Generational Sin

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

We didn't go to in depth but in @Edgarcitos last thread we touched on the generational sins written about in the old testament. 

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but you felt that God might be adjusting our DNA because of generation sins like alcoholism, obesity, and even abuse right?

 

Can you just repeat your thoughts. I'm no genealogist but there might be one around here somewhere that might wanna jump in too. 

 

DB

[Edgarcito]

1 hour ago, DarkBishop said:

We didn't go to in depth but in @Edgarcitos last thread we touched on the generational sins written about in the old testament. 

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but you felt that God might be adjusting our DNA because of generation sins like alcoholism, obesity, and even abuse right?

 

Can you just repeat your thoughts. I'm no genealogist but there might be one around here somewhere that might wanna jump in too. 

 

DB

I think the best thing you might do so you won't have to rely on my likely errant explanation is search "epigenetics".....or "sins of the father epigenetics".  I'm sure there have since been many developments into the understanding since dissemination five to ten years ago.  Thx. 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

https://www.nature.com/articles/507022a

 

https://www.nature.com/articles/5201567

 

And here's one where a christian attempts to tie epigenetics to religion, which, I'm guessing is what Ed is aiming to do:

 

https://reasons.org/explore/publications/articles/epigenetics-sins-of-the-father

 

 

 

 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

33 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

https://www.nature.com/articles/507022a

 

https://www.nature.com/articles/5201567

 

And here's one where a christian attempts to tie epigenetics to religion, which, I'm guessing is what Ed is aiming to do:

 

https://reasons.org/explore/publications/articles/epigenetics-sins-of-the-father

 

 

 

 

Yep.I think so. 

 

So @Edgarcito,

 

How about you read up on what RNP posted. Your the one that is thinking in that direction. I havent really looked at it either. So we can all look at what's being said and then discuss it. 

 

Sound good?

 

DB

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

Well one thing. Right off the rip, im wondering why in the world he would consider this god working on our genes to punish us for past sins. 

 

It talked about how obesity was worse in the decendants of people who went through famine. For one. What makes him think those people sinned? Their offspring was born with a better adaptation to go without food. This is what humans have already done. That's why our skin are different colors according to where our ancestors evolved. Our bodies adapt over generations just like all other animals. 

 

So what about the rats they were testing? Is he holding rats accountable for sin now? 

 

This one is a bit out there. I can see why a Christian would jump to that. But it isn't just humans. Its all life on earth that does this. Moths changed colors over time to camouflage themselves. 

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-36424768.amp

 

I don't see much of a valid argument. 

 

 

DB

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

I said in the other thread that I don't think generational sin made it past Jesus. So I'm gonna look into that tomorrow, well as much as I can. Ill be at work tomorrow through Sunday. Wasnt really one of my churches focuses. It was almost never mentioned. But I'll check it out. 

[walterpthefirst]

Perhaps it would help if Edgarcito could shed some light on his position re: the origin of generational sin?

 

Specifically, that because Eve was the mother of all the living (Genesis 3 : 20) that all generational sin originates from her?

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Here's another one that might help Ed make his argument:

 

https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/glory2godforallthings/2017/04/27/sins-fathers-epigenetics-shame/

[TheRedneckProfessor]

https://www.givelegacy.com/resources/epigenetic-inheritance-can-fathers-pass-on-experiences-through-their-genes/

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

Here is the verse in the 10 commandments. 

 

Exodus 20

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

 

Exodus 34

5 And the Lord descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the Lord.

6 And the Lord passed by before him, and proclaimed, The Lord, The Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,

7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

 

Its really not talked about to much in the bible. I'm having a hard time finding a lot of verses in the bible to support it. These are the first two. It looks this ideology came in with all the Mosaic laws.

 

But again I'm finding that this was probably influenced by other mythologies in the area. It seems to be more predominant in Greek mythology. @mwcmight be interested in that aspect of it too. 

 

DB

[Edgarcito]

Maybe I'm reading the articles incorrectly, but the genetic change reverts back over a few generations?  Seems like a decent match to what the verse says.

[walterpthefirst]

https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/glory2godforallthings/2017/04/27/sins-fathers-epigenetics-shame/

 

I'm having trouble with the content of this link.

 

Father Stephen Freeman seems to want to make the case that sins are 'wounds' of some kind.  Some kind of emotional or mental trauma in one generation that gets passed down to the following generations.  He cites the case of his paternal grandfather failing to make a go of his farm and the effects of this 'wound' echoing down to him.

 

But wait!

