Suffering for the Sins of the World

[walterpthefirst]

20 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

I think you might be taking this in a different direction than I was going in, Walt.  I was looking at Roman's 12:3 which states that god has given everyone the measure of faith; and using that to question if god had simply not given Adam a measure of faith sufficient belief and obedience concerning the fruit.  However, if we tie these two verses together (god gives the measure of faith and faith is the evidence) then in not giving Adam any evidence beyond a concept with which he was unfamiliar (death), then god rather clearly did not give Adam a measure of faith sufficient for belief and obedience. 

 

I'm not sure what Adam could have hoped for.  If he was truly naïve, there's no reason to believe he would understand what hope was; and certainly not in light of despair or any other antonym.

 

Well, that certainly gets around Ed's objection that there was no need for Adam to understand what death was.

 

Edgarcito maintained that Adam should have just obeyed without understanding the meaning of god's warning.

 

Which is what Hebrews 11 says that faith is - obedience without evidence or understanding.

 

But if it is god that gives the measure of faith, the fact that Adam failed the test can only mean what you say Prof.

 

Adam was not given sufficient faith by god to either believe or to obey him.

 

So, even if we go with Ed's faith-based argument god is still at fault and to blame for causing Adam to fail.

 

And what can we conclude about god's morality from that?

 

 

[Edgarcito]

39 minutes ago, Weezer said:

Ed, you avoided my question.  How did the writings of humans become the word of God??   
 

Hey, guys and gals, i want Eds answer. Not yours. help me keep him on track until he gives an answer.

Wheezy, I have little respect for you as it is. You might try asking politely.

[◊ Weezer ◊]

1 minute ago, Edgarcito said:

Wheezy, I have little respect for you as it is. You might try asking politely.

I’m not paying games with you.  Answer the question or not. 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

14 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

Edgarcito maintained that Adam should have just obeyed without understanding the meaning of god's warning.

@Edgarcito knows this would just make us robots or mindless automatons.  And he knows this would destroy any hope he has if mounting an effective "free will" argument. 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

16 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

Which is what Hebrews 11 says that faith is - obedience without evidence or understanding.

Hebrews 11:1, the verse I've been referencing, states that faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen.  The overall impression the writer is trying to convey here is that faith substantiates (gives substance) when there is no physical evidence (things that can be seen).  In other words, when there is no other evidence, faith is the evidence. 

 

Ed is an obvious case in point.  He hopes for more evidence to be forthcoming, despite the historical data of billions of analysts running the same tests for thousands of years.  There is nothing whatsoever to give substance to Ed's hope; and certainly nothing that can be seen and examined supports his claim.  The only evidence he has is faith; which is also the very thing that destroys his claim.  More evidence cannot be forthcoming if the only evidence there is, is faith.

 

So, if Adam failed the test, as the result of lacking faith (evidence), and if god gives to everyone (including Adam) the measure of faith (evidence), then god would certainly be culpable in not giving Adam a sufficient measure of faith or evidence. 

 

The whole thing ties together--the serpent, corrupting Eve (either in creation, or through the serpent), not telling Eve about the fruit, not giving Adam sufficient evidence (faith).  This is all the work of an evil god, hellbent* on ensuring that Sin and Suffering are unleashed upon the earth.

 

 

 

 

*pun intended

[TheRedneckProfessor]

On 9/20/2022 at 5:52 PM, Weezer said:

This goes along with a question on my mind.  You are treating the Bible as absolute truth.  But.  The writings in the Bible were written by humans, and humans decided which writings should go into the Bible, so what made it magically into the word of God?  Any more than the Torah being the word of God?  It is all based on myth.  And much of that myth was metaphorical to begin with, and likely modified through the ages, so how did it become the concrete, inerrant word of God?? 

 

1 hour ago, Weezer said:

Ed, you avoided my question.  How did the writings of humans become the word of God??   

 

33 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Wheezy, I have little respect for you as it is. You might try asking politely.

He already did ask politely, Ed; and you ignored him.  Now answer the man's question.

[walterpthefirst]

Tomorrow...

[sdelsolray]

9 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

...

