Those Who Reject the Son Reject Also the Father

[TheRedneckProfessor]

9 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

I don't know John.  I don't know that anyone knows.  I personally see God as an absolute.  Humanity somehow does not have the capability to completely share the understanding.  In that, you have chosen to view God as an evil tyrant rather than love.

 

We aren't going to agree J.  I will not drink that water.  

   

So, you're going with the "we don't know god's higher purpose" and "he's all mysterious and shit" defense, then.  But I thought you wanted to speculate.  Recycling the same tired argument you've used in the last 17 threads isn't speculating.  

 

See what I mean @walterpthefirst?

[TheRedneckProfessor]

14 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

In that, you have chosen to view God as an evil tyrant rather than love.

This is false.  I do not choose to see god as an evil tyrant.  That's the way his character is written in the book.  Nobody chooses to see Voldemort as the bad guy; he just is the bad guy.  If god really was love, he'd be presented that way.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

6 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Tell me what you'd like to see happen here John.   You'd like me to agree with you?  You are asking me to give up all that I believe is absolutely right on a level that I don't fully comprehend and can only experience it when it happens.  Don't ask me to do that.  I don't fucking like you that much.  Fix your own shit on your own end.  

 

Whatever "it" is, it's damn sure not an evil tyrant.  You do you.

I'm not asking you to do anything,  Ed.  You said you wanted to speculate.  I'm just trying to help.

[Edgarcito]

5 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

So, you're going with the "we don't know god's higher purpose" and "he's all mysterious and shit" defense, then.  But I thought you wanted to speculate.  Recycling the same tired argument you've used in the last 17 threads isn't speculating.  

 

See what I mean @walterpthefirst?

You'd like to go back to free will and predestination again?

[TheRedneckProfessor]

1 minute ago, Edgarcito said:

You'd like to go back to free will and predestination again?

No.  I'd like for you to put forth some effort here and try to think of one good reason why there needs to be a wage for Sin in the first place and why god chose Death to be that wage.  

[Edgarcito]

3 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

This is false.  I do not choose to see god as an evil tyrant.  That's the way his character is written in the book.  Nobody chooses to see Voldemort as the bad guy; he just is the bad guy.  If god really was love, he'd be presented that way.

He IS specifically presented in that way, THE WAY, as a human so that we might have a connection to the absolute.  You thinking that was just a coincidence to the story, that the council made sure it agreed?

[Edgarcito]

4 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

I'm not asking you to do anything,  Ed.  You said you wanted to speculate.  I'm just trying to help.

Help me what John.

[Edgarcito]

1 minute ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

No.  I'd like for you to put forth some effort here and try to think of one good reason why there needs to be a wage for Sin in the first place and why god chose Death to be that wage.  

I don't know John, ask the little girl hanging naked from the rope....

[TheRedneckProfessor]

3 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Help me what John.

Help you speculate, Ed.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

5 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

He IS specifically presented in that way, THE WAY, as a human so that we might have a connection to the absolute.  You thinking that was just a coincidence to the story, that the council made sure it agreed?

No.  It seems more like an after-thought, or a Plan B, if you take the bible as a whole.

[walterpthefirst]

14 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

You'd like to go back to free will and predestination again?

 

No, I think the Prof is asking you to disengage your emotions from this.

 

You will not drink the water of what the bible actually says about god because your emotions prevent you from doing so.

 

You first believed for emotional (un)reasons.

 

You continue to believe for emotional (un) reasons.

 

And you want to continue believing for emotional (un) reasons.

 

Your emotions cause you to filter out god's cruelty from scripture.

 

Your emotions cause you to see god as love, but only through rose-tinted glasses.

 

 

The proof that you are enslaved by your emotions is your refusal to drink.

 

So, can you prove that you are not enslaved like this and drink - seeing god as he really is in scripture?

 

[Edgarcito]

1 minute ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

No, I think the Prof is asking you to disengage your emotions from this.

