Personal Faith Explained

[TheRedneckProfessor]

45 minutes ago, RankStranger said:

The first and most obvious is that I'm no longer angry at the Church.  Or at God.  Or at other peoples' ideas about God.  Think about how your life would be different if that changed

My life wouldn't be any different at all; because I haven't been angry at god, or the church, or anyone else's idea of god for nearly 20 years.  In recent years, I've even come to regard compassion as the most appropriate response.  I don't always get it right, not even by my own standard, which is the only one that matters to me.

 

54 minutes ago, RankStranger said:

But I don't find it pointless at all.  It's improved my life in several respects.

Exactly. 

 

55 minutes ago, RankStranger said:

What exactly is "not right" or "morally outrageous" in your opinion? 

I have already defined this in some detail.  As a brief review: if your concept of god were true, that would be a moral outrage worthy of being morally outraged about.

 

As it stands, I do not hold your concept to be true, nor any of the other christian concepts of god.  That doesn't negate the fact that many others do believe in one concept or another of the christian god.  As someone who has been liberated from such belief, I hold a moral responsibility to do what I can to help free them.  Surely you've seen The Matrix.

 

1 hour ago, RankStranger said:

I think we human apes aren't driven at all without emotion.  I don't think that's a bad thing... it's just an 'is' thing.

I agree.

 

1 hour ago, RankStranger said:

This is what I find sad:

...

1 hour ago, RankStranger said:

That's not a healthy view of the world IMO.

On this we disagree and likely always will.  Something about *“Learn to do right! Seek justice, encourage the oppressed. Defend the cause of the fatherless, plead the case of the widow.” and other such teachings have stayed with me long since my childhood indoctrination.  Even through my deconversion, this is the kind of morality I chose.  I don't need a god or the hope of life everlasting for that.

 

*Isaiah 1:17 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

13 hours ago, RankStranger said:

The first and most obvious is that I'm no longer angry at the Church.  Or at God.  Or at other peoples' ideas about God. 

Am I correct in understanding here that you were angry at god and the church as an atheist?  Even after 30 years as an atheist?

[RankStranger]

On 7/28/2023 at 5:51 PM, TheRedneckProfessor said:

My life wouldn't be any different at all; because I haven't been angry at god, or the church, or anyone else's idea of god for nearly 20 years. 

 

 

Well you sure had me fooled.  You are definitely a man on an anti-Christian mission, and you're definitely angry about some God-related stuff.

 

So what am I missing here?  Or are you just not acknowledging the obvious for rhetorical purposes?

 

 

On 7/29/2023 at 5:54 AM, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Am I correct in understanding here that you were angry at god and the church as an atheist?  Even after 30 years as an atheist?

 

It's hard to pin down precisely what I was angry about.  Maybe I was angry at the Church, or the Christians, or things that the Church and/or the Christians taught and things they did.  Maybe I was angry at God, or angry at what he was presented to BE, or angry because I wasn't able to accept any notion of God as possible... let alone real.  In some ways it was akin to shaking my tiny fist at the universe because fuck this shit.

 

I see much the same thing in you though, particularly in your comments on the Problem of Evil.  Here, just as an example:

 

Quote

Hell for me if this world is the best you have to offer, Good Sir; I'd rather stand in solidarity with the rejected, than kneel in submission with the subjugated.

 

Edit:  This quote reminds me of an idea that comes up regularly among ExChristians, Atheists and the like:  The idea being that in many ways Atheists and/or ExChristians are better 'christians' than the Christians.  Maybe they understand the bible better, love their neighbor better, are more honest... whatever the argument may be.

 

It's interesting how judgmental, superior attitudes are so similar on both sides of this divide.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

3 hours ago, RankStranger said:

So what am I missing here? 

1.  If I describe Lord Voldemort as "cunning, baffling, and powerful" this is merely an acknowledgment of how a fictitious, literary character is written.  Such an acknowledgment hardly carries any strong emotion, certainly not anger.  Likewise, if I describe the god of the bible as "maniacal, barbaric, and evil," it is simply because that is the way his character is described by the bible.  Granted, most christians overlook those verses, which makes it easier for them to assume I'm angry; and that, in turn, makes it easier for them to write me of as just another angry atheist.  The truth is, I'm neither angry nor an atheist.  This is something you are missing. 

 

2.  Being opposed to something is not necessarily an indication of strong emotion toward it; and active debate does not equate to anger.  The purpose of the Lion's Den and other debate forums here is not for us ex-christians to take our aggression out on the occasional believer who wanders by.  Rather, it is to give christians the opportunity to present their best arguments for their religion, and for us to give our best counter-arguments.  The target audience (lurkers, newbies, and recent deconverts) can then decide for themselves based on the debates presented.  This is also something you are missing. 

 

3.  I will be the first to admit, and freely do so, that I sometimes get angry when debating with christians.  But, my record speaks for itself, it's never anger at god, their beliefs, or their concept of god.  I get angry at the dishonest tactics christians use in debate.  I get angry at their behavior and the deliberate nature of their nefariousness.  This, by the way, isn't exclusive to christians; I get equally angry when atheists, Buddhists, and used car salesmen act that way.  This is something you are missing. 

 

4.  As I've said concerning compassion: I don't always get it right.  But I have learned enough about it to know that sometimes the most compassionate thing I can do for another person is to call them on their bullshit.  Often, anger is a useful tool in doing so.  In such cases, even here on this website, I may appear angry.  In truth, it is always my desire to help that motivates me.  But that motivation is always informed, calculated, and deliberate; because I want to make the greatest impact possible.  This is something you are missing.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

2 hours ago, RankStranger said:

I see much the same thing in you though, particularly in your comments on the Problem of Evil.  Here, just as an example:

 

Quote

Hell for me if this world is the best you have to offer, Good Sir; I'd rather stand in solidarity with the rejected, than kneel in submission with the subjugated.

 

Edit:  This quote reminds me of an idea that comes up regularly among ExChristians, Atheists and the like:  The idea being that in many ways Atheists and/or ExChristians are better 'christians' than the Christians.  Maybe they understand the bible better, love their neighbor better, are more honest... whatever the argument may be.

 

It's interesting how judgmental, superior attitudes are so similar on both sides of this divide.

It is difficult to understand empathy toward others if you do not actually experience it; and that makes it easier to confuse it with something else entirely.  If you don't understand it, that's sad.  But not worth arguing over.  Especially since we will never agree.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

2 hours ago, RankStranger said:

 

It's hard to pin down precisely what I was angry about.  Maybe I was angry at the Church, or the Christians, or things that the Church and/or the Christians taught and things they did.  Maybe I was angry at God, or angry at what he was presented to BE, or angry because I wasn't able to accept any notion of God as possible... let alone real.  In some ways it was akin to shaking my tiny fist at the universe because fuck this shit.

This truly is sad.  To spend 30 years living in anger and still not even know who or what you were even angry at.  No wonder you think you see anger in other people when none exists.  It's all you ever knew for the bulk of your adult life.  You missed out on so much as a non-believer.  

[TheRedneckProfessor]

4 hours ago, RankStranger said:

You are definitely a man on an anti-Christian mission, and you're definitely angry about some God-related stuff.

And if I was on an ex-Republicans website, somebody there would be trying to paint me as an anti-Republican crusader.  The truth is that you see one small sliver of my reality on this website.  Nowhere near enough for you to form an educated opinion.  The beauty, though, is that my reality doesn't need to live up to your opinion.  Nor yours to mine.  Opinions are much more a reflection of ourselves than anyone else.  This may also be something you are missing. 

[RankStranger]

Good job Prof, and God Bless you 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

My thanks to you, good man.