What Is Evidence / How Do We Know What Is Real?

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

40 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

I see it as a lack of God, not God's fault.

I see it as a lack of God as well. Not much of a God if you can't keep a Holy Institution like marriage together. Remember he is supposed to harden or soften hearts according to his will. He supposedly has that power yet perpetually neglects to use it. 

[Edgarcito]

38 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

I see it as a lack of God as well. Not much of a God if you can't keep a Holy Institution like marriage together. Remember he is supposed to harden or soften hearts according to his will. He supposedly has that power yet perpetually neglects to use it. 

Not what I meant.....a lack of maturity in God, my lacking, hers, etc.  

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

1 hour ago, Edgarcito said:

Not what I meant.....a lack of maturity in God, my lacking, hers, etc.  

Oh, I knew what you meant. But a lack of God from my point of view produces the same results. There is no God that actually hardens or softens hearts according to his will. People just make bad decisions, fall out of love, change, cheat, etc, etc. Maybe see greener pastures somewhere else. 

 

There is little that the Bible allows divorce for in the new testament. So it seems fitting that If God set the rules for marriage and divorce he would aid his faithful followers with ALL his powers to follow those rules and have marriage that stands the test of time. 

 

We've already gone over the various promises God made in the bible. You can push it off till the end if you want. But everything points to a true "lack of God". Atleast the Christian one anyway. 

 

This is why my first divorce after believing hit me so hard. I believed in a literal inerrant interpretation of the Bible. I had faith in gods promises to his believers. My wife at the time cheating on me should have never happened if God truly was what the Bible says he was. So yes, I was angry with God for being about as faithful as my wife was. But I continued to believe anyway for years. Thinking, like you. That maybe I would recieve those needed answers when I stood before him. 

 

I've grown a bit wiser in the past 6 years when it comes to God tho. Can't be mad at God if God doesn't exist can I?

 

DB

 

[walterpthefirst]

5 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

Certainly.  Save your lecture please sir.

 

I'm sorry Ed, but I have a duty to this forum to expose not only what is wrong with Christianity but also what is not Christianity, but claims to be.  So, if you don't want to read my reply, then don't.

 

 

 

John 15 : 1 - 8

 

1“I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 

2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. 

3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 

4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 

6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 

7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 

8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

 

 

Those believers who think that just having faith and flying solo will please god are wrong.  The Body of Christ is the literal embodiment of Jesus on earth.  All of its parts need each other, just as every part of our bodies need each other.  God has given certain spiritual gifts to some people and other gifts to others.  He did this so that no believer can say, 'I am in the body of Christ, but I don't need anyone else'.  Christianity is a communal and collective enterprise, not a solitary one.

 

The fruits Jesus speaks of are the fruits of the spirit and if a believer is separated from Christ's body then they cannot bear these fruits in their life.  If they do not remain in Jesus' body (the church) then they can do nothing.  Only by remaining in the church, serving it and participating in its life, can they be given whatever they ask for and can they glorify the Father, by bearing the good fruit of the holy spirit - love, joy peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self control.

 

Apart from Christ's body they will wither and die.  The meaning of Jesus' words is quite plain.  Those believers who have been first cleaned by hearing his word, but who no longer remain in his body will be thrown into the fire on judgment day.  Despite first becoming Christians they did not stay with Christ and so are no longer Christians.  What they think about what they are and how they define themselves is irrelevant.  It is god who defines and decides who his body is.

 

Therefore, the fires of hell are at the back of these, so-called Christians and they will never enter heaven, no matter how much they hope for it or delude themselves into believing that they will.

 

 

Thank you, 

 

Walter.

 

 

[aik]

Hello everyone dear friends. I ain"t seen you for ages. 

 

First i got fever. For several days in a row i had a temperature. Then it got further and i got pilonidal disease (i found it in google. Lol.) Then i was cut. And now i feel better, and trying to come back. 

 

This period i loved to separate myself from the world, i wanted to use this time to feed my thirst about gods word. Living in the world and having many duties and business i did not feel that my spirits longs for the word of god. But when i was cut from the world, i became happy. It seemed like i had not been eating for three days and got hungry.   

