ironhorse Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 I am following Jesus. I have given him everything over to him. I gave the historical context of the first few chapters in Acts as to why they were pooling their funds together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Furball Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 I am a member of a small Baptist church. -We give money and food to a local food bank -We have given money to help families who are struggling -We have given clothing and toys On a positive note, this is actually refreshing to hear ironhorse. I get so tired of hearing christians say they have to pray for god to do something, when they should just do what they can themselves. Good for you for helping people out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 mymistake, My church is led by a scam artist? You don't even know my pastor. Do you think what my church does is bad? I don't mind discussing things. I don't mind you disagreeing with anything I post, but can we be at least be fair? "Scam artist" is fair. Does he admit that there is no reason to believe Christ even existed? Does he admit that there is no reason to believe any afterlife exists? Does he admit that attending church is a waste of time? Does he admit that paying him is a waste of money? Of course he doesn't because he is a scam artist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VacuumFlux Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 As for Ironhorse, I have to say he's right in that the A&S story in Acts is about lying, not about any certain amount of money. I don't believe the whole story anymore, it was probably written to strike fear in the hearts of the converts, but let's not make the Bible say something it doesn't. I'd always heard that it was about the lying. There's even a bit of dialog that's something like "While you owned the property, it was yours to do with as you wished, and no one demanded you sell it all. Why in the world did you think that lying about it was a good idea?" I don't remember that story being used to talk about tithing, it was always more about how it's bad to put on a show of being super spiritual in order to impress other church people. I always thought the death thing was excessive, but the moral of the story is something a lot of church people really needed to hear. It was usually the Melchizedek verses (the OT ones) and the Jewish theocratic laws that were used to say you should give 10%. The verses in the NT were used to say that you should be cheerful about giving at least that much. Occasionally some OT verses were used to say that God would rather not have your money than you give it with a bad heart, but the general idea was that if you really loved god, you'd happily give your money away to the church. But I've never been at a church that checked your income or gave student discounts; even my 10% before taxes parents would probably have been uncomfortable with that. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GraphicsGuy Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 "Scam artist" is fair. Does he admit that there is no reason to believe Christ even existed? Does he admit that there is no reason to believe any afterlife exists? Does he admit that attending church is a waste of time? Does he admit that paying him is a waste of money? Of course he doesn't because he is a scam artist. I wouldn't agree with the "scam artist" title for most pastors. Most pastors are simply just as deluded/indoctrinated as we once were. Yes, there are likely some who don't believe what they are preaching from the pulpit, but I would venture that these types are the ones that are the travelling "evangelists" or the ones who run mega-churches. You can tell when someone's priority is money or in just wanting to "help" people. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 I wouldn't agree with the "scam artist" title for most pastors. Most pastors are simply just as deluded/indoctrinated as we once were. Yes, there are likely some who don't believe what they are preaching from the pulpit, but I would venture that these types are the ones that are the travelling "evangelists" or the ones who run mega-churches. You can tell when someone's priority is money or in just wanting to "help" people. Do you feel the same way about palm readers and psychics? As long as they really believe what they say it isn't a con? Sure they use most of the money they make to pay themselves and provide their place of business but as long as the palm reader donates a token amount to a real charity does it count as helping people? Personally I see no difference between a palm reader, priest, psychic or a pastor. They just sell a different story depending on what type of believer they are looking to catch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GraphicsGuy Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 Do you feel the same way about palm readers and psychics? As long as they really believe what they say it isn't a con? I don't see schools devoted to teaching palm readers and psychics. Conning someone is about intent. When I look at most pastors and think of the pastors that I have "served" under, I see deluded people leading other people into their delusion. It doesn't make it right, but their intentions are usually quite honest. Misguided from our point-of-view, but honest. Hell, we're being conned to believe lies all the time from a hundred sources a day. That's why critical thinking is essential for everyone, but most people don't engage in life at that level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 Conning someone is about intent. That is the heart of our disagreement. The trouble with your way of looking at it is that a really good scam artist will convince you that he doesn't have bad intent and we don't have any way to read minds. So it would only be a scam if the pastor slips up and admits he doesn't really believe. That is how we wind up with millionaire televangelists and also child molesting Christian