Christians, Would You Plead For Us In The Final Judgment?

[white_raven23]

Txviper,

 

Your response to this thread leaves much to be desired.

 

You were not asked weather you thought our fate with god was negotiable or not.

 

You were asked if YOU standing THERE would plead our case. NOT weather or not you thought such interferance would be effective.

 

Do you think such a show of compassion would wind up with you being punished by god for "defying" his will?

 

Interesting.....since this is supposed to be a loving god we are talking about.

 

If eternity is supposed to mean ultimately being a "yes-man" forever, Then I prefer firey oblivion to the hijacking of my soul.

 

Burn baby burn.

[Fweethawt]

This is some pretty funny stuff.

 

The only True Christian™ response that we get, is from a True Christian™ whose thoughts are generated from the theology instead of from "within".

 

A thread like this could go far in teaching believers the difference between thinking for themselves, and realizing that their own thought processes have indeed been hijacked by the church.

[white_raven23]

I think what he was saying in a round-about way is that he won't care, because we had our chance on earth and we didn't take it. He probably figures, if god doesn't care, then he shouldn't care either. Of course, christians also believe that they will get a spiritual amnesia for the rest of eternity.

 

Aaaand......

 

THIS is supposed to be the "heaven" of the afterlife.....right? Spiritial apathy or spiritual lobotomy? Great. What a deal. Treat this life with all the significance of a hospital waiting room.....and that is the eternal reward?

 

This is the best evidence there is for the Christian inability to think things through.

[Ouroboros]

Serenity, you're right! The reason to wanting to go to Heaven is more about that a person don't want to die, but also they want to meet their loved ones. That's the real driving force behind the wish, not that they love God!

[Ouroboros]

If there is a judgment day, I think that it would be much harder on the Christians than the unbelievers.

 

Consider that the believer is supposed to have the Holy Spirit to help them to the right things, and still they don't. They sin and kill and steal and lust etc, they have no excuse, while the unbeliever actually have an excuse for sinning. They are just the way they are.

 

And there's another thing, look at all the expensive churches all over the world, and all the poverty and even beggers in the corners just one block from the Church. Who's the greedy one there?

 

Then yet another thing, looking back on Chris De Vidals posts that we never were Christians, and our teachers and pastors were teaching the wrong gospel, that makes me wonder how many preachers are doing this? If 99.9% of the preachers have the wrong message, and 99.9% of the Christians are false Christians, I'd say God have serious problem. He will be surrounded by the 10 people in the world through history that managed to get the message right. Ssel, TxViper, Chris and a few more. God's going to be extremely lonely. The party will be in Hell. God will condemn them all to join us in the eternal BBQ!

[TruthWarrior]

 

[Oh, and how many of us have wanted to shoot the church pianist for playing on the piano 15 minutes AFTER the song has ended with the dramatic triumph on the keys all the while saying, "YES, Jesus. (more dramatics) We PRAISE YOU, heavenly father. (more dramatics) Oh, Lord, we feel your presence. (dramatics), etc." Meanwhile, people are yawning, the flow of hands being raised high to heaven are now held half assed with elbow resting on the waist, people are looking at others, some at their watches, some are rolling their eyes, some are thinking (I wish he would shut the f*ck up and quit playing already) ROFL!!!

 

 

I'm having flashbacks. What about when the singing stops, and the pianist keeps going. Pastor is droning loudly, "Yes Lord, Come Holy Spirit, he need a touch." And everyone is free-babbling in tongues and every now and then it is punctuated by some woman sing-songing "I love you lord" and some other people going "amen, amen". Then that droning dies down, and you have the die hards who are crying and swaying with their arms up and others who are curled up in a ball or lying prostrate in the aisle. Meanwhile the other half of the church is looking around with their arms half mast.

 

I must not have been a real Christian, because all I could think about was that the guy lying on the floor prostrate had a major wedgie or if we should go out to eat later. Towards the end, I would just go hang with my little ones in the nursery.

 

Haha! I remember in our youth group once we sung the "Sing to the Lord a New Song" praise song... over and over. That drove me crazy!

 

But yeh those worship services are all the same. Always with the tongue guys and gals up front shouting their babble, random praises, it all sounded like recess time at the insane asylum. One time I brought by girlfriend (now wife) to one praise service and everyone else was all on the ground, all speaking in tongues or crying and it freaked her out. So we both left the place.

