Personal Faith Explained

[RankStranger]

1 hour ago, Hierophant said:

 

I empathize with this position, but I a would not be able to maintain it. The ambiguity and vagueness is something I am not able to mentally handle. If I do not have something to sink my teeth into, I feel like I am just going to tail-spin with what ifs.

 

I get that.  When I was young, I was unable to tolerate ambiguity in my faith.  I was taught- among other things- that uncertainty was a lack of faith.  And a lack of faith was a sure path to hell.  I don't believe that at all now.

[TABA]

So, @RankStranger, let me ask you the $64 question:  having been a member of this community, first as an apostate atheist and now as a Christian again, what is your opinion of this community and what we do?  Are we leading people to Hell?

[RankStranger]

23 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

 

1.  Do you feel that you are consciously choosing to believe, despite knowing that your belief "couldn't mesh with reality in any sense"? 

 

2.  Or do you feel like there is some kind of something deeper compelling you to believe in spite of reality*?

 

 

I see that I've skipped over a couple of good questions.  Formatting added for clarity.

 

 

1.  My childhood faith, and my childhood understanding of God and Jesus, could not mesh with reality in any sense.  I could no longer force myself to believe things that I thought were simply untrue. 

 

I no longer have that particular problem, in part because I acknowledge and embrace ambiguity.  I'm not in possession of a more honest approach than that, though I'm open to ideas.

 

I know that my monkey-brain is a severely limited tool.  Whatever ideas I hold about God, life, the universe, etc. will necessarily be incomplete, in many or possibly most cases incorrect, and may or may not map onto our apparently 4+ dimensional reality at all.  We're all frogs in a well.  Or sitting in a cave pontificating about shadows on the wall.  I'll butcher some more metaphors if I have to.  Point is that I think we humans actually 'know' very little outside our mundane daily reality.

 

 

2.  Yes, in spite of my severely limited perception of reality.  Even a confident and capable blind cave fish is still blind.

[Hierophant]

My million dollar question would be do you believe in Hell, i.e., some type of eternal punishment if you do not believe in Christianity in some form or fashion?

[RankStranger]

28 minutes ago, TABA said:

So, @RankStranger, let me ask you the $64 question:  having been a member of this community, first as an apostate atheist and now as a Christian again, what is your opinion of this community and what we do?  Are we leading people to Hell?

 

No.  Try as you might, ya'll aren't capable of leading anybody to hell.  In my ambiguous opinion 

 

I'd rather not come across as your standard condescending Christian(TM), but that may be unavoidable... because I believe what I believe, and I don't need any of y'all to agree.  I think most of you are Good Christians whether you acknowledge that or not.  I think that for all practical purposes, ya'll (and we) are hard-wired that way.

 

I don't think this can be changed, or should be changed, or will be changed.  I don't think it matters in the least whether or not anybody here agrees with this.

[RankStranger]

3 minutes ago, Hierophant said:

My million dollar question would be do you believe in Hell, i.e., some type of eternal punishment if you do not believe in Christianity in some form or fashion?

 

I don't know whether there is any reality at all to Hell, or whether it's just a metaphor.  I lean toward the latter, especially considering that much of the concept was just copy/pasted from Hades and from other older religions.  But God will do what he will do- I can't change that.  Ideally I wouldn't want to change it.  

 

But since you don't believe, this isn't of any concern to you... right?

 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Would I be correct in concluding that you have now pitched your tent firmly in the predestination camp?

[Hierophant]

1 minute ago, RankStranger said:

 

I don't know whether there is any reality at all to Hell, or whether it's just a metaphor.  I lean toward the latter, especially considering that much of the concept was just copy/pasted from Hades and from other older religions.  But God will do what he will do- I can't change that.  Ideally I wouldn't want to change it.  

 

But since you don't believe, this isn't of any concern to you... right?

 

 

 

When I was a believer, this topic was my main concern. IMO, that was the point of Christianity, not going to eternal torture. In my quest to know Hell was not going to be my eternal destination, I essentially studied my way out of Christianity. Just to hit the highlight, I wanted to know that I had the right orthodoxy and orthopraxy to avoid eternal pain. Even trying to build a faith from the ground up, I could not get any type of certainty and became disillusioned with the whole idea.

[RankStranger]

Just now, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Would I be correct in concluding that you have now pitched your tent firmly in the predestination camp?

