One Verse At A Time...

[Ouroboros]

Hey HanSolo... remember me?

Of course I remeber you! How can I forget one of my favorite Christians.

 

Yeah. To answer you. How can one communicate with someone that is one sided? I don't know. It's futile.

 

When a verse in the Bible say one thing, but just because it doesn't fit into reality the believer twist the meaning of the words until it can be excused. Hence the word "apologetics". It's just finding excuses to continue to believe in a fantasy.

 

Anyway HanSolo, I would like to comment about the word 'work' in John 14, the definition is as you said it is, the business of Jesus, and can be found here. What this character named Jesus was trying to say, IMO, is that what he was doing is not a miracle... only perceived as such because those people didn't understand it. The original manuscript, from which the translation came, explains how he did these things, and they can be replicated. Remember, that even Jesus had healings that failed! He was trying to say that everything he did can be done by everyone, as he was like everyone else and they are able to learn and do these things he taught... and he wanted them to do so, because he suspected he was going to die! He also knew that the way reason was progressing and the more accurate understanding of internal emotional experiences evolved that people would go on to do much greater things than he did! Can you see that as a possibility also?

Of course that is a possibility, but it's just another excuse to explain away what it really say. By twisting and spinning the meanings I can easily make Harry Potter books to a Holy Bible that will guide me and lead my "spirit" on the journey of life. I can even take the spam emails and interpret them to fit my daily struggle.

 

I got two interpretations from Sub0, one was that the words there was only about the apostles, and the second was that it wasn't the works of miracles but the works of daily labour and mundane tasks. To me that is an example of the literalists dilemma. When something can't be interpreted to what it say, then it suddenly have to be explained away with elaborate ideas. And suddenly the question arises, why the heck did this assumed God have to put in some text that have no validity or importance to the believer of today? And yet, at the same time, this supposed God forgot to explain or give guidance about abortion, alcohol, smoking and thousands of other topics Christians can't agree on. Even the trinity is not explained by Jesus, but it's a core dogma that have divided the Church the last 2000 years! But God does have time and space in the book to write a whole chapter about the discples being able to stand on one foot and sing!

 

If "works" doesn't refer to the miracles, and the "believers" doesn't refer to todays Christians, then just as well we can with absolute certainty and without any doubt claim the "Holy Spirit" doesn't refer to a God entity, and "Jesus preparing places in Heaven" only means that Jesus was booking a room in the hotel called "Heaven". I mean, how deep in excuses should one go to explain a verse?

 

SubZero's explanations are totally waste of time, and worth less than the "presents" my dogs leave on the carpet in the living room! SubZ explains the verses just to fit him personally, not to what they say. He's the one stepping outside context and intention of the words. *sigh* This world is doomed, I tell ya'.

[Guest JPD]

I don't get it. Hasn't it been shown that he's just yankin' your chain? You are now literally arguing with the FundyBot5000 Devil's Advocate Addition complete with Pauline Upgrade and a whopping 32MG RAM!

[Ouroboros]

I don't get it. Hasn't it been shown that he's just yankin' your chain? You are now literally arguing with the FundyBot5000 Devil's Advocate Addition complete with Pauline Upgrade and a whopping 32MG RAM!

Very true. I'm just in a bad mood today and needed something to punch on.

 

I'm going to move this topic to the Lion's Den, because Sub_Zer0 is not serious, but just dishonest and full of lies.

[NotBlinded]

I don't get it. Hasn't it been shown that he's just yankin' your chain? You are now literally arguing with the FundyBot5000 Devil's Advocate Addition complete with Pauline Upgrade and a whopping 32MG RAM!

Very true. I'm just in a bad mood today and needed something to punch on.

 

I'm going to move this topic to the Lion's Den, because Sub_Zer0 is not serious, but just dishonest and full of lies.

Cool! Rooooooaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!

[mmccaskill]

I like how zero's experiment is progressing. Don't you?

Ummmm, errr.... NO!

 

Rub it in Mmccaskill... looks like some of us here don't catch on as fast as you guys over there!