 

You will not drink the water of what the bible actually says about god because your emotions prevent you from doing so.

 

You first believed for emotional (un)reasons.

 

You continue to believe for emotional (un) reasons.

 

And you want to continue believing for emotional (un) reasons.

 

Your emotions cause you to filter out god's cruelty from scripture.

 

Your emotions cause you to see god as love, but only through rose-tinted glasses.

 

 

The proof that you are enslaved by your emotions is your refusal to drink.

 

So, can you prove that you are not enslaved like this and drink - seeing god as he really is in scripture?

 

But as an old friend said on this very site, and left for this very reason, a mod actually, that in doing what you are suggesting, you are ignoring roughly half of our experience as humans.  

 

What is that resonance we experience that makes us larger and more whole and unafraid, and thankful, and grace-filled.  What is that.  Each of you can't explain it on the other half you choose to reside.  "It's the god particle"...

 

I resonate in Christianity. I don't in science, other than creating something that will help others.  

 

Do you understand that?  Do you John?  

[Edgarcito]

It is a substitution.  It's a collective substitution of death for life.  There's your answer you were searching for....

[Edgarcito]

I'm not the one that needs to quit my emotions.  Just the opposite.  Several here need to go back and find that resonance and re-recognize that's life.....and then wallow in it instead of falling further behind.  Myself included.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

So, you're not going to speculate on why there needs to be a wage for Sin, Ed? Or why that wage has to be death?  You'd rather pitch a fit about resonance.

 

Okay...

[walterpthefirst]

1 hour ago, Edgarcito said:

But as an old friend said on this very site, and left for this very reason, a mod actually, that in doing what you are suggesting, you are ignoring roughly half of our experience as humans.  

 

What is that resonance we experience that makes us larger and more whole and unafraid, and thankful, and grace-filled.  What is that.  Each of you can't explain it on the other half you choose to reside.  "It's the god particle"...

 

I resonate in Christianity. I don't in science, other than creating something that will help others.  

 

Do you understand that?  Do you John?  

 

Yes, I do.  You emotionally resonate.

 

And Muslims resonate with Islam, doing and feeling exactly what you do.  And so do Jews with their faith.  Hindus with theirs. Sikhs, Mormons, etc. etc.  And their emotionally-driven faiths cause them to believe that their emotions lead them to the truth too.  But in reality all a believer's emotionally-driven faith is doing is telling them what they want to hear.  Not what is actually there.

 

Emotions do not lead to truth. 

 

If they did then why are there so many different religions, different interpretations of the same holy books, different denominations, sects, cults, etc. If emotions lead to truth then everyone should agree, right?  But they don't.  And that is because emotions and emotional resonances do not lead to truth.

 

And here we come to the Prof's point about projection. If someone is emotionally invested in a belief then their emotions will cause them to project what they want to see and hear about "their" god and "their" holy book.  Not what's actually there.  

 

Your refusal to drink is your refusal to look at what is actually in the bible.  Instead you prefer to project your emotions onto the god described there.  Just as the Prof described.

 

You resonate with Christianity because (surprise, surprise) your emotions have created a closed loop, they tell you what you want to see and hear in the bible - and ta daa!  That's exactly what you see.  Your emotions are not showing you the truth of what's actually written there.

 

To really discover that you have to disengage your emotions, put aside what you want and take off the rose-tinted faith glasses.

 

You want to drink?

 

 

 

[walterpthefirst]

I tried to broach the issue of emotions NOT leading to universal truths here, Ed.

 

When I cited this science paper.

 

https://www.maths.ed.ac.uk/~v1ranick/papers/wigner.pdf     THE UNREASONABLE EFFECTIVENESS OF MATHEMATICS IN THE NATURAL SCIENCES

 

Scientists do NOT use their emotions to discover universal truths about reality.

 

That's how Muslims, Jews, Mormons, Sikhs and Christians, who also happen to be scientists, all agree about universal physical truths, even if they can't agree about religious matters.

