Your God Is Too Small

[sdelsolray]

...

To overlook and not comment as to why you think my view is cherry-picking,

can you offer more of a reason than just accusing me of cherry-picking?

 

If you find this "cherry picking" in the two links I posted, please quote them and comment.

 

Thanks

 

 

 

I find cherry-picking in your choices of which webpages you cut and paste here.  And yes, there is cherry-picking all the way down, including within those sites.  I'm not going to waste my time being your research assistant.  After all, you're the forum expert skeptic when it comes to Biblical matters, right?  Do the hard work yourself.

[Jeff]

I rarely am interested in what the bible says about anything since I no longer believe it to be devinely inspired.

 

Further research on any topic is just like studying what the Koran says about anything. It is irrelevant to my life.

We post these verses because You believe.

 

I like to remind you IH that the best answer to these dilemma is that they conflict because they conflict. There is nothing to resolve. They conflict and it only matters to apologists who are trying to resolve the mess.

[ironhorse]

Okay, Ironhorse, you would like for us to take a more "global" look at the scriptures instead of just focusing on one little theological tidbit.  Fair enough.  I have a question for you then:

 

What language did people speak before the Tower of Babel?

 

(Hint: you'll find god's answer to this question in Acts chapter 2).

 

Do you still think the Pentecostals are wrong?

 

 

I don’t know. I do know that in Genesis 10:5 it says the descendants of Shem, Ham, and Japheth became different nations, each with their own language. Genesis 11:1 says they spoke the same language. Some scholars explain this discrepancy by saying that the order of the narrative is not the same as the order of events. There is also a Sumerian myth similar to that of the Tower of Babel.

 

 

Then when the actual day of Pentecost came they were all assembled together. Suddenly there was a sound from heaven like the rushing of a violent wind, and it filled the whole house where they were seated. Before their eyes appeared tongues like flames which separated off and settled above the head of each one of them. They were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in different languages as the Spirit gave them power to proclaim his message.

~ Acts 2:1-4 (Phillips)

 

They spoke in different languages. This miracle helped to spread the Gospel to all the visitors to Jerusalem who were from other countries.

 

 

Yes, they are wrong if they insist speaking in tongues is some extra blessing to empower or make a believer more spiritual. They may be sincere but they are sincerely wrong.

[bornagainathiest]

 

Okay, Ironhorse, you would like for us to take a more "global" look at the scriptures instead of just focusing on one little theological tidbit.  Fair enough.  I have a question for you then:

 

What language did people speak before the Tower of Babel?

 

(Hint: you'll find god's answer to this question in Acts chapter 2).

 

Do you still think the Pentecostals are wrong?

 

 

I don’t know. I do know that in Genesis 10:5 it says the descendants of Shem, Ham, and Japheth became different nations, each with their own language. Genesis 11:1 says they spoke the same language. Some scholars explain this discrepancy by saying that the order of the narrative is not the same as the order of events. There is also a Sumerian myth similar to that of the Tower of Babel.

 

 

Then when the actual day of Pentecost came they were all assembled together. Suddenly there was a sound from heaven like the rushing of a violent wind, and it filled the whole house where they were seated. Before their eyes appeared tongues like flames which separated off and settled above the head of each one of them. They were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in different languages as the Spirit gave them power to proclaim his message.

~ Acts 2:1-4 (Phillips)

 

They spoke in different languages. This miracle helped to spread the Gospel to all the visitors to Jerusalem who were from other countries.

 

 

Yes, they are wrong if they insist speaking in tongues is some extra blessing to empower or make a believer more spiritual. They may be sincere but they are sincerely wrong.

 

 

Still doesn't get it, does he Florduh?

[florduh]

Still doesn't get it, does he Florduh?

 

Not a clue.

[bornagainathiest]

 

Still doesn't get it, does he Florduh?

 

Not a clue.

 

 

[Jeff]

???? Nope. I still don't see it guys. - IH probably

[Jeff]

???? I see no contradictions. I have faith. And if there are contradictions I will pray to understand them better since they obviously aren't contradictions because I have faith.

[ironhorse]

 

 

 

“I do not pretend to understand the ways of God any more than the next man; but it is surely more fitting as well as more sensible for us to study what God does do and what He does not do as He works in and through the complex fabric of this disintegrated world, than to postulate what we think God ought to do and then feel demoralized and bitterly disappointed because He fails to fulfill what we expect of Him."

~ Your God is Too Small

 

Phillips is not saying God has failed us, he is saying we have failed in our perceptions of God and what we think he should do. This is the theme of the book.

