Homo Naledi

[TABA]

5 minutes ago, RankStranger said:

 

I really don't know if I was a 'real' atheist.  I don't know how one would define that, let alone prove it.

 

IMO only God could truly judge such a thing.  And whether or not it matters.

 

How would you define a 'real' atheist?

I’m inclined to defer to the person using the label:  you called yourself an atheist and evidently you did not believe in the god of the Bible, or any other god.  You walked and quacked like an atheist so I’d say you were one.  Now you call yourself a Christian and evidently you believe in God.  So I’d say your’e a Christian now.  
 

Does that seem reasonable?  
 

BTW if you believe only God could judge such a thing maybe you should only admit to being a theist, if even that?

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

19 hours ago, RankStranger said:

 

Sure, I wasn't clear.  

 

In my experience- and I've known more than enough Baptists in my time- people of that particular denomination are pretty quick to judge who is or isn't a Christian.   Not based on the beliefs and actions of the person in question, but based on their own limited notions of what it means to be a Christian.  You appear to be doing the same thing, even with a professed disbelief in Jesus.  Take the Jesus out of a Baptist, and apparently he's still a Baptist.

 

And to be fair, #NotAllBaptists.  My best friend from grade school is a Baptist.  My Mom is/was a Baptist.  There are a small minority of great people in the denomination.   Seeded in among that cesspool of self-worshiping idolatrous heathens.

 

IMO 

 

While I did start off Baptist. I ended up holiness and they are even more judgy so if you want to accuse me of having that type of mentality toward you go ahead. But you are mistaken. My assessment that you are not an authentic Christian is based on the fact that you do not align with ANY known Christian faith. You have developed your own beliefs and given it a Christian spin. Which in and of itself is against Christian beliefs based on the bible. 

 

2 Peter 1

19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

 

It isn't meant to be interpreted privately. Yet you have based your whole belief system around your own private interpretation. I'm sorry, I don't consider that authentic. 

 

My church taught that if there were any questions concerning scripture, or changes that a bishop thought needed to be made that, that person would preach what the Lord had given to him to the council. Which is a group of 12 elders. And they would pray, study, and seek the holy ghost. If that change or new doctrine was agreed on it would then be taught in all the churches. If not the bishop that brought it before them was forbidden to spread his beliefs to others or be removed from the church. 

 

We had a whole list of scriptures that we had to support that process. 

 

What you have is a personal belief based loosely on the teachings of Jesus that are found within the Bible. Most has been thrown out the window. And you claim to be a non-fundamentalist. There are whole denominations that are non-fundamentalist. Which one of those would agree with your personal beliefs in the Christian faith? 

 

Me personally, I think it is great that you have found happiness and gotten to connect to your "tribe". But you are not the normal Christian. And I think of it weren't for the perceived disconnect from your family and that you were never able to fill that void that you felt, that you probably would have never returned. 

 

Me on the otherhand. I'm figuring out other ways to fill that void. My parents still believe. But I don't really feel a disconnect. We still have a great relationship. It helps that they are once saved always saved believing baptists. So they will always believe that I will be in heaven. That's fine, but I will never be able to see the bible as anything more than an interesting ancient book of myths that a surprising number of people still believe in. 

 

My beliefs are probably not to far off from your core beliefs actually. I just don't put the biblical spin on them. I believe more in Karma. Do good, get good. Do bad, get bad. In most cases. But it certainly isn't across the board for everyone, good or bad. If there is a God it doesn't reflect the one described in the bible. I don't think it makes any major influence on humanity but more so gently guides humanity like a person working on a zen garden. Maybe makes a few small tweaks here or there. Cancer cured for whatever reason. Maybe by doing things like this the great people of the world like Martin Luther King Jr. Gandhi, or Chuck Norris come to be. And that is how he changes the world for the better? I have no idea the mind of God. But we all know that he was a little to obvious with Chuck Norris Being a modern day DemiGod and all!

 

Maybe it is just like what @Joshpanterabelieves. A conscious universe and we just call it God. Either way. I'm happy and at peace where I am spiritually. You call it Jesus, I call it the grand architect, He calls it the universe, and an athiest doesn't even acknowledge its existence. And honestly, either way if it is there, I don't think it cares. It is still gonna do what it does. Whatever that may or may not be. 

 

DB

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

18 hours ago, TABA said:

BTW if you believe only God could judge such a thing maybe you should only admit to being a theist, if even that?

I believe this is more accurate.

[RankStranger]

Well DB it's interesting how you as an 'atheist' believe so strongly in the Bible.  God will still be waiting for you if you find your way out of fundamentalism.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

16 minutes ago, RankStranger said:

Well DB it's interesting how you as an 'atheist' believe so strongly in the Bible.  God will still be waiting for you if you find your way out of fundamentalism.

I'm not atheist Rank. I prefer agnostic/non-theist. I actually do believe in something. Just not anything remotely close to the bible. 

 

In other words. There isn't even a non-fundamentalist church other than maybe the universalists I guess? That you could say you align with?

 

Why can't you just be happy for me in my beliefs like I'm happy for you that you found your compromise? The only stick here is you think you are an authentic Christian and I don't think you are. Christian, yes. But to be authentic? Nah.

