Kids Less Intelligent Than Ever

[Reverend AtheiStar]

http://www.concordmonitor.com/apps/pbcs.dl...42/1013/48HOURS

 

When students resist evolution lessons

Skeptical teens make teachersdo homework

 

 

By STEPHANIE SIMON

Los Angeles Times

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

April 10. 2006 8:00AM

 

 

Monday morning, Room 207: First day of a unit on the origins of life. Veteran biology teacher Al Frisby of Liberty, Mo., switches on the overhead projector and braces himself.

 

As his students rummage for their notebooks, Frisby introduces his central theme: Every creature on Earth has been shaped by random mutation and natural selection - in a word, by evolution.

 

The challenges begin at once.

 

"Isn't it true that mutations only make an animal weaker?"sophomore Chris Willett demands. "'Cause I was watching one time on CNN and they mutated monkeys to see if they could get one to become human and they couldn't."

 

Frisby tries to explain that evolution takes millions of years, but Willett isn't listening. "I feel a tail growing!" he calls to his friends, drawing laughter.

 

Unruffled, Frisby puts up a transparency tracing the evolution of the whale, from its ancient origins as a hoofed land animal through two lumbering transitional species and finally into the sea. He's about to start on the fossil evidence when sophomore Jeff Paul interrupts: "How are you 100 percent sure that those bones belong to those animals? It could just be some deformed raccoon."

At least half the students in this class of 14 don't believe Frisby, and they're not about to let him off easy.

 

Two decades of political and legal maneuvering on evolution has spilled over into public schools, and biology teachers are struggling to respond. Loyal to the accounts they've learned in church, students are taking it upon themselves to champion creationism in the classroom, sometimes with snide comments, but also with sophisticated questions - and a fervent faith.

 

As sophomore Daniel Read put it: "I'm going to say as much about God as I can in school, even if the teachers can't."

 

Such challenges have become so disruptive that some teachers dread the annual unit on evolution - or skip it altogether.

 

In response, the American Association for the Advancement of Science is distributing a 24-page guide to teaching the scientific principles behind evolution, starting in kindergarten. The group also has put out a list of talking points for teachers flustered by demands to present "both sides."

 

The annual science teacher's convention in Anaheim, Calif., during the first week of April was designed to cover similar ground, with workshops such as "Teaching Evolution in a Climate of Controversy."

 

"We're not going to roll over and take this," said Alan Leshner, the executive publisher of the journal Science. "These teachers are facing phenomenal pressure. They need help."

 

About half of all Americans dismiss as preposterous the scientific consensus that life on Earth evolved from a common ancestor over millions of years. Some hold to a literal reading of Genesis: God created the universe about 6,000 years ago. Others accept an ancient cosmos, but take the variety, complexity and beauty of earth's creatures as proof that life was crafted by an intelligent designer.

 

Religious accounts of life's origins have generally been kept out of the science classroom, sometimes by court order. But polls show a majority of Americans are unhappy with the evolution-only approach.

 

Daniel Read, for instance, considers it his Christian duty to expose his classmates to the truths he finds in the Bible, starting with the six days of creation. It's his way, he said, of counter-balancing the textbook, which devotes three chapters to evolution but just one paragraph to creationism. A soft-spoken teen with shaggy hair and baggy pants, Daniel prepares carefully for his mission in this well-educated, affluent and conservative suburb of 28,000, just outside Kansas City. He studies DVDs distributed by Answers in Genesis, a "creation evangelism" ministry devoted to training children as young as 5 to question evolution.

 

Other students gather ammunition from sermons at church or from the dozens of websites that criticize evolution as a God-denying sham. They interrupt lectures to expound on the inaccuracies of carbon dating; to disparage transitional fossils as frauds; to show photos of ancient footprints that they think prove humans and dinosaurs walked side by side.

 

If hushed, they walk out of class or put their heads down on their desks to make it plain they have stopped listening.

 

Liberty senior Sarah Hopkins was proud of her response when a botany teacher brought up evolution last year: "I asked, 'Have you ever read the Bible? Have you ever gone to church?'"

 

Such personal questions can make teachers uncomfortable, but they're fairly easy to deflect. Far tougher are the detailed, science-based queries that force teachers to defend a theory they may not ever have studied in depth.

 

"If a teacher is making a claim that land animals evolved into whales, students should ask: 'What precisely is involved? How does the fur turn into blubber, how do the nostrils move, how does the tiny tail turn into a great big fluke?'" said John Morris, president of the Institute for Creation Research near San Diego, Calif.

