know anyone complaining they lost their weeding jobs. However, I do know many people who complain they lost their construction jobs due to illegals flooding the local job market. Real wages have declined markedly for construction jobs ever since illegal immigration has peaked. Coincidence you think?

 

And just so you know, a flood of illegals isn't necessary to fill the agriculture job market. In fact agricultural jobs have been on a massive decline for many decades now. The only reason we have so many agriculture jobs is due to the government subsidies that big agriculture receives.

 

Again, you are reaping the benefits of these subsidies, which are two fold. First the government does subsidize ag. Then the government subsidizes the labor prices on both ag and building by not enforcing immigration laws. You get both cheap housing and cheap produce as a result. The US has a strong economy based on this system. In a global market where there are no protections from foreign products the US will lose even more industry than they already have and the strong US economy wouldn't be quite so strong any more. Since buildings for the most part cannot be produced outside the US it would be most viable for the US to start enforcing labor laws in the building industry. This is probably doable economically since I'm not sure that the migrant labor force has impacted that market to quite the same degree that they have ag.

 

You are analyzing this issue from a populist perspective Chad. There are a lot of complications you are not considering.

[Guest JPD]

Bill O'Reilly is right (for once)

 

Even a broken watch is right twice a day.

[spamandham]

It seems the easiest way to stop illegal immigration would be to decriminalize immigration.

 

Why should there be any restrictions at all, other than for criminals?

[sixoverme]

thank you vigile for putting in to rational words what i could not...i dont mean to be condecending to anyone, but the problem lies not with illegal immigrants or with labour or with the government, but with the hearts of the people...we are a country founded on the backs of immigrants and a country founded on the ideals that all are equal, but yet, we dont act that way...its an ours first and yours second view...if nothing else, our deconversions from the tyranny of christianity should show us that all are equal, no matter race country or creed...if there are people willing to do the work to provide you the lifestyle that you afford, why are we so upset? do i agree that there are americans that have lost their jobs due to these problems? hell yes! but we also live in a country where any man can make of himself what he will, if he works hard enough for it...does that always happen? no...but the opportunity is there...we as a nation have to realize that our problems do not lie in the millions of immigrants that come to this country, not in our shitty government that exploits their labour, but in the heart of a people who are too lazy to do anything about it...and this is not just a localized problem to the US...it is a global problem...but unfortunately, until things change...they will remain the same...educate the world to these issues, and maybe one day we will see a change...but sitting around and bitching about it will never do anything...like i always say...bitching about a problem doesnt solve anything...working on it does

[Chad3232132]

Uh, yeah. But I don't think you do. When do you think that this "influx of low-skilled laborers" first started arriving?

 

In my area they started arriving about five years ago in large numbers. Up until then it was a small trickle and barely noticable. I live a ways from any border, so I understand the situation varies by region.

 

There is no contradiction here. Wages are suppressed because of the law of supply and demand in the global economy, which you have shown yourself to not understand very well.

 

I was referring more to the construction job market which is big where I live, unlike the Agriculture market. I'm not sure exactly how construction jobs fit into a global market. Are you saying that if illegal immigration was cut off construction jobs would be outsourced someplace where wages are lower? Somehow I doubt that a building or road could be constructed in another country then shipped here to the U.S. as a finished prodect...

 

 

I'll have to go back and check, but I don't see where Six argued to let the flow of illegals go unchecked. He instead called you and others on your "xenophobic bullshit." You are on a free thinker's website arguing the same nonsensical bullshit that other uninformed Americans are arguing. "stop the flow of illegals, they are using our resources. it's not fair. etc..."

 

You seem to be defending unchecked immigration. No need to name call by the way. You have your ideas on the issue, and the rest of us have ours. And aside from working for slave wages, they actually DO use up resources. Any idea how much money hospitals and schools are spending each year on illegals, especially in border states?

 

 

 

How much more? I think you don't realize how significantly the prices would be raised without the $2/hour labor they are now using.

 

So you are ok with slave labor? Because that's what $2 an hour is.