 

In this period i found out about a new telescope james webb which has been shocking the atheists with its new discoveries. The telescope shows that the scientific knowledge concerning universal things, origins and astronomic calculations are merely relative but in most very hypothetic. So that even the scientists when they speak for sure they cannot know it crrtainly. 

 

Lately i read an article talking about an error of one of the fundamental phisical laws, that this law becomes errant because of some reason. I hope i will be able to show you this article if i find it. 

 

Anyway the aim is not just arguing for arguing. I want to show you my dear friends that the scientific knowledge is just a cover for your sinful choice which you had done once in the past and leaving the life itself followed satanic lies and occured in a situation like adam did. He had lordship over animals and was like a king of the earth. He had an eternal life. He had power to do everything, and he was eye to eye speaking with god. Mo need for education, everyday work, no burdens and duties, no kids doing everything to crush your peace .  So he lived the life that none of the mankind did. But he was forbid only one tree. So only only one sinful choice cut him from all the blessing he had. So you like a christian had more than even adam had. You had a vommunion with god, holy spirit in you, holy anointment and power over satanic offerings, over a sin. You could do right without shying from others. You could distroy a lie in the name of jesus and none could say a thing against it. You could bring your heart to god to have it cleansed, corrected, strengthened, etc. And then people could see your peace and love and praise the lord. You could hold you from screaming and doing evil in you family when you were filled with the word of god. And so many things else. But now you have lost it, i hope for a while. You have your intellect, knowledge, proud about what you have, and no spiritual power. Just spending your life as it is flowing. Even if you have all the informations about nature but do not have god, it is vain. But if you have god, you will need nothing more. Your knowledge about nature will not help you, when a child decided to leave your house forever. So please, my dear and beloved friends, think again, recollect. Was it not a sin which you loved more than your saviour, which led you astray from god to an atheistic lie? 

 

I am not trying to prove you wrong just to lower you and make me higher. I really wish you to see back in the blessings which you can have in jesus. 

 

My doctor showed me that peace of something which he cut out from my body. And he said that it was in me for about 5 or 6 years, not less. And i never knew it. I never felt any pain because of it. But once i was released. The same is with a sin. It can abide in ones heart, not aggressively, but one day after many years it will make him fall. 

 

I am speaking to you like with christians. Please notice it. 

[walterpthefirst]

In this period i found out about a new telescope james webb which has been shocking the atheists with its new discoveries. The telescope shows that the scientific knowledge concerning universal things, origins and astronomic calculations are merely relative but in most very hypothetic. So that even the scientists when they speak for sure they cannot know it crrtainly. 

 

Lately i read an article talking about an error of one of the fundamental phisical laws, that this law becomes errant because of some reason. I hope i will be able to show you this article if i find it. 

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Many Christians misunderstand how science works, aik.   They mistakenly think that science promises and delivers 100% certainty.  You are one of those mistaken Christians.

 

http://ds-wordpress.haverford.edu/psych2015/projects/chapter/scientific-proof/#:~:text=One of the most popular misconceptions about science,important to understand what makes science a science%3F

https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2017/12/14/theres-no-such-thing-as-proof-in-the-scientific-world-theres-only-evidence/?sh=3f31c4b85392

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-scientific-fundamentalist/200811/common-misconceptions-about-science-i-scientific-proof

https://www.forbes.com/sites/startswithabang/2017/11/22/scientific-proof-is-a-myth/?sh=2a1363632fb1

https://greenathome.ca/theres-no-such-thing-as-scientific-proof/

https://theconversation.com/forget-what-youve-read-science-cant-prove-a-thing-578

 

Each of these linked articles correctly explains how and why there is no such thing as scientific proof.  Proofs are 100% certain.  Therefore, because science doesn't use proofs, it cannot deliver certainty.  Nor does it promise to do so.  

 

Yes, science is reliable - but not 100% reliable.  Nothing humans do is 100% reliable.  So it should come as no surprise that because science is something done by humans it cannot be any more reliable than the humans who do it. 

 

Therefore, when erring Christians like yourself claim that science is uncertain aik, you aren't scoring any points, aren't making a decisive argument and aren't saying anything that does any harm to science.  Quite the contrary.  You are confirming that science is doing exactly what it promises.  Delivering evidence and not proof.  Delivering reliability, but not certainty.  Delivering answers that can change as new evidence is gathered.  