 

"Evolution is so unsupportable, if you insist on more information, the teacher will quickly run out of credibility," he said.

 

Anxious to forestall such challenges, nearly one in five teachers makes a point of avoiding the word "evolution" in class - even when they're presenting the topic, according to a survey by the National Science Teachers Association.

 

"They're saying they don't know how to respond . . . They haven't done the research the kids have done on this," said Linda Froschauer, the group's president-elect.

 

In a classroom cluttered with paper models of DNA, newspaper clippings about global warming and oddities such as a four-eared pig in formaldehyde, Frisby parries his students' questions patiently, but with a bit of disappointment.

 

For the first 27 years of his career, he taught life's origins without controversy. Then in 1999, the Kansas Board of Education deleted evolution from the mandatory science curriculum.

 

Frisby was teaching biology at the time in Shawnee Mission, Kan., and he was determined not to alter his curriculum. His students, however, seemed emboldened by the board's action.

 

One, the daughter of a local minister, took to bringing in creationist research that she thought proved Darwin wrong. Her critiques hit their mark: More than a third of the students wrote in their class evaluations that they did not accept their teacher's account of how life emerged.

 

Kansas restored evolution to the science curriculum in 2001 after conservatives lost their majority on the board. A subsequent election again shifted the balance, and last year the board issued a mandate, which still stands: Students must be taught that the theory of evolution is a "historical narrative" based on circumstantial evidence. They must also learn specific criticisms of evolution.

 

(Begin optional trim)

 

Though he retired from his Kansas teaching job in 2002 for personal reasons, Frisby remains active in efforts there to elect a more liberal state school board. His job across the state line in Missouri is less political. Missouri does not require teachers to introduce criticisms of evolution or alternative accounts of life's origins. Nonetheless, those views come up in Room 207 every year.

 

Toward the end of his second class one recent morning, Frisby held up an old issue of National Geographic magazine. The cover asked in bold type: "Was Darwin Wrong?"

 

"Yes!" one student called.

 

Another backed him up: "Yes!"

 

Six or eight other voices joined in. Frisby quieted them and opened to the article inside, which began with the one-word answer: "No."

 

"It's my job to show you the overwhelming evidence for evolution," he said.

 

"What about the other side?" Jeff Paul called. An approving murmur swept the room.

 

Frisby, 59, rarely gets angry at such interruptions; even his most skeptical students praise his willingness to listen. He has attended two creationist conferences to hear their evidence first-hand; he digs out articles that respond to their doubts; he'll even sit down with a student to talk about God - though only after class.

 

(End optional trim)

 

To engage students who might be inclined to tune out, Frisby fills his lesson plans with hands-on activities.

 

In one, he'll unspool a long roll of adding-machine tape and have the kids make a timeline of earth's history. They'll be able to see at a glance how long it took for a vast diversity of creatures to evolve, from the humble worm 430 million years ago to the first fish 345 million years ago and on through dinosaurs and mammals. On his timeline, early man won't appear until the very end of the paper, right up against the edge.

 

Frisby hopes the exercise will make an impression on students like Chris Willett, who offered this rebuttal to evolution: "I think it's kind of strange that they can find all these dinosaur fossils from what you say is millions of years ago, but they can't find any transitional human fossils."

 

Frisby promised to show the class several fossils that document the halting and gradual evolution from apes to humans. Then he reminded them not to expect equal numbers of human and dinosaur remains, because hominids emerged only recently, while dinosaurs ruled the planet for nearly 200 million years.

 

At that, sophomore Derik Montgomery snapped to attention.

 

"I heard that dinosaurs are only thousands of years old, like 6,000. Not millions," he said.

 

"That's wrong," Frisby responded briskly. "What can I tell you? You can't believe everything you read."

 

Sprawled out across his chair, Derik muttered: "You can't believe everything you hear in here, either."

[LosingMyReligion]

I weep for the future, particularly in the South. You can't drag a decent conversation out of anyone who has been "Borned Again."

[Reverend AtheiStar]

You know, the problem I see here is not that there are opposing views. That's fine. The problem here is that these kids are rude. If someone is giving a speech and there's a heckler, that person is removed. Would the clergy of a church allow this kind of disruption? Why is this kid allowed to be such a jackass? Why is his disrespect and interruption tolerated? I'd kick the little asshole out of my class.

