Peanut Gallery for "What Is Evidence / How Do We Know What Is Real?"

[Rev R]

15 hours ago, Shinzon said:

Piggybacking off of that point(in case by some chance a christian reads this)....even if it were true that there was a guy name Jesus who did feed a bunch of people and that story snowballed into what because of he gospels....any attempt to claim factual accuracy based off reporting becomes a sharpshooter fallacy.  This is  cause even if there is a grain of truth there....it doesn't prove the truth of any sort of divinity claims or any other rlated parts of the text..  It just shows that some sort of narrative was told for a philosophical reason.

Not just that, but even a more mundane version of a miraculous bread and fish buffet should have spread like any interesting news story of the day.  

[TABA]

Our christian visitor @aik is not a fan of what he calls religion.  He tends to dismiss as "religion" the aspects of christianity that trouble and burden people.  Just open your heart to Jesus and you’ll be fine.  
 

But what does aik tell a christian who is terrified of going to Hell?  And countless believers over the millennia have been tormented by such fears.  The Bible isn’t clear at all whether humans even GO to Hell!  Maybe it’s just for Satan and his angels, as many christians believe.  And if a human CAN go there, what does it take?  Committing the unforgivable sin?  Or not feeding the hungry and clothing the naked?  How much feeding and clothing is enough?  Do you have to sell ALL you have to fund the feeding and clothing? 

 

And is any level of feeding and clothing enough if you don’t have faith?  How much faith is enough?  If you pick up a snake and get bitten, are you going to hell because your faith is insufficient?

 

These are real questions that have helped splinter christianity into countless denominations.  All of these possibilities are in scripture, in black-and-white, or even in red.  The Bible is treated by nearly all christians as god's instruction book to mankind.  Many - not all - believe the Bible is the ONLY way god communicates with people today.

 

So what would aik say to the believer tormented by fear of Hell?  Just ignore the scripture and trust in Jesus?  

[Edgarcito]

6 hours ago, freshstart said:

Yes and the problem is we, as humans, have a communal understanding and sometimes a communal experience when it comes to emotions, even though there is no way to scientifically prove that any emotion actually "exists." Emotions are construct, they are not matter or energy or anything we can measure, except by a person's perceived experience. Yet we all tend to agree that love, hate, etc are "real." People are rarely asked to prove that they love whatever it is they love. We just take that personal experience at face value (most of the time). It is the perception, interpretation, and source of those emotions that is debatable.

I, for example, cannot fathom the love of sports. To me it is just a bunch of people on a field or court (or whatever) batting, kicking, hitting or throwing a ball around. How and why is it that ball games generate what seems to be a spiritual experience for certain fans? Why do fans experience shared communal emotions over a game?

Honestly we could ask this about any emotion toward anything and probably come up with an evolutionary answer. And because a belief in a higher power is such a common and communal human experience, there is likely an evolutionary answer for that too.

Then the question is please ma'am, do these constructs predestine us?

[midniterider]

Oh I misread. Disregard.

[Rev R]

1 hour ago, Edgarcito said:

Then the question is please ma'am, do these constructs predestine us?

predestine us for what exactly, Ed?

[midniterider]

4 hours ago, TABA said:

Our christian visitor @aik is not a fan of what he calls religion.  He tends to dismiss as "religion" the aspects of christianity that trouble and burden people.  Just open your heart to Jesus and you’ll be fine.  
 

But what does aik tell a christian who is terrified of going to Hell?  And countless believers over the millennia have been tormented by such fears.  The Bible isn’t clear at all whether humans even GO to Hell!  Maybe it’s just for Satan and his angels, as many christians believe.  And if a human CAN go there, what does it take?  Committing the unforgivable sin?  Or not feeding the hungry and clothing the naked?  How much feeding and clothing is enough?  Do you have to sell ALL you have to fund the feeding and clothing? 

 

And is any level of feeding and clothing enough if you don’t have faith?  How much faith is enough?  If you pick up a snake and get bitten, are you going to hell because your faith is insufficient?

 

These are real questions that have helped splinter christianity into countless denominations.  All of these possibilities are in scripture, in black-and-white, or even in red.  The Bible is treated by nearly all christians as god's instruction book to mankind.  Many - not all - believe the Bible is the ONLY way god communicates with people today.