 

One man's failure in farming isn't a sin against god.  And surely, in the context of biblical Christianity, that is the true measure of sin.  The deliberate and wilful disobedience to the will of god.  According to scripture ALL sin originates from such an act of disobedience from Adam and Eve.  So how does failing to make a farm work equate to wilful disobedience to god?  Not in any way that I can see.

 

I therefore submit that Father Stephen is mixing up two different things here.  I agree that emotional/mental traumas may be transferred from generation to generation.  But that is a whole different ball game to saying that the effects of sins against god are therefore transferred in the same way.

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

[walterpthefirst]

26 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Maybe I'm reading the articles incorrectly, but the genetic change reverts back over a few generations?  Seems like a decent match to what the verse says.

 

The genetic reversion mentioned in the articles is a natural process.

 

So, if god's forgiveness brings such reversion, wouldn't he have to involved in the case studies mentioned in the articles?

 

Otherwise, there would be no such reversion?

 

?

[Edgarcito]

13 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

The genetic reversion mentioned in the articles is a natural process.

 

So, if god's forgiveness brings such reversion, wouldn't he have to involved in the case studies mentioned in the articles?

 

Otherwise, there would be no such reversion?

 

?

I see the NT verses just saying that there is salvation through Christ.  I don't see it as the process stopping.  My body can still pass on my behaviors to my progeny....apparently. 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

15 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

I see the NT verses just saying that there is salvation through Christ.  I don't see it as the process stopping.  My body can still pass on my behaviors to my progeny....apparently. 

 

How do these types of genetic changes not only happen in humans bit also the mice in the experiment and many other animals? This is an evolutionary trait. Not a biblical punishment for sin. 

 

Consider this scripture. Also from the old testament. 

 

Ezekiel 18

14 Now, lo, if he beget a son, that seeth all his father's sins which he hath done, and considereth, and doeth not such like,

15 That hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, hath not defiled his neighbour's wife,

16 Neither hath oppressed any, hath not withholden the pledge, neither hath spoiled by violence, but hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment,

17 That hath taken off his hand from the poor, that hath not received usury nor increase, hath executed my judgments, hath walked in my statutes; he shall not die for the iniquity of his father, he shall surely live.

18 As for his father, because he cruelly oppressed, spoiled his brother by violence, and did that which is not good among his people, lo, even he shall die in his iniquity.

 

You see here that God is going against the initial statute laid down in the commandments given by Moses. In this as long as the son follows God he will not be punished as his father will be. 

 

This is yet another contradiction. 

 

DB

[TheRedneckProfessor]

I think the confusion here, @Edgarcito, or the question on everyone's mind at the moment is:  What possible connection could you be trying to make between the possibility of pinkie mice developing an enhanced sensitivity to a certain odor as a result of torturous experiments their grandfather's endured, and the idea that god is going to punish Jeb for his dad's philandering ways?  If you could articulate that connection, preferably without too much word salad with vaguery dressing, it would give everyone a better idea of what this conversation is supposed to be about.  I'm going to try to stay on the sidelines as much as possible, as genetics is a large part of my profession, and this would seem to give me an unfair advantage.  But, in the role of moderator, I do have a vested interest in getting the conversation started, or at least in fostering understanding between our members.  Thanks.

[Edgarcito]

3 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

 

How do these types of genetic changes not only happen in humans bit also the mice in the experiment and many other animals? This is an evolutionary trait. Not a biblical punishment for sin. 

 

Consider this scripture. Also from the old testament. 

 

Ezekiel 18

14 Now, lo, if he beget a son, that seeth all his father's sins which he hath done, and considereth, and doeth not such like,

15 That hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, hath not defiled his neighbour's wife,

16 Neither hath oppressed any, hath not withholden the pledge, neither hath spoiled by violence, but hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment,

17 That hath taken off his hand from the poor, that hath not received usury nor increase, hath executed my judgments, hath walked in my statutes; he shall not die for the iniquity of his father, he shall surely live.

18 As for his father, because he cruelly oppressed, spoiled his brother by violence, and did that which is not good among his people, lo, even he shall die in his iniquity.

 

You see here that God is going against the initial statute laid down in the commandments given by Moses. In this as long as the son follows God he will not be punished as his father will be. 

 

This is yet another contradiction. 

 

DB

I don't see that, it just says, imo, that if the son does not do as the father, he will live instead of die.....not choosing sin.

