Peanut Gallery for JoshPantera vs. Endgarcito3

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Y'all know how this works: let the boyos duke it out in their thread; the rest of us can have our fun here in the bawdry-house.

[WalterP]

Hmmm...

 

So, Josh and Ed are both claiming to be the other's spiritual superior.

 

But things are going to get messy if they have different understandings of what 'spirituality' is.

 

There can be no winner and no loser in this fight unless they are both using the same spiritual standard.

 

All that'll happen is that each will hold to their own standard and claim that it they are the winner.

 

If the Mods try to impose a common standard on them then, most likely, they won't agree to it.

 

So I can't see this thread going anywhere until both parties agree to a common 'spiritual' standard.

 

For what it's worth, I can suggest one and I also have an idea as to how it might be applied.

 

But unless I'm consulted I'll keep quiet about it.

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

[TABA]

“Agnostic suggests Josh has no Standard and might make shit up as he goes.”

 

This is a disappointing start from E: portraying a lack of certainty as dishonesty.  

[v__a__s__t]

54 minutes ago, WalterP said:

Hmmm...

 

So, Josh and Ed are both claiming to be the other's spiritual superior.

 

But things are going to get messy if they have different understandings of what 'spirituality' is.

 

There can be no winner and no loser in this fight unless they are both using the same spiritual standard.

 

All that'll happen is that each will hold to their own standard and claim that it they are the winner.

 

If the Mods try to impose a common standard on them then, most likely, they won't agree to it.

 

So I can't see this thread going anywhere until both parties agree to a common 'spiritual' standard.

 

For what it's worth, I can suggest one and I also have an idea as to how it might be applied.

 

But unless I'm consulted I'll keep quiet about it.

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

 

i agree.  this could be quite confusing, and already is i think.  though i think i understand them and it, also.... in ways...

 

in Christianity at least, spirituality is about becoming more and more like Christ (i would say) --a disciple of spirit/Christ.  Christ and God are 1 or at-one, whichever. sooooo.. who will seem/sound more like Christ?  and/or who will lead us to Christ (spirit/God//perfection/all-knowledge)? 

 

and since i doubt any of us are perfect or all-knowing like God might be (if there is a God or higher Power) and each of us are also struggling with different things in life, and/or spiritually also, imperfect and each very different from each other..... how will we be able to know?

[TheRedneckProfessor]

I agree, @WalterP, which is one of the reasons I initiated the thread for Josh and Ed.  I can certainly claim that I am on a higher spiritual plane than I ever was as a christian; but to claim I am on a higher spiritual plane than anyone else is a claim I could never make. 

 

Firstly, humility is now a large part of my path; and that in and of itself should preclude me from self-comparison to others.  Secondly, unless I can truly understand another's path as they understand it, and as I understand my own, I could not, with any genuine qualification, determine how far along on their path they might be, as compared to how much further along mine I have to go.  Lastly, to speak to your point, a mutually agreed understanding of spirituality would be necessary for all parties involved to even begin determining who is on a higher plane.  

 

One of the bodhisattvas once said that those who are enlightened never speak of enlightenment, and often seem only vaguely aware of it (my paraphrase).

 

Nevertheless, Josh and Ed have both put forth the claim that they have a superior spirituality than the other.  It is up to them both now to prove it.

[Joshpantera]

1 hour ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Lastly, to speak to your point, a mutually agreed understanding of spirituality would be necessary for all parties involved to even begin determining who is on a higher plane. 

 

I do intend to set a standard. Human spirituality is that standard. Meaning the collective whole of human spiritual thinking and various levels of enlightenment have to all be factored in. How christianity fares against a comparative religious outlook. Because the point here is that christianity can be demonstrably inferior from a human spiritual perspective. This has to be a comparative world mythology and religion debate to make any sense. 

 

And also, End is subject to an evaluation of spiritual standard OF christianity. 

 

He is substandard in demonstrable ways as a christian, and further christianity is sub standard against other avenues of human spiritual thinking in the world. All demonstrable. In objective, check list type of analysis. This shouldn't be as complicated or impossible as some may think going into the debate. 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

2 minutes ago, Joshpantera said:

 

I do intend to set a standard. Human spirituality is that standard. Meaning the collective whole of human spiritual thinking and various levels of enlightenment have to all be factored in. How christianity fares against a comparative religious outlook. Because the point here is that christianity can be demonstrably inferior from a human spiritual perspective. This has to be a comparative world mythology and religion debate to make any sense. 