 

So what would aik say to the believer tormented by fear of Hell?  Just ignore the scripture and trust in Jesus?  

 

How often do you have to give Jesus an imaginary hug to maintain your reservation in heaven? 

 

 

[Edgarcito]

6 minutes ago, Rev R said:

predestine us for what exactly, Ed?

Was thinking if our behavior is a function of a construct, our awareness of that would lend itself to free will.  For those things unexplainable, writing it off to construct doesn’t seem just given everything else has objective evidence.  So even if you derive the explanation “construct”, free will still seems the appropriate understanding.  Long time since you’ve been here Rev.  I changed from END3 back in the old days to pinche Edgarcito.  Glad you came back to visit.

[Rev R]

2 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

Was thinking if our behavior is a function of a construct, our awareness of that would lend itself to free will.  For those things unexplainable, writing it off to construct doesn’t seem just given everything else has objective evidence.  So even if you derive the explanation “construct”, free will still seems the appropriate understanding.  Long time since you’ve been here Rev.  I changed from END3 back in the old days to pinche Edgarcito.  Glad you came back to visit.

It was pretty easy to figure out. A Christian named Ed from Texas who mostly gets along with everyone and likes to use the word "grace" a lot. Could only be one person. I'm actually pleased to see you still here.

Sounds like it could be a fun topic to explore, not sure if this particular thread is the right place.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

2 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

Was thinking if our behavior is a function of a construct, our awareness of that would lend itself to free will.  For those things unexplainable, writing it off to construct doesn’t seem just given everything else has objective evidence.  So even if you derive the explanation “construct”, free will still seems the appropriate understanding.  Long time since you’ve been here Rev.  I changed from END3 back in the old days to pinche Edgarcito.  Glad you came back to visit.

So your ready to start that thread back up again ed?

[Edgarcito]

3 minutes ago, Rev R said:

It was pretty easy to figure out. A Christian named Ed from Texas who mostly gets along with everyone and likes to use the word "grace" a lot. Could only be one person. I'm actually pleased to see you still here.

Sounds like it could be a fun topic to explore, not sure if this particular thread is the right place.

Lol +1

[walterpthefirst]

3 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

Was thinking if our behavior is a function of a construct, our awareness of that would lend itself to free will.  For those things unexplainable, writing it off to construct doesn’t seem just given everything else has objective evidence.  So even if you derive the explanation “construct”, free will still seems the appropriate understanding.  Long time since you’ve been here Rev.  I changed from END3 back in the old days to pinche Edgarcito.  Glad you came back to visit.

 

Actually, the opposite would be true, Ed.

 

Freshstart said that emotions are constructs and you wondered if these constructs predestine us.

 

To be predestined to do something means that the outcome of your choice has already been decided FOR you.

 

Not BY you.

 

So, even if you are aware that you are predestined, you couldn't change that outcome by choosing to do so.

 

If you could change the outcome by your free will, then you are not predestined.

 

It's one or the other.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

17 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

Actually, the opposite would be true, Ed.

 

Freshstart said that emotions are constructs and you wondered if these constructs predestine us.

 

To be predestined to do something means that the outcome of your choice has already been decided FOR you.

 

Not BY you.

 

So, even if you are aware that you are predestined, you couldn't change that outcome by choosing to do so.

 

If you could change the outcome by your free will, then you are not predestined.

 

It's one or the other.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Oh yeah. I forgot that Ed wants to have a marriage ceremony for free will and predestination. 

[Edgarcito]

14 hours ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

Actually, the opposite would be true, Ed.

 

Freshstart said that emotions are constructs and you wondered if these constructs predestine us.

 

To be predestined to do something means that the outcome of your choice has already been decided FOR you.

 

Not BY you.

 

So, even if you are aware that you are predestined, you couldn't change that outcome by choosing to do so.

 

If you could change the outcome by your free will, then you are not predestined.

 

It's one or the other.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think it's an indolent explanation.  In this case, if I'm aware that my attributes give rise to certain qualities, then the awareness dictates cause.  Which we don't really know if "construct" is a cause.  And if we did, we certainly would have the power to change it....

[walterpthefirst]

35 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

I think it's an indolent explanation.  In this case, if I'm aware that my attributes give rise to certain qualities, then the awareness dictates cause.  Which we don't really know if "construct" is a cause.  And if we did, we certainly would have the power to change it....

