Homosexuality - Sin....??!

[Desert Walker]

And he still hasn't faced up to the actions of the murdering god of death he worships.....

 

Doesn't it BOTHER you what your supposed god has done?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It does at times, but then He shows His reasons.

Mainly, hard, stubborn children require hard, firm lessons and discipline. The thing which occurred in the OT was part of His progressive plan to set the examples and teachings for the generations ahead.

Ever hated your dad as a child for punishing you in a hard way, only to love and respect him more for doing so when you got older?

Precisely the very same thing...

Just on a higher level of understanding. One higher than ourselves.

 

He's put me through many incredibly hardships during my life, which caused me to hate him most of my life as well. But when I finally fully repented and gave Him the needed chance, the pictures of truth and life became exponentially clearer.

 

And I fully love and respect Him for all hardships He has ever placed upon me. Why?

Because it got my attention and turned me around in the direction of heaven.

If He had not driven me into repentence, I would still be walking into the eternal fires of hell without recourse.

And I will forever thank Him for this. He is pure love and understanding. He's just hard because we are hard. Things get much better if we obey Him. Even under continuing hardships, as our lessons continue for us. We are the only one's that make it hard.

Sound crazy?

I thought so too...

Until I truly gave Him a try and learned differently. And when I happen to stumble under my own doubt and rebellion, I work to pick myself up again and continue walking. Because I know from experience that turning back without Him will lead me into the very 'self-imposed' misery I am all too familiar with.

 

He never once said any of this was easy. Not by a long shot.

He only said it was worth it.

Richard.

[Asimov]

It does at times, but then He shows His reasons.

Mainly, hard, stubborn children require hard, firm lessons and discipline.

 

Yes....I always kill and rape my children when they do something wrong.

 

The thing which occurred in the OT was part of His progressive plan to set the examples and teachings for the generations ahead.

 

Right....

Ever hated your dad as a child for punishing you in a hard way, only to love and respect him more for doing so when you got older?

 

My dad wasn't an asshole like your God is. 'nuff said.

[Vixentrox]

My dad didn't kill babies and rip open pregnant women or drown little girls like your god does.....

 

Nor does he threaten eternal torture if I don't return his love.

[Desert Walker]

Asimov, your mind and ears are totally closed to anything I have to say.....

 

Because you yourself are too hard.

Hence the need for softer bridges.

If they cannot be built, they cannot be built. Regardless of your personal feelings of the Lord and God Almighty.

 

Furthermore,

The authority here can give me the title of 'douber' if they wish. That, I cannot control.

But again, aside from the titles I receive from others, I know what I am...

And so does He.

That's all that matters in regards to titles and the assumptions of others.

 

Debate over.

[Vixentrox]

Asimov, your mind and ears are totally closed to anything I have to say.....

 

Because you yourself are too hard.

Hence the need for softer bridges.

If they cannot be built, they cannot be built. Regardless of your personal feelings of the Lord and God Almighty.

Debate over.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You haven't said anything. Funny thing is, your new...you said so yourself. Most of had been Xtians for many years and know what your god is all about since we actually read the bible. All you look at is "god's love" and ignore the actions of your god that show anything BUT love.

[Asimov]

Asimov, your mind and ears are totally closed to anything I have to say.....

 

Because you yourself are too hard.

Hence the need for softer bridges.

If they cannot be built, they cannot be built. Regardless of your personal feelings of the Lord and God Almighty.

Debate over.

 

It didn't even begin.

 

You use the same old tactic of claiming your opponent is "closed" off to your ideas, therefore your refusal to even substantiate ANY of your claims is justified.

 

Bullshit.

[nirrti]

Oh yeah! I love it when Christians tell me their "loving" god is just "disiplining" us like a good father would and we should appreciate it. You know, me and a lot of other people really would've appreciated his "fatherly" intervention when we were being abused as children. I wish he would have fulfilled his fatherly role by protecting his little five-year old daughter from some grown man beating on her and inflicting other kinds of torture to satiate his own pleasure.

 

But of course, when your heavenly father's so busy punishing people for such sins as loving someone of the same sex or wiping out women and children at whim, I guess he doesn't have time for such trivial matters.

 

By the way, Do Not tell me how god lets people go through certain things in life. Any human father who knows someone his hurting his daughter and does nothing would be a criminal. I expect nothing less, even if that father is a supernatural being.

[Desert Walker]

It didn't even begin. 

 

You use the same old tactic of claiming your opponent is "closed" off to your ideas, therefore your refusal to even substantiate ANY of your claims is justified.

 

Bullshit.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Your right brother. It did not begin. It wasn't allowed to....

 

The bridge collapsed as it usually does.