Again my faith in Christ is not based on me fully understanding any discrepancies or contradictions I find in some passages.

[Guest Furball]

Again my faith in Christ is not based on me fully understanding any discrepancies or contradictions I find in some passages.

Ok, I am just trying to understand you here. Since you admit you have found discrepancies and contradictions in the bible, then what do you base your faith on? How do you know that the scriptures you do base your faith on are correct since you admit that other parts of the scriptures contain discrepancies and contradictions? You cannot hold the bible as the infallible word of god, then admit that there are fallible parts and then say in the same breath again that you believe the bible is wholly true. Please correct me if I am wrong, but in spite of the bible containing contradictions and discrepancies, you pick the verses that you think are true and stick to those? I'm just trying to understand your line of thinking, that is all. If you could shed some light on what your exact beliefs on the bible are I would be able to understand better where you are coming from. Thank you. 

[ironhorse]

furball,

 

Those are some good questions and I see how your view of what I am saying might seem confusing.Please give me a little time to put together a reply and I will post soon. Thanks

[Margee]

furball,

 

Those are some good questions and I see how your view of what I am saying might seem confusing.Please give me a little time to put together a reply and I will post soon. Thanks

 

Win us back to god ironhorse. Win us all back..... but make it make sense.  And please don't tell me I have to do it 'by faith'. Prove your god.

[ironhorse]

My reply to furball's request:

 

First, let me affirm that the scriptures are correct in fulfilling their primary purpose: revealing God, God's vision, God's purposes, and God's good news to humanity. These main themes in the Bible are clearly stated.

The Bible not only reveals the Word of God, It also reveals vivid descriptions of human struggles and experiences. It does not hide or sugar coat anything. This also makes it a very human book.

The terms “infallible” or "inerrancy" are not found in the scriptures.

This is part of what I posted on the “Trust Yourself” thread (post#222) in reply to a member's questions:

 

I have known early on that the scriptures contained passages that are often viewed as contradictions and some are very difficult to explain and others, with further study, have a reasonable explanation. The discrepancies I cannot find an answer for do not deter me in my faith or my trust in the scriptures.

[Jeff]

So the discrepancies are part of scriptures... And you are not deterred in your trust of scripture... Which has discrepancies... So your trust is therefore in a flawed scriptures.

 

And as florduh has so clearly stated "you just don't see it do you?"

 

IH. This I think is a decent example of circular logic that you fail to acknowledge as such.

(Edit: I'm not sure if this counts as circular logic but it is a line of reasoning that seems very flawed, but then again you trust flawed scripture so no surprise that you trust flawed logic. You are consistent.)

[♦ ficino ♦]

Ironhorse continues to skirt around the problem. Furball has joined many others in demanding that Ironhorse come clean and admit that his Bible contains errors. So far he doesn't want to admit that but he doesn't want to commit himself to holding and defending that position rigorously, so he fudges and says he doesn't want to use the word "inerrancy" and so on. He also takes refuge in a namby-pamby "viewed as contradictions" line. Just admit that the f-cking collection of writings contains contradictions!

 

But notice that Ironhorse did let slip an important admission. He did not say that the scripture is God's Word. He said that it reveals the word of God.

 

Theologically, this is a big difference. The "scripture contains/reveals God's word" line is consistent with liberal Christianity, not with fundamentalism.

 

So Ironhorse, are you leaning toward a liberal version of Protestantism?

[florduh]

Yes, as noted, "IS God's word" and "CONTAINS God's word" delineate a major schism of theological thought and religious belief.

 

I have to side with the inerrant crowd on this one. The reason is that Jesus, Christianity, the whole deal comes from a single source, the Bible. If that book contains untruths and errors, you really have nothing on which to base your faith in the characters of that story. A real God could and would produce and preserve his message to his audience, and those who insist the book must therefore be inerrant are being logically consistent within this framework.

[midniterider]

My reply to furball's request:

 

First, let me affirm that the scriptures are correct in fulfilling their primary purpose: revealing God, God's vision, God's purposes, and God's good news to humanity. These main themes in the Bible are clearly stated.

The Bible not only reveals the Word of God, It also reveals vivid descriptions of human struggles and experiences. It does not hide or sugar coat anything. This also makes it a very human book.

The terms “infallible” or "inerrancy" are not found in the scriptures.

This is part of what I posted on the “Trust Yourself” thread (post#222) in reply to a member's questions:

 

I have known early on that the scriptures contained passages that are often viewed as contradictions and some are very difficult to explain and others, with further study, have a reasonable explanation. The discrepancies I cannot find an answer for do not deter me in my faith or my trust in the scriptures.

