Illegal Immigrants

[pitchu]

Hey, Lok, Muchas gracias!

[nightflight]

I think we should encourage Mr. Fox to clean up his own corrupt government. Not saying that ours is glistening white, but you know what I mean.

 

I don't feel that Americans should be punished because of the crimes of others. There is a subtle insinuation in our conventional wisdom that all caucasion people should pay a price for the past sins of America. But that assumes that ALL whites have this ubiquitous privilege that others don't. SOME whites do; many do not. There are millions of poor whites in this country who have done nothing to harm anybody, and who in our popular culture are subjected to ridicule and humiliation. Slurs like "white trash", "cracker", etc. are accepted in ways that slurs against other ethnicities would never now be. What about the Irish? They went through hell in the last 150 years. Plus the hidden history of America, hidden because of shame and now because of political correctness, the kidnapping and enslaving of millions of whites, many of them children. Indentured servitude? It wasn't the Job Corp.

 

So as you see, the issue isn't so cut and dried (not that anyone here is saying as such.)

[Guest yoshi]

Do you think the injustices perpetrated by the policy of Manifest Destiny have somehow just melted away through the generations?

 

Are you claiming that we are responsible for what people did hundreds of years ago?

 

Do you think that after a certain period of time a nation is cleansed of its responsibility to attempt to right past wrongs done in that nation's name? If so, what amount of time is involved in wiping the slate clean?

 

Yes.

 

Depends on the lifespan of the people involved. Once they are gone, you can't hold anyone responsible for it. It's called responsibility for your own actions.

[Guest yoshi]

but even the most legitimate criticism of, say, the Israeli treatment of Palestinians will result in the one making the claim being forever branded as nazi scum.

 

Perhaps by Revava, but any level headed Jew won't do that. They'll admit that the situation isn't the best, but they'll say that Israel does less evil than the Palestinians. But that's for another thread

[pitchu]

Yoshi, I believe I addressed those issues in my post four above yours.

[Karl-777]

I have no problem with legal immigration, when done in moderation and by the book, but the massive amount of illegal aliens is a major problem. This country can not absorb the population of the whole Planet.

 

Bush doesn't give a damn, because as has been said, they are a cheap source of labor, to be exploited at the hands of the many-tentacled oligarchy, and its power structure. If the workers in other countries were paid a decent living wage, they would have no reason to come here. Bush didn't even stop Levi from taking their manufacturing out of Texas. NAFTA, etc were bad, but they were bad for a reason. Coupling NAFTA, etc, with job exporting and illegal aliens, the middle class will eventually be destroyed as the wage base deteriorates, leaving two groups: the top 5% of Bush (or as Bush put it in Moore's F911 clip, "the haves and the have mores") and the bottom 95% serfs. That is already happening...just look at how much it costs to even run for office, etc.

 

The insane fiscal irresponsibility of the current administration has left this country on the brink of financial collapse, with record National debt, now over $8 trillion (8 million million) of which a large portion is held by China and Saudi Arabia, leaving us at the mercy of those who we borrow over $1 billion/day from. The corporations (who long for the "good old days" of the robber-barons, with six 14-hour work days and workers living in little shacks right next to the plant....they've got it over-seas, now, thanks to the Bush administration, it's time for it to happen again here) and the oligarchists are getting everything they can (tax cuts, graft, etc.), before the shit hits the fan, in a mess that, when the engineered collapse happens, will make the misery of 1929 look like a mild dip.

 

In preparation for all this are the National ID cards, GPS ID chips, the "Patriot" Acts, color alerts, the "war on terror" (notice how there hasn't been much about Osama lately....maybe it's because dubya used to be a business partner of Osama's brother, Salem who died in a "freak accident" in .....Texas)(also note that terrorists can easily come in through Mexico, but it's worth the risk for the rest: those cheap maids, butlers, farm hands and kitchen "help" coming across the border to work under the table for Bush's rich pals), the new bankruptcy laws, which will pave the way for return to debtor's prison, abrogation of the Constitution, election fraud etc, etc.

 

Waiting in the wings for the fascist statists to assume total control, are the religionists. The easily-manipulated-by-fear sheeple, who voted for Bush because the church told them "how to vote without sinning", and because "Jesus" is coming back (any millenium now...), are clueless about the constructs and literalized Myths that are the "foundation" for their wretched legalistic dogma. If the religionists merge completely with the statists and assume total power, we will once again return to the only real "tribulation" that ever will exist, that abyss of ignorance, barbarity, and societal repression---- the dark ages of the lords of the church-state, and the slavery of serfdom. The "faith-based initiatives", threats to eliminate the filibuster, etc. demonstrate that this is happening......NOW. Bush also wanted to score some points by attending the funeral of John Paul II, who may or may not have been put out of his misery.