 

There's an online world called "Second Life", where everyone has an avatar and moves around a 3D world where you can explore, create, buy and sell, create property, houses and any object and vehicle. So of course the christians in it had to create a church for themselves. Now in this cyber church, they have weekly sunday services, with a real live audio sermon from a real preacher in Second Life. Everyone sits their 3d avatar in the 3d pews and the preacher stands at the altar just like a real church. Now what's funny is that in Second Life you can have get animations to animate your character. So when they have their praise time in the church they do swaying animations (some with their hands raised of course) and prostating, and prayer ones too, always the one in the front row too, it's the funniest thing! They were also trying to get audio chat too, through a seperate program, I'd imagine if they did, they'd be speaking in tongues and crying online too!

 

Other then that Second Life is virtually religion free. I've seen no evangelizing from the christians apart from the occasional tacky billboard or huge cross on someone's property. Everyone in SL has freedom to do and create anything (which everyone practices to the fullest extent). It's a fun game.

 

[Ruth]

I would if I could. If it was in my power to let my soul be a shield and buffer on that Day, I would. Abraham pleaded for mercy on Sodom and tried to find good in it; the Lord listened to his requests on behalf of the city, but the fact remained that it had earned itself God's condemnation. I wonder... could it be something like asking for mercy for a man on death row, offering to suffer their penalty? If the government allowed such a substitution to take place (for surely, among all those who care about the condemned, there would be one who would do it - his friend perhaps), would that be justice?

 

Of course, that is what Jesus has done for us; the innocent has died a traitor's death and blessed the traitor with his last breath. And by his blood, by choosing to take the punishment, he lets us go free. Can we then run off, forgetting the man who has put himself up as our bail? Of course not! We love him, we serve him , and, as he has forgiven us, we turn to forgive.

 

I do not think it is permitted me to presume to make intercedence, when Jesus has already done so. Please don't be foolish, cutting down those who suffer for your sakes! I tell you, God will be both Judge and Defense on that day for those who accept him - that you may live, be "washed in the blood of the Lamb" (to relate this to the old Testament, from Exodus, that God may pass you over).

 

I cannot convince you of anything, but to answer your question concisely: yes, I will if I get a chance. And during this life, I am accountable to each of you - I will have to answer for my actions at the end as well. For, out of obedience to God (whose plan provides for your's and my salvation), I must bear the Gospel - both to those who have already heard and those who have not.

 

"I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh..." (Romans 9:1-3)

[SkepticOfBible]

I do not think it is permitted me to presume to make intercedence, when Jesus has already done so. Please don't be foolish, cutting down those who suffer for your sakes! I tell you, God will be both Judge and Defense on that day for those who accept him - that you may live, be "washed in the blood of the Lamb"

 

But for those who don't believe, they are gonna goto hell. The Blood in the wasn't "supposed to Wash away your sins". This concept belongs to Pagans not the OT.

 

(to relate this to the old Testament, from Exodus, that God may pass you over).

 

You do know the Jews were never in any danger from plague of death?

[SkepticOfBible]

Besides Christ suffered for like 3 hours. This is nothing compared to what unbelievers will suffer for eternity.

 

You do know unbelievers include the following

 

1)Jews who dies in the Nazi Holocaust

2)Babies

3)Your "unsaved" loved ones.

 

Would you be truly be happy in heaven if you know people who you love will not be there in the the afterlife?

 

And please explain to me how is the punishment of the Christian god any different than Allah?

[scotter]

 

 

Ruth, that was touching and beautiful; on the literary level, mature and eloquent. You are 17?

 

I, a God believer, thank you for your response and your good heart. I personally cannot represent the rest of resident members, because some of us are atheists, so this final judgment scenario described is not a scenario at all to atheist members.

 

For you Ruth, it basically comes down to finite or infinite penalty(eternal hell fire), for finite sin.

 

Recall the 2nd option: God offers to you that offenders still have to face due penalty (just and fair enough?), but not forever penalty.

 

Jesus died for your sins, God’s love is glorified and fulfilled.

 

If God is a God of just as you piously believe, I shall leave to you further contemplate which serves and glorifies God’s JUSTICE even more:

 

infinite punishment for finite sin, or

finite punishment for finite sin?

[Asuryan]

Jesus's sacrifice is a joke for at least two reasons...

 

1) He suffered for about 3 hours. Many people have suffered for much more time than that. What about those people that in the middle ages were shut in very small cells, so small that they couldn't stand or sit but had to crouch with bent knees and back. Eating their food from a small hole in the wall, living crouched in the middle of their own bodily fluids, never seeing light again or the comfort of another human being. Surviving that way for ten or even twenty hears.