I was mearly pointing out his sole reason for being here is to experiment as his website says.

 

Glad to see you stick around Mmccaskill... we can use you here. :wink:

Sure thing. It is one thing to actually have intelligent, logical debates with someone. It is entirely another thing to have someone ignore logical points time and time again.

 

If there is one thing I've learned from zero, it is this: Something is 100% true because I say so, even though I freely admit that something isn't able to be 100% validated.

[Amanda]

If "works" doesn't refer to the miracles, and the "believers" doesn't refer to todays Christians, then just as well we can with absolute certainty and without any doubt claim the "Holy Spirit" doesn't refer to a God entity, and "Jesus preparing places in Heaven" only means that Jesus was booking a room in the hotel called "Heaven". I mean, how deep in excuses should one go to explain a verse?

HanSolo, IMO, it refers to EVERYONE can do ALL these things Jesus did! They aren't 'miracles' because in this message, Jesus is saying EVERYONE can do this and even greater things! Is that a miracle? He was trying to tell them that just because they didn't understand it, doesn't make it a miracle! IMO, these were just new concepts that effected the health of people by empowering the oppressed! The character of Jesus had just a regular man's abilities!

SubZero's explanations are totally waste of time, and worth less than the "presents" my dogs leave on the carpet in the living room! SubZ explains the verses just to fit him personally, not to what they say. He's the one stepping outside context and intention of the words. *sigh* This world is doomed, I tell ya'.

I keep telling ya' that as long as people believe in a concept of a torturous hell they go to when they die, if they don't believe a certain way... it is futile to discuss with them anything! Get past that first! They have to overcome that false myth of a literal eternal hell... then they can escape the force of it's fear to be able to look at things more rationally. Look at Muslims that commit suicide missions against us because they think when they die they are going to get a harem of virgins to their disposal! What kind of loving entity/force/teachings would bribe or scare you into following him/it? AND it happens after you die? Then these people actually call that love?

 

If Sub Zero can get pass that earthquake... he'll probably be a much better participant with some good contributions in there somewhere. Those earthquakes are sometimes hard to get through though, yet you seem to cause them to happen when we least expect it. :wink:

 

There was a statement you made one time that still makes me uneasy whenever I even think of it!

[♦ nivek ♦]

Hans and all,

 

Gonna suggest that we quit responding to Subby.. fucker has met the requirements for *Trolling, First Class, Unwashed Anusoidial*.

 

Who or whomever it is is not here for "Encouraging Ex-christians", nor discussing the finer points of give and take.

 

In meat.life most of you would have walked off or punched it in face long ago.

 

This trollkind exists for the attention it gets from using its shotgun technique to keep folks running to and fro trying to keep up and figure out just what the fuck it is trying to do.

 

Boss and Staff well aware of subby and the shit it is doing. This not is just a personal observation and not *word from back room* about how to conduct your replies.

 

In dojo the "taget of the day" is known as "uki". Subby sure fits the definition, the dummy used to punch the fuck out of...

 

kL

[NotBlinded]

Hans and all,

 

Gonna suggest that we quit responding to Subby.. fucker has met the requirements for *Trolling, First Class, Unwashed Anusoidial*.

 

Who or whomever it is is not here for "Encouraging Ex-christians", nor discussing the finer points of give and take.

 

In meat.life most of you would have walked off or punched it in face long ago.

 

This trollkind exists for the attention it gets from using its shotgun technique to keep folks running to and fro trying to keep up and figure out just what the fuck it is trying to do.

 

Boss and Staff well aware of subby and the shit it is doing. This not is just a personal observation and not *word from back room* about how to conduct your replies.

 

In dojo the "taget of the day" is known as "uki". Subby sure fits the definition, the dummy used to punch the fuck out of...

 

kL

Dang-it Nivek! I think this is the first time that I can't even begin to figure out what the heck you just said????

[thunderbolt]

I don't get it. Hasn't it been shown that he's just yankin' your chain? You are now literally arguing with the FundyBot5000 Devil's Advocate Addition complete with Pauline Upgrade and a whopping 32MG RAM!