 

No, I may have pitched a tent... but it's not firmly in that camp.  I can see it from where I sit though.  

 

[RankStranger]

7 minutes ago, Hierophant said:

 

When I was a believer, this topic was my main concern. IMO, that was the point of Christianity, not going to eternal torture. In my quest to know Hell was not going to be my eternal destination, I essentially studied my way out of Christianity. Just to hit the highlight, I wanted to know that I had the right orthodoxy and orthopraxy to avoid eternal pain. Even trying to build a faith from the ground up, I could not get any type of certainty and became disillusioned with the whole idea.

 

That's how a lot of people see it, and I did too when I was young.  I don't see it that way anymore.

 

If Hell is a real place/thing, and if God is angry, vengeful and all-powerful... then we're all headed for Hell.  If all that is true, then there's nothing we can do to stop it.

 

One thing I've noticed about Evangelicals, compared with more liberal denominations, is the Evangelicals' singular focus on personal salvation.  In many cases, to the exclusion of anything/everything else in life that could possibly threaten their feeling of 'being saved'.  I can't claim to speak with any authority here- this is just my personal opinion- but this strikes me as an inherently selfish take on Christianity.  Yes, we all want to be saved from Hell.  But is it enough to mouth the right words and force one's self to believe some particular thing that will supposedly release us from that fate?  Even if that was enough... could you do that, and really mean it, in the face of a God who you believe is vengeful and unjust?

 

That's not how this works.  That's not how any of this works.  In my humble, non-authoritative, and ambiguous opinion.

 

[Hierophant]

Interesting take. I am not sure how to frame it like you do.

[RankStranger]

According to my childhood understanding of Christianity, I could only conclude that every single one of us is going to Hell.  No matter what we do or what we believe, we will never live up to the standards laid out in the Bible.  Assuming we can understand those standards at all in a complete, correct and cohesive manner (which I don't think is possible since the Bible is not a totally correct, complete, cohesive book).

 

Jesus spoke in parables and metaphors.  So does a lot of the Bible.  I think my legalistic, autistic understanding of Christianity was worse than useless.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

I'm not sure I could believe in a god who is simply "going to do what he's going to do" without any regard for the self-awareness which he purportedly gave us.  Sure, if sufficient evidence for such a god existed, I'd have no choice but to accept his presence.  But to place my faith in him--to trust in, rely on, and cling to such a god?  I couldn't do it.  I mean, I couldn't even believe in the kinder, gentler god of mercy and forgiveness, despite how desperately I wanted to, because it was too stark a contrast against the problem of suffering. 

 

But to come to the conclusion that god is the cause of that suffering and doesn't even take our feelings into consideration, so long as his plan gets accomplished?  No.  To create us with self-awareness, capable of experiencing physical, psychological, and emotional trauma; and then simply decide this one goes to hell, that one doesn't, irrespective of how each actually lived their lives, will never be seen as anything but cruelty and betrayal to me.  

 

Perhaps I have misunderstood what you're saying and inadvertently waged war against a strawman of my own making here.  My apologies if that is the case.

[RankStranger]

7 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

I'm not sure I could believe in a god who is simply "going to do what he's going to do" without any regard for the self-awareness which he purportedly gave us.  Sure, if sufficient evidence for such a god existed, I'd have no choice but to accept his presence.  But to place my faith in him--to trust in, rely on, and cling to such a god?  I couldn't do it.  I mean, I couldn't even believe in the kinder, gentler god of mercy and forgiveness, despite how desperately I wanted to, because it was too stark a contrast against the problem of suffering. 

 

But to come to the conclusion that god is the cause of that suffering and doesn't even take our feelings into consideration, so long as his plan gets accomplished?  No.  To create us with self-awareness, capable of experiencing physical, psychological, and emotional trauma; and then simply decide this one goes to hell, that one doesn't, irrespective of how each actually lived their lives, will never be seen as anything but cruelty and betrayal to me.  

 

Perhaps I have misunderstood what you're saying and inadvertently waged war against a strawman of my own making here.  My apologies if that is the case.

 

I'm not sure whether those shadows on the cave wall are men or scarecrows, and it doesn't really matter in this context.  This isn't a debate- this is a discussion among friends.

 

If I speak of God, and you speak of fate, we will in many cases be speaking about the same thing.  