 

So the Word of God contains discrepancies and contradictions. Ok. 

 

The terms infallible and inerrant are not found in your bible. No problem.

 

So the Word of God is fallible? The Word of God has errors? God allowed errors in his book. Hmmm.

 

If there are errors, discrepancies and contradictions in the bible, then why would you have faith or trust in the other parts?

 

....

 

I dont think there is really any reason to trust the bible at all, errors or no errors. The only reason I trusted it as a Christian is because people at church told me I should. The in-crowd was doing it.

[ironhorse]

So the discrepancies are part of scriptures... And you are not deterred in your trust of scripture... Which has discrepancies... So your trust is therefore in a flawed scriptures.

 

And as florduh has so clearly stated "you just don't see it do you?"

 

IH. This I think is a decent example of circular logic that you fail to acknowledge as such.

(Edit: I'm not sure if this counts as circular logic but it is a line of reasoning that seems very flawed, but then again you trust flawed scripture so no surprise that you trust flawed logic. You are consistent.)

 

 

"So the discrepancies are part of scriptures... And you are not deterred in your trust of scripture... Which has discrepancies... So your trust is therefore in a flawed scriptures." ~Jeff

 

This is what I stated:

 

I have known early on that the scriptures contained passages that are often viewed as contradictions and some are very difficult to explain and others, with further study, have a reasonable explanation. The discrepancies I cannot find an answer for do not deter me in my faith or my trust in the scriptures.

 

At the moment I cannot think of a discrepancy I have been unable to find an answer for, I will try to remember and post one later on.

 

I’m sure most know of the verse that says the rabbit chews it cud. This is in disagreement with what we now know about rabbits. Rabbits do not chew a cud like a cow but from a distance they can appear to be chewing a cud. So the OT writer was describing what he saw. He wasn’t quoting God. It was his description.

 

So I should throw out the scriptures because a guy was describing what he thought he saw a rabbit doing? Not me. 

 

Remember the newspaper stands that said: Use any combination of coins.

And at the bottom it said: Does not accept pennies.

Now is that a contradiction or a clarification?

 

The first thread pinned at the top of the Lion’s Den titled “Question For Christians About Biblical Inerrancy” is well worth reading for any member or guest here who would like to read both sides of this issue. It is 101 pages long.

 

Those opposed to the Christian point of view were vigorous in their charges and rebuttals.

 

The Christians in that thread, I think, did a great job in defense of the Bible. They also were aggressive in their defense of the Bible.

 

Two examples:

 

“In all honesty - many on this site do claim to know the Bible. But in my conversations, I have come across sheer lack of knowledge of the Scriptures, lousy hermeneutics, shockingly superficial & wooden literalistic interpretations, failure to trace doctrines throughout the Bible, inability to understand context, failure to take into account genre, etc.”

~ rayskidude

 

“Try to understand what you are reading instead of trying to find reason to throw it out.”

~ the stranger

[bornagainathiest]

Ironhorse,

 

Aggressive in their defense of the Bible does not equal honest in their defense of the Bible.  At least, not when it comes to Rayskidude.  

.

.

.

Q.

Why is he no longer active in this forum?

 

A.

Because I exposed him as a blatant liar and he quit Ex-C shortly thereafter.

.

.

.

 

If you wish to hold up a liar as an example of someone who has done a great done defending the Bible, so be it.

[miamia]

you should always try to find a way to throw out everything you read. It's an effective way to learn. We have found that if we hold the things people tell us, and things we observe directly, to a certain standard of proof, using a specific process,  we can gather valid useful information, and use that information to improve lives, and gather more information that was before completely and utterly unavailable and incomprehensible to us. We have learned new things by skeptically appraising EVERYTHING. Finding a reason to believe something someone has told you is the opposite of logic. If everyone thought like this, the majority of "doctors" would still be puttering around trying to convince people that sickness is a punishment for a personal sin, making many miserable and healing  NO ONE, instead of looking at the tangible information in front of them, coming up with ways to find out whats wrong, and eventually producing a real cure, educating the public as to how different sicknesses work, how to prevent them, etc.

 

NOTHING is accomplished by those who obsessively pace the circumference of their comfort zone, shoring up its walls with unfalsifiable bullshit.

[Jeff]

IH cannot or will not be shaken.

He has faith in his flawed gospel that he cannot find flaws in.