 

That was way funny - FundyBot5000. Exactly why I stopped responding.

Thanks for making my day.

[white_raven23]

Aaaaah! *stretches all over* This tripe has FINALLY been moved to the Lion's Den!

 

Mr. _Zero,

 

I would like to tell you it was a pleasure discussing the bible with you, but that would be a lie. It was annoying that you came here to discuss a book you did not really know jack shit about, other than to regurgitate apologetic nonsense without really taking care as to what you were really saying as you yourself refuted the validity of the book in question multiple times.

 

And I say you did not really know this book before coming here because when we would mention well known stories from said book, you did not even know where or what verses we were even referring to. You are a cheap bible slut.

 

For as lock-brained as you are, I hope you are content to stew in front of your computer to the end of your days, except for when you crawl out of your hole long enough to actually go to church....but that would mean being around real people with possibly more flexible opinions, so to preserve your own version of piety, you probably are better off staying in front of your computer.

 

After all, if you actually took a shot at REAL LIFE, you would likely drop dead of a heart attack and then discover for yourself, that god is not made in your image after all, and you really knew much less than you thought, and maybe for the first time since you became self aware, you would truly learn what it is to be humble.

 

I hope you enjoy your version of reality, and I hope you learn to keep it to yourself as I believe everyone is titled to their own realities. I will now move on with my life. I will not think of you, and if I ever ponder anything you have said in this loooong thread, it will be for the sake of briefly pitying the sadness of a mind happily in chains.

 

Happy Valentine's Day.

[NotBlinded]

Aaaaah! *stretches all over* This tripe has FINALLY been moved to the Lion's Den!

 

Mr. _Zero,

 

I would like to tell you it was a pleasure discussing the bible with you, but that would be a lie. It was annoying that you came here to discuss a book you did not really know jack shit about, other than to regurgitate apologetic nonsense without really taking care as to what you were really saying as you yourself refuted the validity of the book in question multiple times.

 

And I say you did not really know this book before coming here because when we would mention well known stories from said book, you did not even know where or what verses we were even referring to. You are a cheap bible slut.

 

For as lock-brained as you are, I hope you are content to stew in front of your computer to the end of your days, except for when you crawl out of your hole long enough to actually go to church....but that would mean being around real people with possibly more flexible opinions, so to preserve your own version of piety, you probably are better off staying in front of your computer.

 

After all, if you actually took a shot at REAL LIFE, you would likely drop dead of a heart attack and then discover for yourself, that god is not made in your image after all, and you really knew much less than you thought, and maybe for the first time since you became self aware, you would truly learn what it is to be humble.

 

I hope you enjoy your version of reality, and I hope you learn to keep it to yourself as I believe everyone is titled to their own realities. I will now move on with my life. I will not think of you, and if I ever ponder anything you have said in this loooong thread, it will be for the sake of briefly pitying the sadness of a mind happily in chains.

 

Happy Valentine's Day.

I love your way with words White Raven! Have you ever considered being a writer? Are you a writer? This has got to be the funniest thing I have seen posted in response to a person of Sub's category..."You are a cheap bible slut."

[Guest sub_zer0]

And I say you did not really know this book before coming here because when we would mention well known stories from said book, you did not even know where or what verses we were even referring to. You are a cheap bible slut.

 

You have no idea of my motives in asking you to tell me where the verses were and to describe it. I am accomplishing a dual-purpose here whether you know it or not.

 

For as lock-brained as you are, I hope you are content to stew in front of your computer to the end of your days, except for when you crawl out of your hole long enough to actually go to church....but that would mean being around real people with possibly more flexible opinions, so to preserve your own version of piety, you probably are better off staying in front of your computer.

 

Yeah, real people who believe the same as me. Why would I go to a non-Christian or non-Christ centered church to begin with? I'm trying to become more spiritually mature when going to church, I don't want to be around people void of the spirit.

 

After all, if you actually took a shot at REAL LIFE, you would likely drop dead of a heart attack and then discover for yourself, that god is not made in your image after all, and you really knew much less than you thought, and maybe for the first time since you became self aware, you would truly learn what it is to be humble.