 

Whether or not you can personalize God, whether or not you want to do that, or whether or not you think there'd be any benefit in doing so... those aren't up to me.  I'm not sure they're up to you either.

 

If God created the universe, then he has indeed caused suffering in that sense.  My question would be:  So what?  Are you going to respond by raging against God and the universe He created?  Good luck with that.

 

 

 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

18 hours ago, Weezer said:

 

If you had been born in India, and had grown up with stories of Krishna, and Hindu gods, where would your faith be?

 

2 hours ago, RankStranger said:

 

Likely with Krishna and/or assorted Hindu gods.  We humans just tend to work that way.

 

Then you would agree that religion is programmed into us depending on our environment??  To me that means gods and saviors are merely concepts we have in our minds.  Figments of our imagination.  Fantasy, depending on our programming.   Maybe there is a "SOURCE" of everything that exists in the universe, but to me it appears the source just put everthing into being, and walked away.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

33 minutes ago, RankStranger said:

Whether or not you can personalize God, whether or not you want to do that, or whether or not you think there'd be any benefit in doing so... those aren't up to me.  I'm not sure they're up to you either.

Have you found any practical benefit to your regained faith?

 

34 minutes ago, RankStranger said:

If God created the universe, then he has indeed caused suffering in that sense.  My question would be:  So what?  Are you going to respond by raging against God and the universe He created?  Good luck with that.

Well, raging against a situation I have no control over, even if it is just a theoretical situation, would be useless.  But, the other half of that prayer thing is about having the courage to change the things I can change.  Sure, the only thing I really have any control over is my own response to the situation.  Even if I don't get any extra credit for speaking out against the injustice, the cruelty, the barbarity of it all, I still want to be the guy who stands up for the oppressed, the suffering, and the innocent.  In my mind, that is (part of) the essence of true character. 

 

I suppose, in that sense, I am making a deliberate choice to reject the christian god, by default of making a deliberate choice to be the kind of person who can not accept him.  Hell for me if this world is the best you have to offer, Good Sir; I'd rather stand in solidarity with the rejected, than kneel in submission with the subjugated.

[RankStranger]

1 hour ago, Weezer said:

 

 

Then you would agree that religion is programmed into us depending on our environment?? 

 

Definitely.

 

 

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To me that means gods and saviors are merely concepts we have in our minds.  Figments of our imagination.  Fantasy, depending on our programming.   

 

Could be.  I can't prove otherwise.

 

I can have faith otherwise, but I'm not asking you to do the same.  I think you should do what's right for you.  And I think you will.

 

 

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Maybe there is a "SOURCE" of everything that exists in the universe,

 

You can call Him whatever you like.  I like calling Him 'God' these days.  I've called Him a lot of other things in the past.  I don't think He plans to kick my ass over that... but that's not my call to make 

 

 

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but to me it appears the source just put everything into being, and walked away.

 

I don't know what He did after the Creation.  I don't know if time as we know it exists for Him. 

[Hierophant]

@RankStranger Do you have some type of systematic theology worked out? If so, what are the pillars, e.g., the Bible, personal reflection, a feeling (urging, calling - call it what you will, but I think you understand the sensation I am speaking to) etc.?

[RankStranger]

1 hour ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Have you found any practical benefit to your regained faith?

 

 

Every single day.  Some I could definitely explain to you, others I'd have trouble with.  Some would be diminished by trying to put words to it.  Some is very personal.  Some you definitely wouldn't believe if I typed it out, but the fact remains.

 

 

 

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Well, raging against a situation I have no control over, even if it is just a theoretical situation, would be useless. But, the other half of that prayer thing is about having the courage to change the things I can change.  Sure, the only thing I really have any control over is my own response to the situation.  Even if I don't get any extra credit for speaking out against the injustice, the cruelty, the barbarity of it all, I still want to be the guy who stands up for the oppressed, the suffering, and the innocent.  In my mind, that is (part of) the essence of true character. 

 

I worship a God who forms the light and creates darkness.  He makes peace and creates evil.  He, the Lord, does all these things.  I don't know why he does, but I accept that He does.  Is it immoral for me to accept that God creates everything, including evil?  I don't think so.  I think it's a healthy thing to understand and accept. 

 

To me, morally condemning God is equivalent to morally condemning the fate and the universe.  It's beyond pointless.  And even if it wasn't pointless, it's nothing more than a moral statement.  

