Confirmation error and cognitive dissonance

[Aibao]

I do not have the courage to start another topic, but for some time now I have been starting to look at life and the world differently - as if everything would end in a moment (at least in my case). Therefore, it is important for me to deal with the most pressing issues. Thank you for being with me, because every answer you give me makes me think even though I don't seem to be listening because I keep asking questions. My questions have been ready for a long time and saved in my notebook. I try not to ask all the questions that I wrote down, but only those that I haven't found an answer to anywhere. I collect answers. Each answer leads me to something, e.g. today I bought a few books that I am going to read. I've already looked through them on the train. I will give up only when someone decides that I violate some rules by asking. As long as I can, I will keep asking. Thank you again for everything, you are my support. Thank you for the hints that I should go to a specialist. For now, I am working on a doctor's book on the brain and gut. Religious trauma and other things may have made me feel disturbed. Some thoughts have returned to me for some time, I have the impression that I am standing over the blood between life and death, and the feeling of loneliness and emptiness and hurt is unbearable, it's kind of killing me (but this is not the place to talk about it) - that sometimes it seems to me that I need the love that Jesus has for us and maybe I should return to Christianity, but then I collide with the concept of hell and all Christian "love" breaks away like a charm ...

My main questions: did you find greater love outside of Christianity or do you yearn for this great love of Jesus?

 

 

Here are some thoughts on the confirmation error and cognitive dissonance - as the devil's advocate, or rather the other way around, I assumed that what if Christianity turned out to be true, could some cognitive dissonance result from it, or rather such dissonance concerns only religion as false and any other conspiracy theories?

 

 

Is it not that everything depends on a preconceived worldview - that is, for example, if we are prejudiced against Christianity, we will not be convinced by any evidence or arguments for this religion. And conversely. So how do you approach it objectively and examine it all objectively?
Similarly, isn't it that emotions, not logic, influence belief? For example, it upsets us and outrages us that the God of the Old Testament is so genocidal and vindictive, so we reject Christianity without thinking. But if we remove emotions from the belief that God is vengeful in the Old Testament, we are left with a pure, unemotional argument that can be explained with apologetic answers. So if we remove emotions from each argument, is there nothing else for us to do but accept the Christian claims? For example, Paulogia, who publishes atheistic or agnostic films on YouTube, admitted in one of them that evil and suffering in the world was not the cause of his turning away from Christianity, and he even believes that if God exists, he has his moral reasons to tolerate evil, but we just can't understand it. unlike Paulogia, Bart Ehrman departed from this religion mainly because of the presence of so much evil and suffering in the world. But if, as Paulogia says, we do not understand why God allows evil, then maybe we do not understand that God exists? Even if the evolution is correct and the Christian arguments are illogical, maybe it still does not prevent God from existing?

 

Is it not that Christianity makes us feel hurt or we feel bad in this religion (as in my case), so we go out and look for something that will confirm our beliefs, evidence that this religion is wrong and false, but this may result from our confirmation error, because we no longer want to be Christian, but is it true, for example? Just as an alcoholic seeks an excuse to drink and confirms why drinking alcohol is good, we justify our atheism? Or maybe it is the Holy Spirit who sends me explanations and various thoughts to return to my Christianity? How do you see it? Is there any rational explanation for why I am having these thoughts?

After leaving the church, I thought that if God exists, let him try and look for me, I have already done what I could. After a few years, my mother began to put pressure on me to look for a god, to read about Satan, hell, etc. I'm starting to worry if that wasn't God's answer to the fact that I wanted God to look for me now? Like some clergyman or pastor prayed for a friend's conversion and he was converted but after that pastor died. But on the way, I had become so discouraged from religion that it is difficult for me to come back to it. How do I know if there is something in answer to a prayer or not? How to find out? How to explain it?

 

For example, does healthy eating not exist because there is a lot of opinions about what is healthy and what is not? Can the same be said about God or about the truthfulness of Christianity? Same as, for example, the stupid argument sounds, since you are vegan and you don't eat animals, how can you eat live plants? after all, it is also a living being and animal food, so you take their food from them (I met with such an argument from the opponent of veganism). I think this argument sounds silly to vegans. But can the atist arguments against religion be similarly addressed? For example, the universe does exist, so it had to be created, it couldn't have arisen just like that, just out of nothing?
Just as there are good arguments for and against vegetarianism, so can Christianity. So how do you know what is really right and true? Because it suits me and this - should I choose subjectively?
There are people who believe that you have to eat meat, eggs etc. and have arguments for this from evolution, and eating only fruits and vegetables leads to malnutrition, etc. There are also people who, on the contrary, healed of diseases by eating only fruit or by fasting aqueous. I personally know a person who recovered from the coronavirus in a few days and that person is vegan and leads an active lifestyle. There are people who, when they poorly carry out a fruit diet, can get sick, and there are people who eat everything and even old food and are doing well (my grandmother is now 83 years old, does not like vegetables, eats little fruit, a lot of meat) . Regarding Christianity and atheism: there are people who feel good in this religion, and there are also people who are traumatized by this religion. Based on my analogy with healthy and junk food, does this mean that the truth is unattainable? That we will never know whether, for example, veganism or fruitarianism is the best diet option or Christianity is true, but if someone lives badly as a Christian or does not understand how to live, he ends up traumatized like I do after this religion, but it does not mean that it is not true ? Maybe just like going on a fruit diet, you need to cleanse yourself in order to like fruit and for it to work, can you similarly say about Christianity that you have to want to believe and clear your mind of skepticism, for example, and then you will see or find out that God really exists?