 

 

So, please DO find that article about new evidence overturning a physical law.  By posting that for us you will be confirming that science is doing its job and is working properly.  

 

The real problem here isn't with science.  It's your failure to understand how it really works.  Understand that properly and you will see where you are making your mistake.

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

 

[sdelsolray]

This one is full of himself.

[Astreja]

4 hours ago, aik said:

In this period i found out about a new telescope james webb which has been shocking the atheists with its new discoveries. The telescope shows that the scientific knowledge concerning universal things, origins and astronomic calculations are merely relative but in most very hypothetic. So that even the scientists when they speak for sure they cannot know it crrtainly.

 

That's how science is supposed to work, Aik.  It gets closer to the truth by discovering new things.  It is never, ever 100% certain, and that is a good thing.  Far better than believing that you have 100% certainty about the truth of your god, and being completely wrong.

 

Quote

Anyway the aim is not just arguing for arguing. I want to show you my dear friends that the scientific knowledge is just a cover for your sinful choice which you had done once in the past and leaving the life itself followed satanic lies and occured in a situation like adam did.

 

You're hilarious, Aik.  You actually think Adam existed, you think sin and Satan are real, and you think that we're your friends.  Why would any of us want to become like you?

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

49 minutes ago, Astreja said:

you think that we're your friends

 

Hey Astreja,

 

I do consider him an online friend. Indoctrination had my mind trapped for years. I just realize his mind is just as trapped as mine once was. He means well but I agree he needs to do more than blatant proselytizing. 

 

@aik

Maybe you should make an earnest reply to @TABA concerning his last reply to you. We have no need of proselytizing. Your emotional pleas won't have any effect. Astreja is 100% correct that science is always changing as more information is discovered which is far better than staying true to an ideology that is 1000s of years outdated. 

 

Thanks,

 

DB

[aik]

Guys, i am not here to argue science. I have no problem with it. I have two higher educations. I am here to find one, at least one man, who sincerely is able to think out of the limits of his own understanding. 

 

Besides what we call 5 senses there is something intangible. Besides our ability to touch, to smell, to taste, to hear and to see, there is a spiritual part of life. Unseen, unheard, untouched, without a smell. If you say, that there is no spirituality, so you look at least not of healthy mind. 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

8 minutes ago, aik said:

Besides what we call 5 senses there is something intangible. Besides our ability to touch, to smell, to taste, to hear and to see, there is a spiritual part of life. Unseen, unheard, untouched, without a smell. If you say, that there is no spirituality, so you look at least not of healthy mind. 

From a practical standpoint, what is the difference between something that exists but cannot be seen, heard, touched, or demonstrated in any repeatable way, and something that does not exist?

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

10 minutes ago, aik said:

Guys, i am not here to argue science. I have no problem with it. I have two higher educations. I am here to find one, at least one man, who sincerely is able to think out of the limits of his own understanding. 

Oh well you have come to the right place. We all understood the world as a Christian once and then saw outside of our own understanding. And found that the scientific understanding of reality was much closer to reality than what we once believed. 

 

How about you?

 

DB

[Astreja]

2 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

 

Hey Astreja,

 

I do consider him an online friend. Indoctrination had my mind trapped for years. I just realize his mind is just as trapped as mine once was. He means well but I agree he needs to do more than blatant proselytizing. 

 

Understood, and thanks for the reminder that Aik probably means well but is probably stuck in his belief.  I've been trying to play nice(r), but sometimes I lose it when a preachy believer says something that's less than polite.

[aik]

18 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

From a practical standpoint, what is the difference between something that exists but cannot be seen, heard, touched, or demonstrated in any repeatable way, and something that does not exist?

If something exists, then at first, you should say that it does exist, and cannot say that it is false. At second you should point out or determine your attitude to it. And when you do it, it will have an effect. 

[Astreja]

2 minutes ago, aik said:

If something exists, then at first, you should say that it does exist, and cannot say that it is false. At second you should point out or determine your attitude to it. And when you do it, it will have an effect. 

 

No, that doesn't work.  If it can't be detected at all, there's no basis for claiming that it exists.  It's just an idea with no data to back it up.

