Homo Naledi

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

Christians,

 

This year a documentary came out on Netflix. Since most people seem to have access to Netflix I thought this a good opportunity for you to see evidence of some of the points I've made here in the den in the past. 

 

1. The human fossil record, there is absolutely ample evidence that we evolved from beings that were not like us. They were not human/homosapiens like you and I. These beings are just another link in the ancient family tree that eventually led to us. This is not what the Bible depicts.

 

2. This documentary brings out evidence of ape like ancestors showing signs of burial rituals way before other hominid species. So much so that this discovery is revolutionary. This is big. But this is not what the Bible depicts. 

 

Why does the bible say we bury our dead? It is because we were cursed for our transgression. Death came upon us. 

 

Genesis 3:19

19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

 

Yet these creatures who do not reflect the image of God were burying their dead long before we (God reflecting) humans did. 

 

3. These prehistoric human ancestors and others predate the evolution of farming. Off the cuff the bible assumes that agricultural societies were always the way humans existed. It says in the first chapters of the Bible that there was no man to til the ground.

 

Genesis 2:5

5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.

 

But it has only been in the past 10 thousand years that homosapiens began to farm. 

 

4. The evidence in our reality does not reflect the bible. Nothing we can unearth reflects the biblical narrative. Why is that? How can the bible be true? Is it not easier to see that it just isn't true? That it doesn't reflect reality? 

 

So watch this documentary and then please explain to me how these creatures even existed. Why doesn't the bible mention these and our other ancestors? Why did they bury their dead? Did they have a spirituality? That one opens a while new can of worms huh? Are these the creatures God created maybe? 

 

 

 

 

Best regards,

Dark Bishop

[pantheory]

On 9/6/2023 at 4:00 PM, DarkBishop said:

Christians,

 

This year a documentary came out on Netflix. Since most people seem to have access to Netflix I thought this a good opportunity for you to see evidence of some of the points I've made here in the den in the past. 

 

1. The human fossil record, there is absolutely ample evidence that we evolved from beings that were not like us. They were not human/homosapiens like you and I. These beings are just another link in the ancient family tree that eventually led to us. This is not what the Bible depicts.

 

2. This documentary brings out evidence of ape like ancestors showing signs of burial rituals way before other hominid species. So much so that this discovery is revolutionary. This is big. But this is not what the Bible depicts. 

 

Why does the bible say we bury our dead? It is because we were cursed for our transgression. Death came upon us. 

 

Genesis 3:19

19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

 

Yet these creatures who do not reflect the image of God were burying their dead long before we (God reflecting) humans did. 

 

3. These prehistoric human ancestors and others predate the evolution of farming. Off the cuff the bible assumes that agricultural societies were always the way humans existed. It says in the first chapters of the Bible that there was no man to til the ground.

 

Genesis 2:5

5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.

 

But it has only been in the past 10 thousand years that homosapiens began to farm. 

 

4. The evidence in our reality does not reflect the bible. Nothing we can unearth reflects the biblical narrative. Why is that? How can the bible be true? Is it not easier to see that it just isn't true? That it doesn't reflect reality? 

 

So watch this documentary and then please explain to me how these creatures even existed. Why doesn't the bible mention these and our other ancestors? Why did they bury their dead? Did they have a spirituality? That one opens a while new can of worms huh? Are these the creatures God created maybe? 

 

 

 

 

Best regards,

Dark Bishop

 

This is more of a science thing. Of course religious folks won't understand any of  it. As for humans, they are in the genus Homo and meet the definition of humans the same as we do.  The most well known members of this genus besides us are Homo Erectus and Home Neandertales. Both Neanderthals and Homo Erectus are older species than the Homo Naledi were in this cave.

 

btw, I think this depiction of them  is better looking than other depictions of them that I have seen. Homo Erectus, the oldest known of the genus Homo, go back a million years or more, twice as old as homo Naledi, whereby Homo Sapiens go back no more than 350,000 years.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Like this one.