 

Regarding the confirmation error, I'm afraid I assumed at the outset that God didn't exist. I was leaning towards atheism, so my confirmation error leads me to atheism while God can exist. As with scientific research, e.g. there is a lot of scientific research on a given topic, but the fact that there is a lot of research does not mean that it is all true. So, on the contrary, just because Christianity is considered less and less credible does not necessarily mean that it is not.
The confirmation error may also be that I identify with some atheists who have had bad experiences with the church, but just because I think the church is bad doesn't necessarily mean that everyone is bad and that the God of the Bible does not exist.

Just like some people think that women's periods are unnatural and they have scientific research for it - some people think it's natural and they have scientific research for it too. Who's right? There is only one truth, but which one? It is similar with Christianity and atheism. Both sides have good arguments for and against, but who is right? Who is wrong and who is telling the truth?

I have come across such a statement that if I constantly think of Christianity as negative and destructive, I will fall into the confusion of confirmation and get discouraged by this religion and start looking for arguments against and I will not know the truth. So it all depends on how you look at a given view. As a result, I don't know how I should research this religion to find out if it's true or not. If I have too much atheistic material, and too little Christian material, I feel guilty and think that I cannot investigate it because I am collecting materials dishonestly ..

 

Please, if anyone can, someone please point me to the errors in my "what if" argument. However stupid it is, I heard somewhere that analogies are not evidence - are what I wrote are all analogies? Sometimes it seems to me that you can build a proof from an analogy. I included too much in one text. I only wanted to ask 1 question, but then found that to cover all the confirmation error and dissonance I need to write more for clarity and different possibilities.

 

[walterpthefirst]

You will never receive an adequate answer to your "what if" argument, Aibao.

 

Your irrational fear will see to that.

 

No matter how long and detailed a message you write and no matter how many avenues of inquiry you go down and no matter where you look your fear will always cause you to be unsatisfied with any answers you get. 

 

I wouldn't be surprised if there's some kind of ratio involved.  That is, the length of time you spend writing these highly detailed pleas for help are a direct indicator of how much fear you are experiencing.  If that's so, then today you must be very frightened indeed.

 

Aibao, nothing you ask for here will give the peace of mind that you so desperately crave.  None of the answers any of us can give you will ever do that.  

 

Please seek some professional help.

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

[LogicalFallacy]

@Aibao I note you are not putting in any thought of what if arguments about whether unicorns exist or not, despite the fact that the inherent probability of unicorns existing is far greater than that of any god existing. 

 

Ok, so fair enough, you aren't afraid that a unicorn might judge you.

 

So something closer to home - how much thought, worrying, and hand wringing do you put in about whether or not Anubis, the Egyptian god of death is going to judge you favorably or not? You will be weighed against a feather and if found wanting your soul will be sent to the Underworld or Ammut will eat it. Do you worry about this?

 

Why or why not?

[Aibao]

19 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

@Aibao I note you are not putting in any thought of what if arguments about whether unicorns exist or not, despite the fact that the inherent probability of unicorns existing is far greater than that of any god existing. 

 

Ok, so fair enough, you aren't afraid that a unicorn might judge you.

 

So something closer to home - how much thought, worrying, and hand wringing do you put in about whether or not Anubis, the Egyptian god of death is going to judge you favorably or not? You will be weighed against a feather and if found wanting your soul will be sent to the Underworld or Ammut will eat it. Do you worry about this?

 

Why or why not?

Why am I not afraid of the Egyptian god and I must admit that I am not afraid of the Greek Zeus either - because I have not found a single person who would convince me of such gods. Because it was considered a mythology, I doubt that even in Greece, the Greeks pray to Zeus or to Artemis. Rather, no one has had a wonderful experience with Anubis or a unicorn, and with the Jewish Jesus it is. Why are there so many miraculous conversions to Christianity and not to Hinduism, not to Buddhism, not to Anubis, not to the unicorn. I only met a man once who was probably from the Hare Krishna sect. We talked about yoga. He handed me a book on the teachings of Queen Kunti. I don't know if it's a god, this Kunti or not, but somehow I didn't really care about it. For the above reasons. Unfortunately, I cannot do that with Christianity. Perhaps it is also because this religion is too emotionally charged.

[LogicalFallacy]

6 hours ago, Aibao said:

Why am I not afraid of the Egyptian god and I must admit that I am not afraid of the Greek Zeus either - because I have not found a single person who would convince me of such gods. Because it was considered a mythology, I doubt that even in Greece, the Greeks pray to Zeus or to Artemis.

 

The Greeks certainly used to - in fact Socrates was executed in part due to questioning of the gods. They only became considered mythology after other religions took over power.

 

6 hours ago, Aibao said:

Rather, no one has had a wonderful experience with Anubis or a unicorn, and with the Jewish Jesus it is. Why are there so many miraculous conversions to Christianity and not to Hinduism, not to Buddhism, not to Anubis, not to the unicorn.

 

Consider: What religion does the world dominant culture and powers push? Christianity. Do you think perhaps then that much of the 'miraculous conversions' are a result of social programming, rather than because of any truth of Christianity? 