 

They all agree about the atomic weight of hydrogen, the frequency of UV light and the place of gallium on the periodic table.

 

That's because they put their emotions aside and see what's in the natural world clearly.

 

They see what is actually there.

 

Emotions cannot do that.

 

 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

5 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

Tell me what you'd like to see happen here John.   You'd like me to agree with you?  You are asking me to give up all that I believe is absolutely right on a level that I don't fully comprehend and can only experience it when it happens.  Don't ask me to do that.  I don't fucking like you that much.  Fix your own shit on your own end.  

 

Whatever "it" is, it's damn sure not an evil tyrant.  You do you.

I don't believe that you believe it Ed. You only give lip service to the Christian God. You don't adhere to Christian customs, traditions, or practices. And biblically you are destined for the same eternal pit of torture that we are headed to. 

 

Things you do believe in are not biblical. For all do intents and purposes you are at the best an agnostic that believes that if there is a God that that God is the Christian God. 

 

At that point why believe? Your no better off for doing it. You don't believe by example, knowledge, or practice. 

 

The red letters themselves say that that type of Christian will be spat out of Gods mouth. 

 

You really need to do some self reflection. I will agree that you believe in something. Maybe even a God. But whatever God that is, is definitely not the Christian God. And if it is. You slap him in the face everytime you call someone a "Little Bitch". 

 

I personally think you would be happier just being agnostic. Believeing your gonna see your dad, Jesus, and everyone else in whatever afterlife there might be. But that is just my opinion. The human mind is super complicated and I'm no psychiatrist. 

 

But I was Christian, and I was a preacher. And you are not what I would consider a Christian. Just being honest. And if you are interested, I would be willing to show you all the reasons why biblically. 

 

As an ExChristian, I Believe you are also not a Christian either. In my opinion, to be part of a religion requires atleast a little adherence to the doctrines, traditions, practices, and beliefs of that religion. Which are absent in your life by your own admissions and actions. 

 

You sir are an Enigma. (They have some neat music BTW)

 

DB

 

[walterpthefirst]

Edgarito,

 

If you want some concrete evidence that people project what is emotionally important to them on to Jesus, read on.  Here are half a dozen examples of where people have projected their own emotionally important beliefs on to the figure of Jesus, casting him in the role that they want to see. 

 

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Jesus-Magician-Renowned-Historian-Reveals/dp/157174715X

This book is popular with occultists, witches and warlocks because they can project their beliefs about magic on to Jesus.  Their emotional investment in their magic causes them to see the Jesus described in this book as giving them his divine blessing and seal of approval.  An elegant piece of emotionally-driven self-justification.

 

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_theology

Black theology seeks to liberate non-white people from multiple forms of political, social, economic, and religious subjugation and views Christian theology as a theology of liberation: "a rational study of the being of God in the world in light of the existential situation of an oppressed community, relating the forces of liberation to the essence of the Gospel, which is Jesus Christ", writes James H. Cone, one of the original advocates of the perspective. Black theology mixes Christianity with questions of civil rights, particularly raised by the Black Power movement, Black supremacy, and the Black Consciousness Movement.

 

Adherents of this theology project their political and social beliefs on to the figure of Jesus, gaining emotional satisfaction and personal empowerment along the way.

 

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalit_theology

Dalit theology is a branch of Christian theology that emerged among the Dalit caste in the Indian subcontinent in the 1980s. It shares a number of themes with Latin American liberation theology, which arose two decades earlier, including a self-identity as a people undergoing Exodus.^[1] Dalit theology sees hope in the "Nazareth Manifesto" of Luke 4, where Jesus speaks of preaching "good news to the poor ... freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind" and of releasing "the oppressed."

