One Verse At A Time...

[scotter]

 

Sub Zero, if you think you know more than everyone else, then you are emotionally disturbed. Can't you see that is a red flag? Why would anyone here try to convince you of a lie? Maybe everyone here isn't ALL right, but they can't be ALL wrong either! If, as I think... as your name suggest... away from the flames of hell at sub zero, you are rigidly frozen because your fear of hell keeps you from seeing valid points! Can't you see living in such a fearful state of mind is hell? How can ALL the scientist, ALL the history books, ALL the philosophers of mythology ALL be wrong and you're the only one right? Sure there are some great messages in the Bible, yet don't you think Buddha, Confucious, Suffis, scientists, Atheists, and others have inspiring messages also? If you were born in India... do you think Jesus would be your divine revelation? Would God have to throw you away in a burning pit for being born in India under the influences there? What kind of God is that? Please THINK for once out of fear of some stupid eternal hell!

 

I am not saying I AM RIGHT. I am saying Christ is right, nothing I have said is what I know it is what is said in the Bible and what Christ taught, etc.

 

-

 

Here is the thing, people choose NOT to accept God on earth, when they die they go to a place without God which is Hell. God is only given them what they want.

 

Is Hell as real as the Sabbath?

 

Jesus said, “Man is not made for Sabbath, but Sabbath is made for man.”

Likewise, Hell is made for man, man is not made for Hell.

 

When Jesus was talking to Pharisees in the Gospels, Jesus was emphasizing the spirit of kindness, the relationship between God and humanity, instead of blind observance and dead fixation on interpretations.

 

Did Jesus say something about eternal Hell Fire? If I want to faithfully exercise Jesus’ teachings, I am not deterred by what you think Jesus said, I am not deterred by eternal hell fire. Someday if I face Jesus in person and Jesus asks me, “You don’t believe eternal hell fire?” I would look Jesus into the eyes with respect and say, “Teacher, I am faithfully exercising the true spirit of your teachings.”

 

If you manage to believe and act out that the spirit of love in Christianity is more than the fixated dogmatic eternal hell fire, you are a true follower of Jesus. If you insist the fear and threat of eternal hell fire on yourself and other people, you have become the Pharisees that your Gospels detest.

[Ouroboros]

Anyway, Serene, I understood your first statement, but the second got me confounded...

 

Thats because there is a deeper meaning behind my words. LOL...

 

Of course you know I'm kidding, right? You one of the top comedians at Ex-C? Making light of the typical excuse apologists use in order to explain away why something doesn't mean what it really says.

Oh, I know you were joking, but my dirty mind came up with a come-back that is not fit for public display, so I had to say something...

[Amanda]

 

 

Hi HanSolo! I agree that the Bible is not inspired by a ghost god, yet it is inspired by the essence of beauty to be found in all things... like a sunset, a flower, a father hugging his son, etc.. The OT was written by practically barbarians coming out of a nomadic lifestyle trying to usher in a new stable civilization. The NT was yet reaching for a higher level. All written by man, inspired to reach a new higher level of altruistic thinking... that's all. No one is perfect. However, I looked at these verses you were referring and it seems to say something different to me... AND, it may have a larger message for Sub Zero, and one I wish I would of seen years ago myself!

 

It looks like it is speaking of the religous right of those times (circumcision=many literal/fundamentalist Pharisees), much like today, and how they lack compassion and cut down everyone... much like the religous right (maybe Sub Zero?) does today of even their own. How this ingenuous attitude is wrong and lacks rational thinking! These verses speak of retaliation to this; much like the ExChristians do also, to the religous right of today! (same situation) What I found surprising is that those stories of Noah's Ark, Adam and Eve, and such... are listed as just fables here... not literal occurrences! Right here it says it... in the NT!