Ed is an obvious case in point.  He hopes for more evidence to be forthcoming, despite the historical data of billions of analysts running the same tests for thousands of years.  There is nothing whatsoever to give substance to Ed's hope; and certainly nothing that can be seen and examined supports his claim.  The only evidence he has is faith; which is also the very thing that destroys his claim.  More evidence cannot be forthcoming if the only evidence there is, is faith.

...

 

Perhaps Ed has faith that he will develop more faith.

[duderonomy]

1 hour ago, walterpthefirst said:

Tomorrow...

 

I love ya, you're only a day away!

[pantheory]

11 hours ago, duderonomy said:

 

I love ya, you're only a day away!

Talking about suffering from the sins of the world   The song "Tomorrow," contains your words above, from the musical Annie, based upon the character Little Orphan Annie, and the comic book strip title of the same name. The comic strip, took its name from the 1885 poem "Little Orphan Annie" by James Whitcomb Riley. It made its comic book debut in 1924, in the New York Daily News. The pages  of newspapers that had comics were called "the funny papers." The funny papers character Anne became an orphan living during the U.S. great depression of the 1930’s, who was then adopted by a very rich man called "Daddy Warbucks."  The song Tomarrow was based on the funny paper's character Annie, The music was written by Charles Strouse, with lyrics by Martin Charnin, published in 1977.

Movies based upon Little Orphan Annie and Daddy Warbucks, started with the film Little Orphan Annie comedy film was released in a 1932, directed by John S. Robertson.  It was based on the funny paper's character Little Orphan Annie by Harold Gray. This first film stared Mitzi Green, Buster Phelps and others

A more modern film of “Annie” was made in 1982 which contained the 1977 song Tomorrow, mentioned above. Thomas Meehan was the Tony Award winning  librettist  of the Broadway musicals of the same name and character Annie, in 1977.

[duderonomy]

11 minutes ago, pantheory said:

Talking about suffering from the sins of the world   The song "Tomorrow," contains your words above, from the musical Annie, based upon the character Little Orphan Annie, and the comic book strip title of the same name. The comic strip, took its name from the 1885 poem "Little Orphan Annie" by James Whitcomb Riley. It made its comic book debut in 1924, in the New York Daily News. The comic book character became an orphan living during the U.S. depression during the 1930’s, who was then adopted by a very rich man called "Daddy Warbucks."  The song Annie, was based on the comic book character, The music was written by Charles Strouse, with lyrics by Martin Charnin, published in 1977.

Movies based upon Little Orphan Annie and Daddy Warbucks, started with the film Little Orphan Annie released in a 1932 comedy film directed by John S. Robertson.  It was based on the comic book character Little Orphan Annie by Harold Gray. The film stared Mitzi Green, Buster Phelps and others

 

 

A more modern film of “Annie” was made in 1982 which contained the 1977 song Tomorrow, mentioned above. Thomas Meehan was the Tony Award winning  librettist  of the Broadway musicals of the same name and character Annie, in 1977.

 

 

 

 

Wow, thanks for letting me know all of that!

[walterpthefirst]

10 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Hebrews 11:1, the verse I've been referencing, states that faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen.  The overall impression the writer is trying to convey here is that faith substantiates (gives substance) when there is no physical evidence (things that can be seen).  In other words, when there is no other evidence, faith is the evidence. 

 

 

 

After some thought I concur, Prof.

 

In Hebrews 11 it says that Abraham looked forward from his situation (living in tents in the desert) to a holy city with foundations, presumably the one described in Revelation - the New Jerusalem. He didn't see this city but looked forward to it in faith.

 

Therefore, his faith was the substantiation where no physical evidence was to hand.  

 

I agree, Prof.

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

12 hours ago, sdelsolray said:

Perhaps Ed has faith that he will develop more faith.

Just not in any way he can demonstrate, though, right?

[Edgarcito]

13 hours ago, sdelsolray said:

Perhaps Ed has faith that he will develop more faith.

Always good to see you here sir.

[Edgarcito]

5 hours ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

After some thought I concur, Prof.

 

In Hebrews 11 it says that Abraham looked forward from his situation (living in tents in the desert) to a holy city with foundations, presumably the one described in Revelation - the New Jerusalem. He didn't see this city but looked forward to it in faith.