 

 

 

thank you vigile for putting in to rational words what i could not...i dont mean to be condecending to anyone, but the problem lies not with illegal immigrants or with labour or with the government, but with the hearts of the people...we are a country founded on the backs of immigrants and a country founded on the ideals that all are equal, but yet, we dont act that way...its an ours first and yours second view...if nothing else, our deconversions from the tyranny of christianity should show us that all are equal, no matter race country or creed...if there are people willing to do the work to provide you the lifestyle that you afford, why are we so upset? do i agree that there are americans that have lost their jobs due to these problems? hell yes! but we also live in a country where any man can make of himself what he will, if he works hard enough for it...does that always happen? no...but the opportunity is there...we as a nation have to realize that our problems do not lie in the millions of immigrants that come to this country, not in our shitty government that exploits their labour, but in the heart of a people who are too lazy to do anything about it...and this is not just a localized problem to the US...it is a global problem...but unfortunately, until things change...they will remain the same...educate the world to these issues, and maybe one day we will see a change...but sitting around and bitching about it will never do anything...like i always say...bitching about a problem doesnt solve anything...working on it does

 

...must...use....sentences....

[Vigile]

Ok, looks like we are getting somewhere on this issue. I'm not the bad guy you know? I'm certainly no right wing Smithian capitalist-let-the-chips-fall-where-they-may kind of guy. We probably agree on more issues than you think.

 

 

I was referring more to the construction job market which is big where I live, unlike the Agriculture market. I'm not sure exactly how construction jobs fit into a global market. Are you saying that if illegal immigration was cut off construction jobs would be outsourced someplace where wages are lower? Somehow I doubt that a building or road could be constructed in another country then shipped here to the U.S. as a finished prodect...

 

Reread what I wrote. I conceded that it may be possible for the government to tighten up on enforcement in this area since construction for the most part can't be shipped. Though this is changing. A lot of construction is being done in Mexico and the peices are being shipped.

 

 

I'll have to go back and check, but I don't see where Six argued to let the flow of illegals go unchecked. He instead called you and others on your "xenophobic bullshit." You are on a free thinker's website arguing the same nonsensical bullshit that other uninformed Americans are arguing. "stop the flow of illegals, they are using our resources. it's not fair. etc..."

 

You seem to be defending unchecked immigration. No need to name call by the way. You have your ideas on the issue, and the rest of us have ours. And aside from working for slave wages, they actually DO use up resources. Any idea how much money hospitals and schools are spending each year on illegals, especially in border states?

 

I'm not defending it or supporting it, I'm just calling it as I see it. Where did I name call?

 

 

 

So you are ok with slave labor? Because that's what $2 an hour is.

 

Again, I'm not defending anything here, just calling it for what it is. I don't like slave labor and I believe in human rights. The simple fact is most of us benefit from a system that is built on that slave labor and in a global free market economy that is wrought with the disparities the like of those found between the US and Central America these are just the realities we face. Completely shutting down the borders may be a solution, but I don't think that many here know what they are asking for when they call for this; it would mean a severe lifestyle change for most Americans and a severe blow to the US and world economies.

 

As far as migrant workers using benefits; again, you will have to show how they use more than they give. The cheap labor they provide must be weighed against the benefits and resources that they use. I would argue without numbers in front of me that benefits that they provide far and away outweigh the benefits that they use.

 

 

All of that said, my own feelings on the matter are this. The migrant workers offer a rich, interesting, well knit culture. The people that arrive are not unlike many immigrants who arrived in the past and the arguments against their arrival have not changed from the times when waves of Italians and Irish were hitting the shores of Ellis Island. The workers are doing their best under awkward circumstances to assimilate (current theories argue that it takes three generations to fully assimilate) into American society. The hispanic people that I grew up around are among the hardest workers, funniest, and nicest people I have met. North Americans could learn something from them if they would stop and try (that sounded bad. I just mean that they have something to offer to, not that NAs are devoid of something). Regardless of the fact that they are working for what we consider slave labor, they are doing so trying to make a better life for their families and basically just trying to survive in a very harsh world. I for one won't decry them for that effort.