 

What remains to be seen, is if we who love Liberty, Honor and Decency have the gonads to be the same kind of patriots our founding fathers were when it comes to standing against the governmental rot of the self-seeking oligarchists and religio-statist tyranny......

 

K

[nightflight]

Good post, Karl.

[pitchu]

If things don't change -- and fast -- your description is certainly the way I see us being robbed of our future, Karl.

[doomguarder]

I also agree with Karl's post.

 

The only way to make these changes is to reinvigorate the electorate. Most people want to see the immigration policy of this nation reexamined and changed to reflect current issues.

[Cerise]

I also agree with Karl's post.

 

The only way to make these changes is to reinvigorate the electorate. Most people want to see the immigration policy of this nation reexamined and changed to reflect current issues.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

But hasn't that been an issue for a while now? If the last four years haven't made it vitally important to the American people to reexamine immigration policy (and probably a whole bunch of other policies) to reflect current issues, what's going to prompt them into doing so now?

[chefranden]

Thats very generous to give your house away.  Nice of them to let you stay in thier house that you gave them. Personnaly, I don't feel guilty about what my ancestors did way back when.  Was it wrong?  Maybe...but I wasn't there and neither were you, and neither were the ones coming across the border.

 

Your ancestors and mine were illegal immigrants in their day and the original people tried their best to throw them out after our ancestors abused their hospitality. What's good for the goose is good for the gander as me old grandpappy would say. If you don't care, why should this wave of immigrants care.

 

What you don't know is that you have common cause with them. While you stamp your foot and point, the elite rich that are robbing them are also robbing you. The robber barons are pointing at you and laughing all the way to the bank while you fight the immigrants for the few baron dropped crumbs.

 

Enjoy.

[chefranden]

I have no problem with legal immigration, when done in moderation and by the book, but the massive amount of illegal aliens is a major problem. This country can not absorb the population of the whole Planet.

 

Bush doesn't give a damn, because as has been said, they are a cheap source of labor, to be exploited at the hands of the many-tentacled oligarchy, and its power structure. If the workers in other countries were paid a decent living wage, they would have no reason to come here. Bush didn't even stop Levi from taking their manufacturing out of Texas. NAFTA, etc were bad, but they were bad for a reason. Coupling NAFTA, etc, with job exporting and illegal aliens, the middle class will eventually be destroyed as the wage base deteriorates, leaving two groups: the top 5% of Bush (or as Bush put it in Moore's F911 clip, "the haves and the have mores") and the bottom 95% serfs. That is already happening...just look at how much it costs to even run for office, etc.

 

The insane fiscal irresponsibility of the current administration has left this country on the brink of financial collapse, with record National debt, now over $8 trillion (8 million million) of which a large portion is held by China and Saudi Arabia, leaving us at the mercy of those who we borrow over $1 billion/day from. The corporations (who long for the "good old days" of the robber-barons, with six 14-hour work days and workers living in little shacks right next to the plant....they've got it over-seas, now, thanks to the Bush administration, it's time for it to happen again here) and the oligarchists are getting everything they can (tax cuts, graft, etc.), before the shit hits the fan, in a mess that, when the engineered collapse happens, will make the misery of 1929 look like a mild dip.

 

In preparation for all this are the National ID cards, GPS ID chips, the "Patriot" Acts, color alerts, the "war on terror" (notice how there hasn't been much about Osama lately....maybe it's because dubya used to be a business partner of Osama's brother, Salem who died in a "freak accident" in .....Texas)(also note that terrorists can easily come in through Mexico, but it's worth the risk for the rest: those cheap maids, butlers, farm hands and kitchen "help" coming across the border to work under the table for Bush's rich pals), the new bankruptcy laws, which will pave the way for return to debtor's prison, abrogation of the Constitution, election fraud etc, etc.