This seems much worse than just 3 hours of crucifixion. Don't you agree?

 

2) He's god.

Meaning he's omnipotent.

If he had wanted it, he could've destroyed the whole city, or even simply reducing the cross to ashes and walking around perfectly healed.

He chose to stay there and die, but see the problem?

He had a choice. Suffering human beings don't.

As rape victims can tell you, one of the worse things of being subjected to violence is the feeling of impotence and utter terror. You can't do anything. There's nothing you can do at all.

The jews in concentration camps had no choice to just open the gate with their godly powers and go away walking freely, while the nazists' guns melt down in a puddle of goo. The tortured people in the middle ages, same thing.

The difference between sex and rape is just that: with the first one you have a choice. With the second one there is no choice. This is what makes rape really horrible.

So... jesus had a choice. This automatically means that his death and pain is worth much less than the death and pain of the two sinners at his sides.

 

3) Jesus is God.

God is omniscient.

Jesus is omniscient.

Jesus knows all.

Jesus knew that in 3 days, he would've come back to life and ascended to heaven where everything is wonderful and beautiful. It's not that he had *faith* in heaven, he KNEW that heaven WAS surely there, he's the one that created it of course he should know.

So, hmm... is it like going to the dentist? Of course it's painful, but you know that it's gonna stop in some time and then you'll feel better. Not much of a sacrifice, if I put it this way, right?

What is braver, the sacrifice of a man that has got no superpowers, no chance to get out of it with a miracle or something like that, and he doesn't even know if there is really a life after death so his life could very well be EVERYTHING he has got to give and he gives it anyway?

Or the sacrifice of someone that could get up and go away if he only decided that he wanted to do that, and that in any case knows perfectly that he's sacrificing nothing? Yes, nothing, because if god-jesus wanted he could send to earth other 100 000 jesuses. God is immortal, he doesn't have a finite number of lives to throw away. An human being has got only one. And his sacrifice is much more noble because of that.

God/Jesus sacrifice ---> "I have 1.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000 (add zeroes until the END OF TIME...) dollars. Here! I sacrifice one! I am so generous!"

Human sacrifice ---> "I have 1 dollar. I will never ever have any other dollars, just this one. I have no proof of other dollars for me somewhere else, the only thing that I know is that if I open my purse i only have this one dollar with me.

Here is my dollar."

 

Convoluted and probably full of mistakes, but who cares, hope I managed to express myself!

[Lycorth]

 

Well-said! I agree totally; the sacrifice of Jesus™, when looked at from a wholly non-objective standpoint, is a complete and total crock. Big whoop, three whole hours on the cross. My father is a WWII US Naval Veteran; he suffered for three years and three months on the water. First on a destroyer in the North Atlantic, hunting u-boats, in what he always describes as a "cold hell," then over two years on the USS New Jersey in the South Pacific, down in the firerooms where is was so hot you didn't sweat but brushed the salt from your skin and had to wear a rag on your face to breathe. He was either in danger of being torpedoed by the Germans or blown up by the Japanese - and since the New Jersey was a battleship, he was right inbetween the kamikazes and the aircraft carriers they were trying to hit. Battleships could withstand kamikaze attacks, and repel most of them, but hundreds could've died if a kamikaze hit the ship's bridge, for example.

 

He sustained numerous burns and injuries during the war, and needed extensive rehab after the war's end. He lost the first layer of skin from his neck down due to the acid bath treatments he needed to help recover. And he also needed hospitalization for mental issues; three years and three months in a real hell does bad things to a sailor's mind. And he's still here, still alive, still with us.

 

Before that, he grew up in Trenton, New Jersey, during the Great Depression. Starving, freezing, lacking even running water - and with his father dead in a work-related accident, he and his seven siblings had only their ailing mother to rely on in those dark days.

 

He was only one man. There were millions involved in WWII. Millions upon millions more involved in all the wars in human history. And those who suffered during long years of combat are not alone in the number and type of humans who have suffered in our time on earth. Not just three hours crucified; that would be terrible indeed, but nowhere near as hellish as what billions of humans have endured throughout the centuries, just like my father.

 

If the Xian god was so loving and so merciful, people like my father wouldn't have endured one moment of that. If the Xian god really was as full of love as Xians say, our world wouldn't be riddled with suffering. And considering the long years, sometimes lifelong, sufferings human beings endure, the so-called "sacrifice" of Jesus™ is nothing more than a hyped-up, over-propangadized joke.