 

I think you have better reasons for your lack of belief.

 

 

 

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I suppose, in that sense, I am making a deliberate choice to reject the christian god, by default of making a deliberate choice to be the kind of person who can not accept him.  Hell for me if this world is the best you have to offer, Good Sir; I'd rather stand in solidarity with the rejected, than kneel in submission with the subjugated.

 

That's a sad place to be.  I've been there.

 

[RankStranger]

41 minutes ago, Hierophant said:

@RankStranger Do you have some type of systematic theology worked out? If so, what are the pillars, e.g., the Bible, personal reflection, a feeling (urging, calling - call it what you will, but I think you understand the sensation I am speaking to) etc.?

 

No, not really.  I have some ideas, and I've found (to my surprise) that theology does matter to me.  So do concepts like prevenient grace.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

31 minutes ago, RankStranger said:

Every single day.  Some I could definitely explain to you, others I'd have trouble with.  Some would be diminished by trying to put words to it.  Some is very personal.  Some you definitely wouldn't believe if I typed it out, but the fact remains

Share what you're comfortable sharing, or don't, as you see fit.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

32 minutes ago, RankStranger said:

To me, morally condemning God is equivalent to morally condemning the fate and the universe.  It's beyond pointless.  And even if it wasn't pointless, it's nothing more than a moral statement.  

Is prayer pointless?  I might say that asking god to change his plan is equivalent to asking fate to change its mind, or asking the universe to change its nature.  To which you might counter, as christians often do, that prayer isn't about changing god's plan,  but about changing our hearts, for in god's answer to our prayers we find new understanding, discover deeper perspective, realize that his ways really are perfect and all the strength, hope, and faith that goes along with it.

 

This is the same rebuttal I'd offer here: that being morally outraged at things that are, in fact, morally outrageous may seem a futile venture for practical purposes, but not for spiritual purposes (for lack of better terminology).  We become better people when we find within ourselves the strength, wherewithal, and fortitude to stand up and proclaim, "This is not right."

 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

40 minutes ago, RankStranger said:

I think you have better reasons for your lack of belief.

This is true.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

41 minutes ago, RankStranger said:

That's a sad place to be.  I've been there.

I'd venture to say your position might be a shade more emotionally driven than mine; but I don't find either of them particularly sad.

[RankStranger]

48 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Share what you're comfortable sharing, or don't, as you see fit.

 

The first and most obvious is that I'm no longer angry at the Church.  Or at God.  Or at other peoples' ideas about God.  Think about how your life would be different if that changed.

 

 

 

39 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Is prayer pointless?  I might say that asking god to change his plan is equivalent to asking fate to change its mind, or asking the universe to change its nature.  To which you might counter, as christians often do, that prayer isn't about changing god's plan,  but about changing our hearts, for in god's answer to our prayers we find new understanding, discover deeper perspective, realize that his ways really are perfect and all the strength, hope, and faith that goes along with it.

 

I can't tell you how prayer works- definitely not in a way that would satisfy you.  But I don't find it pointless at all.  It's improved my life in several respects.

 

 

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This is the same rebuttal I'd offer here: that being morally outraged at things that are, in fact, morally outrageous may seem a futile venture for practical purposes, but not for spiritual purposes (for lack of better terminology).  We become better people when we find within ourselves the strength, wherewithal, and fortitude to stand up and proclaim, "This is not right."

 

I'm not sure if I follow you correctly, but I don't think being spiritually/morally outraged is a good thing if you can help it.  Not long term anyway.  It sounds exhausting.

 

What exactly is "not right" or "morally outrageous" in your opinion?  What exactly are you standing up against, and who exactly are you standing up to?  If you don't believe in God, then are you just objecting to words in a book?  Or is the moral outrage in question something more substantial than literary criticism?

 

 

37 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

I'd venture to say your position might be a shade more emotionally driven than mine; but I don't find either of them particularly sad.

 

I think we human apes aren't driven at all without emotion.  I don't think that's a bad thing... it's just an 'is' thing.

 

 

Edit:

 

This is what I find sad:

 

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Hell for me if this world is the best you have to offer, Good Sir; I'd rather stand in solidarity with the rejected, than kneel in submission with the subjugated.

 

That's not a healthy view of the world IMO.