 

Waiting in the wings for the fascist statists to assume total control, are the religionists. The easily-manipulated-by-fear sheeple, who voted for Bush because the church told them "how to vote without sinning", and because "Jesus" is coming back (any millenium now...), are clueless about the constructs and literalized Myths that are the "foundation" for their wretched legalistic dogma. If the religionists merge completely with the statists and assume total power, we will once again return to the only real "tribulation" that ever will exist, that abyss of ignorance, barbarity, and societal repression---- the dark ages of the lords of the church-state, and the slavery of serfdom. The "faith-based initiatives", threats to eliminate the filibuster, etc. demonstrate that this is happening......NOW. Bush also wanted to score some points by attending the funeral of John Paul II, who may or may not have been put out of his misery.

 

What remains to be seen, is if we who love Liberty, Honor and Decency have the gonads to be the same kind of patriots our founding fathers were when it comes to standing against the governmental rot of the self-seeking oligarchists and religio-statist tyranny......

 

K

 

Hear! Hear! Karl for president!

[LadyFeline]

The fact that our borders are standing wide open to any schmuck who just wants to wander in... bothers me. And not just because that wide-open border admits freeloaders and other various rabble (for the most part. I'm sure that some of them come here for legitimate reasons. But too many - in my experience - just come here for free education, medical care, and welfare. I hold nothing but contempt for those people)

 

Why, then? Because that means anybody can just waltz right into the US. Anybody. Terrorists? Check. Drug dealers? Already happening. Murderers? Again, already happening (something like 1 in 5 illegal immigrants in the US is wanted for murder or another violent crime, like assault, armed robbery, or rape. I might be wrong with the stats, but I can double-check...) And, fuck, I'm not even going to go into the whole slavery issue and how our open Western border facilitates the trade in human beings, usually women and children...

 

Do we need to close the borders in our best economic interests? Hell yes. But we need to close them for other, equally important reasons, too.

[Guest Breakerslion]

As I see it, California was a part of Mexico until the US government stole it (new mexico also actually) so if "Mexicans" want to come back to their home I see no problem.

(just a small touch of sarcasm and hatred for the us government included free of charge in the above statement)

 

The real problem isn't mexicans crossing the border and finding employment to better themselves or their families.  The real problem is that the borders are wide open to any "terrorist" who would like easy entrance into the country.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

California belonged to a rather interesting bunch of American Indians (sorry, I don't remember the tribal names, and no, they don't generally prefer to be called Native Americans or any other PC bullshit) before the Spanish began exterminating them and the Yankees finished the job. Do I feel responsible? No. I wasn't born yet. California is what it is, no matter how it got that way. As such, the laws of the land should be enforced, or abolished. The only people that benefit from illegal labor are the elitists that hire them to work the fields and households while depressing wages, and the desperate store and restaurant owners that know they are breaking the law, but feel they need that edge against excessive taxation that might otherwise force them to close. This exploitation benefits no one in the long run, but the exploitation on the Mexican side of the border is even worse. Myabe we should invade. I hear there's oil....

[pitchu]

What you don't know is that you have common cause with them.  While you stamp your foot and point, the elite rich that are robbing them are also robbing you.  The robber barons are pointing at you and laughing all the way to the bank while you fight the immigrants for the few baron dropped crumbs.

 

Enjoy.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Thanks, Chef, for stating so clearly my earlier point about how our "rulers" love to do their dirty work against us all while hiding behind the smokescreen of made-up enmities. It's in the interest of those in power to have us all going at one anothers' throats, instead of our stepping back, seeing the situation for what it truly is, and organizing together against our common conscienceless enemy.

[Brutal Brian]

Well I am certainly not going to get technical on this issue to a point, but I too think that Schwartzenegger and O'Reilly are correct in their POV's. There certainly are too many illegal immigrants here as it is. ANd yes they do have the right to make a border run, just as we have the right to pack their asses right back where they came from.

 

In other issues like this though, like the thing about being racist for demanding action for the business of more border patrols in such also boils up the argument of a white person not being able to call a black person a nigger without being called racist, while black people can call each other that and call white people honkeys and not be considered such. Note that I am not condoning people do such a thing merely just bringing up the issue.

 

So, if we want equality and to solve many problems, we have to stop this racial preference shit. Because it is things like this border patrol issue, that a realistic solution is becoming next to impossible.

 

Hope this all makes sense to you.

-Brian

[Guest Vermithrax]

The irony is that the vast majority of Americans are immigrants. Many of you are descended from people who, by any standards, were illegal immigrants. After all, you forcibly displaced the native inhabitants, slaughtering them if necessary.