[greasemonkey]

You know, the problem I see here is not that there are opposing views. That's fine. The problem here is that these kids are rude. If someone is giving a speech and there's a heckler, that person is removed. Would the clergy of a church allow this kind of disruption? Why is this kid allowed to be such a jackass? Why is his disrespect and interruption tolerated? I'd kick the little asshole out of my class.

 

Yeah, but the second they kick the kid out of class or whatever; then the nutjobs wil start screaming persecution...

 

kind of a no-win situation for now.

[Caretaker]

Stories like this that make me wish all the scientists, intellectuals, and rationals to leave Amerika and let the rest rot in their own ignorance.

 

Seriously, if I were not bounded by such a law, I'd tell those students to get the hell out of my classroom not to return until they are willing to take my lesson seriously.

[Reverend AtheiStar]

I weep for the future, particularly in the South. You can't drag a decent conversation out of anyone who has been "Borned Again."

 

If they were "born again," it was a still birth! They might as well be rotting with all the medieval nonsense they espouse. Sad, truly sad. I weep, too. But that makes me think of the chorus of a really good, motivational song from Hatebreed, I Will Be Heard:

 

Now is the time for me to rise to my feet

Wipe your spit from my face

Wipe these tears from my eyes

 

Now is the time for me to rise to my feet

Wipe your spit from my face

Wipe these tears from my eyes

 

I've got to take my life back

one chance to make it right

I've got to have my voice be heard

and bring meaning to this life

 

Cause I trusted for nothing

I've been led astray

I've been tried and tested

but I won't accept defeat

Now I've done things i regret

and it's time to reverse the roles

Now I just wanna make good on all the promises I have made

 

I will be!

I-

WILL-

BE-

I WILL BE HEARD

 

I-

WILL-

BE-

I WILL BE HEARD

 

Now is the time for me to rise to my feet

Wipe your spit from my face

Wipe these tears from my eyes

 

(Through the worst we prevail)

(So our voices will be heard)

(Through the worst we prevail)

(So are voices will be heard)

 

Through the worst we prevail

So our voices will be heard

Through the worst we prevail

So are voices will be heard

 

Now is the time for me to rise to my feet

Wipe your spit from my face

Wipe these tears from my eyes

 

Now is the time for me to rise to my feet

Wipe your spit from my face

Wipe these tears from my eyes

 

I've got to take my life back

one chance to make it right

I've got to have my voice be heard

and bring meaning to this life

 

Cause I've trusted for nothing

I've been led astray

I've been tried and tested

but I won't accept defeat

Now I've done things I regret

and its time to reverse the roles

Now I just wanna make good on all the promises I have made

 

I will be!

I-

WILL-

BE-

I WILL BE HEARD

 

I-

WILL-

BE-

I WILL BE HEARD

 

Now is the time for me to rise to my feet

Wipe your spit from my face

Wipe these tears from my eyes

 

I Will Be!

 

Emotions like these are just fuel for the activist fire! Weeping in a corner does nothing. We must rise and fight!

[Reverend AtheiStar]

Yeah, but the second they kick the kid out of class or whatever; then the nutjobs wil start screaming persecution...

 

kind of a no-win situation for now.

 

I say let them. That's what they do no matter what. Only a theocracy (complete with stonings, burnings at the stake and drownings) is good enough for them. And even if they had that? Well, then there'd be fighting between the sects just like in jolly, old England. And, of course, they want to spread the zombie infection and bite the rest of the world.

 

Point is, they will bitch and whine whether we fight them or not. I say fight and accept the consequences. I already have, in advance. We can't tip-toe around them. Walk tall and stomp hard!

 

Stories like this that make me wish all the scientists, intellectuals, and rationals to leave Amerika and let the rest rot in their own ignorance.

 

I love America. To leave her to the dogs is unacceptable. We don't need to leave. We need to change minds. "There's a better prize" as Bad Religion says in "God's Love."

 

Striking at mental apparitions

Like a drunk on a vacant street

Silently beset by the hands of time

Indelicate in its fury

An aberrant crack as skeletons yield

To unrelenting gravity

While viruses prowl for helpless victims

Who succumb rapidly

 

(Tell me!) Tell me; where is the love?