I's hoping you'd head in that direction. 

[Joshpantera]

Thou Art That: transforming religious metaphor

 

Editors forward XV

 

"Many elements of the bible seem lifeless and unbelievable because they have been regarded as historical facts instead of metaphorical representations of spiritual realities. They have been applied in a concrete way to great figures, such as Moses and John the Baptist, as if they are real time accounts of their actions. That this heavy emphasis on the historical rather than spiritual should have continued into the 21st century illustrates the lag-time that the leaders of institutional religions have allowed to open up between their static ideas and the rapidly developing understandings of solid new scholarship...

 

...There is little evident progress in formal religious teaching. 

...The spiritual needs of people are neglected by religious leaders who insist on the historical-factual character of religious metaphors, thereby distorting and debasing their meaning." 

[Joshpantera]

This forward sets the stage for the scholarship that is to come from Joseph Campbell. Right away, there is an evident distinction drawn between an historical-factual reading of religious literature versus what is considerably "spiritual." Or going beyond the mundane experiences of time and space. And opening up to the transcendent factor. 

 

As in, reading through religious literature and agreeing or believing that it's historical and factually true never begins to even touch on anything "spiritual." and "transcendent" as it were. There's nothing "spiritual" about reading a history book, for instance.

 

When the bible is reduced to a history book that someone believes in and presented as spiritual just for sake of believing a history book, the entire human spirituality dynamic has been, 'distorted and debased." 

 

And through the course of debate I can establish the case. Especially with End-garcito treating the bible as literal history from Genesis forward. End is necessarily taking a non-spiritual approach from the outset...

[midniterider]

Josh: there is an evident distinction drawn between an historical-factual reading of religious literature versus what is considerably "spiritual."

 

Spirituality is living, breathing, individual, creative ... not following the rules of some book and being afraid of the sky tyrant. 

 

One size of spirituality does not fit all.

[v__a__s__t]

1 hour ago, midniterider said:

Josh: there is an evident distinction drawn between an historical-factual reading of religious literature versus what is considerably "spiritual."

 

Spirituality is living, breathing, individual, creative ... not following the rules of some book and being afraid of the sky tyrant. 

 

One size of spirituality does not fit all.

 

5. “Always be yourself. Unless you can be a dragon.” Kiersten Fay

 

https://www.awakenthegreatnesswithin.com/35-dragon-quotes-on-success/   

[Joshpantera]

3 minutes ago, v__a__s__t said:

 

5. “Always be yourself. Unless you can be a dragon.” Kiersten Fay

 

https://www.awakenthegreatnesswithin.com/35-dragon-quotes-on-success/   

 

Well I am a Dragon, as it were! 

 

1976

 

 

 

 

[v__a__s__t]

20 minutes ago, Joshpantera said:

 

Well I am a Dragon, as it were! 

 

1976

 

 

 

 

 

lol  

 

two of them!  i hadn't seen yours, but now i do.

 

1976?

[v__a__s__t]

27 minutes ago, v__a__s__t said:

 

lol  

 

two of them!  i hadn't seen yours, but now i do.

 

1976?

 

even stranger, while I'm reading this, this happens to be on:

 

 

https://stargate.fandom.com/wiki/Quest_for_the_Sangraal 

 

-- which has a dragon in it.

 

 

warning: spoiler alert

[TheRedneckProfessor]

28 minutes ago, v__a__s__t said:

1976?

Per the Lunar Calendar, Mr. Pantera was born in the Year of the Dragon.  I'm an Ox; Mrs. Prof is a Chicken.

[midniterider]

Ed: All I have to my understanding is natural, sensory experience, but you nor I have any means of defining a mechanism that connects us to something greater outside of a physiological relationship.

 

-----

 

I thought Christians believed in souls.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

I'm somewhat confused as I didn't catch what has been going on in the garden thread. Which is where I assume this is coming from. Is there anyway we can post the specific threads from that thread that lead to this debate? There are 12 pages in the garden thread. I dont mind reading the thread but to catch myself up and any observers just coming in it would be nice. 