 

Titus 1:10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: 11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake. 12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies. 13 This witness is true. Wherefore * * * rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; 14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth. 15 Unto the pure all things are pure *: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

 

Verse 14 sounds like what everyone says here, not giving literal interpretations of fables, and not giving what is clearly 'man made, self serving laws' any credibility... because it is clearly untrue! See, I don't see the people here as having their mind and conscience defiled... just the opposite! Doesn't verse 15 seem like the fundamentalist mentality to you too?

 

If there's a chance that you're wrong, then there's a chance you're wrong about Christ being right too.

You could also consider that some people are wrong in what they think Christ says.

[NotBlinded]

You know, as others have noticed also, sub never seems to know where anything is in the bible. I think it is bullshit. Maybe it is his sick way of getting us to read the bible...like there is some reward for him to get us to do this.

 

I no longer want to waste my good energy on this person, but I do have plenty of negative energy I could share with him.

[Asimov]

I think it's time for a song:

 

If I were God there would be no explicit sex on T.V.

Like little Opie eating pie when he made it with Aunt Bea

 

If I were God thou shall not worship false Billy Idols

And thou shall add the Book Of Flavor Flav to the Bible

Thou shall make fun of Hindus thou shall not make a "Speed 2"

If I were God that's what I'd do Heavens no

 

Hell yeah

Hell yeah

Hell yeah

Hell yeah

 

If I were God I'd get a bunch of slaves to do everything

Norwegian lesbians that feed me grapes and know how to sing

 

If I were God thou shall not wear tube socks with Flip-Flops

Thou shall sit and thou shall spin thou shall even wife swap

Thou shall resist the Olsen Twins, thou shall not cut "Footloose"

If I were God that's what I'd do, Heavens no

 

Hell yeah

Hell yeah

Hell yeah

Hell yeah

 

And when they nail my pimpled ass to the cross

I'll tell them I found Jesus that should throw them off

He goes by the name Jesus and steals hubcaps from cars

Oh Jesus can I borrow your crowbar?

To pry these God damn nails out they're beginning to hurt

Crucified and all I got was this lousy T-shirt

"I Can't Believe It's Not Butter!" I'll sing as I'm flogged

Yeah that's what I would do if I were God

So vote for me for Savior and you'll go to Heaven

Your lame duck Lord is like Kevin Spacey in "Seven"

With creepy threats of H-E-Double-Hockey-Stick

You just can't teach an old God new tricks

But would I be a good Messiah with my low self-esteem?

If I don't believe in myself would that be blasphemy?

Just sport some crummy "holier than thou" facade

Yeah that's what I would do if I were God

[NotBlinded]

Anyway, Serene, I understood your first statement, but the second got me confounded...

 

Thats because there is a deeper meaning behind my words. LOL...

 

Of course you know I'm kidding, right? You one of the top comedians at Ex-C? Making light of the typical excuse apologists use in order to explain away why something doesn't mean what it really says.

Hey...I resemble those remarks!

 

But, it's usually deeper than the apologists can go. They are only swimming on the surface and when they try to dive, they crack their head on the rock of reason and float back to the surface.

[Ouroboros]

I KNEW exactly what you would be thinking...thats what I was shooting for.

 

Damn! That means you're omniscient too! Hail Serene, the Profit sent by the Holy Cute Bunny!

 

Sorry. End of my diversion of the thread... *Hans trying to get a grip on himself*... Keep on forgetting it's the Colossal-Seum. "There's a colossal ... Yeah! I see-um."

[Ouroboros]

Hi HanSolo! I agree that the Bible is not inspired by a ghost god, yet it is inspired by the essence of beauty to be found in all things...

We're on a similar path.

 

But just a correction, when I said "ghost hand" I meant more of a "spirit", "ghost" etc leading a medium to write something, called mediumistic automatism, or channeling. In such a case God could have had the Bible written to 100% accuracy.

 

I do think the humans wish to believe partly (not only) comes from the awe and inspiration they find in nature. The Romans in the Bible alludes to this "need" when it makes the claim that the sublime feeling nature gives us would also be the proof God must exist. The conclusion, of course, I disagree with, but it show that many have looked at nature and found it to inspire them to think about a god and existence.