[Edgarcito]

3 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

I think the confusion here, @Edgarcito, or the question on everyone's mind at the moment is:  What possible connection could you be trying to make between the possibility of pinkie mice developing an enhanced sensitivity to a certain odor as a result of torturous experiments their grandfather's endured, and the idea that god is going to punish Jeb for his dad's philandering ways?  If you could articulate that connection, preferably without too much word salad with vaguery dressing, it would give everyone a better idea of what this conversation is supposed to be about.  I'm going to try to stay on the sidelines as much as possible, as genetics is a large part of my profession, and this would seem to give me an unfair advantage.  But, in the role of moderator, I do have a vested interest in getting the conversation started, or at least in fostering understanding between our members.  Thanks.

All I see is that it physically changes the progeny.  I don't have any feel for how that would affect the child.  We would assume in some manner.  It just changes the initial playing field for the child.  I would expect love to have different physical changes.  Likely how the changes express themselves would be very difficult to understand.  The submitted verses suggest that the offspring still have the ability to choose despite the father.  

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

20 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

I don't see that, it just says, imo, that if the son does not do as the father, he will live instead of die.....not choosing sin.

How about Hebrews 10?

 

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

 

If he no longer remembers our sins and iniquity when we are saved. How can this be passed on? Also you haven't addressed the glaring question of how this trait is repeatable across species? Does God punish the sin of grandpa mouse to the 3rd and 4th generations well?

[TheRedneckProfessor]

10 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

All I see is that it physically changes the progeny.  I don't have any feel for how that would affect the child.  We would assume in some manner.  It just changes the initial playing field for the child.  I would expect love to have different physical changes.  Likely how the changes express themselves would be very difficult to understand.  The submitted verses suggest that the offspring still have the ability to choose despite the father.  

This does not address the connection between "sin" and epigenetics.  It hints at the roles of nature and nurture in a child's upbringing; but does nothing more.  Please clarify the connection in your mind, between "sin" and epigenetics.  Thank you.

[Edgarcito]

36 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

This does not address the connection between "sin" and epigenetics.  It hints at the roles of nature and nurture in a child's upbringing; but does nothing more.  Please clarify the connection in your mind, between "sin" and epigenetics.  Thank you.

You're gonna have to be more specific please.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

2 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

You're gonna have to be more specific please.

Exactly. 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

1 minute ago, Edgarcito said:

You're gonna have to be more specific please.

That is exactly what he was asking you to do. Can you lay out why you think epigenics is proof of the curse laid out in exodus? I'm still looking for verses pertaining to this subject. But there doesn't seem to be much. Not surprising that they didn't really teach on it in the churches I attended. Not enough foundation to form a complete doctrine. 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

3 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

Exodus 20

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Also this seems to be a punishment only for worshipping other Gods. Even in exodus 34 God goes into a rant about the consequences of worshipping other Gods. Ill post more. 

 

Exosdus 34

 

6 And the Lord passed by before him, and proclaimed, The Lord, The Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,

7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

8 And Moses made haste, and bowed his head toward the earth, and worshipped.

9 And he said, If now I have found grace in thy sight, O Lord, let my Lord, I pray thee, go among us; for it is a stiffnecked people; and pardon our iniquity and our sin, and take us for thine inheritance.

10 And he said, Behold, I make a covenant: before all thy people I will do marvels, such as have not been done in all the earth, nor in any nation: and all the people among which thou art shall see the work of the Lord: for it is a terrible thing that I will do with thee.

11 Observe thou that which I command thee this day: behold, I drive out before thee the Amorite, and the Canaanite, and the Hittite, and the Perizzite, and the Hivite, and the Jebusite.

12 Take heed to thyself, lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land whither thou goest, lest it be for a snare in the midst of thee:

13 But ye shall destroy their altars, break their images, and cut down their groves:

14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:

15 Lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and they go a whoring after their gods, and do sacrifice unto their gods, and one call thee, and thou eat of his sacrifice;

16 And thou take of their daughters unto thy sons, and their daughters go a whoring after their gods, and make thy sons go a whoring after their gods.

17 Thou shalt make thee no molten gods.

 

After he says that. In this chapter he goes straight into not worshipping other Gods. 

 

Even when its mentioned in numbers 14:18 the isrealites are turning against moses and Aaron. They are talking about going back to Egypt.  

 

I really think this is a specific curse for a specific sin. Which would not tie in well with genetics being changed by God for anything else. 

 

In the new testament the only mention of this type of thinking is when Jesus heals the blind man. 

 

John 9

And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.

2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?

3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

 

 

 

DB

[Edgarcito]

41 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Exactly. 

Maybe you could lend your expertise to the discussion.