 

I can also point you to miraculous conversions to and from all religions, the three Abrahamic ones being the most common, but again I point you to the fact that they are by far the most popular religions.

 

6 hours ago, Aibao said:

I only met a man once who was probably from the Hare Krishna sect. We talked about yoga. He handed me a book on the teachings of Queen Kunti. I don't know if it's a god, this Kunti or not, but somehow I didn't really care about it. For the above reasons. Unfortunately, I cannot do that with Christianity. Perhaps it is also because this religion is too emotionally charged.

 

You are from Poland yes? A heavily conservative christian nation. (Mainly Catholic) As to why you don't find Hare Krishna convincing, but wonder about Christianity, I again point you to the culture in which you were raised. You might find there's a bit of confirmation bias going on.

 

For some reason if I tell someone that there is a transcendent immaterial pink unicorn who died so they could have free rides, and I sincerely believe that and try and convert people to the truth of the Great Horned One I'm considered delusional.

 

If, on the other hand I believe that there is a transcendent immaterial being who had a son who sacrificed himself to himself (I and the father are one) so he could save humanity from his own judgement and try and convert people to the Truth (TM) I'm considered a rational Christian. 

 

Is there something wrong with this picture? Yes, yes there is, the picture is broken!

[◊ Weezer ◊]

Aibao, I think Walter had a good idea about going to Germany for help.  They have some of the best mental health care in Europe.  After reading your latest posts, I am thinking you may be having a manic episode.  Are you staying awake for long periods of time, and having excess energy, and racing, fleeting thoughts?  And perhaps not slowing down long enough to eat properly?  If so, you likely need some medication to help slow you down and prevent an emotional crash.

 

Also it appears you have not read my personal message to you.  Please read that also.

[pantheory]

On 7/5/2022 at 2:53 PM, Aibao said:

I do not have the courage to start another topic, but for some time now I have been starting to look at life and the world differently - as if everything would end in a moment (at least in my case). Therefore, it is important for me to deal with the most pressing issues. Thank you for being with me, because every answer you give me makes me think even though I don't seem to be listening because I keep asking questions. My questions have been ready for a long time and saved in my notebook. I try not to ask all the questions that I wrote down, but only those that I haven't found an answer to anywhere. I collect answers. Each answer leads me to something, e.g. today I bought a few books that I am going to read. I've already looked through them on the train. I will give up only when someone decides that I violate some rules by asking. As long as I can, I will keep asking. Thank you again for everything, you are my support. Thank you for the hints that I should go to a specialist. For now, I am working on a doctor's book on the brain and gut. Religious trauma and other things may have made me feel disturbed. Some thoughts have returned to me for some time, I have the impression that I am standing over the blood between life and death, and the feeling of loneliness and emptiness and hurt is unbearable, it's kind of killing me (but this is not the place to talk about it) - that sometimes it seems to me that I need the love that Jesus has for us and maybe I should return to Christianity, but then I collide with the concept of hell and all Christian "love" breaks away like a charm ...

My main questions: did you find greater love outside of Christianity or do you yearn for this great love of Jesus?

 

 

Here are some thoughts on the confirmation error and cognitive dissonance - as the devil's advocate, or rather the other way around, I assumed that what if Christianity turned out to be true, could some cognitive dissonance result from it, or rather such dissonance concerns only religion as false and any other conspiracy theories?

 

 

Is it not that everything depends on a preconceived worldview - that is, for example, if we are prejudiced against Christianity, we will not be convinced by any evidence or arguments for this religion. And conversely. So how do you approach it objectively and examine it all objectively?
Similarly, isn't it that emotions, not logic, influence belief? For example, it upsets us and outrages us that the God of the Old Testament is so genocidal and vindictive, so we reject Christianity without thinking. But if we remove emotions from the belief that God is vengeful in the Old Testament, we are left with a pure, unemotional argument that can be explained with apologetic answers. So if we remove emotions from each argument, is there nothing else for us to do but accept the Christian claims? For example, Paulogia, who publishes atheistic or agnostic films on YouTube, admitted in one of them that evil and suffering in the world was not the cause of his turning away from Christianity, and he even believes that if God exists, he has his moral reasons to tolerate evil, but we just can't understand it. unlike Paulogia, Bart Ehrman departed from this religion mainly because of the presence of so much evil and suffering in the world. But if, as Paulogia says, we do not understand why God allows evil, then maybe we do not understand that God exists? Even if the evolution is correct and the Christian arguments are illogical, maybe it still does not prevent God from existing?

 

Is it not that Christianity makes us feel hurt or we feel bad in this religion (as in my case), so we go out and look for something that will confirm our beliefs, evidence that this religion is wrong and false, but this may result from our confirmation error, because we no longer want to be Christian, but is it true, for example? Just as an alcoholic seeks an excuse to drink and confirms why drinking alcohol is good, we justify our atheism? Or maybe it is the Holy Spirit who sends me explanations and various thoughts to return to my Christianity? How do you see it? Is there any rational explanation for why I am having these thoughts?

