Personal Faith Explained

[◊ Weezer ◊]

Rank, I have been curious as to what your faith is.  Would you explain it here?

[RankStranger]

On 7/23/2023 at 9:47 PM, Weezer said:

Rank, I have been curious as to what your faith is.  Would you explain it here?

 

Sure.  There isn't much to explain really. 

 

I believed in Jesus when I was young.  Then once I came to understand that my idea of Jesus couldn't mesh with reality in any sense, I no longer believed.  That lasted for over 30 years.  Then through prayer, through study, and through an apparently unconscious drive that's been brewing in me for at least a decade prior... I came to believe again.

 

I'm not here to rationally convince you or anybody that you should believe the same- that's between you and God.  Nor am I here to have my own understanding of faith picked apart by cynical alleged rationalists. 

 

I have my own opinions on what faith means to me and to others, and I'm fully convinced that I can't satisfy anyone here with an explanation.  Faith is something that any individual has to work out themselves- or not.  I believe that people should pursue what's right for them, and that may not be the same as what's right for me.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

50 minutes ago, RankStranger said:

and through an apparently unconscious drive that's been brewing in me for at least a decade prior... I came to believe again.

Mark Twain described faith as "believing in something you just know ain't true."  I don't disagree with him in theory.  But, in practice, I sometimes wonder exactly how much free will is involved in faith.  Because sometimes even the most rational people inexplicably believe certain things without any rational explanation.  And there are certain things that simply have to be believed, despite the lack of evidence or empirical data to support them.

 

Do you feel that you are consciously choosing to believe, despite knowing that your belief "couldn't mesh with reality in any sense"?  Or do you feel like there is some kind of something deeper compelling you to believe in spite of reality*?

 

 

 

*I use the term somewhat loosely, as I am aware that the only concept of reality any of us has is filtered through our own flawed perceptions and may, or may not, be an actual representation of the real, true, reality. 

[RankStranger]

2 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Mark Twain described faith as "believing in something you just know ain't true."  I don't disagree with him in theory.  But, in practice, I sometimes wonder exactly how much free will is involved in faith.  Because sometimes even the most rational people inexplicably believe certain things without any rational explanation.  And there are certain things that simply have to be believed, despite the lack of evidence or empirical data to support them.

 

Do you feel that you are consciously choosing to believe, despite knowing that your belief "couldn't mesh with reality in any sense"?  Or do you feel like there is some kind of something deeper compelling you to believe in spite of reality*?

 

 

 

*I use the term somewhat loosely, as I am aware that the only concept of reality any of us has is filtered through our own flawed perceptions and may, or may not, be an actual representation of the real, true, reality. 

 

I'm not sure exactly how to word this, but I'll give it a try.  

 

The words 'faith' and 'belief' are often used interchangeably even in the Bible, but I don't really consider them the same thing. 

 

The way I use the word, 'belief' is sortof a conclusion based on the information at hand.  I don't see much choice involved there.

 

I think faith involves an element of sacred trust, and extends beyond what can be justified by the information at hand.  I'm not sure if one can 'decide' to hold that trust.  This quickly gets into philosophical questions that I can't answer to my own satisfaction, let alone yours.

 

A sacred trust can be broken, and it was for me over 30 years ago.  Apparently those can heal, or be re-formed... or something.

[◊ Weezer ◊]

1 hour ago, RankStranger said:

 

Sure.  There isn't much to explain really. 

 

It sounds like your faith is in a feeling.  Can you explain what that feeling is about?  What is it you believe in??

 

 

[RankStranger]

I dunno.  These questions are pretty broad and I feel like you're fishing for something.  I've been clear about what I believe.

 

Maybe you be more specific?

[TheRedneckProfessor]

10 minutes ago, RankStranger said:

The way I use the word, 'belief' is sortof a conclusion based on the information at hand.  I don't see much choice involved there.

In my view, there gets to be a pretty big grey area between belief and knowledge here.  

 

12 minutes ago, RankStranger said:

I think faith involves an element of sacred trust, and extends beyond what can be justified by the information at hand.  I'm not sure if one can 'decide' to hold that trust.  This quickly gets into philosophical questions that I can't answer to my own satisfaction, let alone yours.