In a careless creation

When there’s no “above”

There’s no justice

Just a cause and a cure

And a bounty of suffering

It seems we all endure

And what I’m frightened of

Is that they call it “God’s love”

 

Twisted torment, make-believe

There’s a truth and we all submit

“Believe my eyes,” my brain complies

To all that they interpret

 

[Chorus]

 

I know there’s no reason for alarm

But who needs perspective when it comes to pain and harm

We can change our minds; there’s a better prize

 

But first you’ve got to…

[Chorus]

 

They call it God’s love

My pain is God’s love

 

Seriously, if I were not bounded by such a law, I'd tell those students to get the hell out of my classroom not to return until they are willing to take my lesson seriously.

 

Disobediance is disobediance regardless of it's location. Rudeness is rudeness. These kids are disrespectful brats. They need a good spanking.

[Brother Jeff]

Creationists are one reason that I am no longer a Christian. Their dishonesty disgusts me, and their ignorance appalls me. They appeal to uneducated, uncritical people who will believe them because they want to. After all, what the creationists say supports their faith! Glory! What really bothers me is the fact that they target children with their ignorant pseudoscience. That, in my opinion, makes them evil.

[Manta]

In in-fighting between the sects is wh at keeps religion out of accepted society and confined to divided powerless groups. Ever heard of "divide and conquer"? It's worked here, no-one questioned evolution in the classroom when I was taught it, the teacher even brought up the idea that it was still a theroy and that there were other ideas, but he glazed over that like he didn.t care, which was fair enough, because none of us in the class did either.

 

As for all of the scientists and rational thinkers in America, come over here, like Khan Noonien Singh says let them rot in their ignorance, or better yet, cause bickering in the sects.

[Antlerman]

I think they ought to teach creationism along side evolution for the point of contrasting approaches to knowledge. At the beginning of the first class, set aside 10 minutes to teach it with prepared materials:

1. Start with a small pile of dirt
   
2. Take some water into your mouth, then spit it into the dirt pile
   
3. Push around the wet dirt to make a mud ball
   
4. Pull out a Ken doll and call it Adam
   
5. Pull out a leftover rib bone from Famous Dave's
   
6. Pull out a Barbie doll and call it Eve
   
7. Take a lizard toy, have it hiss at the Eve doll
   
8. Have Eve doll take a pretend bite out of an apple, have Adam bite from the apple also
   
9. Chop off the legs of the lizard toy and have it slither away
   
10. Pour the remaining water over Barbie (Eve) and Ken (Adam) and call it God's punishment for having trusted the now amputeed lizard
    
11. Then End.
    

Finally, open a text book and spend the next 4 weeks teaching the alternative: science

[Reverend AtheiStar]

Creationists are one reason that I am no longer a Christian. Their dishonesty disgusts me, and their ignorance appalls me. They appeal to uneducated, uncritical people who will believe them because they want to. After all, what the creationists say supports their faith! Glory! What really bothers me is the fact that they target children with their ignorant pseudoscience. That, in my opinion, makes them evil.

 

Hey Jeff! It's nice to see you in here. Yeah, creationists are usually charlatans who just want to sell themselves and/or their new book/mercahandise. There's quite the motherload of cash to be had! As Eric Cartman from South Park has wisely pointed out "Every Christian is a walking, talking wallet full of cash!" Amen! lol...

 

Evil? I would say some are. But many, as my parents did, just believe it's the truth and hence teach their children what they know just as they were taught. There are definitely some bad apples amongst them, but those, I believe, are mostly the upper management of the whole operation. The big and small bosses are the ones with the most to gain. Lower level henchmen are just following in line like good little sheep!

[lothartx]

http://www.concordmonitor.com/apps/pbcs.dl...42/1013/48HOURS

 

When students resist evolution lessons

Skeptical teens make teachers do homework

 

Snip

 

 

While I agree that no one should blindly believe what the hear, these students are not benefitting themselves or their class. Disrespect and heckling don't do anyone any good. All it shows is the stupidity of the heckler. What are they (the students) so afraid of anyway? Afraid they'll be shown how illogical and ridiculous creationism has become?

 

Fools!

[Reverend AtheiStar]

Liberty senior Sarah Hopkins was proud of her response when a botany teacher brought up evolution last year: "I asked, 'Have you ever read the Bible? Have you ever gone to church?'"

 

It's the old false dichotomy yet again. We have the righteous religious creationists on one side and the evil Atheist evolutionists on the other. It's this primitive, ignorant thinking that makes it so hard to explain anything to these people. They see only black and white when there are many, many shades of gray in between. The best explanation of these grades can be found here.