After leaving the church, I thought that if God exists, let him try and look for me, I have already done what I could. After a few years, my mother began to put pressure on me to look for a god, to read about Satan, hell, etc. I'm starting to worry if that wasn't God's answer to the fact that I wanted God to look for me now? Like some clergyman or pastor prayed for a friend's conversion and he was converted but after that pastor died. But on the way, I had become so discouraged from religion that it is difficult for me to come back to it. How do I know if there is something in answer to a prayer or not? How to find out? How to explain it?

 

For example, does healthy eating not exist because there is a lot of opinions about what is healthy and what is not? Can the same be said about God or about the truthfulness of Christianity? Same as, for example, the stupid argument sounds, since you are vegan and you don't eat animals, how can you eat live plants? after all, it is also a living being and animal food, so you take their food from them (I met with such an argument from the opponent of veganism). I think this argument sounds silly to vegans. But can the atist arguments against religion be similarly addressed? For example, the universe does exist, so it had to be created, it couldn't have arisen just like that, just out of nothing?
Just as there are good arguments for and against vegetarianism, so can Christianity. So how do you know what is really right and true? Because it suits me and this - should I choose subjectively?
There are people who believe that you have to eat meat, eggs etc. and have arguments for this from evolution, and eating only fruits and vegetables leads to malnutrition, etc. There are also people who, on the contrary, healed of diseases by eating only fruit or by fasting aqueous. I personally know a person who recovered from the coronavirus in a few days and that person is vegan and leads an active lifestyle. There are people who, when they poorly carry out a fruit diet, can get sick, and there are people who eat everything and even old food and are doing well (my grandmother is now 83 years old, does not like vegetables, eats little fruit, a lot of meat) . Regarding Christianity and atheism: there are people who feel good in this religion, and there are also people who are traumatized by this religion. Based on my analogy with healthy and junk food, does this mean that the truth is unattainable? That we will never know whether, for example, veganism or fruitarianism is the best diet option or Christianity is true, but if someone lives badly as a Christian or does not understand how to live, he ends up traumatized like I do after this religion, but it does not mean that it is not true ? Maybe just like going on a fruit diet, you need to cleanse yourself in order to like fruit and for it to work, can you similarly say about Christianity that you have to want to believe and clear your mind of skepticism, for example, and then you will see or find out that God really exists?

 

Regarding the confirmation error, I'm afraid I assumed at the outset that God didn't exist. I was leaning towards atheism, so my confirmation error leads me to atheism while God can exist. As with scientific research, e.g. there is a lot of scientific research on a given topic, but the fact that there is a lot of research does not mean that it is all true. So, on the contrary, just because Christianity is considered less and less credible does not necessarily mean that it is not.
The confirmation error may also be that I identify with some atheists who have had bad experiences with the church, but just because I think the church is bad doesn't necessarily mean that everyone is bad and that the God of the Bible does not exist.

Just like some people think that women's periods are unnatural and they have scientific research for it - some people think it's natural and they have scientific research for it too. Who's right? There is only one truth, but which one? It is similar with Christianity and atheism. Both sides have good arguments for and against, but who is right? Who is wrong and who is telling the truth?

I have come across such a statement that if I constantly think of Christianity as negative and destructive, I will fall into the confusion of confirmation and get discouraged by this religion and start looking for arguments against and I will not know the truth. So it all depends on how you look at a given view. As a result, I don't know how I should research this religion to find out if it's true or not. If I have too much atheistic material, and too little Christian material, I feel guilty and think that I cannot investigate it because I am collecting materials dishonestly ..

 

Please, if anyone can, someone please point me to the errors in my "what if" argument. However stupid it is, I heard somewhere that analogies are not evidence - are what I wrote are all analogies? Sometimes it seems to me that you can build a proof from an analogy. I included too much in one text. I only wanted to ask 1 question, but then found that to cover all the confirmation error and dissonance I need to write more for clarity and different possibilities.

 

 

Hi again Albao,

 

If your family loves you, then you know how to love almost instinctively. If not it can be learned by practicing it rather than receiving it. What is wrong with Christianity and all religions IMO is how stupid the belief in religion really is. Reading Genesis and Revelation, Noah's Ark are meant for the very weak minded IMO. Religion has zero logic and is based upon family and societal respect. I understand that you are intelligent, so how could you believe in the Santa Clause and Dracula of the Bible? -- it's not even a good story for children. It was written for people thousands of years ago that had no knowledge concerning reality or how stupid the Bible really is. Find love with humans, animals, plants, whatever, but forget the imaginary world of Religion, Santa Clause and his Reindeers, the Easter Bunny, and the tooth fairy. You're too smart to swallow any of that BS.  

 

Most of the people I know that tested positive for the Corona virus had little or no symptoms, felt fine, and tested negative within days. Underlying health conditions can lead to bigger problems.

[Aibao]

6 hours ago, pantheory said:

 

Hi again Albao,

 

If your family loves you, then you know how to love almost instinctively. If not it can be learned by practicing it rather than receiving it. What is wrong with Christianity and all religions IMO is how stupid the belief in religion really is. Reading Genesis and Revelation, Noah's Ark are meant for the very weak minded IMO. Religion has zero logic and is based upon family and societal respect. I understand that you are intelligent, so how could you believe in the Santa Clause and Dracula of the Bible? -- it's not even a good story for children. It was written for people thousands of years ago that had no knowledge concerning reality or how stupid the Bible really is. Find love with humans, animals, plants, whatever, but forget the imaginary world of Religion, Santa Clause and his Reindeers, the Easter Bunny, and the tooth fairy. You're too smart to swallow any of that BS.  

