Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted February 3, 2021 Super Moderator Share Posted February 3, 2021 This thread is created specifically for @WalterP and @pittsburghjoe. All other participants are asked to confine their remarks to the peanut gallery thread adjacent to this one. Any post not made by either WalterP or pittsburghjoe will be either moved to the peanut gallery or deleteddeleted.s for your cooperation and a special thanks to our two participants. Enjoy, John 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pittsburghjoe Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 WalterP doesn't get to ask trick questions that require a yes or no. He is playing a game when he does this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pittsburghjoe Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 If you want out of this hellhole, you have to be willing to give it all up. This place is made of and for sin. We are in Satan's perception of Death and Decay. This place is a test, you're not supposed to enjoy it. You have to give up everything that makes you physically unique. You will have an ID in Heaven, but the one you have right now is used for sin. That's what sin is, Greed, Lust, Ego, Pride, Vanity. IT IS ALL ABOUT YOU. God wants us to become one with Him. That means becoming connected to a whole. Sin will not be possible. The alternative is for you to stick around here with a ruler that hates humans more than anything. We are born into this fallen reality because our representation for humans picked to believe Satan over God. To disobey God's order. God didn't want us here, it ends in death. God didn't want robots so he had to allow the choice to go dark. God doesn't create evil so the fallen mess Satan started was the only thing God could use as the choice. It doesn't do any good to complain about the situation we are in. Face it head on and realize there is a way out of it. The double slit experiment screams that something isn't right. What more do you need as a sign? Wave-Particle Duality is pointing out that sin needs decoherence to happen. We are made in God's image, we are not dumb. The tree is about knowing the difference between good and evil. It is allowing us to know when something is physical. We can't know that difference at creation because then we would be physical from the start. We would be able to sin. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalterP Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 Ok, where were we? Oh yes! Joe has already agreed that god did not create Adam and Eve with the knowledge of either good or evil. Good and evil are moral conditions. Then, in response to my question, 'Do you agree that Adam and Eve couldn't make moral choices of their own free will?' Joe replied, 'No.' I then asked him, 'So how could they make a moral choice to disobey god?' He replied, 'The moral choice was to obey god or not.' Therefore Joe is saying that Adam and Eve were required to make a moral choice. To this I will now ask him this question. If Adam and Eve had no moral knowledge of good and evil, how could they make a moral choice between obeying or disobeying god? Please answer, Joe. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pittsburghjoe Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 You are saying we were idiots without the tree ..that's not the case. You know Good when you live in it. You know when a Good God tells you not to do something you shouldn't do it. Obedience is the only avenue God had to allow Free Will without causing us to know what sin is beforehand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalterP Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 1 minute ago, pittsburghjoe said: You are saying we were idiots without the tree ..that's not the case. You know Good when you live in it. You know when a Good God tells you not to do something you shouldn't do it. Obedience is the only avenue God had to allow Free Will without causing us to know what sin is beforehand. Please answer the question I just put to you, Joe. You'll note that in deference to your wishes it's not a Yes/No question. It's a 'How?' question. Here it is again. If Adam and Eve had no moral knowledge of good and evil, how could they make a moral choice between obeying or disobeying god? Please answer this question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pittsburghjoe Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 What says they didn't have moral knowledge of good and bad? I told you what the tree was actually about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalterP Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 33 minutes ago, pittsburghjoe said: What says they didn't have moral knowledge of good and bad? I told you what the tree was actually about. YOU said they didn't have any moral knowledge, Joe. In the 'Please join me here, PittsburghJoe' thread. Here's a link to the page in question. https://www.ex-christian.net/topic/84991-please-join-me-here-pittsburghjoe/page/9/ Yesterday, in response to JoshPantera you answered 'No' to my question, 'Did god make Adam with any knowledge of both good or evil?' Here is your message, saying no. Posted yesterday at 01:44 PM I already said no. After that, I replied... Posted yesterday at 03:02 PM Ok, so with Joe's input we have now agreed that when god made him, god did not give Adam the knowledge of both good and evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalterP Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 Sorry Joe, but you've agreed that Adam was not made with any (moral) knowledge of good and evil. Do you stand by that or are you going to change your mind? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pittsburghjoe Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 I think you can know what bad is ..instead of evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalterP Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 1 minute ago, pittsburghjoe said: I think you can know what bad is ..instead of evil. Not a problem, Joe. I'll just change the wording of my question and we can start over. Did god make Adam with any knowledge of both good and bad? Please answer. Thank you. Walter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pittsburghjoe Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 Yes It is a problem for you because people that can distinguish between good and bad can make informed decisions. Bad is doing what God said not to do. The concept of bad doesn't cause sin ...evil does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalterP Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 3 minutes ago, pittsburghjoe said: Yes It is a problem for you because people that can distinguish between good and bad can make informed decisions. Bad is doing what God said not to do. The concept of bad doesn't cause sin ...evil does. Joe, you agreed that god made Adam without knowledge of both good and evil. Now you say that evil causes sin. But if Adam had no knowledge of evil how could he sin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pittsburghjoe Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 Eating the physical apple made them physical themselves. The tree was fallen. ..welcome to this fallen reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalterP Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 10 minutes ago, pittsburghjoe said: Eating the physical apple made them physical themselves. The tree was fallen. ..welcome to this fallen reality. I'm asking about Adam and Eve, not the tree. The context of my question was set down in my first post in this thread. 'If Adam and Eve had no moral knowledge of good and evil, how could they make a moral choice between obeying or disobeying god?' I'm still asking about Adam and Eve and you haven't yet said HOW they could sin. Sin comes from evil and they had no moral knowledge of evil. So, how could they choose evil when there's no moral knowledge of evil in them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pittsburghjoe Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 Eating the apple made them to be sin ..decoherence. Decoherence causes waves to become particles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalterP Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 2 minutes ago, pittsburghjoe said: Eating the apple made them to be sin ..decoherence. Decoherence causes waves to become particles. Once again Joe, you have failed to properly address my question. I was not asking about the tree, nor the fruit of the tree. I was asking only about Adam and Eve. Here's the question again. How could they choose evil when there was no moral knowledge of evil in them? Please answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pittsburghjoe Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 You don't need to choose it after you become it. They did the thing God said not to do ..and now look what happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalterP Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 1 minute ago, pittsburghjoe said: You don't need to choose it after you become it. They did the thing God said not to do ..and now look what happened. Joe, I didn't ask you about what happened AFTER their choice. I asked you HOW they could make the choice. This was my question. How could they choose evil when there was no moral knowledge of evil in them? Please answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pittsburghjoe Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 They chose to believe Satan over God. The chose to disobey God. That is all it took. They didn't need to know what evil was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalterP Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 2 minutes ago, pittsburghjoe said: They chose to believe Satan over God. The chose to disobey God. That is all it took. They didn't need to know what evil was. But did they need to know what good was? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalterP Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 Can you lock this up till tomorrow please. Off to bed. Bye! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pittsburghjoe Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 11 minutes ago, WalterP said: But did they need to know what good was? You don't need to know what good is when you are made of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalterP Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 7 hours ago, pittsburghjoe said: You don't need to know what good is when you are made of it. Are you saying that Adam and Eve were made of good because they were made in god's image? Well, if you are that's wrong. God DOES know good from evil, so if they were made EXACTLY in his image, then he would have made them knowing good and evil, just like himself. But they were made WITHOUT the knowledge of good or evil, so there were NOT made in the exact image of god. Goodness is the moral ability to choose good over evil. Adam and Eve were made without this ability. Therefore they could not have been made good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pittsburghjoe Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 We don't have knowledge of everything like God does. In His image means we have an imagination with an extended memory. Also, love, wisdom and justice. We can connect with God being in His image. We chose to separate from God and be our own unique selves to allow sin. Now we live with the consequences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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