[Reverend AtheiStar]

In in-fighting between the sects is wh at keeps religion out of accepted society and confined to divided powerless groups. Ever heard of "divide and conquer"? It's worked here, no-one questioned evolution in the classroom when I was taught it, the teacher even brought up the idea that it was still a theroy and that there were other ideas, but he glazed over that like he didn.t care, which was fair enough, because none of us in the class did either.

 

As for all of the scientists and rational thinkers in America, come over here, like Khan Noonien Singh says let them rot in their ignorance, or better yet, cause bickering in the sects.

 

ID was created with this in mind. It simplifies the creationist position down to it's most basic part, the argument from design. It separates the arguments about the age of the Earth, dinosaurs, and literalist vs. metaphorical. In this way all camps are united. Or at least that was the plan. To a large extent it has worked but the Young Earth Creationists really don't like how much credence Id lends to evolution. They don't like the way it embraces science. You can see this happening here at a conference which, unfortunately, was held in my home state.

[Brother Jeff]

Creationists are one reason that I am no longer a Christian. Their dishonesty disgusts me, and their ignorance appalls me. They appeal to uneducated, uncritical people who will believe them because they want to. After all, what the creationists say supports their faith! Glory! What really bothers me is the fact that they target children with their ignorant pseudoscience. That, in my opinion, makes them evil.

 

Hey Jeff! It's nice to see you in here. Yeah, creationists are usually charlatans who just want to sell themselves and/or their new book/mercahandise. There's quite the motherload of cash to be had! As Eric Cartman from South Park has wisely pointed out "Every Christian is a walking, talking wallet full of cash!" Amen! lol...

 

Evil? I would say some are. But many, as my parents did, just believe it's the truth and hence teach their children what they know just as they were taught. There are definitely some bad apples amongst them, but those, I believe, are mostly the upper management of the whole operation. The big and small bosses are the ones with the most to gain. Lower level henchmen are just following in line like good little sheep!

Hey Reverend AtheiStar! It's nice to be in here! Glory!

 

There's quite the motherload of cash to be had!

Amen, Brother!

 

When I think of evil creationists, I think about folks like AiG, trueorigins.org, ICR, etc.

 

If churches were really interested in representing Truth, they would reject creationism outright for the lie that it is. They would, of course, also expose creationists for the liars that they are. I still feel anger that the institution that I believed represented The Truth for so long (15 years) - the Church - is in reality so corrupt.

[Reverend AtheiStar]

I think they ought to teach creationism along side evolution for the point of contrasting approaches to knowledge. At the beginning of the first class, set aside 10 minutes to teach it with prepared materials:

1. Start with a small pile of dirt
   
2. Take some water into your mouth, then spit it into the dirt pile
   
3. Push around the wet dirt to make a mud ball
   
4. Pull out a Ken doll and call it Adam
   
5. Pull out a leftover rib bone from Famous Dave's
   
6. Pull out a Barbie doll and call it Eve
   
7. Take a lizard toy, have it hiss at the Eve doll
   
8. Have Eve doll take a pretend bite out of an apple, have Adam bite from the apple also
   
9. Chop off the legs of the lizard toy and have it slither away
   
10. Pour the remaining water over Barbie (Eve) and Ken (Adam) and call it God's punishment for having trusted the now amputeed lizard
    
11. Then End.
    

Finally, open a text book and spend the next 4 weeks teaching the alternative: science

 

lol... Yup, that about sums up the Biblical account of human origins. Not that much to teach, really. Add the rest of the life of the world and it's still not much.

[Saviourmachine]

Are they really that rude? How old are you guys? I don't think it's their intention to be rude. And I appreciate the boys that investigate what they learn. A competent teacher should be able to outperform their knowledge. I had a teacher that did not believe in evolution theory, although academical educated. He did know the answers to my questions, although he actually had the most difficult position to defend. Discussions like this can be real fun.