 

The Dalits (Untouchables) are the lowest caste in India and have a long history of discrimination by higher castes, they hold the lowest social status and are excluded from many of the benefits and privileges enjoyed by others.  In a very similar way to Black Liberation theologists, Christian Dalits project their hopes of betterment on to the figure of Jesus.  The freedom, justice and happiness they look for in this world being just a foretaste of similar rewards he will give them in heaven.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_universalism

Christian universalism is a school of Christian theology focused around the doctrine of universal reconciliation – the view that all human beings will ultimately be saved and restored to a right relationship with God. "Christian universalism" and "the belief or hope in the universal reconciliation through Christ" are concepts that can even be understood as synonyms.

 

Christian Universalists project their emotional discomfort about hell on to the figure of Jesus, interpreting his words about eternal damnation as being mistranslations or misunderstandings of the NT Greek word, ‘forever’.  They claim that the word aionos doesn’t mean literally forever, but for “an Age”.  In their theology hell is a place of correction and purification, which eventually becomes empty once it has served it purpose.  Then that Age comes to an end when the last sinner leaves hell and enters heaven. Another example of people using Jesus and the scriptures to confirm what is emotionally important to them.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_Christianity

While many such scholars sought to place Jesus in the context of ancient Judaism, some writers reconstructed a historical Jesus who corresponded to racialist and antisemitic ideology. In the writings of such antisemites as Emile Burnouf, Houston Stewart Chamberlain, and Paul de Lagarde, Jesus was redefined as an Aryan hero who struggled against Jews and Judaism.

 

Adherents of this type of rabidly antisemitic ‘Christianity’ project their racist beliefs on to the figure of Jesus, denying or ignoring what the bible says about his Jewish ancestry and upbringing.  This is about as blatant as it gets when it comes to people using scripture to justify their emotional directives.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_vegetarianism

Christian vegetarians and vegans often appeal to the ethic that Jesus embodied, and called people to emulate, in making their case for a distinctively Christian vegetarianism.

Among the early Judeo-Christian Gnostics the Ebionites held that John the Baptist, James the Just and Jesus were vegetarians.

 

Christian vegetarians project their emotional discomfort with eating meat on to the figure of Jesus, using gnostic traditions to promote the view that he was a vegetarian. 

 

 

 

Do you see how it works, Ed?

 

Occultists project what their emotions tell them is important on to Jesus the Magician.

Black and Dalit theologians project what their emotions tell them is important on to Jesus the Political Liberator.

Universalists project what their emotions tell them is important on to Jesus the Universal Saviour.

Positive Christians project what their emotions tell them is important on to Jesus the Aryan.

Vegetarians project what their emotions tell them is important on to Jesus the Vegetarian.

 

And so the result of all this emotional projection isn't the truth.  Instead of the truth we get Jesus being a wizard or a Nazi or a veggie.  Anything but what the bible actually says about him.  That's what happens when you let your emotions dictate what you want the bible to say.  That's what happens when you let your emotions filter out all those inconvenient passages about god. You end up with the god you want and not the god that's actually described in the book.

 

Emotions do not lead to the truth.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Edgarcito]

2 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

Edgarito,

 

If you want some concrete evidence that people project what is emotionally important to them on to Jesus, read on.  Here are half a dozen examples of where people have projected their own emotionally important beliefs on to the figure of Jesus, casting him in the role that they want to see. 

 

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Jesus-Magician-Renowned-Historian-Reveals/dp/157174715X

This book is popular with occultists, witches and warlocks because they can project their beliefs about magic on to Jesus.  Their emotional investment in their magic causes them to see the Jesus described in this book as giving them his divine blessing and seal of approval.  An elegant piece of emotionally-driven self-justification.

 

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_theology

Black theology seeks to liberate non-white people from multiple forms of political, social, economic, and religious subjugation and views Christian theology as a theology of liberation: "a rational study of the being of God in the world in light of the existential situation of an oppressed community, relating the forces of liberation to the essence of the Gospel, which is Jesus Christ", writes James H. Cone, one of the original advocates of the perspective. Black theology mixes Christianity with questions of civil rights, particularly raised by the Black Power movement, Black supremacy, and the Black Consciousness Movement.