leaders, all of whom protest their sincere belief. In my way of looking at it people who start a pyramid scam without realizing it is wrong are still scam artists. Ignorance and delusion are not a proper defense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GraphicsGuy Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 I just think it is unfair to paint a pastor that does genuine pastoral care - visits the sick, the infirm, the prisoner, etc., drives a basic car, lives in a small house, etc. - and the millionaire televangelist with the same brush. Now, either one of them could be a child molester, but until the cops arrest him, I'll stick up for the poor pastor who I see as trying his best to be a decent human being (as long as he's not gay-bashing or has some other super-fundy ideas). As for the televangelist...well, go ahead and drown them all in paint. They do love their Mammon more than people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 I am following Jesus. I have given him everything over to him. I gave the historical context of the first few chapters in Acts as to why they were pooling their funds together. Please confirm that you own NO worldly goods, Ironhorse. No home, no car, no books, no computer, etc. That is what giving everything over to him means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 I just think it is unfair to paint a pastor that does genuine pastoral care - visits the sick, the infirm, the prisoner, etc., drives a basic car, lives in a small house, etc. - and the millionaire televangelist with the same brush. I didn't. If you sell a product then you have a duty to the consumer to make sure that product is real. These "small house" pastors you cite live off of the money they gain from selling a fake product. Self delusion is not an acceptable excuse. These pastors are making their money off of some of the poorest members of society that have been brainwashed into giving pennies if pennies are all they can afford. And the pastors just rake it in without noticing what they do? That makes them scam artists one way or another. I don't care if they are delusional or not. In my opinion itent isn't what makes it a scam. Heaven not being real is what makes it a scam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 I am following Jesus. I have given him everything over to him. I gave the historical context of the first few chapters in Acts as to why they were pooling their funds together. Please confirm that you own NO worldly goods, Ironhorse. No home, no car, no books, no computer, etc. That is what giving everything over to him means. Don't you know that when Jesus said "sell all you own and give to the poor" that was a metaphor for "oppose the rights for same sex marriage"? That is why Christians do one yet never the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdelsolray Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 The first few chapters Acts records the time when the early Christians banded together and sold all their property to help the struggling church. Ananias and wife lied when they presented the money as being all the money. Question about what good does my gifts do. I am a member of a small Baptist church. -We give money and food to a local food bank -We have given money to help families who are struggling -We have given clothing and toys -Our offerings pay our pastor's modest salary. He works 40 plus hours a week driving a bread delivery truck -We give money to support missionaries and overseas charities a few things my church does Helping the less fortunate is a good action. Some organizations sole purpose is to help the less fortunate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 mymistake, My church is led by a scam artist? You don't even know my pastor. Do you think what my church does is bad? I don't mind discussing things. I don't mind you disagreeing with anything I post, but can we be at least be fair? A pastor is one who helps propagate fear, shame and guilt under the guise of love. Do you fear God? Do you fear expressing ideas against him? Do you fear embracing ideas that are anti-biblical? If so, your pastor has been successful. MM believes pastoral work to be a scam. I would agree. It's just that right now, selling the non-existent product of Jesus Christ is acceptable and goes unquestioned. Well, not completely unquestioned. Churches are closing and membership is down (according to another thread) so people are at least recognizing the baloney that church really is and are opting out. Churches are pointless, old fashioned wastes of time and money. Why does someone need to go to church or deal with a pastor in order to speak to their God? It's a meaningless tradition for the sake of tradition, imo. A pastor is just someone who recites absurd mumbo jumbo that doesnt accomplish anything, while people revere his absurd mumbo jumbo as something of significance as he is 'a man of the cloth' . Big deal. I havent been to church in 15 years nor needed a pastor's 'services' since they dont really do anything important. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 I am following Jesus. I have given him everything over to him. I gave the historical context of the first few chapters in Acts as to why they were pooling their funds together. Acts 2 : 42 - 47. 42 They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. 43 Everyone was filled with awe at the many wonders and signs performed by the apostles. 44 All the believers were together and had everything in common. 45 They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need. 46 Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, 47 praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved. Acts 4 : 32 - 36. 