 

The cross is nothing compared to reality.

[TruthWarrior]

I think Jesus' death was still a sacrifice in the story. He turned himself in rather then had his followers fight and die against the Roman guard for him. His followers where then able to flee and scatter. So he basically did "save" them by dieing on the cross. I dont think it matters how long a person suffers, a sacrifice is a sacrifice.

 

"My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. You are my friends if you do what I command."- John 15:12-14 (niv)

[txviper]

Hans,

 

“Conditional mercy?”

 

God is not capricious and mercy is not arbitrary. There has to be a basis for mercy.

 

 

”Isn't Destiny and Fate pretty much the same thing?”

 

Not from my perspective. Destiny is about winding up where you belong based on choices. Fate is about failure to recognize the objective and the means of achieving it.

 

 

“You're saying that sins and actions works only to disadvantage but not advantage? So even if a person has been good his whole life, and done good things, it doesn't help him, but if he has just thought one sin, that is enough to punish him, did I get that right?”

 

Not really. The issue is not our sins nor our natural proclivity towards sin. The issue is one of compatibility and completeness. Unbelievers are only body and soul. Physical death destroys the body. The second death is about the soul.

 

 

“how do you choose? What is that choice? What do you choose between? Choice between going to heaven or hell, or to confess Jesus as Lord, or confess the Bible to be true, or what is it?”

 

Very simple. What think ye of Christ?

 

 

“You believe? You mean you don't know? Where's the confidence here Tx?”

 

I have never settled down on the issue of soul immortality for unbelievers. I don’t know if I will ever draw anything beyond tentative conclusions about that. But then, I only have passing interest in the subject.

 

 

“I thought you had it all figured out and knew exactly what is going to happen, since you seem to have been there, seen it and have the evidence for this to be exactly the way you say it's going to be.”

 

Hardly. Some things are clear and lucid and some are just not.

 

============

 

Wolfheart,

 

“how can I be alone and not alone at the same time?”

 

I don’t know of anything in the Bible which indicates that unbelievers will feel anything but isolation after death. They are indeed part of a group, but it will not be a support group.

 

 

“Then why avoid sin if it isn't an issue?”

 

Well, from the standpoint of unbelievers, I can’t really say that there is much of a reason beyond reaping what you sow. Have at it if that’s what makes you happy, albeit only temporarily. But for believers, there are at least two issues. First, God is a masterful parent to His kids and He will not hesitate to spank them if necessary. (I know this from the Bible and personal experience. I wish I had learned a lot of lessons on an academic basis rather than the hard way). Second is the issue of reward. The down side of “lay up treasure for yourself” is that believers can choose not to.

 

 

“If I'm already damned, then why a trial? Sounds like a mock trial to me.”

 

God does not skip the formalities. Old Testament saints were held up in paradise (the “cool” side of sheol) until after atonement was accomplished.

 

 

“And why would a Jewish tribal god utilize a system of jurisprudence developed by pagan Anglo-Saxons?”

 

Ours is a mimic of His, not the other way around.

 

============

 

Scotter,

 

“It is quite common that within a family, maybe one sibling is a born-again Christian, the other siblings, the parents are not believers.”

 

Familial relationships are not perpetuated after death.

 

 

”Would you plead for your family members, if they are not believers?”

 

Not then, no.

 

 

”And “There is no point pleading for them” still holds? Towards your beloved family members?”

 

That is correct. The time for pleading and reasoning is now.

 

 

”Lucky you if your whole family are born-again Christians, how about your cousins? Grandparents? Somehow there are relatives in your family tree who are not Christians.”

 

I am sure there are somewhere. But I am truly fortunate in this regard. I cannot name anyone in my family, up to three generations back, that I do not expect to see at the marriage supper. There is no shortage of reprobates of several varieties, but they have all been believers.

 

That said, I’ve learned to thrill at what I have with the brethren. There is a peculiar kinship in a kingdom of priests.

 

============

 

Pritish,

 

“Do you mean

1)For believers:Degree of Reward

2)For Unbelievers:Degree of Punishment”

 

Absolutely on point 1. I’m not as surefooted on point 2.

 

 

“do unbelievers also include the jews who died in the holocaust?”

 

“Chosen People” status has to do with an unconditional covenant between God and Abraham. Christ was in the midst of them when He clarified the terms. “He that believeth……”

 

=============

 

Euphgeek,

 

“nope, it doesn't say that a person can only repent before they die”

”no, that doesn't say anything about that, either”

”nope, still nothing that says we can't repent after we die”

 

You have the evidence. There is no indication that repentance will have any value after death when faith is no longer the issue.