 

That's why I'm not convinced that any gods exist.  Believers' experiences and scriptures written by humans are not empirical data, and could be nothing more than imagination and story-telling.

[aik]

19 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

Oh well you have come to the right place. We all understood the world as a Christian once and then saw outside of our own understanding. And found that the scientific understanding of reality was much closer to reality than what we once believed. 

 

How about you?

 

DB

Dear Bishop. You use the word we all, everyone etc. Not everyone here was a christian first of all. Not everyone here being a christian knew his saviour personally. And some of residrnts here really are christians but left their fathers houee full of life, holyness and joy, and decided to go after a sin, choosing the world. 

 

I was a so called christian all my life, because i was born armenian. So much that i was ready to do something bad to everyone who dared to put my christianity under doubt. But i lived a sinful life, never knew jesus personally, but of course i knew his stories. But never knew him personally. I loved sin and did not want to leave it. Jesus would become a hindrance in my life though he is good. So it was me before being saved by jesus. In armenia everyone is a christian, even if he never opened a bible. So what are we talking about?

 

May i ask you a question? What does your atheism say about attitude to your enemy? Jesus says love your enemy. 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

3 hours ago, aik said:

If something exists, then at first, you should say that it does exist, and cannot say that it is false. At second you should point out or determine your attitude to it. And when you do it, it will have an effect. 

Now, I know you pride yourself on being an honest person; and many people here consider you to be one as well.  Let's not ruin that by not putting an honest effort into answering the question I asked.  This "answer" you have given does not even attempt to answer the question I asked. 

 

I did not ask what one's response to the existence of something should be.  I asked what is the difference between something that exists but cannot be measured or demonstrated in any way and something that simply does not exist. 

 

Please answer accordingly. 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

3 hours ago, aik said:

Jesus says love your enemy.

jesus sends his enemies to hell.

[walterpthefirst]

In this period i found out about a new telescope james webb which has been shocking the atheists with its new discoveries. The telescope shows that the scientific knowledge concerning universal things, origins and astronomic calculations are merely relative but in most very hypothetic. So that even the scientists when they speak for sure they cannot know it crrtainly. 

 

 

If you have no problem with science and you do understand how it works, why did you write this, aik?

 

What was the point you were trying to make?

 

Please explain.

 

 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

9 hours ago, aik said:

May i ask you a question? What does your atheism say about attitude to your enemy? Jesus says love your enemy

 

You've been talking to me for months now. I am not athiest. I am non-thiest/agnostic. I simply have seen enough objective evidences to conclude that the Bible is not true. I do not believe in any of the worlds religions. They were all made up during a time of complete ignorance to how this earth and the universe it sits in were made. 

 

Now we have much more knowledge, have uncovered many facts that even you believe and support but are not reflected or explained in scripture. Because they had a completely different understanding of the world. 

 

I don't see what any of that has to do with my enemies. You aren't my enemy. I just called you my friend a few posts ago. What enemies are you talking about? To you the whole non-christian world is your enemy. To me it is just a world filled with people that have different beliefs based on what they were indoctrinated with in their youth. 

 

DB

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

10 hours ago, aik said:

Guys, i am not here to argue science. I have no problem with it. I have two higher educations.

 

The problem, as we have already discussed is that the sciences do not line up with what the Bible teaches on many different fronts. 

 

You say you don't have a problem with the sciences but really you do. Or atleast your beliefs do. They are at odds with one another. We have brought up many different obstacles that the sciences bring up concerning the legitimacy and proof of existence of your God which you have been unable to adequately address. And instead are focusing on emotional pleas for us to accept a God that you can't objectively show us exists. 

 

DB

[aik]

5 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

You've been talking to me for months now. I am not athiest. I am non-thiest/agnostic. I simply have seen enough objective evidences to conclude that the Bible is not true. I do not believe in any of the worlds religions. They were all made up during a time of complete ignorance to how this earth and the universe it sits in were made. 

You are right, I am sorry, you are an agnostic.

 

5 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

I don't see what any of that has to do with my enemies. You aren't my enemy. I just called you my friend a few posts ago. What enemies are you talking about? To you the whole non-christian world is your enemy. To me it is just a world filled with people that have different beliefs based on what they were indoctrinated with in their youth. 