 

 

Titus 1:10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: 11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake. 12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies. 13 This witness is true. Wherefore * * * rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; 14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth. 15 Unto the pure all things are pure *: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

Girl! Have you come a long way or what? That was new to me, I never thought of that part, but you're absolutely right. Paul considered the Jewish religion based on fables! So who's right now? The OT, NT or Paul?

 

You do bring up new and interesting questions Amanda.

[Amanda]

That was new to me, I never thought of that part, but you're absolutely right. Paul considered the Jewish religion based on fables! So who's right now? The OT, NT or Paul?

 

HanSolo, I think they are all right... just in need of given proper perspective! IMO, there is a moral to these fables/mythologies... and it's the literal interpretation of these stories that were/are leading people down the wrong path. Just as are the literal interpretations of these laws too, and not the meaning behind them. I think the initial story tellers of those stories knew they were fables, and would be surprised that they came to be viewed otherwise! They were to impart a needed lesson for those times! The NT was probably a select group of social revolutionist, like those here, that wanted to get things back on track with REASON. Maybe we should come up with the Ultra Revised Testament bringing a newly needed demension of clarity on the whole book for the new millenias? You've got to consider that they were ExJews who inspired the NT, and we are ExChristians... seems to reason to me!

 

BTW, if you would have shown me that verse of Jewish fables many, many months ago... I would have probably made up my mind of Noah's Ark a lot faster!

[Amanda]

In Messianic circles they apply both Jesus speaking to pharisees and Paul here as condemning the Talmud Laws, not the OT "scriptures". This is why you will not find to many Messianic Jews sects, eating any differently than a practicing Jew. The Talmud has a very very LEGAL hand-washing rituals and this is what Messianic believers are very firm in understanding as what Jesus was condemning in Mark.

 

Here is a bit of the ritual according to Talmud requirements.

 

Basically Torah Observant Messianics make a very convincing argument using the OT to interpret the new that Jesus was not condemning nor giving permission to break the food laws, but saying it doesn't matter if your hands are dirty, or if what you're eating gets dirty from your hands. In other words...screw the Talmud, it isn't from God but from men.

 

The Talmud is seen as holier than Torah, when you know this, it adds an interesting perspective on what Jesus supposedly was going up against.

 

Again...just playing devils advocate, it really makes no difference to me.

 

SAA... that is very interesting. So I'm curious just as to the ambiance of the climate during this period of time. These Messianic laws even dictated how to wash your hands? They were a bit obsessive with cleanliness, righteousness, and made laws for EVERYTHING? How would you equate that mentality with the fundamentalists today?

[Ouroboros]

What happened to SubZ? I was hoping for another clever answer for my question about the philosophical Paul!

[Fweethawt]

The only problem here Fwee is that those punches should be going over his head and never making contact. Yes...that was mean of me.

At least your comment wasn't along the lines of the reptile-serpent-satan-Donkey Kong-ape-evilution connection that I was expecting someone else to make.

[Guest sub_zer0]

Joh 14:12 LITV Indeed, I tell you truly, the one believing into Me, the works which I do, that one shall do also, and greater than these he will do, because I go to My Father.

 

The specific "works" (Gr. Ergon) of Christ mentioned here were limited to a small geographical area and to a specific people. The disciple's works however and all believers in His name would extend worldwide in their affect on people. In that way they will do greater works.

[Fweethawt]

Wow!

 

There's just so much one can do with the lack of specifics in the Bible, ain't there?

[Guest sub_zer0]

Titus 1:10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: 11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake. 12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies. 13 This witness is true. Wherefore * * * rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; 14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth. 15 Unto the pure all things are pure *: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

 

Girl! Have you come a long way or what? That was new to me, I never thought of that part, but you're absolutely right. Paul considered the Jewish religion based on fables! So who's right now? The OT, NT or Paul?