Could you maybe explain what the sacred trust is?  Is like a holy sacred, or just sacred in a really-important-but-not-religious way?

 

I'm not sure either of us will ever be satisfied with whatever answers we come up with; but it's possible we could gain a broader perspective.  I'd consider that a good thing.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

18 minutes ago, RankStranger said:

I'm not sure if one can 'decide' to hold that trust.

So, am I understanding you to mean you do feel some kind of something compelling you?  That faith is not merely a personal choice?

[◊ Weezer ◊]

1 hour ago, RankStranger said:

 

I believed in Jesus when I was young. 

 

 

11 minutes ago, RankStranger said:

 

 I feel like you're fishing for something.  I've been clear about what I believe.

 

I was curious if there was more to it than believing in Jesus when you were young.  Do you buy into the inerrant bible doctrine?  Is that the Jesus you have faith in?

[RankStranger]

2 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

So, am I understanding you to mean you do feel some kind of something compelling you?  That faith is not merely a personal choice?

 

Yes, I feel compelled.  No, I don't believe it's entirely a personal choice.  How much is a personal choice and how much isn't?  I really don't know.

 

But for some background information, just as a matter of philosophy and science, I have doubts about our commonly held concept of 'free will'.  Sam Harris has some interesting insights in this area.

 

This is one of those philosophical questions that I don't have a good answer for, even for myself.

[RankStranger]

30 minutes ago, Weezer said:

 

I was curious if there was more to it than believing in Jesus when you were young.  Do you buy into the inerrant bible doctrine?  Is that the Jesus you have faith in?

 

Of course there's more to it.  My childhood faith was broken.  My adult faith contains much of my childhood faith, but I see things from an adult perspective now.

 

No, I don't buy into the inerrant bible doctrine.  At all.  That's what I mean when I say that I'm not a fundamentalist.

 

I have faith in Jesus, and in God.  I don't think the Bible is anywhere close to a complete description of either, nor is it an infallible book.  But it's also what we've got, whatever it's flaws.  I don't worship books. 

 

I consider the Bible to be a Holy book though.  Or a sacred book... in more secular language.

[RankStranger]

43 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

In my view, there gets to be a pretty big grey area between belief and knowledge here.  

 

Could you maybe explain what the sacred trust is?  Is like a holy sacred, or just sacred in a really-important-but-not-religious way?

 

 

 

It's like Holy sacred.  That's Christianese for 'sacred'.

 

That trust and the understood promise from me to God, and from God to me... that's what faith is.  I believe it can be broken.  I don't really know what that means to God, though others definitely have opinions.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

20 minutes ago, RankStranger said:

 

Yes, I feel compelled.  No, I don't believe it's entirely a personal choice.  How much is a personal choice and how much isn't?  I really don't know.

 

But for some background information, just as a matter of philosophy and science, I have doubts about our commonly held concept of 'free will'.  Sam Harris has some interesting insights in this area.

 

This is one of those philosophical questions that I don't have a good answer for, even for myself.

That's interesting.  I have long held doubts about our current concept of free will, even before I read Mr. Harris' treatise on the subject.  For me, disbelief and the loss of faith were not a matter of personal choice.  In fact, I wanted to keep believing in jesus and the christian religion.  I never made a conscious decision; I simply had a realization. 

 

I considered myself an atheist for a long time.  Even described myself as such in my extimony on this website.  But I eventually came to regard agnosticism as a more intellectually honest position.  Despite the lack of any compelling evidence for a god, higher power, greater force, or something, there are still a lot of things we don't know.  A lot of unanswered questions.  I can't help but table the god question for now; until more compelling evidence comes into play, for or against, that question will just have to be thrown onto the unanswered pile.

 

I cannot, at present, imagine ever believing again, though.  Not without something more concrete than what we currently have.  But, I can say with certainty that the god described in the bible cannot exist.  That leads me to the conclusion that either the bible is generally false and not a holy book; or, as you say, at best it is incomplete.  

[TheRedneckProfessor]

17 minutes ago, RankStranger said:

 

It's like Holy sacred.  That's Christianese for 'sacred'.

 

That trust and the understood promise from me to God, and from God to me... that's what faith is.  I believe it can be broken.  I don't really know what that means to God, though others definitely have opinions.