I said that too.

[Asimov]

Your right brother. It did not begin. It wasn't allowed to....

 

The bridge collapsed as it usually does.

I said that too.

 

More bullshit. You made a claim, I asked you to back up the claim:

 

 

This is simply one of the many written laws of the Christain faith written for us to do our best to follow.

 

Really? So if it were a law in the bible to kill black people...would you do it? Because there's a law in the bible which states to kill homosexuals.

 

You claimed that being against homosexuality is a law in the bible. I asked you to prove it. You did not. Don't blame me for your inability to back up your own claims.

[Desert Walker]

And I was working on doing just that. And then I thought to myself, "Why bother adding more boards to a rapidly collapsing bridge?

If I stay upon a collapsing bridge too long, I may fall into the ravine of fog myself."

 

So I stepped back and watched the bridge fall upon the historical heap below.

 

Some Christians do indeed twist even the written truth around to fit their views and desires...

 

Just as non (ex) Christians do.

[Asimov]

And I was working on doing just that. And then I thought to myself, "Why bother adding more boards to a rapidly collapsing bridge?

If I stay upon a collapsing bridge too long, I may fall into the ravine of fog myself."

 

So I stepped back and watched the bridge fall upon the historical heap below.

 

....

 

I'm not interested in building bridges. Your worldview is wrong, if you think I should "soften it up", just because you don't want to face the facts, then suck it up and take your ball home. Keep spouting your repetitive and unoriginal excuses, and this is all you're gonna get.

[Desert Walker]

And this is exactly why this old battle rage on endlessly.

Thank you for your assistance on showing how and why this is so true.

[Asimov]

And this is exactly why this old battle rage on endlessly.

Thank you for your assistance on showing how and why this is so true.

 

It's not a battle, Desert Walker. It hasn't gone on endlessly. Your side never had a leg to stand on, because of what you are saying right now. People are realising your bullshit, and moving on.

[nirrti]

Some Christians do indeed twist even the written truth around to fit their views and desires...

 

Just as non (ex) Christians do.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

WTF? Can't you fundy Christians get it through your head that in order to legitimize the bible you have to twist it, turn it, do gymnastics all over what's written in it to justify 85% of the horrible injustices that it's blanketed with?

 

We're not "twisting" anything. We're just seeing the bible with both our eyes and brain

wereas Christians have to wear blinders to protect themselves from the notion that maybe what they're being taught is not all valid.

 

But you all are so scared of doing that you'll demonize any of your opponents to not have to question yourselves.

[Desert Walker]

WTF?  Can't you fundy Christians get it through your head that in order to legitimize the bible you have to twist it, turn it, do gymnastics all over what's written in it to justify 85% of the horrible injustices that it's blanketed with?

 

We're not "twisting" anything.  We're just seeing the bible with both our eyes and brain

wereas Christians have to wear blinders to protect themselves from the notion that maybe what they're being taught is not all valid.

 

But you all are so scared of doing that you'll demonize any of your opponents to not have to question yourselves.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And we shall be known by our fruits.

Accusations, hateful remarks, foul language, and downright self-centeredness and zero open-minded consideration and respect of what others also believe. Round and round we go. It never seems to stop.

But I'll give this just one final try.....

 

You want me to show you where in the bible it says homosexuality is a sin and is wrong.

Here's a challenge for you.

Show me where it says it is not a sin and is right.

Without slamming me and my PERSONAL and freedom of the faith and God I follow. With a clean and respectful tongue. I respect a gay person as I do any other. I just do not agree with this person on this one issue. And I went to great lengths to express this, but the onslaught continued unheeded. Just because others here did not agree. Since when is disgreeing with another hateful or condemning???

 

Where are the fruits that you seek from me?

[nirrti]

And we shall be known by our fruits.

Accusations, hateful remarks, foul language, and downright self-centeredness and zero open-minded consideration and respect of what others also believe. Round and round we go. It never seems to stop.

But I'll give this just one final try.....

 

You want me to show you where in the bible it says homosexuality is a sin and is wrong.

Here's a challenge for you. 

Show me where it says it is not a sin and is right.

Without slamming me and my PERSONAL and freedom of the faith and God I follow. With a clean and respectful tongue. I respect a gay person as I do any other. I just do not agree with this person on this one issue. And I went to great lengths to express this, but the onslaught continued unheeded. Just because others here did not agree. Since when is disgreeing with another hateful or condemning???

 

Where are the fruits that you seek from me?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

First of all, I'm a grown woman and this is an open forum so don't come telling me how to speak.