 

You do bring up new and interesting questions Amanda.

 

It is not Paul who writes Titus, but Titus does. The Jewish religion is not based on fables, if you payed attention to the whole passage you would realize Titus is speaking about the Jews who pervert the religion. He clearly states an example:

 

Titus 1:16They profess to know God, but by their deeds they deny Him, being detestable and disobedient and worthless for any good deed.

 

Wow!

 

There's just so much one can do with the lack of specifics in the Bible, ain't there?

 

Yes there is, because if you looked up the word yourself in its original language, the works in John 14:12 is represented by the word ERGON. In Greek that means:

 

2041. ergon er'-gon from a primary (but obsolete) ergo (to work); toil (as an effort or occupation); by implication, an act:--deed, doing, labour, work.

 

Obviously it is not miracles or the like, but rather hard work and good deeds.

[Fweethawt]

Obviously it is not miracles or the like, but rather hard work and good deeds.

Yes, the bible is clear that it "obviously" isn't talking about "miracles and the like". And we are all aware that the spreading of The Word™ is done with "hard work and good deeds".

 

Yes, it is all too obvious.

[crazy-tiger]

Titus 1:10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: 11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake. 12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies. 13 This witness is true. Wherefore * * * rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; 14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth. 15 Unto the pure all things are pure *: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

 

Girl! Have you come a long way or what? That was new to me, I never thought of that part, but you're absolutely right. Paul considered the Jewish religion based on fables! So who's right now? The OT, NT or Paul?

 

You do bring up new and interesting questions Amanda.

 

It is not Paul who writes Titus, but Titus does. The Jewish religion is not based on fables, if you payed attention to the whole passage you would realize Titus is speaking about the Jews who pervert the religion. He clearly states an example:

 

Titus 1:16They profess to know God, but by their deeds they deny Him, being detestable and disobedient and worthless for any good deed.

 

Wow!

 

There's just so much one can do with the lack of specifics in the Bible, ain't there?

 

Yes there is, because if you looked up the word yourself in its original language, the works in John 14:12 is represented by the word ERGON. In Greek that means:

 

2041. ergon er'-gon from a primary (but obsolete) ergo (to work); toil (as an effort or occupation); by implication, an act:--deed, doing, labour, work.

 

Obviously it is not miracles or the like, but rather hard work and good deeds.

[SkepticOfBible]

Obviously it is not miracles or the like, but rather hard work and good deeds.

 

So did when Jesus is talking about the works than he did, is he refering to the hard work and good deeds?or is he talking about Miracles?

 

Joh 14:12 LITV Indeed, I tell you truly, the one believing into Me, the works which I do, that one shall do also, and greater than these he will do, because I go to My Father.

 

The specific "works" (Gr. Ergon) of Christ mentioned here were limited to a small geographical area and to a specific people.

 

Once again you are adding mental qualifiers to the verse, it is quite clear which says "one believing into Me will do greater works", not "ones, who are limited to this area, believing into Me

 

There is no indication in the promise that this is limited to a small geographical area and to a specific people.

 

If you want to say this promise is for the particular people, then I suppose that every promise that Jesus made regarding "Believe me and get Eternal life" would also be limited to a small geographical area and to a specific people.

 

 

 

If it is directed towards a specific people, then why do you say that the bible is for everybody.

 

Once again it is you who decides who this verse is for and who is not for?

[SkepticOfBible]

Here is the thing, people choose NOT to accept God on earth, when they die they go to a place without God which is Hell. God is only given them what they want.

 

And do people want to be tortured in hell forever!!!!!!!

 

John 3:36

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.

 

Rev. 20:15,

"And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

 

Matt. 25:46,

"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

 

Rev. 14:9-11,

"And another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or upon his hand, 10he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11"And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

 

Rev 21:8

But the fearful, and unbelieving, ...shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death

 

 

The above verses are courtesy of CARM website.