 

Therefore, his faith was the substantiation where no physical evidence was to hand.  

 

I agree, Prof.

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

+1 for Walter here.  Even though I've personally found several anecdotal examples over the years, the story to me does lean towards there are things we will learn post natural death.  So, yes, I will likely find more anecdotal evidence before I die and also remain faithful while in the process.  

 

 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

51 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

+1 for Walter here.  Even though I've personally found several anecdotal examples over the years, the story to me does lean towards there are things we will learn post natural death.  So, yes, I will likely find more anecdotal evidence before I die and also remain faithful while in the process.  

 

 

 

Well. When ya get up there to see the big man. Maybe you could ask him to give us a bit of tangible evidence if he really loves us. You know. So we don't perish n stuff. 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

@Edgarcito

 

Ok so we've talked about how there is no evidence of an all powerful God. IE he doesn't save children like Rosa, He doesn't stop drugs. Most "miracles" can be explained by natural means. 

 

But what about the lack of evidence where there should be evidence? Or archeological evidence that goes against the Bible narrative? Archeologist tried to use the Bible as a guide for years and every where they went they found evidence. Just not the evidence that they were supposed to find. Does that not cause you to pause? 

 

Because its not just one thing. For instance. 

 

Geology - no evidence of a world wide flood. But definite evidence for large localized flooding that may have lead to the various flood myths. 

 

Physics- the tower of babel would have collapsed under its own weight. There was no danger of mankind making it to heaven. So why does God confuse the languages again?

 

Archeology- to go with the above. Archeologist can see how languages developed over time. It wasn't a one and done event. It had nothing to do with the tower of babel. 

 

Writing analysis- Fogeries have been found in the bible. Even Christian scholars concede that there are forgeries in the bible. 

 

The above gives proof that the Bible is not inerrant.

 

Then there is the type of issues that have been addressed on this thread.

 

Thats just a few things off the top of my head. 

 

The Bible fails to prove itself out in every arena. Can you hardly blame the intellectual elite for thinking anyone trying to use the Bible or faith as proof is laughable? At this point not only can I not understand how I believed fervently for over a decade of my life. I don't understand why anyone does. 

 

DB

[walterpthefirst]

3 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

+1 for Walter here.  Even though I've personally found several anecdotal examples over the years, the story to me does lean towards there are things we will learn post natural death.  So, yes, I will likely find more anecdotal evidence before I die and also remain faithful while in the process.  

 

 

 

Well, thank you Ed.

 

 

 

But have you considered the deadly trap that comes with faith being the substance of things unseen?

 

If what you hope for is unseen, how do you know it's even real?

 

You know that it's real by faith?

 

Then you are using evidence-free faith in unseen things to support your evidence-free faith in other unseen things.

 

Can you not see that this is just a precariously-balanced house of cards?

 

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

1 hour ago, walterpthefirst said:

Can you not see

Was this wording intentional? 

[sdelsolray]

12 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Just not in any way he can demonstrate, though, right?

Only time will tell.

[◊ Weezer ◊]

I guess Ed decided to not answer my question.  Another question I have is, WHY?

[duderonomy]

10 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

 

Well. When ya get up there to see the big man. Maybe you could ask him to give us a bit of tangible evidence if he really loves us. You know. So we don't perish n stuff. 

 

 

Tangible? Well about four and a half billion years ago...

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

25 minutes ago, duderonomy said:

 

 

Tangible? Well about four and a half billion years ago...

That'd be a good place to start. Personal appearance and explain our fossil record. Bc it sure doesn't match what he said in the Bible lol. 

[duderonomy]

7 hours ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

Well, thank you Ed.

 

 

 

But have you considered the deadly trap that comes with faith being the substance of things unseen?

 

If what you hope for is unseen, how do you know it's even real?

 

You know that it's real by faith?

 

Then you are using evidence-free faith in unseen things to support your evidence-free faith in other unseen things.

 

Can you not see that this is just a precariously-balanced house of cards?

 

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Walter,

 

Just stopping in to pounce on your inference here. 

 

Tell me again how the earth is not the center of the universe, and show your work so we know it's true. 

 

[midniterider]

Earth. Why does Walter think it's real?