 

Reality? You are talking to me about real life and being humble? As if you have any clue how my family, let alone my life, is going.

 

To clue you in on MY reality let me ask you some questions. Does your brother have the top 3% worse case scenario for Crohn's disease? Has your best friend since birth recently die a few years ago?

 

I have been tested by life like I am being tested by all of you, but it only reinforces my beliefs and causes me to grow and mature in comfort from the Almighty and recognize His unceasing willingness to be in my life.

 

I hope you enjoy your version of reality, and I hope you learn to keep it to yourself as I believe everyone is titled to their own realities. I will now move on with my life. I will not think of you, and if I ever ponder anything you have said in this loooong thread, it will be for the sake of briefly pitying the sadness of a mind happily in chains.

 

Happy Valentine's Day.

 

Chains, what chains?

 

Romans 8:2

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

[NotBlinded]

And I say you did not really know this book before coming here because when we would mention well known stories from said book, you did not even know where or what verses we were even referring to. You are a cheap bible slut.

 

You have no idea of my motives in asking you to tell me where the verses were and to describe it. I am accomplishing a dual-purpose here whether you know it or not.

 

We are not stupid. See this here where I knew you were up to something. No one is as stupid as you portray yourself to be. Here, I will post what I said in case you missed it or you won't bother to look. Others have called you out before I did.

 

You know, as others have noticed also, sub never seems to know where anything is in the bible. I think it is bullshit. Maybe it is his sick way of getting us to read the bible...like there is some reward for him to get us to do this.

 

Romans 8:2

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

Awwww...if only you understood your own bible...

[white_raven23]

Yeah, real people who believe the same as me. Why would I go to a non-Christian or non-Christ centered church to begin with? I'm trying to become more spiritually mature when going to church, I don't want to be around people void of the spirit.

 

You poor clueless sap. Do you really think the people in your church all believe *exactly* the way you do? They will lie to your face and say "yes". But people are all individuals. It is impossible for a group of people to all believe things exactly the same way.

 

Why do you think I was referring to a non-christian church? I didn't say that. Don't put words in my mouth you whore under Babylon.

 

 

To clue you in on MY reality let me ask you some questions. Does your brother have the top 3% worse case scenario for Crohn's disease? Has your best friend since birth recently die a few years ago?

 

Oh no! You mean to say that life is HARD??? Oh golly gee whiz!!

I don't have a brother.

My best friend killed himself our senior year, and used the christian religion I introduced him to to justify it.

 

Life sucks, and there are plenty of sob stories here. Grow a spine of your own, quit using religion as a splintered crutch, and try to make the best of your life you whining bitch.

 

Hugs & Kisses

[NotBlinded]

Oh my gawd White Raven! You crack me up! I would post a bunch of laughing smilies, but I'm on quick reply!

[mmccaskill]

And I say you did not really know this book before coming here because when we would mention well known stories from said book, you did not even know where or what verses we were even referring to. You are a cheap bible slut.

 

You have no idea of my motives in asking you to tell me where the verses were and to describe it. I am accomplishing a dual-purpose here whether you know it or not.

I decided to conduct a bit of an experiment to see how atheists react to Christians

I think it is quite clear your motives to this forum are the same as they were for the AN.

 

You shouldn't zero. Your god might smite you for that.

[Guest sub_zer0]

So did when Jesus is talking about the works than he did, is he refering to the hard work and good deeds?or is he talking about Miracles?

 

Specifically in John 14:12 the word used here in the original Greek is Ergon.

 

2041. ergon er'-gon from a primary (but obsolete) ergo (to work); toil (as an effort or occupation); by implication, an act:--deed, doing, labour, work.

 

So you see Jesus meant works in the sense of hard work and good deeds in Christs name.

 

Once again you are adding mental qualifiers to the verse, it is quite clear which says "one believing into Me will do greater works", not "ones, who are limited to this area, believing into Me

 

There is no indication in the promise that this is limited to a small geographical area and to a specific people.