32 All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of their possessions was their own, but they shared everything they had. 33 With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And God’s grace was so powerfully at work in them all 34 that there were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned land or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales 35 and put it at the apostles’ feet, and it was distributed to anyone who had need. 36 Joseph, a Levite from Cyprus, whom the apostles called Barnabas (which means “son of encouragement”), 37 sold a field he owned and brought the money and put it at the apostles’ feet. You're telling us that none of your possessions are your own, Ironhorse? That you share all that you have with your fellow Christians? That you hold your family home, your car, your clothes and your bank account in common with your fellow Christians? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Furball Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 About pastors. I was shocked when i heard bart ehrman say that all pastors while training for their pastorate were taught that the bible is riddled with contradictions and mistakes. Then why do they go into the pulpits and hold the bible up and say out loud that they believe the bible to be the infallible word of god? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 Let's pretend there is a grade school where a student named Sam attends. Let's pretend that Sam convinces 10 other students to willingly give him their lunch money of $2 per day and in exchange Sam is going to write a special letter to Santa Claus so these 10 students will get anything they want for Christmas. They believe they will get anything they ask for at all. So for 18 weeks, 5 days a week, Sam is paid $2 by 10 students. Sam takes home 18x5x2x10 = $1,800.00. Then Christmas break comes along. All ten students give Sam their wild list of requests for Santa. Then as Christmas rolls around every single one realizes it doesn't work. Despite all the complaints Sam chooses to keep the money. Was Sam not a scam artist if he honestly deluded himself into thinking Santa would grant the wishes? Pastors do the same thing every single day but the only difference is that nobody comes back from the dead to complain that there is no heaven and no Jesus. So the scam never gets uncovered. But the pastors keep the money and enjoy spending it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted July 16, 2015 Author Share Posted July 16, 2015 Here's a follow up. There seems to be a video at this link showing the full letter. Apparently, this is happening more often now. http://www.abcactionnews.com/news/hillsborough-regional-news/church-members-complain-about-collection-notices Can you say 'sinking ship', kiddies? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted July 16, 2015 Author Share Posted July 16, 2015 Read down to where it explains why a Florida church lost its tax exempt status... Fucking unbelievable. http://www.rawstory.com/2015/07/florida-church-sends-1000-collection-notice-to-single-mother-because-she-didnt-tithe/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EyesOpened Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Why does the church need money from people at all? I thought you were suppose to have nothing and God would provide for you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castiel233 Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 This is one of the reasons I started doubting religion and the Bible in general. The preacher got up on the pulpit one morning and starting a sermon on tithing. He said my money belonged to God and I owed the Church 10% of my gross monthly income, not what I have leftover but 10% off the top before taxes, bills, and so forth. I God owns the whole Universe, literally everything from atom to atom bomb....yet He needs His preachers to be given paper currency.......funny that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castiel233 Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Read down to where it explains why a Florida church lost its tax exempt status... Fucking unbelievable. http://www.rawstory.com/2015/07/florida-church-sends-1000-collection-notice-to-single-mother-because-she-didnt-tithe/ Why doesn't she just talk to Jesus at home for nothing....why the need for a special "magical" building.... Can't God hear them if they are at home....is that why the go to church, to bleat in groups in the hope that the sound will carry quicker to Heaven....... Idiots Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burny Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Tithing in the OT was never about cash. It only applied to some forms of harvested goods and was given to the Levites. This is so easy to research, yet nobody bothers. The NT version of Jesus couldn't be any clearer on what his followers should do with not only their possessions but also their cold, hard cash, their families and their time. (http://godisimaginary.com/i19.htm) The one thing that drove me nuts when I was a xtian was how blatantly other xtians ignored the clear teachings of Jesus. This showed me that indeed, most don't really believe in him. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justus Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Shouldn't you give up ALL your worldly goods and follow Jesus by faith, just as he commands you to, Ironhorse? There are Ex-Christians on this site who have done exactly this. I take it you are referring unto the passages of Matthew, Mark and Luke in which the young ruler inquired about inheriting eternal life was told to sell all that he had. "For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not" Do you know the Commandments? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Shouldn't you give up ALL your worldly goods and follow Jesus by faith, just as he commands you to, Ironhorse? There are Ex-Christians on this site who have done exactly this. I take it you are referring unto the passages of Matthew, Mark and Luke in which the young ruler inquired about inheriting eternal life was told to sell all that he had. Yes. "For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not" Do you know the Commandments? Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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