 

Adherents of this theology project their political and social beliefs on to the figure of Jesus, gaining emotional satisfaction and personal empowerment along the way.

 

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalit_theology

Dalit theology is a branch of Christian theology that emerged among the Dalit caste in the Indian subcontinent in the 1980s. It shares a number of themes with Latin American liberation theology, which arose two decades earlier, including a self-identity as a people undergoing Exodus.^[1] Dalit theology sees hope in the "Nazareth Manifesto" of Luke 4, where Jesus speaks of preaching "good news to the poor ... freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind" and of releasing "the oppressed."

 

The Dalits (Untouchables) are the lowest caste in India and have a long history of discrimination by higher castes, they hold the lowest social status and are excluded from many of the benefits and privileges enjoyed by others.  In a very similar way to Black Liberation theologists, Christian Dalits project their hopes of betterment on to the figure of Jesus.  The freedom, justice and happiness they look for in this world being just a foretaste of similar rewards he will give them in heaven.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_universalism

Christian universalism is a school of Christian theology focused around the doctrine of universal reconciliation – the view that all human beings will ultimately be saved and restored to a right relationship with God. "Christian universalism" and "the belief or hope in the universal reconciliation through Christ" are concepts that can even be understood as synonyms.

 

Christian Universalists project their emotional discomfort about hell on to the figure of Jesus, interpreting his words about eternal damnation as being mistranslations or misunderstandings of the NT Greek word, ‘forever’.  They claim that the word aionos doesn’t mean literally forever, but for “an Age”.  In their theology hell is a place of correction and purification, which eventually becomes empty once it has served it purpose.  Then that Age comes to an end when the last sinner leaves hell and enters heaven. Another example of people using Jesus and the scriptures to confirm what is emotionally important to them.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_Christianity

While many such scholars sought to place Jesus in the context of ancient Judaism, some writers reconstructed a historical Jesus who corresponded to racialist and antisemitic ideology. In the writings of such antisemites as Emile Burnouf, Houston Stewart Chamberlain, and Paul de Lagarde, Jesus was redefined as an Aryan hero who struggled against Jews and Judaism.

 

Adherents of this type of rabidly antisemitic ‘Christianity’ project their racist beliefs on to the figure of Jesus, denying or ignoring what the bible says about his Jewish ancestry and upbringing.  This is about as blatant as it gets when it comes to people using scripture to justify their emotional directives.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_vegetarianism

Christian vegetarians and vegans often appeal to the ethic that Jesus embodied, and called people to emulate, in making their case for a distinctively Christian vegetarianism.

Among the early Judeo-Christian Gnostics the Ebionites held that John the Baptist, James the Just and Jesus were vegetarians.

 

Christian vegetarians project their emotional discomfort with eating meat on to the figure of Jesus, using gnostic traditions to promote the view that he was a vegetarian. 

 

 

 

Do you see how it works, Ed?

 

Occultists project what their emotions tell them is important on to Jesus the Magician.

Black and Dalit theologians project what their emotions tell them is important on to Jesus the Political Liberator.

Universalists project what their emotions tell them is important on to Jesus the Universal Saviour.

Positive Christians project what their emotions tell them is important on to Jesus the Aryan.

Vegetarians project what their emotions tell them is important on to Jesus the Vegetarian.

 

And so the result of all this emotional projection isn't the truth.  Instead of the truth we get Jesus being a wizard or a Nazi or a veggie.  Anything but what the bible actually says about him.  That's what happens when you let your emotions dictate what you want the bible to say.  That's what happens when you let your emotions filter out all those inconvenient passages about god. You end up with the god you want and not the god that's actually described in the book.

 

Emotions do not lead to the truth.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Why wouldn't anyone not project there needs on Christ?  How the hell do you think they became lost in the first place.  Scientific understanding of their individual lives and a subsequent injection of understanding in a pill?  Drugs come to mind Walter?  