 

 

“That is not entirely true. God does not "hate" because hate is the opposite of God.”

 

Well granted, hatred as it pertains to God is different than what humans feel. But there are things that fall into the category.

 

 

“And religion can be a good thing, because it helps some people”

 

I think religion is Satan’s ace trump card. He would prefer people to be, in ascending order:

 

grossly evil

evil

somewhat evil

sortof good

good

very good

religious

 

Anything but born again into the royal family is acceptable.

 

 

“(like you and me) on their path to self-realization.”

 

I do not buy the “paths” idea. In my mind, this is being lost in the woods and making friends with the trees.

 

 

“you are still searching for the answer”

 

No, I am on friendly terms with the Person who designed everything from the DNA molecule to the things you see in Hubble photos.

 

 

“Once you find what true happiness in this lifetime is, you will not be concerned with "thrills" “.

 

Real happiness is a commodity that holds up in the midst of bad circumstances. There is a certain thrill in being happy in the middle of those. The Bible talks about this.

 

 

“When you have truly "found it", you will not be concerned with always being right.”

 

That sentiment has been repeated several times here, as if there is some virtue attached to being wrong. This is just another illusion. A self-imposed one in my view.

[Open_Minded]

Familial relationships are not perpetuated after death.

<snip...>

 

”Lucky you if your whole family are born-again Christians, how about your cousins? Grandparents? Somehow there are relatives in your family tree who are not Christians.”

 

I am sure there are somewhere. But I am truly fortunate in this regard. I cannot name anyone in my family, up to three generations back, that I do not expect to see at the marriage supper. There is no shortage of reprobates of several varieties, but they have all been believers.

 

AAARRRGGG.... .... experiencing extreme confusion .......

 

Why would you care if you "see" your family at "the marriage supper" if "Familial relationships are not perpetuated after death"??????

 

And exactly how would it be "heaven" if you were without the love you shared here on earth within your "familial relationships"?

[dr_funkenstein]

Familial relationships are not perpetuated after death.

<snip...>

 

”Lucky you if your whole family are born-again Christians, how about your cousins? Grandparents? Somehow there are relatives in your family tree who are not Christians.”

 

I am sure there are somewhere. But I am truly fortunate in this regard. I cannot name anyone in my family, up to three generations back, that I do not expect to see at the marriage supper. There is no shortage of reprobates of several varieties, but they have all been believers.

 

AAARRRGGG.... .... experiencing extreme confusion .......

 

Why would you care if you "see" your family at "the marriage supper" if "Familial relationships are not perpetuated after death"??????

 

And exactly how would it be "heaven" if you were without the love you shared here on earth within your "familial relationships"?

 

Playing devil's (lol) advocate:

You won't need any inter-human relationships in heaven because all you will need is God. He is perfect and complete and your eternal bliss will be simply to bask in the glory of continuous, uninterrupted, pure, unbridled, unfettered, no-holds-back communion with Him.

 

But you know, the whole thing makes no sense, so why expect that particular bit to...

[Lycorth]

“how can I be alone and not alone at the same time?”

 

I don’t know of anything in the Bible which indicates that unbelievers will feel anything but isolation after death. They are indeed part of a group, but it will not be a support group.

 

Of course the Babble doesn't have anything in it about what unbelievers will actually experience after death; no one's been to death and back to tell us what happens. You'd think the so-called "handbook for life" as some like to think of it would have some reliable information about that, if it's so important. All it has are recycled pagan myths, all of which are older than Xianity and hereby discredit Xianity's claim to exclusive truth.

 

“Then why avoid sin if it isn't an issue?”

 

Well, from the standpoint of unbelievers, I can’t really say that there is much of a reason beyond reaping what you sow. Have at it if that’s what makes you happy, albeit only temporarily. But for believers, there are at least two issues. First, God is a masterful parent to His kids and He will not hesitate to spank them if necessary. (I know this from the Bible and personal experience. I wish I had learned a lot of lessons on an academic basis rather than the hard way). Second is the issue of reward. The down side of “lay up treasure for yourself” is that believers can choose not to.

 

What the hell are you talking about? None of that answers my question. I know what the choices are, especially according to Xianity. If sin isn't an issue, then why bother avoiding it? If there are circumstances in which your god would ignore sin, then clearly avoiding it isn't nearly the big deal most Xians make it out to be.