 

Second of all, telling me that homosexuality is wrong because the bible says so is moot point with me since it also condones slavery. And me being a black woman, you can say I'm rather sensitive to that kind of thing. Not to mention I do not believe in the bible as the word of god and you might as well be quoting "Mein Kemf".

 

I do believe that everyone has the right to live their life as they choose as long as it's not hurting anyone and I have yet to see proof that being homosexual hurts anyone other than the crap they get from folks like you who want to run everyones life whether they like it or not.

 

And what I posted is mild compared to the anger, wrath, and utter brutality God show in the bible repeatedly. So why don't you demand the same respect from God you demand from human beings. Oh wait! You're too scared because you think god will throw you in hell in a second, right? Just for disagreeing with him.

 

You asked me to show you good fruit. You need to demand no less from religion.

[Amethyst]

Evidence for homosexuality gene

 

A genetic analysis of 40 pairs of homosexual brothers has uncovered a region on the X chromosome that appears to contain a gene or genes for homosexuality.^When analyzing the pedigrees of homosexual males, the researcheres found evidence that the trait has a higher likelihood of being passed through maternal genes.^This led them to search the X chromosome for genes predisposing to homosexuality.^The researchers examined the X chromosomes of pairs of homosexual brothers for regions of DNA that most or all had in common.^Of the 40 sets of brothers, 33 shared a set of five markers in the q28 region of the long arm of the X chromosome.^The linkage has a LOD score of 4.0, which translates into a 99.5% certainty that there is a gene or genes in this area that predispose males to homosexuality.^The chief researcher warns, however, that this one site cannot explain all instances of homosexuality, since there were some cases where the trait seemed to be passed paternally.

 

This is just the first one I found.

 

I would say that a 99.5% chance of anything means it is pretty darn likely! Even with a .05% chance of error, it is clear to me that it is genetic in the vast majority of people who have it. How can something be a sin if someone doesn't have free will to choose it? They are born differently. I can't see how it can be made any clearer.

 

You want to know good fruit? What comes of being born differently and choosing a loving relationship, rather than being alone for the rest of one's life? Love. Families, possibly, if they are living in a state that doesn't discriminate against gays adopting. Trust, commitment, communication, peace, tolerance.

 

What comes of prejudice? Fear, anger, violence, war, etc.

 

That choice should be a no-brainer.

[Guest jdrobins2000]

26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

 

To start, for those not familiar with me, I am an ex-Christian, for two years now. I will admit that I have not always been accepting of the gay lifestyle, but really what can you expect given the culture (Christian and otherwise) that I grew up in. However, at no point was I ever anything but kind and loving to any homosexual individuals I knew, as my homosexual family members and co-workers could attest to. I did believe it was wrong, only because it came as part of the package deal with believing the Bible was true. The only difference now is that I no longer am forced to believe it is wrong because of my belief system, and so now I am very much open to the idea that it is just the way they were born. That's the way it appears to me.

 

That said, I understand where Christians are coming from when they say that homosexuality is a sin. The verse from Romans seems to indicate pretty strongly that it is a sin. Some Christians may be looking for a reason to support their hatred of homosexuals, but for some (many?), it is just a byproduct of their belief system.

 

Here's my post on the previous thread where this topic started:

I was just pointing out that lengthy debate on that topic is not likely to be very fruitful. To me, when I was a Christian, it just came as part of the package, and in no way did it contribute to my evidence for belief. Ironically, though, to deny it would be to severely weaken the integrity of belief, since that would require denying the Bible's authority. So, it turns out to be a red herring, since it really does not support the belief system, in all but maybe some rare cases (of Christians who think it does support it in some way).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Although, to the Christian, this should be a red flag that something is amiss with the Christian belief system. It appears homosexuality is something people are born with, that the individual did not ask for and should not be asked to repress. Apparently, it is who they are.

 

In the same regard, I myself found it to be a problem that if God created everything and the laws that govern it, then he was responsible for everything that ever happened, including my so-called sins. I know the line on that is "he gives us free will", which sounds fine and good at first, until you ask yourself "How?"

 

If we are to have truly free will, then you must posit a mechanism whereby that free-will is implemented, where decisions are made not based upon activities in the brain (which I believe they are), but instead based upon something else which somehow receives input from the brain, makes a decision independent of the brain, then sends output of the decision back to the brain. Otherwise, it is controlled by natural laws, which God would then be responsible for, and would be punishing behavior he created.

 

Unfortunately science has not reached the point where it can explain the decision making capacities of the brain to the point where it eliminates the necessity of any external mechanism, and shows that it is sufficient within itself. But to me, there is no reason to expect that it will not, at this point. If this is shown, then it must radically alter the Christians view of what sin is, because at that point behavior would be a matter of pure biology, in which case "choice" is illusory.