 

Then, this bunch of opportunistic people arranged things so that just about anyone could come on over to the New World and prosper, except for the blacks, Irish, Chinese and Native Americans. Against all the odds, they prospered too...except for the Native Americans.

 

At some point this bunch of immigrants established a set of rules by which it is decided which immigrants are desirable, and which are not. Despite the fact that states like California, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas and in fact many others have their economies bolstered by so-called illegal immigrants.

 

Think about it. Consider how many of you identify yourselves. Italian-American. Irish-American. African-American. German-American, Asian-American, Hispanic-American. Notice that the American part comes last, and justifiably. Many of you put your country of origin first. Appropriate. Many of you identify yourselves with your country of origin first, and the land of your birth second.

 

But I do find it rather tragic that a country built on immigration now elects to turn its back on it. Plus I find myself wondering why you anti-immigration types unleash your venom on Mexicans. Are there any statistics on how many Canadians are living in this country illegally? I notice that the Minutemen, based in Tombstone, Arizona are proposing expanding their activities to the Canadian border, so clearly someone thinks the waves of Canadians flooding into the United States is a problem.

 

Yeah. I'm being a bit fast and loose with history. And maybe a little tongue-in-cheek.

[Vixentrox]

I think many of us that want to close the border down have nothing against LEGAL immigration. I certainly don't. If someone goes through the proper steps and does the proper paper work, heck yeah, welcome to America!

 

That isn't the case with these people invading the border. Yeah, you could go back in history and say the country was built on immigration, and laws put in place after. But eventually enough is enough. Slavery and only males being able to vote was considered legal and proper on in the early days and I don't hear anyone clammoring to go back to the way it was. Eventually, countries evolve.

[doomguarder]

But hasn't that been an issue for a while now?  If the last four years haven't made it vitally important to the American people to reexamine immigration policy (and probably a whole bunch of other policies) to reflect current issues, what's going to prompt them into doing so now?

 

I think we are. Over the last year or so the border security has come directly into the light. Immigration is one issue among many that directly effect the security of the nation. It is now a major news story. If the minutemen project accomplished anything it was placing this issue square in front of the nation. Love them or hate them, they made the news. In the US, that is the only way to get the TV slaves attention.

 

What you don't know is that you have common cause with them. While you stamp your foot and point, the elite rich that are robbing them are also robbing you. The robber barons are pointing at you and laughing all the way to the bank while you fight the immigrants for the few baron dropped crumbs

 

The robber barons of the modern age are ripping all of us off on so many levels it is staggering. Illegal immigration is part of this, but IMO legal loopholes regarding taxes, environmental issues, accounting practices, monopolization of industries, and collective bargaining (unions) are a far greater problem. All divisive issues play into their hands. Keep the citizens distracted by pumping them full of fear and issues like gay marriage, this is how to keep the US from voting in its best interest. So bills like the one in congress today pass with little fan fair or discussion. National standards for state IDs including RFID chips as part of the standard, that is in the appropriations bill before the senate today. It already passed in the house by a large margin.

I am not interested in the crumbs as much as the influx of unknown people coming across our borders. We do have common interests, and I feel these are best served by a fair but strong immigration policy and a closing down of the border. I do not mind if Mexicans are given an extraordinary number of work visas, at least we know who they are and why they are here in that situation. As a citizen, I do not feel tracking everyone BUT the illegal immigrants will create a safer environment in the US.

 

But I do find it rather tragic that a country built on immigration now elects to turn its back on it.

 

This is mischaracterization. I am very pro immigration, just not illegal immigration. Thousands of people come to the US every year legally to make a better life for themselves and their families. I do not propose an isolationist policy of 0 immigration. I only ask that the laws already on the books are enforced and that the border be secured for national security reasons as much as to stem the tide. It is not only Mexican's who use the border to cross into the US illegally. Also, this keeps the immigrant workers protected under our laws and makes it more difficult for employers to take advantage of them based on their status.

 

Are there any statistics on how many Canadians are living in this country illegally? I notice that the Minutemen, based in Tombstone, Arizona are proposing expanding their activities to the Canadian border, so clearly someone thinks the waves of Canadians flooding into the United States is a problem.

 

Once again it is not all about Canadians or Mexicans, but the sieve like quality of our borders. We do not know who is coming through. How can we if we do not step up the security.

 

 

Think about it. Consider how many of you identify yourselves. Italian-American. Irish-American. African-American. German-American, Asian-American, Hispanic-American. Notice that the American part comes last, and justifiably. Many of you put your country of origin first. Appropriate. Many of you identify yourselves with your country of origin first, and the land of your birth second.