You misunderstood my point. I point on a common problem. How does the godless world solve that problem? Jesus teaches to love our enemies, but what the world offers? 

 

No, there is not a single person in this world which is my enemy. But in this passage Jesus calls enemy to anyone who harms you, persecutes, kills or do some damage to you. There is no need to imply such an attitude to non-christians to me. How can I hate a man for whom my Saviour suffered and died? 

[aik]

19 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Now, I know you pride yourself on being an honest person; and many people here consider you to be one as well.  Let's not ruin that by not putting an honest effort into answering the question I asked.  This "answer" you have given does not even attempt to answer the question I asked. 

 

I did not ask what one's response to the existence of something should be.  I asked what is the difference between something that exists but cannot be measured or demonstrated in any way and something that simply does not exist. 

 

Please answer accordingly. 

The stamp i earned here was not "the honest man". Very short after an authentic christian believer i got "delusional". This is what i am among God haters. I accept it in the name of Jesus. 

 

The difference is that the first exists, even if you are unable to measure it. 

 

If it does exist, no matter you can measure it or not, you should give account. 

 

But the Bible says if the faith has not deeds then the faith is dead and such a faith is unable to save a men. And Jesus says that the holy spifit cannot be seen, but one can know his presence just like of a wind blowing. Therefore the unseen can be demonstrated through deeds, but the core content stays unmeasured. I mean that we cannot say how many kilograms of love one needs to bless his neighbour when this one stills a part of your plot. 

 

We can see it as follows also. If we put a seed into a soil and cover it, it becomes unseen, until it rises and grows and we see it. You can say that we are able to tak out a seed and touch it. Yes, it was just an example, analogy. In case of spiritual things we cannot just dig and take it out, we can only hope to see the effect. 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

On 1/28/2023 at 10:32 AM, DarkBishop said:

Good morning @aik,

 

I'll have to catch up on the replies today but I owe you a reply and need to make one before it gets to late. 

 

I don't doubt that you are Christian. To me, you have proven that here in the forums just by the demeanor of your messages and your fervent adherence to your faith. I expected you to point that out as evidence but maybe to do so would have seemed vain to you....? In the scripture Jesus tells us what to look for in:

 

Mathew 7

15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

 

In this Jesus is talking about false prophets but this can also be applied to a faithful Christian. Also reflected in the book of James.

 

James 2

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

 

Here we see some key wording in the bible. It shows us that there is something expected of the faithful. Just as Jesus said in Mathew 7, a good tree will bear good fruit. Also a Christian will work the works of Christ. It is a necessity to work the work of Christ to retain your salvation. Or atleast that is what I see here. It even asks the question can faith alone save you? The answer is no. This gets confusing to some Christians because of what is said in ephesians chapter 2. Especially to the Baptist. 

 

Ephesians 2.

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

Here we see that it is said that salvation is a gift and not a gift obtained by works. Which is true biblically. But notice that it also says that ye are saved through faith. While biblically no one can be saved by their works alone and they must go through faith in Christ to receive the gift of salvation. There is work to be done after salvation and faith. And if those works aren't there. Faith is dead. And if faith is dead without works, salvation is lost. Biblically it is freely given but must be maintained afterward. 

 

Also in ephesians we get a pretty good example of the fruits of a Christian. Which I believe you reflect Aik.

 

Ephesian 4

21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:

22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.

26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:

27 Neither give place to the devil.

28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.

29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.

30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:

32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

 

Notice that there is to be an obvious change in a Christian. His demeanor changes. The man that was once a thief will now work honestly to aide those in need. Laying down his wrath, anger, and evil speaking. To be kind, tender hearted, and forgiving. 

 

All of this I believe you reflect. And you should be proud of that. Biblically you reflect the actions and works of a Christian. 

 

But is that everything that Christians as a collective are supposed to be able to do?

 

While I will admit that this is the very evidence that you could give us. It only reflects a change in mentality that comes with Indoctrination. This same type of change could be seen in someone who decides to start practicing Buddhism. Some of the kindest people I've known have been Hindu. In my youth I was interested in Wicca. I met some people during this time who had a deep and profound respect and love for nature. This was core to their beliefs. Anyone can have a change in consciousness and become a better person. One of the mottos of my fraternity is: "Taking good men and making them better". There is great wisdom in the lectures of masonry that teach us to be better people. To consider others and what they may be going through before jumping to conclusions. Not to let religious differences affect how we treat one another. 