 

bTW. Good point miamia

[sdelsolray]

Ironhorse's "skeptical appraisal" translates to "religious indoctrination, wishful thinking and confirmation bias".  The evidence is quite clear.  It helps to be cowardly, lazy, and to lack curiosity.  But many already suspected this shortly after he began posting on this forum in early 2015 (or was it 2014?).

 

I've decided to put him on ignore.  He is a waste of time.

[ironhorse]

you should always try to find a way to throw out everything you read. It's an effective way to learn. We have found that if we hold the things people tell us, and things we observe directly, to a certain standard of proof, using a specific process,  we can gather valid useful information, and use that information to improve lives, and gather more information that was before completely and utterly unavailable and incomprehensible to us. We have learned new things by skeptically appraising EVERYTHING. Finding a reason to believe something someone has told you is the opposite of logic. If everyone thought like this, the majority of "doctors" would still be puttering around trying to convince people that sickness is a punishment for a personal sin, making many miserable and healing  NO ONE, instead of looking at the tangible information in front of them, coming up with ways to find out whats wrong, and eventually producing a real cure, educating the public as to how different sicknesses work, how to prevent them, etc.

 

NOTHING is accomplished by those who obsessively pace the circumference of their comfort zone, shoring up its walls with unfalsifiable bullshit.

 

 

"NOTHING is accomplished by those who obsessively pace the circumference of their comfort zone, shoring up its walls with unfalsifiable bullshit."

 

I agree. 

 

The purpose for this thread was to offer members and guests a chance read about different views of God and how those view might limit or damage one's final perception of God. 

[bornagainathiest]

 

you should always try to find a way to throw out everything you read. It's an effective way to learn. We have found that if we hold the things people tell us, and things we observe directly, to a certain standard of proof, using a specific process,  we can gather valid useful information, and use that information to improve lives, and gather more information that was before completely and utterly unavailable and incomprehensible to us. We have learned new things by skeptically appraising EVERYTHING. Finding a reason to believe something someone has told you is the opposite of logic. If everyone thought like this, the majority of "doctors" would still be puttering around trying to convince people that sickness is a punishment for a personal sin, making many miserable and healing  NO ONE, instead of looking at the tangible information in front of them, coming up with ways to find out whats wrong, and eventually producing a real cure, educating the public as to how different sicknesses work, how to prevent them, etc.

 

NOTHING is accomplished by those who obsessively pace the circumference of their comfort zone, shoring up its walls with unfalsifiable bullshit.

 

 

"NOTHING is accomplished by those who obsessively pace the circumference of their comfort zone, shoring up its walls with unfalsifiable bullshit."

 

I agree. 

 

The purpose for this thread was to offer members and guests a chance read about different views of God and how those view might limit or damage one's final perception of God. 

 

 

If you agree, why is it that NOTHING will persuade you to leave your comfort zone, Ironhorse?

 

NOTHING will cause you to give up your faith - which is your comfort zone, isn't it?

[ironhorse]

 

 

you should always try to find a way to throw out everything you read. It's an effective way to learn. We have found that if we hold the things people tell us, and things we observe directly, to a certain standard of proof, using a specific process,  we can gather valid useful information, and use that information to improve lives, and gather more information that was before completely and utterly unavailable and incomprehensible to us. We have learned new things by skeptically appraising EVERYTHING. Finding a reason to believe something someone has told you is the opposite of logic. If everyone thought like this, the majority of "doctors" would still be puttering around trying to convince people that sickness is a punishment for a personal sin, making many miserable and healing  NO ONE, instead of looking at the tangible information in front of them, coming up with ways to find out whats wrong, and eventually producing a real cure, educating the public as to how different sicknesses work, how to prevent them, etc.

 

NOTHING is accomplished by those who obsessively pace the circumference of their comfort zone, shoring up its walls with unfalsifiable bullshit.

 

 

"NOTHING is accomplished by those who obsessively pace the circumference of their comfort zone, shoring up its walls with unfalsifiable bullshit."

 

I agree. 

 

The purpose for this thread was to offer members and guests a chance read about different views of God and how those view might limit or damage one's final perception of God. 

 

 

If you agree, why is it that NOTHING will persuade you to leave your comfort zone, Ironhorse?

 

NOTHING will cause you to give up your faith - which is your comfort zone, isn't it?

 

 

 

Thanks for your question BAA,

 

No, the comfort zone I was referring to is the "comfort zone' where one will not venture out to examine

other viewpoints. They do not want to rock their boat or seriously question their current viewpoint of a subject or topic. 

 

I have not kept count but my guess is that since I have been a member

here, I have posted more links to non-Christian sites, than to Christian only sites.