 

Of course ones believing in Christ will do greater works. I mean Jesus is one man, while we are a multitude and bear the responsibility of bringing people to Christ, thus being greater works than Christ as we can bring more people to the faith literally. I am not referring to the people Christ is talking to as being limited, as Jesus says they will do "greater works than I do."

 

It is important to note that if you examine the early chapters of Acts you will find from a numerical standpoint, the works of Peter and other Apostle's surpassed that of Jesus in a single day (the day of Pentecost). On that day more were added to the church than had become followers of Jesus during the entire three years of his earthly ministry.

 

It is clear if you keep on reading in John that Christ goes away to enable the Holy Spirit to come into the world for believers in Christ in order to be helped in doing those works.

 

If you want to say this promise is for the particular people, then I suppose that every promise that Jesus made regarding "Believe me and get Eternal life" would also be limited to a small geographical area and to a specific people.

 

If it is directed towards a specific people, then why do you say that the bible is for everybody.

 

Once again it is you who decides who this verse is for and who is not for?

 

I am saying Jesus only went to select places to preach and in that way He was limited. His earthly ministry reached to Judea, Samaria and Galilee mostly. The Apostle's however brought it to the masses of the world. Jesus was to be a light, a beacon unto the Gentiles and in that sense it is a specific people. We, whether it be the disciples or a believer today, are to have that light and possess it to display that light to all the ends of the earth.

 

I think it is quite clear your motives to this forum are the same as they were for the AN.

 

You shouldn't zero. Your god might smite you for that.

 

Thanks for the promo, but it isn't needed mmccaskill. It was an expirement that needed to be addressed during the overall goal of spreading the word of God.

[white_raven23]

See Zero?

 

We DO know your motives. And we feel no need to respect sand lice like you for thinking of us as experimental subjects when not ONE of us consented to be used for your research.

We are not lab rats.

Obtaining consent is an ethical courtesy you are apparantly unfamilair with.

 

Having had psychological experimental ethics drummed into me by some very wise professors, I can justly tell you to take a flying leap into a hay baler while holding a bag of salt.

 

Thank you mmccaskill, for once again posting as yet unrefuted evidence of this *persons* real intent.

[Antlerman]

Having had psychological experimental ethics drummed into me by some very wise professors, I can justly tell you to take a flying leap into a hay baler while holding a bag of salt.

[Guest sub_zer0]

We DO know your motives. And we feel no need to respect sand lice like you for thinking of us as experimental subjects when not ONE of us consented to be used for your research.

We are not lab rats.

 

Nor am I a scientist. So get off that idea.

 

Obtaining consent is an ethical courtesy you are apparantly unfamilair with.

 

Having had psychological experimental ethics drummed into me by some very wise professors, I can justly tell you to take a flying leap into a hay baler while holding a bag of salt.

 

Thank you mmccaskill, for once again posting as yet unrefuted evidence of this *persons* real intent.

 

Actually I have posted that on MY site @ http://www.todayshistory.info

 

I created the evidence, and you would think that I wouldn't post it as it does display my real intent of making you my lab rat. You see, if my intent was what you think it is, why would I post something giving you evidence against me. The truth is that isn't my intent and you still fail to see what my motive really is.

 

Is Hell as real as the Sabbath?

 

Yes but very different things.

 

Jesus said, “Man is not made for Sabbath, but Sabbath is made for man.”

Likewise, Hell is made for man, man is not made for Hell.

 

OK. Since it is man who decides to ultimately disregard God, thus sending himself to hell, then Hell is made for him as it doesn't have God.

 

If you manage to believe and act out that the spirit of love in Christianity is more than the fixated dogmatic eternal hell fire, you are a true follower of Jesus. If you insist the fear and threat of eternal hell fire on yourself and other people, you have become the Pharisees that your Gospels detest.

 

The Bible speaks more about hell than it does about heaven... what is your response to that?

[Antlerman]

OK. Since it is man who decides to ultimately disregard God, thus sending himself to hell, then Hell is made for him as it doesn't have God.