 

Predestination isn't the same as predisposition, Ed.

 

I'm aware that I'm predisposed to be lazy about certain things.  That awareness, along with free will allows me to change myself and become less lazy.

 

But if I am predestined to be lazy, then no amount of awareness on my part will be of any use.

 

That's because all of the decisions in my life have been made for me before I was born and I cannot choose to undo any of them.

 

If I am under predestination I have no free will.  My destiny has been pre-decided for me.  I am simply carrying out pre-decided actions, unaware that I am doing so.

 

If I have free will then I am not predestined.  My destiny is my own to choose.  I am freely choosing my actions, aware that I am doing so.

 

 

 

 

[Edgarcito]

12 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

Predestination isn't the same as predisposition, Ed.

 

I'm aware that I'm predisposed to be lazy about certain things.  That awareness, along with free will allows me to change myself and become less lazy.

 

But if I am predestined to be lazy, then no amount of awareness on my part will be of any use.

 

That's because all of the decisions in my life have been made for me before I was born and I cannot choose to undo any of them.

 

If I am under predestination I have no free will.  My destiny has been pre-decided for me.  I am simply carrying out pre-decided actions, unaware that I am doing so.

 

If I have free will then I am not predestined.  My destiny is my own to choose.  I am freely choosing my actions, aware that I am doing so.

 

 

 

 

Right.  Her explanation seemed to place the unexplainable under the cause "construct".  I don't believe it as was asking that she comment.  Thanks.

[walterpthefirst]

10 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Right.  Her explanation seemed to place the unexplainable under the cause "construct".  I don't believe it as was asking that she comment.  Thanks.

 

No problem, Ed.

 

But just to be sure it might be an idea to ask Freshstart exactly what she meant.

 

She wrote...  Emotions are construct, they are not matter or energy or anything we can measure, except by a person's perceived experience. 

 

Which is open to different interpretations.

 

She might have meant that emotions are constructs that we make for ourselves, with our knowledge and input.

 

Or she might have meant that emotions are constructed for us, without our knowledge and input.

 

The former would agree with free will.

 

But the latter would agree with predestination.

 

It might be wise to check.

[TABA]

On 12/7/2022 at 10:29 AM, TABA said:

Our christian visitor @aik is not a fan of what he calls religion.  He tends to dismiss as "religion" the aspects of christianity that trouble and burden people.  Just open your heart to Jesus and you’ll be fine.  
 

But what does aik tell a christian who is terrified of going to Hell?  And countless believers over the millennia have been tormented by such fears.  The Bible isn’t clear at all whether humans even GO to Hell!  Maybe it’s just for Satan and his angels, as many christians believe.  And if a human CAN go there, what does it take?  Committing the unforgivable sin?  Or not feeding the hungry and clothing the naked?  How much feeding and clothing is enough?  Do you have to sell ALL you have to fund the feeding and clothing? 

 

And is any level of feeding and clothing enough if you don’t have faith?  How much faith is enough?  If you pick up a snake and get bitten, are you going to hell because your faith is insufficient?

 

These are real questions that have helped splinter christianity into countless denominations.  All of these possibilities are in scripture, in black-and-white, or even in red.  The Bible is treated by nearly all christians as god's instruction book to mankind.  Many - not all - believe the Bible is the ONLY way god communicates with people today.

 

So what would aik say to the believer tormented by fear of Hell?  Just ignore the scripture and trust in Jesus?  

I’m bumping this post of mine to see if @aikhas any response to make.  He may have overlooked it in the busy days of early last week. Seems like a long time ago now…

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

8 hours ago, TABA said:

I’m bumping this post of mine to see if @aikhas any response to make.  He may have overlooked it in the busy days of early last week. Seems like a long time ago now…

I'm also interested in what Aik would have to say to a Christian who was still in fear of Hell. He has said that his church believes that you can lose salvation. So that fear should not be foreign to him or his church brothers and sisters. 

 

DB

[freshstart]

On 12/8/2022 at 10:33 AM, walterpthefirst said:

But just to be sure it might be an idea to ask Freshstart exactly what she meant.

 

She wrote...  Emotions are construct, they are not matter or energy or anything we can measure, except by a person's perceived experience. 

 

Which is open to different interpretations.