 

Most of the people I know that tested positive for the Corona virus had little or no symptoms, felt fine, and tested negative within days. Underlying health conditions can lead to bigger problems.

You made an important point - logic. When I started reading atheistic books, I thought: How could I be so naive and fall for Christianity? I talked to my mom, who started putting pressure on me: I'm scared for you, you're going to hell! you must take care of your soul! - I said: can I later? I don't feel like religious topics. - no fear, no worry. But my mom pushed, she was almost in a panic. So I agreed: 1 article on demons, 2, 3, 4 etc. Until I found myself in a place of fear, panicked, crying and alone in the middle of the night, at the beginning of my insomnia. Another conversation with my mother on another day. But my mother has even come out of Christianity! I explain to her that I am afraid that I repeat the same subject over and over again in college, my friend started asking me about my mental health, I cannot cope with anxiety. my mom tried to help me explain that she was wrong and she didn't want bad for me. If you hadn't been persuading me to read about religion then, why? - don't blame me! do not blame me! You are creating your own hell! - these were the only words later that I could hear from my mother. But yes. I felt so much guilty that I blamed myself for the debts of my family, which I had nothing to do with, and for almost everything. I'm starting to feel guilty for my life. I'm just curious how long I can live like this, barely swallowing my food lately, as if a voice were telling me: you don't deserve anything, you can't even eat, you can't do anything. Or is it a demon? I'm sorry to be such a problem. I wasn't like that, after leaving church, I recovered after a few weeks. But the wound was scratched.

[Aibao]

I'm sorry - I started talking about myself, and I wanted to talk about logic. So the important point you touched upon was logic - it used to be easy for me once: my one unanswered but important prayer was slowly leading me to deconversion. Sermons, often contradicting one another, too. In the end, I couldn't stand it, and the behavior of people in the church towards me provoked me to finally leave this religion. The only thing left for me is that I didn't stop believing in God - I just figured God didn't want me on his team. Due to this rejection, I felt a physical ache in my heart as I walked and my almost last prayer to God. I knew I was going to Hell, but I was not afraid because I was hoping that God, who was my friend, would show me mercy because he knows the situations that led me to leave. It was all logical to me. This could be compared to a husband leaving his wife, or a wife leaving her husband where one person knows she was loved by the other, so it makes sense that you won't put that person into eternal torture, right? That's what I thought then.

 

It was only later, when my mother persuaded me to read about demons, which led me to the subject of hell, which in turn led me to Christian topics, that I found out that this God is not such a nice guy at all. I also listened to Paul Washer, who put a particularly strong emphasis on the King-God-Lord, comparing him to the mafiosis, who may know you and save your life, or may consider you his enemy and condemn you to torture. I thought that since the stakes are so high and it may be true, then Christianity is a topic worth considering. But I was stuck, mentally exhausted (before I started these topics, I assumed that I would be mentally exhausted because I know myself and my brain enough to know what upsets me, but I took the risk). What made my logic crash? Apologetics. This is it. Apologetics can explain everything to you, even genocide can show you in a good light in such a way that it won't seem bad to you at all. This is the second major problem outside of Hell. Apologetic explanations destroyed my logic.

[pantheory]

1 hour ago, Aibao said:

You made an important point - logic. When I started reading atheistic books, I thought: How could I be so naive and fall for Christianity? I talked to my mom, who started putting pressure on me: I'm scared for you, you're going to hell! you must take care of your soul! - I said: can I later? I don't feel like religious topics. - no fear, no worry. But my mom pushed, she was almost in a panic. So I agreed: 1 article on demons, 2, 3, 4 etc. Until I found myself in a place of fear, panicked, crying and alone in the middle of the night, at the beginning of my insomnia. Another conversation with my mother on another day. But my mother has even come out of Christianity! I explain to her that I am afraid that I repeat the same subject over and over again in college, my friend started asking me about my mental health, I cannot cope with anxiety. my mom tried to help me explain that she was wrong and she didn't want bad for me. If you hadn't been persuading me to read about religion then, why? - don't blame me! do not blame me! You are creating your own hell! - these were the only words later that I could hear from my mother. But yes. I felt so much guilty that I blamed myself for the debts of my family, which I had nothing to do with, and for almost everything. I'm starting to feel guilty for my life. I'm just curious how long I can live like this, barely swallowing my food lately, as if a voice were telling me: you don't deserve anything, you can't even eat, you can't do anything. Or is it a demon? I'm sorry to be such a problem. I wasn't like that, after leaving church, I recovered after a few weeks. But the wound was scratched.

 

From what you have said,  your mom is a very good person. She just wants the best for you like all good parents. Never appose her since she will always have your best interest at hart, But without apposing her, you  are old enough to consider what sounds logical to you and what does not. Start with the Bible and the book of Genesis, progress to Noah's Ark, then read Revelation. Do they sound logical to you? if so then believe them,  f not you have the right to think for yourself, right?