 

“If I'm already damned, then why a trial? Sounds like a mock trial to me.”

 

God does not skip the formalities. Old Testament saints were held up in paradise (the “cool” side of sheol) until after atonement was accomplished.

 

That answers my question even less. If I am damned, then why is there supposedly a "trial" before your god? It is a mock trial if there is no chance of being found anything other than guilty.

 

“And why would a Jewish tribal god utilize a system of jurisprudence developed by pagan Anglo-Saxons?”

 

Ours is a mimic of His, not the other way around.

 

That also does not answer my question. Furthermore, what proof do you have that any human system of jurisprudence is in any way based on a supernatural one? A Jewish tribal god would have no knowledge of European systems of jurisprudence, and hence any claims that it would are fallacious.

 

I appreciate the fact that you got around to responding, but if you can't actually answer my questions, don't dance around them.

 

Or admit that Xianity doesn't have any answers...

[dr_funkenstein]

Ours is a mimic of His, not the other way around.

 

I love this mentality!

 

It couldn't possibly be that when humans invented their God, they anthropomorphised him into an image of themselves... No! Rather, we are in the image of God! That explains the similarities... yeah!

[txviper]

OM,

 

"Why would you care if you "see" your family at "the marriage supper" if "Familial relationships are not perpetuated after death"??????"

 

I don't really dwell on my family. I don't need to. But I don't think biological relationships will have the same meaning. Marriages are the most intimate relationships, but they don't exist there so I expect blood ralationships to be different also.

 

 

"And exactly how would it be "heaven" if you were without the love you shared here on earth within your "familial relationships"?"

 

Things like this are very meaningful now. They will not be then.

 

==============

 

Wolfheart,

 

"Of course the Babble doesn't have anything in it about what unbelievers will actually experience after death"

 

Sure it does. Luke 16, Lazarus and the rich man. Unbelievers will be in torments "in this flame".

 

 

"no one's been to death and back to tell us what happens."

 

Not that I am personally aware of. As a side note, for entertainment purposes only, there is a Tennessee heart surgeon named Maurice Rawlings who has written about some of his experiences, apparently enough to change his life. Very interesting reading. You can find some of it online.

 

 

"If sin isn't an issue, then why bother avoiding it? If there are circumstances in which your god would ignore sin, then clearly avoiding it isn't nearly the big deal most Xians make it out to be."

 

I think your question is about my beliefs on hell and how to get there. I have a different take on this than lots of mainstream preachers and evangelists. I once heard a big name guy one Sunday morning say something like "you can trust in Christ to pay the price for you are you can pay the price for your own sins". I think this idea is clearly wrong. All the sins were paid for at the crucifixion. The issue in being saved is about nothing more than recognizing that, and having proper regard for the One who pulled it off. There are boatloads of junk that people are inclined to attach to this simple truth, but Jesus said "He that believeth...." and that you have to be born again. The belief causes the rebirth.

 

 

"If I am damned, then why is there supposedly a "trial" before your god?"

 

I don't suppose I have a satisfactory answer for you since I am not the Judge.

 

 

"what proof do you have that any human system of jurisprudence is in any way based on a supernatural one?"

 

Judges, advocacy, witnesses, conviction, punishment, etc. are pretty old concepts at this point.

[Lycorth]

"Of course the Babble doesn't have anything in it about what unbelievers will actually experience after death"

 

Sure it does. Luke 16, Lazarus and the rich man. Unbelievers will be in torments "in this flame".

 

Ah yes, there is some reference after all. But the Babblical author here speaks of something and yet fails to include evidence. Again, one of the biggest problems with the Scripchahs, like Thomas Paine touched on, is that it is all hearsay. It's one thing to claim there is a hell for sinners to roast, but it's quite another to prove it really exists. Surely a god who loves us that much would give us some genuine proof to help keep us on the straight and narrow, eh?

 

My bad for forgetting Luke, but then again you yourself said "I don’t know of anything in the Bible which indicates that unbelievers will feel anything but isolation after death." in a post of yours above. I may be guilty of omission, but you just contradicted yourself.

 

Not that I am personally aware of. As a side note, for entertainment purposes only, there is a Tennessee heart surgeon named Maurice Rawlings who has written about some of his experiences, apparently enough to change his life. Very interesting reading. You can find some of it online.

 

No, thanks. There are dozens of so-called returns from death and the visions people saw. There is still a lack of real proof that they are seeing what really lies beyond, or images manufactured by their own minds. Ironically, though, such things are more consistent than the Babble, which first speaks of no hell at all then is brimming over with tales about it.