[Brother Jeff]

Not to derail your thread, Reverend AtheiStar, but I had to comment on this:

 

From the front page of http://www.trueorigins.org

The TrueOrigin Archive offers intellectually honest responses to the claims of evolutionism’s proponents, including—but not limited to—the “Talk.Origins” newsgroup and the “Talk.Origins Archive” website. Advocates of evolutionism largely subscribe to certain philosophical presuppositions such as naturalism and humanism. Consequently, they tend to arbitrarily apply certain predispositions to their perspective and (therefore) their interpretation of the available empirical data. This fact (which they zealously deny) severely erodes evolutionists’ credibility, effectively disqualifying them from any claim to objectivity in matters concerning origins and science. Much of the material published by evolutionists embodies precisely such a pseudo-scientific bias, often articulated under the pretense that it is the product only of purely objective and unprejudiced study.

 

The TrueOrigin Archive offers intellectually honest responses to the claims of evolutionism’s proponents...

Bullshit. There is nothing intellectually honest about creationism or your responses to scientists.

 

Advocates of evolutionism largely subscribe to certain philosophical presuppositions such as naturalism and humanism.

Advocates of creationism largely subscribe to certain religious presuppositions such as theism and Christian fundamentalism.

 

Consequently, they tend to arbitrarily apply certain predispositions to their perspective and (therefore) their interpretation of the available empirical data.

As if creationists don't do the same, except that they tend to ignore or deny the empirical data when it doesn't fit their myths/beliefs.

 

This fact (which they zealously deny)

It isn't a fact, and of course they zealously deny it because it isn't a fact!

 

severely erodes evolutionists’ credibility

Please. It's creationists who have no credibility.

 

effectively disqualifying them from any claim to objectivity in matters concerning origins and science

Again, PLEASE. Scientists are largely quite objective in matters conerning origins and science, where as creationists are not. Have you ever heard of the psychological phenomenon known as PROJECTION? You are engaging in it quite readily...

 

Much of the material published by evolutionists embodies precisely such a pseudo-scientific bias

Please. Scientists have no interest in pseudoscience or in promoting it. Everything published by scientists embodies the scientific method and scientific evidence and rigor. All of the material published by creationists reflects their religious bias.

 

often articulated under the pretense that it is the product only of purely objective and unprejudiced study

That's because it is the product only of purely objective and unprejudiced study.

 

With dishonest people like this representing Christianity, why in the world should I wish to be a Christian?

[Reverend AtheiStar]

 

Are they really that rude?

 

Yes, they are. Want me to go through each response and tell you what I think is wrong with it?

 

How old are you guys?

 

I'm 29, married almost four years and have two children ages 4, and 2. If my kids were acting like that, in open defiance and disrespect, I'd have to put them in a time out or give them a spank on the butt. From a parent's perspective those creationist kids are rude and they are certainly doing on purpose. Making fun of the lesson plan isn't rude? Mumbling a snide comment isn't rude? Maybe not in your house.

 

A competent teacher should be able to outperform their knowledge.

 

Irrelevent. Whether or not he can outperform them has no bearing on their rude interuptions while he's trying to give a presentation. After the presentation is over they should ask him questions politely and in turn. These kids are snot-nosed brats, plain and simple.

 

Discussions like this can be real fun.

 

I agree. If carried out correctly. The way they were doing it wasn't fun for anyone but the kids. The teacher was being tormented. I say detentions for the lot of them! I'm sure if you looked at school policy they broke a few rules with their misbehavior.

[jjacksonRIAB]

I'd gladly give up all of my education for a Yoda session with Bacon or the like, even if it was an apprenticeship.

 

Science is withering on the vine because fewer and fewer people have any interest in it. There were times in class where I had to tell the little shitheads like the ones described in no uncertain terms to shut the fuck up, simply because the teacher wanted to but couldn't and I could.

 

If we weren't forced to educate everyone, I don't think this would be an issue.

[Reverend AtheiStar]

I'd gladly give up all of my education for a Yoda session with Bacon or the like, even if it was an apprenticeship.

 

Science is withering on the vine because fewer and fewer people have any interest in it. There were times in class where I had to tell the little shitheads like the ones described in no uncertain terms to shut the fuck up, simply because the teacher wanted to but couldn't and I could.

 

If we weren't forced to educate everyone, I don't think this would be an issue.

 

Oh, there are many in history I'd like to be schooled by. Voltaire looks like he was quite the character. Thomas Paine and his revolutionary works would have been an awesome teacher, too. Eeven futher back, Lucretius and Epicurus would have been very interesting to listen talk about their philosophical ideals.