 

I think this is the oldest member of our genus Homo. His name is Turkana Boy. His genus is thought to be more than a million years old, twice as old as Homo Naledi.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Casualfanboy16]

31 minutes ago, pantheory said:

 

Like this one.

I didn't know you had a picture of me, Pantheory! Take this down!! Lmao.

[pantheory]

28 minutes ago, Casualfanboy16 said:

I didn't know you had a picture of me, Pantheory! Take this down!! Lmao.

 

As for me, I am both a scientist AND philosopher.

 

[Casualfanboy16]

Just now, pantheory said:

 

As for me, I am both a scientist AND philosopher.

 

This guy looks like he would say: "Me thinks, therefore me am".

[pantheory]

49 minutes ago, Casualfanboy16 said:

This guy looks like he would say: "Me thinks, therefore me am".

True ! Yup, probably something like that

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

2 hours ago, pantheory said:

This is more of a science thing. Of course religious folks won't understand any of  it. As for humans, they are in the genus Homo and meet the definition of humans the same as we do.  The most well known members of this genus besides us are Homo Erectus and Home Neandertales. Both Neanderthals and Homo Erectus are older species than the Homo Naledi were in this cave.

 

I bring it up because religious people deny it. They turn there eyes and act like it isn't true. Most deny the existence of all previous ancestors that led to Homosapiens. But they did exist. They were here. And they were not what God supposedly created in the bible. 

 

Therefore, they will not accept them as humans because they were more ape like. I would like one to watch this and explain using their bible how these beings existed at all in their small little bubble of belief. 

 

The reality is so much bigger and so much more fascinating. 

 

It's a pet peeve of mine because I was ignorant myself as a believer and preacher. Saying and truly believing that they had not found the missing link. But it just isn't true. They have! Lots of them. And Homo Naledi is probably one of the more interesting examples because of what looks like burial rituals. 

 

DB

[older]

And DNA analysis shows that there are bits of DNA in us that are the same as some in these early hominids. 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

What do you thingk of the ancient Sumerian creation stories?  Where the "gods" (plural) mixed their (DNA)? with primitive beings to create servants "in their image"??  Could a bit of a boost in our evolution have happened??  These are myths much older than the Bible.  Where did these gods come from??  From the writings they sound vey much like human beings of today.  Is it pure myth??  

[walterpthefirst]

6 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

 

I bring it up because religious people deny it. They turn there eyes and act like it isn't true. Most deny the existence of all previous ancestors that led to Homosapiens. But they did exist. They were here. And they were not what God supposedly created in the bible. 

 

Therefore, they will not accept them as humans because they were more ape like. I would like one to watch this and explain using their bible how these beings existed at all in their small little bubble of belief. 

 

The reality is so much bigger and so much more fascinating. 

 

It's a pet peeve of mine because I was ignorant myself as a believer and preacher. Saying and truly believing that they had not found the missing link. But it just isn't true. They have! Lots of them. And Homo Naledi is probably one of the more interesting examples because of what looks like burial rituals. 

 

DB

 

I'd say the situation is a bit more nuanced, DB.

 

 

Young Earth Creationist religious people deny the evidence that humans were preceded by the likes of Homo Naledi.

 

If they can't fit the evidence into the Genesis narrative then they turn their eyes away from it and act as if it isn't true.

 

Whereas, Old Earth Creationists seem to be comfortable with god guiding evolution to bring about Homo Sapiens.

 

And the OEC's will even try to use various items of scientific evidence to justify and support their Christian beliefs.

 

Like the Mitochondrial Eve.  Mitochondrial Eve - Wikipedia

 

But as the Prof can surely explain, this evidence does not support the existence of a single woman who was the mother of the entire human race.

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

2 hours ago, walterpthefirst said:

Whereas, Old Earth Creationists seem to be comfortable with god guiding evolution to bring about Homo Sapiens.