 

I think your question is about my beliefs on hell and how to get there. I have a different take on this than lots of mainstream preachers and evangelists. I once heard a big name guy one Sunday morning say something like "you can trust in Christ to pay the price for you are you can pay the price for your own sins". I think this idea is clearly wrong. All the sins were paid for at the crucifixion. The issue in being saved is about nothing more than recognizing that, and having proper regard for the One who pulled it off. There are boatloads of junk that people are inclined to attach to this simple truth, but Jesus said "He that believeth...." and that you have to be born again. The belief causes the rebirth.

 

My question is about the reasons sin should be avoided if sin, by definition most often an action performed by humans, cannot actually damn us. If we are judged by our faith, then actions, like sin, cannot have any real influence on how your god views us. So long as we believe in Jesus, that's enough. Like you noted, Jesus said "he that believeth..." Hence, sin is irrelevant.

 

Of course, other parts of the Babble teach to avoid sin, so as usual, the Babble is in contradiction with itself.

 

I don't suppose I have a satisfactory answer for you since I am not the Judge.

 

Or because there isn't an answer. You're falling back on a tired, old Xian defense when one of the Babble's unintelligble teachings are called on the carpet, the "it's a mystery of Gawd" one. You and I both know there is no such trial for there cannot be a trial when the defendant is already condemned.

 

Judges, advocacy, witnesses, conviction, punishment, etc. are pretty old concepts at this point.

 

Yes - human concepts. There is no evidence that there exists any sort of supernatural system of justice that is similar to the various human models. It's another notion Xianity brainwashes into its followers, that Gawd is the author of all things, and humanity cannot have come up with anything of its own on its own.

 

And how can there be "advocacy" if the damned are damned? Who would advocate for them, or even want to, considering they'd have to go up against Biblegodzilla? You're applying human concepts to the Creator without any evidence at all to back it up.

[dr_funkenstein]

"If I am damned, then why is there supposedly a "trial" before your god?"

 

I don't suppose I have a satisfactory answer for you since I am not the Judge.

Translation: I've been told not to think about this one so I won't. This is one of those concepts that gets too complicated, so I'll just lump it in the "The Lord works in mysterious ways" basket.

 

"what proof do you have that any human system of jurisprudence is in any way based on a supernatural one?"

 

Judges, advocacy, witnesses, conviction, punishment, etc. are pretty old concepts at this point.

Oh right. So according to you because something is old, that makes it from God, does it? That proves the supernatural, does it?

 

Well then prostitution must be based on God as well - it's pretty damn old too!

[Asuryan]

I think Jesus' death was still a sacrifice in the story. He turned himself in rather then had his followers fight and die against the Roman guard for him. His followers where then able to flee and scatter.

 

There's a problem here, in my point of view of course.

We're talking about an entity that was able to multiply 2 breads and 5 fishes to feed thousands of people, turning water into wine, making dead people walk, making blind people see and cripples walk and so on.

He could've lifted up his hand in the air, snapped his fingers, and *poof*, his followers and himself would've been instantly teleported somewhere without no danger. Or *poof* the soldiers would've suddenly become meek and thrown their weapons to the ground. He chose not to. He of course had the power to avoid the suffering and blood spilling and stop the persecutions altogether AND of course wash human sins without the death and blood washing... after all he *is* all-powerful, right?

 

He had the powers to avoid all the "pain, sacrifice, blood, tears, torture" part and *still* save humanity from sin. To me, his "sacrifice" was totally useless because he could've avoided it altogether thanks to those powers (and if you can use your powers to make everybody drunk at a party, and kill a poor defenseless fig tree, I can't see why you couldn't use your powers to avoid bad things like the aforementioned (moreover, Peter died on the cross just the same, some years later, so Jesus with his powers could've avoided that too... had he only wanted).

 

Let's say that a man is putting a nail through a wall. By banging violently his head against the nail as if it was a hammer. He's got a hammer in his right hand. He's not using it. He keeps smashing his head against the wall and nail until the nail manages to enter just a tiny bit inside the wall: the man's face is now a mask of blood and he has probably took some skull damage from all that bashing head against the wall.

When questioned about this, he answers proudly: "I wanted to put up a painting for you. Look at me, look at my SACRIFICE, I bled so much and damaged my skull just for YOU because I LOVE you!!". [Notice how you didn't even ask him to put up a painting for you. It was his initiative]

Your eyes notice the hammer he keeps in his right hand and he's not using at all.