 

In modern times I would love to have Richard Dawkins or Jerry Coyne or Dan Barker. I often imagine having an Atheist school with the best teachers that Freethought has to offer. It'd be private and so only those interested in science, philosophy and Atheism would apply. It'd be free of rude theistic children. They'd be replaced by young, eager minds who loved learning! <sigh> It may happen one day but for now it's a dream I'll just have to hold on to. I reflect on this when I have to pass the big, fancy Christian school with it's giant stone torture symbol on top-- which pumps out fundies by the busload.

[Reverend AtheiStar]

There have been, is and always will be rude children in school and it's not just the religious right. Not being able to question science and especially evolution is just as wrong as people in theocracies, not being able to question. Perhaps schools should teach both side by side, the funny thing is is that it teaching 'creation' accounts should mean teaching a little about several creation accounts. ;-)

 

There is a proper way to question. Interruption is not that way.

 

You want "both" sides? There are tens of thousands of creation stories. Do tell me, when would actual science be presented? At the end of the year when the science teacher was done teaching mythology?

 

How about all the sides of geology, too? How about we spend precious school time on nutjob theories like "Hollow Earth?" Why not teach about magic spells and incantations? Why not tell the kids that leprechauns, fairies, werewolves, vampires, ogres and zombies, yes, zombies are real? If it was written at any time during history and believed by at least one person, let's teach it! Hell, let's forget about science all together. It'll be science in name only. We can teach everything else instead!

 

I'd gladly give up all of my education for a Yoda session with Bacon or the like, even if it was an apprenticeship.

 

Science is withering on the vine because fewer and fewer people have any interest in it. There were times in class where I had to tell the little shitheads like the ones described in no uncertain terms to shut the fuck up, simply because the teacher wanted to but couldn't and I could.

 

If we weren't forced to educate everyone, I don't think this would be an issue.

 

Yeah, I would love to have told this kid to shut the fuck up! If you have a real question, save it for the end of the presentation! Stop butting in, asswipe, and let the teacher teach! What ever happened to a child having to respect his elders? Isn't that biblical? Shouldn't these kids be up for stonings by now?

 

Not to derail your thread, Reverend AtheiStar, but I had to comment on this:

 

From the front page of http://www.trueorigins.org

 

Get 'em Jeff!

[AtheistMommy]

You know, the problem I see here is not that there are opposing views. That's fine. The problem here is that these kids are rude. If someone is giving a speech and there's a heckler, that person is removed. Would the clergy of a church allow this kind of disruption? Why is this kid allowed to be such a jackass? Why is his disrespect and interruption tolerated? I'd kick the little asshole out of my class.

 

It is because of the parents that these children act in such ways. These children may be doing research but it's not complete. They haven't taken all the facts into consideration. What they have been doing is collecting the arguments and repeating the answers they have either heard or read somwhere. In college they won't get very far with that kind of behavior. They won't get very far with those questions.

 

These teachers should not have to put up with such behavior. What is going on in their classroom sounds a lot like a "hate crime." And I'm sure what we are going to see next is some angry fundy christian students shooting up a science teacher for saying "Evolution."

 

Besides this, I see their behavior in favor of our lifestyle. The crazyer and anti-loving they act, the more Atheists are born.

[AtheistMommy]

There have been, is and always will be rude children in school and it's not just the religious right. Not being able to question science and especially evolution is just as wrong as people in theocracies, not being able to question. Perhaps schools should teach both side by side, the funny thing is is that it teaching 'creation' accounts should mean teaching a little about several creation accounts. ;-)

 

 

Although, it's true that there is a "bad apple" or "seed" in just about every classroom, these type of teenagers are becoming more abundant. I've run into quite a few myself. If there is anything I've noticed it's been this, Atheists are usually older, from late twenties (not very many, I've looked) to late 60's. Christians start out very young. They seem to aim their giant brain fart at children as soon as they are born. And so this clash between Evolution and the "god did it" wanna be science has created a new breed of Christian: the teen fundy can't think for himself, christian.

 

I don't think we should entertain them by giving in to their theory. Instead we should show them the error of that way of thinking, like we've been doing since religion was kicked formally out of public schools. If we were to include the "god did it" theory wouldn't it still be unfair? Wouldn't we have to include all theories?

 

I think we just all need to find a fellow Atheist and have lots of little Atheists, LOL...

[Fweethawt]

I think we just all need to find a fellow Atheist and have lots of little Atheists, LOL...

And that's always a great idea!

 

So far, I've helped make two smart, good lookin' boys.

 

I'm up to being refered to as The Breeder™ if anyone is interested.