 

So once again "True" christians like you and CARM dudes can't agree about such a fundamental doctrine.

 

One of you is lying then!!!1

 

 

 

http://www.carm.org/uni/eternal_hell.htm

Some believe that the fires of hell are symbolic and/or temporal. But the following verses show that they are not.

Matt. 3:12 says, "And His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire." (See also Luke 3:17.)

Mark 9:43 says, "And if your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire."

 

The word "unquenchable" is "asbestos" in the Greek. According to the enhanced Strong's lexicon, it means "unquenchable, the eternal hell fire to punish the damned."

.....

Is hell eternal? Yes it is. Are its fires without end? Yes they are. Is it a pleasant doctrine to discuss? Not really. But, hell is real. This is all the more reason to preach the gospel. Jesus said,

"And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire," (Matt. 18:8).

 

[SkepticOfBible]

Yes there is, because if you looked up the word yourself in its original language, the works in John 14:12 is represented by the word ERGON. In Greek that means:

 

Why do I look it up in the orginal wording?Isn't your god capable of inspiring the "perfect" translation.

 

It seems then you god did a very poor job of communicating his message to humans.

 

Apparently your God also needs lots of apologists to explain to the masses what he means.

 

English Bible translations are supposed to be done by "experts" and are presented in the mainstream Bible that anyone can read.

 

If the translations are not accurate, then you can toss out the English Bible and all the baggage that goes with it.

[mmccaskill]

I like how zero's experiment is progressing. Don't you?

[Amanda]

I like how zero's experiment is progressing. Don't you?

Ummmm, errr.... NO!

 

Rub it in Mmccaskill... looks like some of us here don't catch on as fast as you guys over there!

 

However, I guess this site lets people like this continue just to endorse to those here... to see how illogical that mindset becomes when frozen rigid from the fear of a stupid concept of an eternal hell somewhere floating in a 5th dimension or something!

 

Thanks for the multitude of insights though! And I thought Sub Zero was just slow to come to his senses over just the time here.... however, if he was the same way with you guys over there too... I guess he will die thinking he knows the mind of God explicitly! Wow, I guess he thinks he's smarter than Einstien and Carl Sagan too! I suppose it's like the Rip Van Winkle effect... he'll spend all of his life in a dream nightmare.

 

Glad to see you stick around Mmccaskill... we can use you here. :wink:

[Ouroboros]

Joh 14:12 LITV Indeed, I tell you truly, the one believing into Me, the works which I do, that one shall do also, and greater than these he will do, because I go to My Father.

 

The specific "works" (Gr. Ergon) of Christ mentioned here were limited to a small geographical area and to a specific people. The disciple's works however and all believers in His name would extend worldwide in their affect on people. In that way they will do greater works.

WHAT??? You're twisting your own god's words!!!

 

Prove your assertion. It doesn't say any limits in the verse or in the context.

 

It says "the one believing into Me", and that's it. Don't twist the meaning into something else.

 

The whole chapter of John 14 can be considered a message only to the apostles then. Good, then we know that the Holy Spirit only came to teach THEM, but not you or your pastor or any of the people that have claimed the Holy Spirits guidance...ever.

 

We can also conclude that Jesus only loved them. He would only come back for them. He would only prepare a place in Heaven for them.

 

If you claim "the one believing into Me" only reference the disciples, then maybe the whole NT was only for them too. Any verse that say anything similar was only for them, and not for you, so even the great salvation plan that you believe in is void, null, nought, nothing, gone!!!

 

You're sooooooo screwed. Jesus don't love you, didn't give you a place in Heaven, and the Holy Spirit did not come to you and will never do.

 

So the end result from your interpretation is that there is no salvation for you.

 

How the heck did you find a Swedish book in all this?

 

Translated: "Count on Twist"

 

I have a verse I'd like Sub0 to explain:

 

Tit 1:12-13 KJVA One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies. (13) This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;

 

Paul wrote this, and supposedly Paul was well educated. But how come he totally missed the point of the contradiction that he's referring to? How come did he make a reference to this paradox?