I ended up being OEC. Not my church. Just me because I couldn't believe the earth was young. I just couldn't accept it anymore after seeing the moons surface through a telescope and just accepting that the flood didn't destroy the dinosaurs. I just couldn't accept it anymore. 

 

But I never accepted that God made ape like creatures and made them evolve. That wouldn't reflect the rest of the creation story either. We know that the primates did not work the ground for food. And how could God really hold early hominids accountable for eating of the tree? That just makes the story even more unbelievable. Lol  

 

DB

[Casualfanboy16]

6 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

And how could God really hold early hominids accountable for eating of the tree? That just makes the story even more unbelievable. Lol  

 

I don't know too much about evolution stuff still, but I never thought about that. Yeah, God holding early hominids accountable for eating from the tree sounds really silly to me. I mean, the whole story is silly to me, but I feel like if the Bible has all of these holes and just raises more questions than answers and is just extremely unbelievable overall... then what makes the rest of the crazy events in the Bible true? I mean, a lot of it could be metaphorical. I'm kinda stuck in a probably too literal interpretation of things, but if I'm supposed to take this as divinely inspired literature and like these events actually unfolded, it's not doing a very good job at convincing me of anything. Especially with all the holes in it. It just feels more and more bullshit each day. I should probably do more research, but I'm getting distracted with reading other things lmfao. 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

1 hour ago, Casualfanboy16 said:

It just feels more and more bullshit each day. I should probably do more research

That is how advancing in your deconversion feels. 

And it's one of the many good things about being active on the site. We all talk about all this and good points get made across all the boards. I've gained a wealth of knowledge and just "AH HA that makes sense" moments in general, just reading what others post here. It is nice seeing all the different perspectives on the biblical narrative from people who have been there and left it behind. 

 

DB

[Casualfanboy16]

3 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

That is how advancing in your deconversion feels. 

And it's one of the many good things about being active on the site. We all talk about all this and good points get made across all the boards. I've gained a wealth of knowledge and just "AH HA that makes sense" moments in general, just reading what others post here. It is nice seeing all the different perspectives on the biblical narrative from people who have been there and left it behind. 

 

DB

Yeah, I'm actually glad about that. I still have a lot of catching up to do, but I'm learning!!! Yay!! I haven't been this excited about learning stuff in years. Even though a lot of evolution and science stuff I could be more literate at, I'm making progress!! I want to order the books recommended to me because reading it online doesn't have the same effect as holding the book, but, y'know, still stuck with my Christian parents until I figure more things out, soooo..

 

I should probably keep more track of my progress  just to feel something. I love being here, so yeah, I'm quite active on the site. Won't plan on stopping until I die. I want to help others too just as much as you guys have done and are continuing to do when I get further along with my deconversion and look more into all the cool science stuff!! Science is actually kinda fun, which is funny because I hated science class. So. Much.

[◊ Weezer ◊]

3 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

That is how advancing in your deconversion feels. 

And it's one of the many good things about being active on the site. We all talk about all this and good points get made across all the boards. I've gained a wealth of knowledge and just "AH HA that makes sense" moments in general, just reading what others post here. It is nice seeing all the different perspectives on the biblical narrative from people who have been there and left it behind. 

 

DB

Very true!  Even at my age and studying this stuff for 40 years, someone still occasionally mentions something I never heard or thought of before.  The bible is full of inconsistancies.  Things that just do not add up.

[Casualfanboy16]

5 minutes ago, Weezer said:

Very true!  Even at my age and studying this stuff for 40 years, someone still occasionally mentions something I never heard or thought of before.  The bible is full of inconsistancies.  Things that just do not add up.

Well, I guess no matter how old you get, there's always something to learn. That's the cool thing. You never stop learning and growing.

[walterpthefirst]

48 minutes ago, Weezer said:

Very true!  Even at my age and studying this stuff for 40 years, someone still occasionally mentions something I never heard or thought of before.  The bible is full of inconsistancies.  Things that just do not add up.

 

And this is the great divide, Weezer.