[◊ Weezer ◊]

1 hour ago, pantheory said:

 

Never appose her since she will always have your best interest at hart,

 

I'm hot exactly sure what you mean by not apposing her mother, but I believe there comes a time when a person has to stand up for themselves.  Her mother may mean well, but she may have distored views that are detrimental for Aibao.  I finally had to stand up to my controlling mother and tell her I was now grown up and would be making my own decisions in the furure.   After a few more tries she finally gave up and In later years actually came to me for advise.  In reality, parents do not always know what is in the best interest of their kids.  

[pantheory]

18 minutes ago, Weezer said:

I'm hot exactly sure what you mean by not apposing her mother, but I believe there comes a time when a person has to stand up for themselves.  Her mother may mean well, but she may have distored views that are detrimental for Aibao.  I finally had to stand up to my controlling mother and tell her I was now grown up and would be making my own decisions in the furure.   After a few more tries she finally gave up and In later years actually came to me for advise.  In reality, parents do not always know what is in the best interest of their kids.  

 

Yes, but she can do so without apposing her mother IMO. Just say OK, then think for herself. don't openly appose someone who has your best interest at heart. Believe what you will, which can be done without apposition if you are clever enough IMO. My own mother seriously wanted me to believe in God, but I told her I was an atheist in time, but I would never veer from being the good person she expected me to be based upon her upbringing of me. She finally accepted it, but thought of me thereafter as an educated fool , but never told me that to my face. 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

Your experience sounds similar to mine.  Yes, I believe in respecting parents and giving them credit where it is due.  

[Aibao]

On 8.07.2022 at 00:46, pantheory said:

 

Z tego, co powiedziałeś, twoja mama jest bardzo dobrą osobą. Ona po prostu chce dla ciebie jak najlepiej, jak wszyscy dobrzy rodzice. Nigdy jej nie nakłaniaj, ponieważ zawsze będzie w twoim najlepszym interesie. Ale bez udawania jej jesteś na tyle dorosły, by zastanowić się, co brzmi dla ciebie logicznie, a co nie. Zacznij od Biblii i Księgi Rodzaju, przejdź do Arki Noego, a następnie przeczytaj Objawienie. Czy dla ciebie brzmią logicznie? jeśli tak, to wierz im, jeśli nie masz prawa myśleć za siebie, prawda?

You see, I never really thought about Noah's Ark, the apocalypse, etc, even when I was an active member of the church. I just never had much interest in history. At school, history was boring for me, only today I see that history is important - but at school we discussed so little that we barely got to discussing World War II and it ends suddenly .... Besides, I found out that even in world history there were counterfeits. And again - a Christian could say that it is Satan that mixes everywhere, because if historians could falsify stories, the Bible could also be ... well, I am trying to investigate this issue, whether the Bible was somehow ... forged ? For example, maybe it's stupid, but I never found in Jesus' statements the main message they teach in the church: "Confess Jesus as your lord and savior and you will be free from damnation forever." Yes, it was in Paul's letters, but it seems to me that Jesus never said that (correct me if I am wrong). But the main problem with Noah's ark etc for me is the apologetic explanations, because I noticed that no matter how pointless anything in the biblical stories, the apologists will make it so confusing that you lose your meaning and get lost (at least in my case) . So since everything can be explained apologetically - what is and what is not true? There are several truths?

[Aibao]

On 7/8/2022 at 2:26 AM, pantheory said:

 

Yes, but she can do so without apposing her mother IMO. Just say OK, then think for herself. don't openly appose someone who has your best interest at heart. Believe what you will, which can be done without apposition if you are clever enough IMO. My own mother seriously wanted me to believe in God, but I told her I was an atheist in time, but I would never veer from being the good person she expected me to be based upon her upbringing of me. She finally accepted it, but thought of me thereafter as an educated fool , but never told me that to my face. 

I understand you. In my case, my grandmother and my dad seem to consider me a fool, but rather for life reasons, I do not know how it is said in America, but in Poland there is something like a "life cripple", "helpless person". I'd rather be considered a fool, honestly, for religious reasons I guess ...

[pantheory]

Yeah Albao, I don't really want you to be an atheist like me or have any belief in particular, I just hope that by studying science and thinking logically of what you read and experience, you will find a better and happier life. Cheers and best wishes

[Mcsnacks]

The Bible is a retelling of the beginning, with a lot left out because it was intended to be used a tool to gain power and wealth, never to reveal truth. The story is one told a hundred different ways in just as many cultures, the fact that the story is identical across the planet from groups who never interacted means the story is true. Translating the ancient texts and hieroglyphs tells the story of a race of beings that some called Angels, others they were known as Priests, some even said Gods. Their understanding of them was limited. Today we would have called them extraterrestrial beings. We were made in their image so the differences would be minor things like they were 8 ft tall and man was 5ft or less so giants they would have been seen as. 12 were sent by their Lord or Master to tame the wild Neanderthals that roamed the planet so they could then be used as slaves. But after years of domesticating them the 12 fell in love with them. Being immortal they weren’t allowed to conceive children but they knew where their Lord kept the information on how to do it. They stole it and began to have children with the daughters of men. When their Lord came to see the progress hundreds of years later he found the planet populated with thousands of beings with souls, which Neanderthals didn’t have. He became angry and decided to destroy the planet and all that lived on it. A Great Flood came and killed 97% of the living on the planet. The survivors were scattered amongst the world separated and having to restart civilization. Thus began the many nations. This is all proven in the DNA of current and past. The traits that come from the Fallen Angels are Blonde hair, Blue Eyes, and the RHnull blood type. These are proven to be extraterrestrial and would be impossible to occur on planet Earth. 