 

To explain my question a bit more detailed:

 

First observation:

 

P1) A Cretian "prophet" made a claim

P2) Cretians are always lying

--------------------------------------------

C) Hence the Cretian Prophet was lying

(and the statement about the Cretians is false, and then the Prophet wasn't lying...)

 

 

Solution to this seemingly paradox (it's not a true paradox, but a contradiction) is that Cretians are just like any other people, they lie and they tell truths. They're not "alway liars".

 

My first question: How come God would let this stupid comment that's void of logic get into his Holy Word?

 

 

Second observation:

 

The philosopher that made the statement "Cretians always lie", Epimenides of Knossos (600 BC), didn't say this as a news flash or a true statement, but as an example of paradoxes and logic. It was not supposed to be taken literally, but as an educational expression.

 

Second question: Why did Paul, with his education in religion and philosophy, not know this?

 

 

Third observation:

 

Epimenides was not a "Prophet", and that's my third question, why do Paul misrepresent Epimenides so grossly? It smells racism to me. Epimenides was a philosopher, and not a religious zealot like Paul.

 

 

Fourth observation:

 

Epimenides said "Cretans, always liars", nothing else. He didn't say "evil beasts, slow bellies" etc, and that is my concluding question. Why does Paul add on his own opinions into someone else's words? It's a very disingenuous act on his part, and in essence Paul is the one lying, and he does it in written form for all of us to read 2000 years later. Why did he lie like that?

*Bump*

 

I really, really, really want your explanation and interpretation of this SubZero.

[Ouroboros]

Yes there is, because if you looked up the word yourself in its original language, the works in John 14:12 is represented by the word ERGON. In Greek that means:

 

2041. ergon er'-gon from a primary (but obsolete) ergo (to work); toil (as an effort or occupation); by implication, an act:--deed, doing, labour, work.

 

Obviously it is not miracles or the like, but rather hard work and good deeds.

Oh, this is really fucked up!

 

So Jesus only told the apostles they would do greater works, and the works were only that now they would be able to chew gum and walk at the same time! WOW! What a miracle! What fabulous signs from heaven! The apostles would be able to find the remote control, learn to cook, figure out which tie fits best for a party and do laundry without losing the matching socks!

 

You seriously think that this supposed God inspired this supposed Holy Word of his, and wasted a whole chapter on telling you in the end times that the apostles would be able to knit mittens with more elaborate patterns than Jesus could?

 

So explain, what kind of works would the disciples do that were "larger", "better" than what Jesus supposedly did? Jesus did raised dead, and John would make a killer BBQ T-bone?

[Amanda]

Hey HanSolo... remember me?

 

See, you're getting frustrated with Sub Zero because he hasn't figured out your nature yet. I know, I've tested you... and know that you are NOT here to prove anything... just seeking answers... honestly... earnestly... sincerely... with no agenda but rational thinking. How can you communicate with someone when that is only one sided? One can only learn when they KNOW they don't know everything. Maybe that is what Jesus meant when he said we have to come to learn truth as a child? Even Einstien said something like 'when you think you know something, that is when you really don't know anything.'

 

Anyway HanSolo, I would like to comment about the word 'work' in John 14, the definition is as you said it is, the business of Jesus, and can be found here. What this character named Jesus was trying to say, IMO, is that what he was doing is not a miracle... only perceived as such because those people didn't understand it. The original manuscript, from which the translation came, explains how he did these things, and they can be replicated. Remember, that even Jesus had healings that failed! He was trying to say that everything he did can be done by everyone, as he was like everyone else and they are able to learn and do these things he taught... and he wanted them to do so, because he suspected he was going to die! He also knew that the way reason was progressing and the more accurate understanding of internal emotional experiences evolved that people would go on to do much greater things than he did! Can you see that as a possibility also?