 

Quit dealing the same hand with no winning hand.  Please.

[Edgarcito]

4 hours ago, walterpthefirst said:

I tried to broach the issue of emotions NOT leading to universal truths here, Ed.

 

When I cited this science paper.

 

https://www.maths.ed.ac.uk/~v1ranick/papers/wigner.pdf     THE UNREASONABLE EFFECTIVENESS OF MATHEMATICS IN THE NATURAL SCIENCES

 

Scientists do NOT use their emotions to discover universal truths about reality.

 

That's how Muslims, Jews, Mormons, Sikhs and Christians, who also happen to be scientists, all agree about universal physical truths, even if they can't agree about religious matters.

 

They all agree about the atomic weight of hydrogen, the frequency of UV light and the place of gallium on the periodic table.

 

That's because they put their emotions aside and see what's in the natural world clearly.

 

They see what is actually there.

 

Emotions cannot do that.

 

 

"But the biggest problem with your argument here is that my objection to substitutionary death is moral, not intellectual.  It is not based on biology or an understanding of what life is, where it came from, where it resides, or any of the rest of it.  If I understood nothing of biology, I would still have a moral and ethical imperative to respect all of life and every living being.  This obligation overrides any acceptance of bloodshed for the forgiveness of sin or for the righting of wrongs.  Simply put, it is wrong to punish one person for someone else's mistake; and I know that even without being able to definitely state exactly where life resides"

 

We aren't having a discussion about objective certainty Walter.  John's objection is moral.  It would be nice that you could explain how the chemistry/physics define our needs and decisions, but I don't think you can.  The people who raped, killed, and hung the little girl, they made a mistake and it's wrong to punish them by some moral standard that John holds apparently.  

 

Now grace comes to mind give we DON'T completely understand and will never.  Which by the way, matches the Christian belief what, exactly?  We pray for that understanding, we hope for it, and that our needs will be met.  And sometimes we don't get it, but we still place faith in the greater scheme is better for us.....life now, and life eternal.  All of which involve the reality that includes emotions. 

 

Morality seemingly rises from the inability to understand.  How our inadequacies manifest themselves in our incompleteness and how we deal with that.

 

John still wants to know why we are created in such a way to be incomplete.  

 

And I have the answer tonight for you John.  That we may know Jesus and in turn know God.

 

Amen and amen.  

 

Robin Williams in Good Will Hunting does a good job of describing life.  The scene where he talks about his wife and her understanding.  Oh shit, that sounds like Christianity.  Y'all probably didn't notice that part.

 

The part John, where you would give anything to see your child around Christmas?  Go do that.  Go figure out how to achieve that.  

 

 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

10 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

The people who raped, killed, and hung the little girl, they made a mistake and it's wrong to punish them by some moral standard that John holds apparently.  

This is a false statement.  A lie.  You know that this is a lie; and yet you told it publicly anyway.

 

You don't get to lecture anyone about morality, hypocrite. 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

11 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

John still wants to know why we are created in such a way to be incomplete.  

This is a false statement.  A lie.  You know that this is a lie; and yet you told it publicly anyway.

 

 You don't get to lecture anyone about morality, hypocrite

[TheRedneckProfessor]

13 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

And I have the answer tonight for you John.  That we may know Jesus and in turn know God.

This is simply the addressing of the strawman argument you presented with the two lies you told about me.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

15 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Morality seemingly rises from the inability to understand.  How our inadequacies manifest themselves in our incompleteness and how we deal with that.

How does this answer the questions:

 

Why does there need to be a wage for Sin in the first place?

 

And

 

Why did god choose Death to be the wage for Sin?

 

Your god is a bloodthirsty barbarian, Ed.  Lying about me won't change that.  Dodging the questions won't change that.  Changing the subject won't change that.

 

You worship a projection of your own insecurities, pettiness, jealousy, and moral depravity.  

 

Amen and amen, indeed.