And they will come back Someday. Be prepared. Qabalist out! 

[Aibao]

17 godzin temu panteoria powiedziała:

Tak Albao, naprawdę nie chcę, żebyś był zjadł, jak ja lub miał(a)bykolwiek wierzyć, że masz tylko nadzieję, że studiuje i uczysz się uczyć i myślisz logicznie o tym, co czytasz i doświadczasz, że możesz znaleźć i szczęśliwsze życie. Pozdrowienia i najlepsze życzenia

Thank you. I am an extreme individualist and an introvert - Christianity limits me and scares me, that's why I can't go back there. After all, I want to know if it is true - if this religion is true, I do not see the meaning of life. For others, it might be the opposite - they will see the meaning, but not me. This is what I struggle with, the fear of whether it is true. I've never had such fear. I have never cried out of fear, cried out of humiliation, cried out of beatings, like everyone else in my childhood, but never out of such irrational fear, so it's hard for me to believe myself that it happened to me. it is difficult for me to function normally in such a state because apart from that, I have fears related to everyday life. But Christianity is the greatest fear.

 

That's why I made a challenge to myself: find out if it's true or not. I even had the idea of asking the Christians a few questions about the Bible etc. in their forums, but I gave up on it because it was too much of a confusion of mind for me. If you could answer that question, have you ever wondered about the answers of apologists, and do they make sense to you? For example, Frank Turek has a lot of answers to difficult questions about Christianity, I saved a few of his videos, but I haven't dared to watch it yet and I don't know now if I'll ever do it ....

[pantheory]

1 hour ago, Aibao said:

Thank you. I am an extreme individualist and an introvert - Christianity limits me and scares me, that's why I can't go back there. After all, I want to know if it is true - if this religion is true, I do not see the meaning of life. For others, it might be the opposite - they will see the meaning, but not me. This is what I struggle with, the fear of whether it is true. I've never had such fear. I have never cried out of fear, cried out of humiliation, cried out of beatings, like everyone else in my childhood, but never out of such irrational fear, so it's hard for me to believe myself that it happened to me. it is difficult for me to function normally in such a state because apart from that, I have fears related to everyday life. But Christianity is the greatest fear.

 

That's why I made a challenge to myself: find out if it's true or not. I even had the idea of asking the Christians a few questions about the Bible etc. in their forums, but I gave up on it because it was too much of a confusion of mind for me. If you could answer that question, have you ever wondered about the answers of apologists, and do they make sense to you? For example, Frank Turek has a lot of answers to difficult questions about Christianity, I saved a few of his videos, but I haven't dared to watch it yet and I don't know now if I'll ever do it ....

Howdy again Albao,  and consider that you could never prove the non-existence of God or the spiritual world any more than you could prove the non-existence of invisible pink unicorns. As to the bible and the book of Genesis, here is a good link IMO that shows how ridiculous certain parts of the Bible really are, which have already been falsified by science.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Genesis

 

 

 

 

 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

6 hours ago, Mcsnacks said:

The Bible is a retelling of the beginning, with a lot left out because it was intended to be used a tool to gain power and wealth, never to reveal truth. The story is one told a hundred different ways in just as many cultures, the fact that the story is identical across the planet from groups who never interacted means the story is true. Translating the ancient texts and hieroglyphs tells the story of a race of beings that some called Angels, others they were known as Priests, some even said Gods. Their understanding of them was limited. Today we would have called them extraterrestrial beings. We were made in their image so the differences would be minor things like they were 8 ft tall and man was 5ft or less so giants they would have been seen as. 12 were sent by their Lord or Master to tame the wild Neanderthals that roamed the planet so they could then be used as slaves. But after years of domesticating them the 12 fell in love with them. Being immortal they weren’t allowed to conceive children but they knew where their Lord kept the information on how to do it. They stole it and began to have children with the daughters of men. When their Lord came to see the progress hundreds of years later he found the planet populated with thousands of beings with souls, which Neanderthals didn’t have. He became angry and decided to destroy the planet and all that lived on it. A Great Flood came and killed 97% of the living on the planet. The survivors were scattered amongst the world separated and having to restart civilization. Thus began the many nations. This is all proven in the DNA of current and past. The traits that come from the Fallen Angels are Blonde hair, Blue Eyes, and the RHnull blood type. These are proven to be extraterrestrial and would be impossible to occur on planet Earth. 

And they will come back Someday. Be prepared. Qabalist out! 

 

There are bits and pieces of that post I believe have some possibility.  And some that sound to me like fairy tales.  But I'm not sure Aibao would want to use her thread for further discussion along these lines.   What say you, Aibao?