 

In the meantime, I observe that that is truly the case, without having hard conclusive proof. My own behavior (and "sin") seems to be affected by my body chemistry, more than it ever was by prayer or the like. I found that while I was a Christian, try and pray as I might, I could not lick certain sins. However, when I improved my eating, sleeping, and exercise habits, suddenly they were almost not a problem at all. That struck me as extremely suspicious.

 

The conclusion I came to is that everything operates according to natural laws... I opened my eyes and looked around for myself, not letting others tell me what I saw. I saw no evidence of a God actively at work, but instead, I saw things unfolding exactly as I would expect if there were no God involved, but just natural law. That's the way I see it, anyway.

[nirrti]

Oh by the way, I don't intend on sabatoging your "personal freedom". But that happens to be what you're doing when you tell other people how to run their religious and sex lives. If you want to know what I think, don't get all self righteous and make baseless accusations about my character when my answer isn't what you want to hear.

[Desert Walker]

There is no logical debate here.

Only short-sighted blindness of a stern, one-sided position which only twists and conforms the view on the opposite shore...

Why do you peole call this a Christian debate section, when it is clearly a Christian hate section. Is this a lure of sorts for a way to impress and entertain each other in a glee and dance of totally blind apostacy and concreted ear canals?

 

Where is there debate when the Christian faith and God is only slammed and blasphemed purely because it doesn't meet one's desires and pleasure?

Where is the debate when one screams a reply to the truth presented?

 

Where is the very same fruit you seek from these Christians?

Would it be better if they sang the truth an immoral, insulting, blaspheous, and foul language (meaning cussing and bland, nasty remarks)?

 

God led the Jews OUT of slavery and into freedom!

He judged an entire nation on this!

[Guest jdrobins2000]

WTF?  Can't you fundy Christians get it through your head that in order to legitimize the bible you have to twist it, turn it, do gymnastics all over what's written in it to justify 85% of the horrible injustices that it's blanketed with?

 

We're not "twisting" anything.  We're just seeing the bible with both our eyes and brain

wereas Christians have to wear blinders to protect themselves from the notion that maybe what they're being taught is not all valid.

 

But you all are so scared of doing that you'll demonize any of your opponents to not have to question yourselves.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Actually, DW, nirrti is quite on target and not out of line at all. It does require a bunch of gymnastics, which I managed to keep up until recently. Keep your eyes open and be aware of this as you walk in your new faith... I think you will see it eventually. Don't let people tell you what you see... always look and decide for yourself.

[Vixentrox]

God led the Jews OUT of slavery and into freedom!

He judged an entire nation on this!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Who made them slaves to begin with? And who INTENTIONALLY hardened pharoe's heart just so he could COLD BLOODED MURDER innocent children?

[Amethyst]

There is no logical debate here.

 

Funny, I could've sworn I just posted scientific evidence proving you wrong. You haven't proven ME, or anyone else here, wrong yet.

 

Only short-sighted blindness of a stern, one-sided position which only twists and conforms the view on the opposite shore...

 

I suppose, if you call the cold, hard facts twisting and turning. I call it proof. Maybe you should look for that before you believe in something that is a myth, and a badly written myth, at that. Most of Christianity was plagiarized from other sources. At least, do the research on a religious cult before you join it.

[Asimov]

Show me where it says it is not a sin and is right.

 

 

Common Christian tactic, shift the burden of proof.

[Panther]

I am only speaking out against what I see that leads to great evil and violence.  If you saw something that leads to great evil and violence, would you not speak out??? 

 

You Christians say you believe in love, but you call being born differently a "sin."  To you, being human is a "sin." 

 

I cannot fathom a deity who would torture people for all of eternity simply for having been born.  That is ultimate cruelty to me.  And yes, I grew up brainwashed--and today I cannot believe some of the things I believed as an innocent child.  That people go to hell simply for being born in other cultures that worship other deities, or for having been born gay, (and yes, there is plenty of evidence that they are but you people choose to ignore it).  That isn't the kind of being I would want to love, let alone worship.

 

You don't even know me in real life.  I am a very kind, nice person.  But I will stand up for what I believe is right...and hating people for having been born with a genetic variation isn't right.  Why can't you just admit that that particular religious belief is wrong?

 

I have nothing against moderate Christians in general.  What I do have against is people who use religion as an excuse to hate others.  The "I just hate the sin" is a cop-out.  It really, really is.  I find it sad that you can't see that, and that you hate me because I believe in tolerance and peace and loving others for who they are.

 

This is exactly why I left, because of people like you who call people like me a sinner...because I believe in love and not hate.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Amythest, I totally agree with you 100%......damn, you said this really good!