 

When people see that things in the bible do not add up they tend to react in different ways.

 

Some Christians rationalize this by invoking the limits of human understanding.  If something in the bible doesn't add up then the problem must lie with us and not with god.  They reject the possibility that an all-powerful and all-knowing god for which nothing is impossible can't easily overcome any faults or shortcomings in our understanding.  Instead they double down and assert that if people do not understand then this is just a question of sinful choice on their part.  These sinners could understand if they so chose. 

 

But when the Christians doing this asserting are called on the matter of understanding it is usually found that they don't actually understand the bible any better than anyone else.  Instead, what they are doing is simply believing without understanding, just as they are told to do in Proverbs 3 : 5 & 6.  That and excusing god and his word for not adding up.

 

Other Christians take a middle position, rationalizing that the bible doesn't add up by not treating it as gospel (pun intended) but as an incomplete puzzle that needs to be figured out. That way god is still perfect and faultless and once again the blame for our lack of understanding of the bible is down to us. 

 

And then there are the Christians who realize that the bible doesn't add up and who also realize that a perfect god wouldn't let his Word be so imperfect and difficult to understand.  They realize that a loving and just god wouldn't be so cruel as to let the ultimate fate of anyone rest on their figuring out an incomplete puzzle that doesn't add up.  They realize that the excuses some Christians make for god and for the bible are inexcusable.

 

These Christians ultimately go on to reject Jesus, god and the bible - because the bible doesn't add up.  Because the bible can't be squared with the evidence.  Because the bible shouldn't just be believed without understanding.  Because the answers and solutions given in the bible don't work.  Because these Christians are too honest with themselves to continue believing what is unbelievable to them.

 

They become... us. 

 

Ex-Christians.

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

[◊ Weezer ◊]

3 minutes ago, Casualfanboy16 said:

Well, I guess no matter how old you get, there's always something to learn. That's the cool thing. You never stop learning and growing.

The more you learn, the more you realize how much you do not know.  The older I get, the more open I am to possibilities.  Many, if not most, people eventually get settled into patterns of thinking, and ignore ideas they don't agree with.  They may leave Christianity, but settle into their new beliefs, and think there is nothing more to learn.  Their minds eye establishes limits. When that happens, stagnation sets in.  Have you noticed how my mention of ancient Sumerian writings above has been ignored?   

[◊ Weezer ◊]

1 hour ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

  Because the answers and solutions given in the bible don't work. 

 

You are making it an all or none proposition.  Not everthing is all right, or all wrong.  I agree the bible is a mismash of myth and junk put together by humans, but there is some valid truth that would benefit mankind, if people would listen.  Love neighbor as self is one.  

[Casualfanboy16]

5 minutes ago, Weezer said:

The more you learn, the more you realize how much you do not know.  The older I get, the more open I am to possibilities.  Many, if not most, people eventually get settled into patterns of thinking, and ignore ideas they don't agree with.  They may leave Christianity, but settle into their new beliefs, and think there is nothing more to learn.  Their minds eye establishes limits. When that happens, stagnation sets in.  Have you noticed how my mention of ancient Sumerian writings above has been ignored?   

I guess that's what it comes down to. I mean, there's always something you're not gonna know. Something more you can learn. I think it's important to challenge your beliefs often, to keep your mind open. I mean, I still have to actually do some digging on my own for stuff before I challenge anything and read the damned book again, but yeah.

 

Also, I'm gonna have to do some more research on those ancient Sumerian writings. Probably tomorrow. I can take some notes. I want to keep an open mind, but still gotta actually delve more into other stuff before I go back and challenge my beliefs.

[◊ Weezer ◊]

8 minutes ago, Casualfanboy16 said:

 

Also, I'm gonna have to do some more research on those ancient Sumerian writings. Probably tomorrow. I can take some notes. I want to keep an open mind, but still gotta actually delve more into other stuff before I go back and challenge my beliefs.