[Aibao]

On 7/10/2022 at 9:32 PM, Mcsnacks said:

The Bible is a retelling of the beginning, with a lot left out because it was intended to be used a tool to gain power and wealth, never to reveal truth. The story is one told a hundred different ways in just as many cultures, the fact that the story is identical across the planet from groups who never interacted means the story is true. Translating the ancient texts and hieroglyphs tells the story of a race of beings that some called Angels, others they were known as Priests, some even said Gods. Their understanding of them was limited. Today we would have called them extraterrestrial beings. We were made in their image so the differences would be minor things like they were 8 ft tall and man was 5ft or less so giants they would have been seen as. 12 were sent by their Lord or Master to tame the wild Neanderthals that roamed the planet so they could then be used as slaves. But after years of domesticating them the 12 fell in love with them. Being immortal they weren’t allowed to conceive children but they knew where their Lord kept the information on how to do it. They stole it and began to have children with the daughters of men. When their Lord came to see the progress hundreds of years later he found the planet populated with thousands of beings with souls, which Neanderthals didn’t have. He became angry and decided to destroy the planet and all that lived on it. A Great Flood came and killed 97% of the living on the planet. The survivors were scattered amongst the world separated and having to restart civilization. Thus began the many nations. This is all proven in the DNA of current and past. The traits that come from the Fallen Angels are Blonde hair, Blue Eyes, and the RHnull blood type. These are proven to be extraterrestrial and would be impossible to occur on planet Earth. 

And they will come back Someday. Be prepared. Qabalist out! 

It just shows me that a biblical god can be real ... and can you tell me how you interpreted the Bible that way? Why so? How did you come to that? Unless it's just a joke ...

[Aibao]

21 hours ago, Weezer said:

 

Są fragmenty tego postu, które, jak sądzę, mają pewną możliwość. A niektóre brzmią dla mnie jak bajki. Ale nie jestem pewien, czy Aibao chciałaby wykorzystać swój wątek do dalszej dyskusji na ten temat. Co powiesz, Aibao?

Yes sure, I don't see a problem discussing this.

 

Mcsnacks raised something I think I mentioned somewhere earlier - that the Bible mentions stories that can be found in all cultures. This is intriguing and disturbing because it can prove the biblical God.

 

Or it can prove that people tend to create similar myths, just as every culture has music, has sport, has food - and yet ancient China liked Chinese opera, in Poland recognizable music is the so-called disco polo, in Saudi Arabia the so-called nasheed, America was famous for country, if I'm not mistaken (or one of the states), etc. You can analogously say that the Greeks liked Zeus, Artemis, etc., Egyptians of Horus, Israelites Jahveh, Japanese ghosts, the so-called kami, etc.

 

Each culture is stereotypically associated with their food: China - rice, America - fast-food, Japan - sushi, Poland - vodka and bread, Italy - pizza, etc., and yet these stereotypes are not entirely true (in America there are vegans and fruitarians, in Poland there are people who hate alcohol, e.g. my mother and my friend, there will be KFC or other fast food in Japan).

 

So what is the truth? It can be said that since each country has its own stereotype related to food, for example, a common feature for all people is food and nutrition. It seems to be true. Now, moving on - since each culture has some image of a deity, a common trait for all people is - and here's where I have a problem: believing in myths or looking for the only true god? even in the Bible, during Paul's journey, the Greeks worshiped "an unknown god" - it was only Paul who made them realize that this unknown god was Jesus. (I don't remember where it was in the bible, if anyone knows and I got something wrong, please let me know and correct me).

 

This is one of the main problems - a real god can be hidden under the myths of god in all cultures - but which one? What if this is a biblical god?

[◊ Weezer ◊]

3 hours ago, Aibao said:

 

This is one of the main problems - a real god can be hidden under the myths of god in all cultures - but which one? What if this is a biblical god?

 

Perhaps they are all myths.   If a fantasy is persists long enough (especially over a thousand years) people come to believe it.  Especially if the self proclaimed "gurus" claim it is true.  And of course each fantasy claims to be the true one.  But who likes to admit they may have been tricked?  And might be wrong about something.  

 

And if part of the fantasy is that, if you question the fantasy and ditch it, you will be punished for eternity, you may never allow yourself to question the fantasy.  Especially if you came from an authoritarian, fear based background.   That "programmed" childhood has a lot to do with how you respond to religion.

[◊ Weezer ◊]

On 7/10/2022 at 2:32 PM, Mcsnacks said:

 

The Bible .......... was intended to be used a tool to gain power and wealth,

 

 

He got that right!    I hope he comes back and hope he gives us the sources of his secret knowledge, and what that knowledge is.  If the aliens are coming back, will it be to punish or exploit us?  Or give us some pointers on how to make it to their very advanced level??  From all the sightings I have heard about in recent years, they don't seem very mean spirited. 

[Aibao]

19 hours ago, Weezer said:

Być może wszystkie są mitami. Jeśli fantazja trwa wystarczająco długo (zwłaszcza ponad tysiąc lat), ludzie zaczynają w nią wierzyć. Zwłaszcza jeśli samozwańczy „guru” twierdzą, że to prawda. I oczywiście każda fantazja twierdzi, że jest prawdziwa. Ale kto lubi przyznać, że mógł zostać oszukany? I może się w czymś mylić.  

 

A jeśli częścią fantazji jest to, że jeśli zakwestionujesz fantazję i ją porzucisz, zostaniesz ukarany na wieczność, możesz nigdy nie pozwolić sobie na kwestionowanie fantazji. Zwłaszcza jeśli pochodzisz z autorytarnego środowiska opartego na strachu. To „zaprogramowane” dzieciństwo ma wiele wspólnego z tym, jak reagujesz na religię.

Exactly. I just want to find out if this is fanatic because I never thought about it, even after I left the church. But how to check if this is a myth? It is not a very easy task ...