 

I'll go over to that thread and start reading. 

 

 

[◊ Krowb ◊]

@WalterP is correct. This isn't going anywhere until there's a common definition and I don't think Ed is interested in any giving ground.  As evidence for this I note he has not proffered his own definition, but merely quibbling with Josh's proposed definition.  This is not behavior of a constructive exercise, but one designed specifically to thwart it.

 

Both parties should lay out their definitions and see if any zone of agreement or compromise can exist between them.

 

Basically, @Joshpantera is boxing with a cloud.

[Joshpantera]

12 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

I'm somewhat confused as I didn't catch what has been going on in the garden thread. Which is where I assume this is coming from. Is there anyway we can post the specific threads from that thread that lead to this debate? There are 12 pages in the garden thread. I dont mind reading the thread but to catch myself up and any observers just coming in it would be nice. 

 

I'll go over to that thread and start reading. 

 

 

Just around page 10 or 11. 

 

It shot off from there. 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

Is Endgarcito going to actually make an argument for christian spirituality and how it is superior to others or not? I mean I understand what Josh is putting out there. Its time for end to actually make a comprehensive reply I think. What is his stance on his own spirituality? 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

7 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

Is Endgarcito going to actually make an argument for christian spirituality and how it is superior to others or not? I mean I understand what Josh is putting out there. Its time for end to actually make a comprehensive reply I think. What is his stance on his own spirituality? 

Endgarcito3 does not know what his own stance on spirituality is.  He will not make an argument for christian spirituality because he doesn't really subscribe to it.  He simply finds some small comfort in his own interpretation of certain christian doctrines. 

 

He will never actually take a firm stance on anything; he never has, and seemingly never will, because his own beliefs are predicated on word salads and hickledy-pickledy acceptance of selected scriptures.  In this current shadow-boxing match, he will deliberately misunderstand, obfuscate, bluster, demand Josh make, remake, and further clarify hair-splitting points which he will then deny, after which he will shut down for a prolonged sabbatical and later come back as stubborn and obstinate as ever.  The one thing he will not do, is take a solid position and stand firm in defense of it.

 

Sometimes I wish a muthafucka would.

[v__a__s__t]

4 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Per the Lunar Calendar, Mr. Pantera was born in the Year of the Dragon.  I'm an Ox; Mrs. Prof is a Chicken.

 

ah... i see. 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

1 hour ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Endgarcito3 does not know what his own stance on spirituality is.  He will not make an argument for christian spirituality because he doesn't really subscribe to it.  He simply finds some small comfort in his own interpretation of certain christian doctrines. 

 

He will never actually take a firm stance on anything; he never has, and seemingly never will, because his own beliefs are predicated on word salads and hickledy-pickledy acceptance of selected scriptures.  In this current shadow-boxing match, he will deliberately misunderstand, obfuscate, bluster, demand Josh make, remake, and further clarify hair-splitting points which he will then deny, after which he will shut down for a prolonged sabbatical and later come back as stubborn and obstinate as ever.  The one thing he will not do, is take a solid a solid position and stand firm in defense of it.

 

Sometimes I wish a muthafucka would.

10/4 So its gonna be a pretty shitty debate then lol. 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

"I’ll tell you what Josh, let's do this, I’d like you not to disclose all you know, but disclose what you personally have had and believe to be spiritual connections/experiences. And then I’ll reciprocate. And then I’ll explain my take on spirituality. Thx" 

 

-edgarcito

 

Josh has already tried to tell him his experiences with spirituality. And begin to delve deeper into his current stance on spirituality. I think End just likes reading Josh's posts. Maybe @Joshpantera has a secret admirer lol. I think end is falling for ya in a love hate kinda way. 

[midniterider]

Ed: Josh was going to demonstrate his spiritual superiority via a knowledge based approach.  Then when pressed for specifics all I’m getting are no specifics but more of a file cabinet, top drawer, files 1-4 outlining spiritual classification.

 

....

 

Josh basically said "We are all God." 

Meanwhile Ed is fiddling with filing cabinets.