 

She might have meant that emotions are constructs that we make for ourselves, with our knowledge and input.

 

Or she might have meant that emotions are constructed for us, without our knowledge and input.

 

The former would agree with free will.

 

But the latter would agree with predestination.

 

The conversation (as I recall) was about how Christians will often point to emotions or emotional experiences as reliable "proof" of what they believe. when in fact emotions are just a construct, a perception. Emotions are not "real" in the sense that they cannot be measured or validated with any scientific accuracy. Yet we all experience emotions and,  in fact, our entire quality of life is based upon something we cannot measure. But the Christian takes it a step further and  attributes at least some of their emotions to god, as if their emotions should carry more weight than anyone elses.

But I'm not sure how this has anything to do with predestination versus free will or how. Do we somehow choose our emotions? 

[aik]

Hello to everyone my dear friends. I am here with you. I pray for you. Everyone of you is valuable to our God even knowing that you deny Him now, but He knowing that shed His own blood for you and me. Praised be Jesus Christ.

 

I have got my smartphone damaged. I broke its monitor. Sometimes I was writing to you from my phone. At my work I have no chance to type here, but I think on Friday I will have it. 

Another point is that I am waiting for @Hierophant's answer in our one-to-one conversation. 

 

As well I wish to know more about some of you, what happened to you, why you lost your faith, what destroyed your relationships with Jesus. I hope to be useful in such an important deal. TABA once said to me that it is more important the quality of conversation than a quickly made respond. I agree with it.

 

See you soon again. 

[aik]

On 12/13/2022 at 11:35 PM, DarkBishop said:

I'm also interested in what Aik would have to say to a Christian who was still in fear of Hell. He has said that his church believes that you can lose salvation. So that fear should not be foreign to him or his church brothers and sisters. 

 

DB

A hell is terrible for those who do not know what is Jesus Christ and who he is. But David says 'Even your hand is with me when  I am in hell'. 

But if a man does not have fear of hell it means that either he does not believe anyway it exists, or he is saved from hell. Non-believing does not cancel it. Yesterday my friend was telling me how his son could enter into water in a river and move deeper and deeper without any fear, and the son is only 2, and he cannot swim. I think everyone of us who has a child he knows that a kid also has no fear of many things that we have and we should have it! to be safe and secure. But having fear for safety and to be a paranoic are different things i think. We should discern such things. 

 

The Bible tells us that a christian believer can lose his salvation if he stops to believe and returns to sins. When a congregation believes that a salvation cannot be lost I thinks it is a word-play game, which brings us to a topic of predestination and free will. So it not exactly that one cannot lose his salvation but if he has lost it anyway so he was predestined to it. But the Bible says that God wants repentance of everyone in the world. It is another very interesting topic, I saw some of your posts here about predestination, and I have also what to say to you about your free will and your choice that you do everyday in your life. 

 

We will have this course maybe. One-to-one maybe. 

 

Best wishes and regards Dear Bishop. 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

1 hour ago, aik said:

 

As well I wish to know more about some of you, what happened to you, why you lost your faith, what destroyed your relationships with Jesus.

 

 

You can read the srory of my spiritual life, how it came to me, and what destroyed it, in The TESTIMONIAL forum of this website.  It is called "Personal story:  TRUTH, A GRADUAL AWAKENING".  Some of the details are different, but the overall story is the same for many of us.

[aik]

1 hour ago, Weezer said:

 

You can read the srory of my spiritual life, how it came to me, and what destroyed it, in The TESTIMONIAL forum of this website.  It is called "Personal story:  TRUTH, A GRADUAL AWAKENING".  Some of the details are different, but the overall story is the same for many of us.

thank you. i will read it

[TABA]

8 hours ago, aik said:

As well I wish to know more about some of you, what happened to you, why you lost your faith, what destroyed your relationships with Jesus. I hope to be useful in such an important deal. TABA once said to me that it is more important the quality of conversation than a quickly made respond. I agree with it.

 

See you soon again. 

Hello again, aik!  I thought maybe you had decided to shake the dust of this place from your feet, and I am glad you have not done so.  It is good for us to have a christian here to disagree with!

 

Things are a bit busy right now, but soon I hope to start a topic explaining why I now reject christianity after many years as a believer.  Stay tuned…

[midniterider]

Hell is an imaginary place. Believing it is real does not make it real.