 

The only difference between the works of these examples and the example you have shown in your life is faith in Christ. 

 

Let's go over what it says in Hebrews 11 about faith being evidence. 

 

1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.

 

I thought about posting the whole chapter because after verse two it goes into giving the faithful examples of Jewish elders in the bible. Abel, noah, Abraham, Enoch, Moses, and several others. And I would urge anyone reading this post to read the whole chapter. It just seems unnecessary to post the whole chapter.

 

In the rest of the chapter they present the experiences of the elders as fact. They assumed that all of these events happened. Not by faith but because it was written. They thought that these people existed and that they did all these things through their faith because these characters were written into the Bible. They felt that these were factual events that resulted from faith. 

 

In reality none of these things happened. Or at the very least they have not been able to be verified through archeology or any other method of obtaining objective proof of it happening. Abel is the son of Adam and eve who were characters in the mythological story of creation. Our discoveries do not reflect a creation anything like what is depicted in the bible. Which you and I covered in another thread awhile back. 

 

There is a mountain of verifiable evidence that the flood of Noah never happened. When I say the flood of Noah never happened. I'm talking about a world wide flood as depicted in Genesis. There is proof of smaller localized and coastal flooding. But though geologist have searched the world for evidence of a world wide flood. That evidence just isn't there.

 

There is very little proof that Moses ever existed or that the exodus ever happened. Though initially archeologists set out using the bible as a guide to find evidence of the exodus. That evidence has eluded their grasp.

 

There is no verifiable proof of Abraham. Oh I'm sure that there were some actual people with some of these names that inspired the myths and legends that came to be. But we can go through each example that is given in Hebrews 11 and conclude that there is no sufficient evidence to prove that any of those things happened. Had they known during that time that these events couldn't be proven I doubt that Hebrews 11 would ever have been written. They wrote about them as factual examples of the faith of others who (unknowingly to the writer) probably never existed. 

 

Had archeologists and scientist been able to prove that these people and events existed. This chapter would have been fairly good evidence for the case of the biblical God. However, that proof has never been found. Therefore, this chapter has only become more fuel for the argument against the bible and its God. 

 

But is that the only evidence that could be presented? You have presented your mothers miraculous recovery from cancer as proof. And I would also like to say that I'm glad your mother did recover and I hope she leads a full and happy life. Whether it was the result of treatment or a miraculous happening, you have more time with her. But speaking of miracles. I would attest that miracles could in fact be proof if those miracles were. 

 

1. Exclusive to Christians 

And

2. Reflected what Jesus prophesied would happen after him. 

 

Concerning the 1st point. Miracles like your mothers are not exclusive to Christianity but can be claimed by people of different faiths all over the world. 

 

More interestingly, concerning this topic, Jesus gave clear indication that miracles in his name would continue even after he was gone. 

 

Let's go back to

 

Mathew 7

 

7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?

10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?

11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

 

Jesus promised that through faithful prayer that God would answer in kind. You have attested in this thread that God doesn't answer all prayers. And I would tend to agree that there are prayers and circumstances where an all knowing God would not answer a prayer. But the problem lies in the fact that God is more in the business of not answering prayers than he is in answering them. Or atleast that is what appears to be the case.

 

 @TheRedneckProfessor brought up the story of a young girl who was abducted, raped, and killed. She and her parents were Christian. And I know having been a Christian that her parents, her whole family, and probably their whole Christian community prayed for her safe return. This is one prayer that a Loving Christian God would answer if he were real. And this is just one instance. There are children starving and being abused daily. Many of them probably crying to God for help with no answer. Why? 

 

Therefore this evidence provided by Jesus also fails to provide an adequate defense for objective proof of the bible's God. 

 

What else did Jesus say?

 

John 14

11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

 

Verse 12 is the key verse here. He that believes in Jesus will not only do the works that Jesus did. But will be able to do greater works. 

 

It doesn't say that only his apostles would be able to do this. But he that believes on Jesus. That would include any and all Christians. 