Now either you ask him if he's fucking crazy (and he will use his hammer to hurt you and hurt you and hurt you forever and ever and ever and ever while you roast in flames just to be sure...)... or you back up towards the door... steadily... hoping he doesn't notice... and then call the nearest psychiatric hospital.

 

Man -> jesus

Hammer -> Magickal Jesus spells (miracles)

Painting -> soul salvation

Sacrifice -> WTF?

[thunderbolt]

He had the powers to avoid all the "pain, sacrifice, blood, tears, torture" part and *still* save humanity from sin. To me, his "sacrifice" was totally useless because he could've avoided it altogether thanks to those powers (and if you can use your powers to make everybody drunk at a party, and kill a poor defenseless fig tree, I can't see why you couldn't use your powers to avoid bad things like the aforementioned (moreover, Peter died on the cross just the same, some years later, so Jesus with his powers could've avoided that too... had he only wanted).

True Asuryan

 

And if he did, then the story would have been much more in unison with the Old Testament story of Abraham having to offer up his son, but being spared the ultimate price because of his obedience. It's just a hacked story to make sense of Jesus' death - provided he actually lived.

 

But that’s the problem with the Christian atonement story, there is a big gaping hole in it, no matter what angle you look at it from. If Jesus had to “pay” then there was no forgiveness, because God’s wrath was still “avenged.” I.E. – God didn’t forgive if he had to punish “himself.” Forgiveness would have been to let the innocent party in this case (Jesus) get off free without requiring a penalty. I know the fundy is going to rip out verses about “blood” and “sacrifice” which is totally out of context – the point is, if God could do it for Abraham, then surely God could do it for “himself.”

 

So, yeah, analogy totally useless.

[SkepticOfBible]

Pritish,

 

“Do you mean

1)For believers:Degree of Reward

2)For Unbelievers:Degree of Punishment”

 

Absolutely on point 1. I’m not as surefooted on point 2.

 

 

On what basis do believerrs get rewarded in heaven?And I thought good works doesn't matter to the christian god?What's slogan used by evangelist - "Good Works Won't Get You Anywhere".

 

 

“do unbelievers also include the jews who died in the holocaust?”

 

“Chosen People” status has to do with an unconditional covenant between God and Abraham. Christ was in the midst of them when He clarified the terms. “He that believeth……”

 

I see, so the Jews who died in the holocaust did not obviously believe in christ. So I guess you are saying that they are suffering in Hell for their unbelief.

[Lycorth]

He had the powers to avoid all the "pain, sacrifice, blood, tears, torture" part and *still* save humanity from sin. To me, his "sacrifice" was totally useless because he could've avoided it altogether thanks to those powers (and if you can use your powers to make everybody drunk at a party, and kill a poor defenseless fig tree, I can't see why you couldn't use your powers to avoid bad things like the aforementioned (moreover, Peter died on the cross just the same, some years later, so Jesus with his powers could've avoided that too... had he only wanted).

True Asuryan

 

And if he did, then the story would have been much more in unison with the Old Testament story of Abraham having to offer up his son, but being spared the ultimate price because of his obedience. It's just a hacked story to make sense of Jesus' death - provided he actually lived.

 

But that’s the problem with the Christian atonement story, there is a big gaping hole in it, no matter what angle you look at it from. If Jesus had to “pay” then there was no forgiveness, because God’s wrath was still “avenged.” I.E. – God didn’t forgive if he had to punish “himself.” Forgiveness would have been to let the innocent party in this case (Jesus) get off free without requiring a penalty. I know the fundy is going to rip out verses about “blood” and “sacrifice” which is totally out of context – the point is, if God could do it for Abraham, then surely God could do it for “himself.”

 

So, yeah, analogy totally useless.

 

Yes, and to me it just seems sick that Jesus™ wouldn't do a damn thing to avoid all the suffering and torment his followers would have to go through in subsequent ages, all on his account. All the missionaries tortured, eaten alive, forced underground, and otherwise persecuted for Xianity; Jesus™ knew this would happen, yet he went ahead and did as he did, anyway. He knew innocent folks would suffer for him, being all-knowing and so on, but does that matter? No, the pride - the inestimable and utterly overwhemling arrogance - of Biblegodzilla needs to be appeased, and one of the best ways to appease it is to die in his name and for his bastard son.

 

I can just see Jesus™ whacking off on his holy throne throughout the ages, watching people suffer and die and endure persecution for him. Nothing gets the Xian god off like blood and tears and death in his name, it would seem.