 

No need to delve into that right now.  To make a loonnng story short, it looks like biblical writers borrowed from ancient Sumerians when writing Genesis.  And there are huge questions as to where the "gods" came from that are subjects in the stories.  Are they pure fiction??

[Casualfanboy16]

11 minutes ago, Weezer said:

but there is some valid truth that would benefit mankind, if people would listen.  Love neighbor as self is one.  

Agreed. The Bible may be a mess of a book with some questionable and morally backwards stories and downright insane and violent acts, but there are nuggets of wisdom in there in between the gruesome bloodshed, outlandish events and outdated crap in there.

[older]

52 minutes ago, Weezer said:

You are making it an all or none proposition.  Not everthing is all right, or all wrong.  I agree the bible is a mismash of myth and junk put together by himans, but there is some valid truth that would benefit mankind, if people would listen.  Love neighbor as self is one.  

 

I'm reminded of a quote that is  probably mis-attributed to Gandhi: "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.” There are many good things in Christianity that are common to many other cultures and religions, but too many Christians claim exclusivity for these things and then fail to practice them. 

[walterpthefirst]

8 hours ago, Weezer said:

You are making it an all or none proposition.  Not everthing is all right, or all wrong.  I agree the bible is a mismash of myth and junk put together by humans, but there is some valid truth that would benefit mankind, if people would listen.  Love neighbor as self is one.  

 

My bad for not explaining what I meant here, Weezer.

 

The answers and solutions to sin and death given in the bible don't work.  Jesus is the biblical answer and solution to sin and death.  I put it in the plural because the bible repeats this claim so many times.  Sorry for not being clearer.

 

We know that the Genesis narrative cannot be reconciled with the evidence of the origin of the universe, the Earth and of human beings.  We also know from the bible itself that it was god himself who caused Adam and Eve to sin.  So, on those two counts Jesus is not the answer and solution to sin and death.  He was the cause.

 

That is what I was alluding to but in order to keep my post from being overlong I didn't go into this detail.  I agree that there is some (human, not divine) wisdom in the bible.  But that was not what I was referring to.

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

[pantheory]

On 9/8/2023 at 6:47 PM, DarkBishop said:

 

I bring it up because religious people deny it. They turn there eyes and act like it isn't true. Most deny the existence of all previous ancestors that led to Homosapiens. But they did exist. They were here. And they were not what God supposedly created in the bible. 

 

Therefore, they will not accept them as humans because they were more ape like. I would like one to watch this and explain using their bible how these beings existed at all in their small little bubble of belief. 

 

The reality is so much bigger and so much more fascinating. 

 

It's a pet peeve of mine because I was ignorant myself as a believer and preacher. Saying and truly believing that they had not found the missing link. But it just isn't true. They have! Lots of them. And Homo Naledi is probably one of the more interesting examples because of what looks like burial rituals. 

 

DB

 

Yeah DarkBishop,

 

At the African site you pointed out, there are many hundreds of individual human remains at just that one site  To be a denier of something like this  is almost  impossible when there are mountains of evidence and fact that very easily and certainly contradict your denial.

 

This was a very good choice of yours to contradict denying Christians. It's only 350,000 years old, where other sites of human remains of the genus homo are more than a million years old, some of which are outside of Africa, but most involve just a few human remains. But the quantity of skeletal remains at this site may be hundreds of times greater than any other anthropological site.

 

Since there are so many individual's remains involved, their hopes are that at least some DNA might be extracted from one or more individuals after maybe a decade more of study. Because of their time of existence, Homo Neledi may have existed at the same time as homo sapiens evolved. It is now known that several genus Homo lived at the same time as other human species, We know that Neanderthals and our species interbred and believe that we also interbred with Homo Denisovan also, and likely with Homo Erectus -- and probably others of the genus Homo, either known or unknown.

 

 

Depiction of Homo Neledi

 

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2017/may/23/homo-naledi-genome-will-we-ever-find-this-elusive-key-to-human-evolution