 

Although I do not agree 100% with Teddy on this he makes a good point.

Theodore Roosevelt Advocates Americanism, 1915

I am a good old fashioned American Mutt, and proud of it. British (related to Sir Thomas Moore & PT Barnum), Scandinavian (our lost relative who never knew who he was except the wagon train he was found in was all Scandinavian immigrants), German (indentured servants, who worked there way out of slavery only to be decimated by Sherman’s march to the sea), Native American (notice, no hyphen…Choctaw), Turkish, and Scottish (Armstrong clan). How many hyphens would that take? I am an American. I do not identify myself by my ancestry, although it does affect my perceptions.

 

 

I remain steadfast in my opinion that the border must be secured. This is not racist, it is not anti-immigrant, it is common sense to me. But I see that is not the case for everyone.

 

Regards all.

[Guest Son of Belial]

Then, this bunch of opportunistic people arranged things so that just about anyone could come on over to the New World and prosper, except for the blacks, Irish, Chinese and Native Americans. Against all the odds, they prospered too...except for the Native Americans.

 

Aren't there more Native Americans now than there were then? Are they or are they not allowed to own businesses tax-free? I'm not saying "Well, we made up for killing them by cutting them a tax break..." I'm only saying that there HAS been SOME steps taken to make a way between us. (I'm also not sure if what I just said is true... it's what I've heard. Correct me if I'm wrong.)

 

As far as the whole "We were all illegal immigrants too" thing goes... so what? So my ancestors did something wrong hundreds of years ago, so that gives someone else the right to do something wrong now? That doesn't sound very good. Sounds like the continuation of age-long fueds.

 

Unless this is some sort of legend(which is possible), I had read years ago that they unearthed a skeleton something like 10,000 years old in the US which was identified as being a caucasian. Does that mean that whites were actually here first? So maybe the Indians stole OUR land? I'm not saying I really mean that... I'm just saying that if you want to keep going back in time for justification for things we're doing now, the cycle will never end.

 

"The Germans killed the Jews and the Jews killed the Arabs and the Arabs killed the hostages and that is the news." - Roger Waters

[spamandham]

I say open the flood gates. The main reason immigrants are a problem is because the US is a quasi-socialist state. I don't begrudge anyone wanting to make their lives better, even if they have to commit a few misdemeaners in the process. If they help to destroy leviathon while they're at it, so much the better. If they soak up freebies and don't pay taxes, good for them. Maybe I can learn something from them.

 

BTW, I live in a border state - Texas.

[Guest yoshi]

Let us not forget that - and remember, I am in NO WAY justifiying the murders done by American settlers of old - the Native Americans ALSO descended from immigrants, some through the ice bridge, some through other means (there are Phenocian ruins in parts of America...)

[Guest Vermithrax]

Aren't there more Native Americans now than there were then?

 

How many tribes are there now, compared with the number of tribes in existance before the Europeans invaded?

 

You seem to think numbers are all that matter. That whole cultures have been destroyed during the invasion of the Europeans matters not? Have I charactarized you correctly?

[Flyby Stardancer]

If your of Euro decent, pack your stuff up and go back to what ever country your ancestors came from.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, then where would you want me to go back to? Or could I just stay here? (Mostly European, 1/4 Mexican, and have a great-great-great-great grandmother who was Cherokee.)

 

Seriously, though. I'm divided on the whole illegal immigration issue. I can see it from both sides. Plus, if it weren't for illegal immigration I wouldn't be here. My great-grandfather came here legally, but he brought his wife (my great-grandmother) and their eldest daughter (my great-aunt) over here illegally... Don't think my great grandmother ever became legal (other than being the mother of US citizens... They ended up having something like 9 kids total, and all but the first were born in the US).

[Guest MalaInSe]

(there are Phenocian ruins in parts of America...)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

There are?

 

I've never heard that. Would love more info on it.

 

There is at least one Viking settlement in North America, by the way, and some indication that the Chinese may have made it over at some point (some anchors and things like that).

 

My understanding is that Native Americans are of Asian descent via a prehistoric landbridge. Oh, and the argument about there being more Native Americans now... I've never seen any support for this and if it's true, I think its likely that it's people of Native American descent being referred to. That's like saying there are more people of German descent running around in the U.S. than there were at a certain point. Certainly a true statement, but rather meaningless from a cultural standpoint.