And it isn't enough to just be separated from God? Your God has to punish, nay, torture endlessly! for zero reason other than for the sake of torture, all those who ---- here it comes now----- couldn't accept the ignorant bullshit that comes out of the mouths of closed-minded children like you! Christ!! You have one fucked up belief junior.

 

Put that in your book of experimenting on atheists, you Nazi putz.

 

BTW, Why the hell are you still here? Have you made one convert, ego boy?

[Guest sub_zer0]

And it isn't enough to just be separated from God? Your God has to punish, nay, torture endlessly! for zero reason other than for the sake of torture, all those who ---- here it comes now----- couldn't accept the ignorant bullshit that comes out of the mouths of closed-minded children like you! Christ!! You have one fucked up belief junior.

 

Put that in your book of experimenting on atheists, you Nazi putz.

 

BTW, Why the hell are you still here? Have you made one convert, ego boy?

 

No you see the WHOLE thing about sin, or disregarding God, comes judgement. Sin = judgment. So to be forever away from God like you oh so desired also comes the judgment of that grave sin.

 

Deal with it, if you don't want to then take what Christ said and accept it.

 

 

My belief is so "fucked up" that God sent His only begotten Son to SAVE YOU FROM IT!

[thunderbolt]

My belief is so "fucked up" that God sent His only begotten Son to SAVE YOU FROM IT!

Yeah, totally fucked up asshole. Put your "salvation" and your "lord" in your pipe and smoke it, cus you are already on a high that only you can explain. And oh, I fucking hope your children turn out gay - it might be only thing that wakes you up from your religious trip - but I doubt.

 

Now please go and waste someone else' time.

[white_raven23]

We DO know your motives. And we feel no need to respect sand lice like you for thinking of us as experimental subjects when not ONE of us consented to be used for your research.

We are not lab rats.

 

Nor am I a scientist. So get off that idea.

 

And you think that means you don't have to take ethical responsibility?

 

So the next time I see some poor guy choking, I can just cut his widpipe open to remove the object....and if he dies, I can simply say: "Well, I'm not a doctor."

 

They don't make words low enough to describe someone like you.

The Bible speaks more about hell than it does about heaven... what is your response to that?

 

Oh! I know! That Biblegod is a cruel bloodthirsty monster who delights in the screaming torment of souls writhing in hell!

 

Deal with it, if you don't want to then take what Christ said and accept it.

 

We don't have to accept anything. Piss off.

[Guest sub_zer0]

Oh! I know! That Biblegod is a cruel bloodthirsty monster who delights in the screaming torment of souls writhing in hell!

 

"When we look at the world around us, sometimes its difficult to understand the unfairness of life.

It's not fair that the young should suffer. It's not fair that the innocent should go hungry. But nor is it fair that a God would have to come to earth and hang on a cross to protect us from the evil one.

It't not fair ... but that's LOVE. And that's GOD!

 

God's love for you is not dependent on how you look, how you think, how you act, or how perfect you are. His love is absolutely non-negotiable and non-returnable. Ours is a faithful God.

 

The love of Christ compels us to do what we never thought we could do and go to heights we never thought we could reach. Precious is the name of Jesus!

 

Run to Jesus. Jesus wants you to go to him. He wants to be the most important person in your life,

the greatest love you'll ever know. He wants you to love him so much that there's no room in your heart and in your life for sin. Invite him to take up residence in your heart.

 

"Father, we look at your plan and it's all based on Love, not on performance, and we pray that you'd help us to understand that. To be captivated by your love. To be overwhelmed by your grace. To come home to you in that beautiful path that you've already carved out for us. We pray in Jesus name, Amen."

 

- Max Lucado -CLICK HERE

 

Yeah, totally fucked up asshole. Put your "salvation" and your "lord" in your pipe and smoke it, cus you are already on a high that only you can explain. And oh, I fucking hope your children turn out gay - it might be only thing that wakes you up from your religious trip - but I doubt.

 

Now please go and waste someone else' time.

 

Only you can waste yyour own time. You are choosing to respond, don't if I am wasting your time.