 

Let's do a quick review of some of the works of Jesus. 

 

Healed the sick, blind, lame, and even cured leprosy.

 

Fed thousands of people with a loaf of bread and a few fish. Miraculously multiplied it until everyone had their fill.

 

Walked on open water

 

Raised Lazarus from the dead

 

Was resurrected himself and ascended to heaven. 

 

Jesus said that those people that believed on him would not only be able to do all of that, but greater works than he did. 

 

If this had been true and actually happened in today's time. It would be good objective evidence that what the Bible says is true. But alas, once again this is not the case. Half the world is Christian. Hunger should be gone from all the Christians multiplying food for the hungry. Sicknesses should be miraculously cured daily. Cancer? Aids? Hepatitis? Covid 19? No problem. Go to the nearest Christian. Let them lay hands on you, Anointing you with oil, and you'll be cured. But that doesn't really happen does it? According to Jesus the world should be seeing these types of miracles coming from Christendom that he performed in his life. Yet again, that is not what happened or is happening today. Even though Jesus himself said that it would happen.

 

Now we can get into the evidences of the spirit. Or fruits of the spirit. Remember we've already pointed out that a Christian is known by their fruits. That is their evidence of Christianity. Likewise the Holy Spirit has fruits. 

 

Galatians 5

19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

 

You have talked about the Holy spirit working in your life. And I assume that this is what your talking about. Leaving the lusts of the flesh behind and walking in the spirit. But again. That is also an indication of religious indoctrination which we have already covered a few times in our conversations. So there needs to be more. Thats OK. Because biblically the Holy spirit does offer more. 

 

1 corinthians 12

4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

 

The gifts of the spirit. Rnp can expound more on these. His church was very big on the gifts of the spirit. 

 

Prophesy

Tongues

Interpretation of tongues

Healing

Wisdom

Miracles

Knowledge

Discerning of spirits 

 

While all these gifts may be claimed by the church....... they aren't really evident are they Aik? I mean sure.... wisdom, knowledge, and maybe even discerning of spirits. I mean I'm not even religious and I can usually read people pretty well. But I'm not sure thats the type of spiritual discerning it is talking about. Most the time, if you do hear a supposed prophesy, it ends up not coming to fruition. If it does its usually some vague prophecy that is proclaimed to be a fulfillment according to some persons interpretation. But there is really no extraordinary prophecies that have come true which we can verify. Kind of like the return of Jesus. Almost 2000 years and counting. Miracles? Nope not really, already covered that. Not to the extent that Jesus said it would be anyway. 

 

So you see Aik. The Bible gave many examples of objective evidence that you as a Christian "should" be able to show us heathens. But the only thing your faith has given you to show us, is the subjective evidence reflected in your personal Christian Indoctrination and the change in your behavior. While I agree that the Bible says that this is the evidence of a Christian. The Bible and Jesus himself also said there should be more evidence. There should be objective evidence. The Bible gives many examples of things we should be able to verify and we weren't able to. It gives many examples of things Christians should be capable of but they aren't capable of.

 

The Bible fails at every turn to prove itself true. The biblical God is powerless to prove his own existence. And that isn't a God worth worshipping in my opinion.

 

Thank you

 

Dark Bishop 

 

Ps. Please excuse any typos for now. I have spent to much time on this and have to actually work now. I'll fix them later. 

 

 

 

@aik

 

I'd like to say that I'm glad your feeling better and are able to make replies again. You had said you would reply to my above post before getting sick. No worries, just when you get time. Wanted to remind ya since its been a few weeks. 

 

DB

[◊ Weezer ◊]

3 hours ago, aik said:

The stamp i earned here was not "the honest man". Very short after an authentic christian believer i got "delusional". This is what i am among God haters. I accept it in the name of Jesus. The difference is that the first exists, even if you are unable to measure it. 

 

aik, perhaps delusional was not the best choice of words.  I do believe you are an honest man.  I believe you really belive what you are are saying about your beliefs.  But I also believe your beliefs about Christianity and Jesus are so strong that it creates a "blind spot" in the subjects we are discussing on this forum.  You believe we are not being rational and are concerned for our souls, and we believe you are not being rational. So where to go from here?   Best wishes!