Do you, then, feel like you broke a trust or a promise to god when you stopped believing?  And, if so, was it a conscious and deliberate decision on your part?  Or did you also equally feel as compelled then as you do now?

[RankStranger]

28 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Do you, then, feel like you broke a trust or a promise to god when you stopped believing?  And, if so, was it a conscious and deliberate decision on your part?  Or did you also equally feel as compelled then as you do now?

 

I don't know that I felt 'compelled' when my faith broke.  It was more of a realization, like you describe.  A conclusion I came to that necessarily led to a different understanding and world view than I held before.  I didn't feel like I broke a trust.  Since I had concluded that God wasn't real, there was no trust to break from my point of view.

 

Like the concept of free will, these days I also have serious doubts about the thing we call rationality.  I think its utility is limited to only certain domains.  I consider it a tool or an approach, no longer a life philosophy.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

2 minutes ago, RankStranger said:

I don't know that I felt 'compelled' when my faith broke.  It was more of a realization, like you describe.  A conclusion I came to that necessarily led to a different understanding and world view than I held before.

Was your coming back into faith also a similar realization?

[TheRedneckProfessor]

3 minutes ago, RankStranger said:

Like the concept of free will, these days I also have serious doubts about the thing we call rationality.  I think its utility is limited to only certain domains.  I consider it a tool or an approach, no longer a life philosophy.

I concur.  There are certain areas in my own life where rationality is simply useless.  Much like Sherlock Holmes said, "When you have eliminated all which is impossible, then whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."  Often grasping at the most irrational possibility turns out to be the most rational decision.   Life's weird. 

[RankStranger]

1 hour ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

I concur.  There are certain areas in my own life where rationality is simply useless.  Much like Sherlock Holmes said, "When you have eliminated all which is impossible, then whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."  Often grasping at the most irrational possibility turns out to be the most rational decision.   Life's weird. 

 

I like this post.

[TABA]

5 hours ago, RankStranger said:

Then through prayer, through study, and through an apparently unconscious drive that's been brewing in me for at least a decade prior... I came to believe again.

So did the praying come before the belief? 

[RankStranger]

1 hour ago, TABA said:

So did the praying come before the belief? 

 

Yeah, at least a decade prior.

[TABA]

2 hours ago, TABA said:

So did the praying come before the belief? 

 

44 minutes ago, RankStranger said:

Yeah, at least a decade prior.

 

During that decade, did you consider yourself atheist, agnostic, or what?

To whom - if anyone - did you address your prayers?  What was the nature of the prayers? 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

6 hours ago, RankStranger said:

 

I have faith in Jesus, and in God.  I don't think the Bible is anywhere close to a complete description of either, nor is it an infallible book.  But it's also what we've got, whatever it's flaws.  I don't worship books. 

 

 

If you had been born in India, and had grown up with stories of Krishna, and Hindu gods, where would your faith be?

[Hierophant]

20 hours ago, RankStranger said:

 

Of course there's more to it.  My childhood faith was broken.  My adult faith contains much of my childhood faith, but I see things from an adult perspective now.

 

No, I don't buy into the inerrant bible doctrine.  At all.  That's what I mean when I say that I'm not a fundamentalist.

 

I have faith in Jesus, and in God.  I don't think the Bible is anywhere close to a complete description of either, nor is it an infallible book.  But it's also what we've got, whatever it's flaws.  I don't worship books. 

 

I consider the Bible to be a Holy book though.  Or a sacred book... in more secular language.

 

I empathize with this position, but I a would not be able to maintain it. The ambiguity and vagueness is something I am not able to mentally handle. If I do not have something to sink my teeth into, I feel like I am just going to tail-spin with what ifs.

[RankStranger]

16 hours ago, TABA said:

 

 

During that decade, did you consider yourself atheist, agnostic, or what?

To whom - if anyone - did you address your prayers?  What was the nature of the prayers? 

 

I considered myself an atheist.  I didn't have any doubts about that, at the time.

 

The rest is getting into some rather personal territory.  

[RankStranger]

15 hours ago, Weezer said:

 

If you had been born in India, and had grown up with stories of Krishna, and Hindu gods, where would your faith be?

 

Likely with Krishna and/or assorted Hindu gods.  We humans just tend to work that way.