 

You and I both know there is a lot of bible that you just don't believe in that an "authentic" Christian would believe in. Even from a non-fundamentalist standpoint. 

 

You can't just make up your own Christianity and call it "authentic". That is a cut, copy, and paste theology. 

 

Which is fine! Just not "Authentic". 

 

It's really not that big a deal that you aren't an "authentic" Christian by my definition. Its the all seeing, all knowing, impotent, and always absent asshole in the sky that you gotta please. 

 

And it isn't that I believe the bible. I think I've done fairly well showing how I don't believe in the bible. But I can't unknow everything I studied when I was a believer and preacher. What do you expect? I can counter almost any authentic believer with opposing doctrine to show them how the bible is a mixed bag of various ideologies. Or point out the obvious myths. And I also know how Christians are supposed to represent themselves and their beliefs when they come here. So far I've only seen one that was able to keep their demeanor when under fire. And that was Aik. Also there are those nasty little scriptures that no Christian really likes to think about when they think about their oh so loving and cuddly Saviour, Brother, Father, God. 

 

When I read the studies that Bart Ehrman offers. Or his podcasts. I can relate to everything he's talking about because I've read it all myself. And studied it out. I love those AHH HAA! Moments I get when he explains what was going on at the time something was written and it clicks that "wow, Ive always wandered why that was in there". Or "why it was worded that way". I think it is still interesting because of the historical impact it has had on humanity and also in my own life.

 

Understanding the truth of the Bible, the how's, and why's it was created. Also for what purposes, brings a whole new level of understanding that Church just can't offer. Listening to a sermon at church is just listening to some ignorant hillbilly like I was. Blindly believing and spreading what those above me had taught.

 

I'm on a different level of understanding now. Thankfully I've rose above believing in the biblical dogma. I kinda pity those that are trapped inside of a faith that at the root is very toxic. I wouldn't even want my dog feeling like I felt sometimes when I was a believer. Never being able to be "good enough". Or "worthy" of mercy and forgiveness. It is really a horrible message. 

 

My Christian past has helped to make my deconversion solid. After all, it was through biblical study and observation that I even began to question. 

 

DB

 

 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

Oh, and @RankStranger when I said I wasn't talking to you earlier. What I meant was this post isn't directed toward Christians that don't believe in a biblically standard religion. Not that I don't want to talk to you in general. This is just meant for the more traditional "authentic" believer. 

 

DB

[TABA]

24 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

the all seeing, all knowing, impotent, and always absent asshole in the sky

Thats the best one I’ve heard in quite a while.  In fact it made my day.  Preach it, Brother!

[RankStranger]

On 10/8/2023 at 3:01 PM, DarkBishop said:

I'm not atheist Rank. I prefer agnostic/non-theist. I actually do believe in something. Just not anything remotely close to the bible. 

 

In other words. There isn't even a non-fundamentalist church other than maybe the universalists I guess? That you could say you align with?

 

Why can't you just be happy for me in my beliefs like I'm happy for you that you found your compromise? The only stick here is you think you are an authentic Christian and I don't think you are. Christian, yes. But to be authentic? Nah.

 

You and I both know there is a lot of bible that you just don't believe in that an "authentic" Christian would believe in. Even from a non-fundamentalist standpoint. 

 

You can't just make up your own Christianity and call it "authentic". That is a cut, copy, and paste theology. 

 

Which is fine! Just not "Authentic". 

 

It's really not that big a deal that you aren't an "authentic" Christian by my definition. Its the all seeing, all knowing, impotent, and always absent asshole in the sky that you gotta please. 

 

And it isn't that I believe the bible. I think I've done fairly well showing how I don't believe in the bible. But I can't unknow everything I studied when I was a believer and preacher. What do you expect? I can counter almost any authentic believer with opposing doctrine to show them how the bible is a mixed bag of various ideologies. Or point out the obvious myths. And I also know how Christians are supposed to represent themselves and their beliefs when they come here. So far I've only seen one that was able to keep their demeanor when under fire. And that was Aik. Also there are those nasty little scriptures that no Christian really likes to think about when they think about their oh so loving and cuddly Saviour, Brother, Father, God. 

 

When I read the studies that Bart Ehrman offers. Or his podcasts. I can relate to everything he's talking about because I've read it all myself. And studied it out. I love those AHH HAA! Moments I get when he explains what was going on at the time something was written and it clicks that "wow, Ive always wandered why that was in there". Or "why it was worded that way". I think it is still interesting because of the historical impact it has had on humanity and also in my own life.

 

Understanding the truth of the Bible, the how's, and why's it was created. Also for what purposes, brings a whole new level of understanding that Church just can't offer. Listening to a sermon at church is just listening to some ignorant hillbilly like I was. Blindly believing and spreading what those above me had taught.

 

I'm on a different level of understanding now. Thankfully I've rose above believing in the biblical dogma. I kinda pity those that are trapped inside of a faith that at the root is very toxic. I wouldn't even want my dog feeling like I felt sometimes when I was a believer. Never being able to be "good enough". Or "worthy" of mercy and forgiveness. It is really a horrible message. 

 

My Christian past has helped to make my deconversion solid. After all, it was through biblical study and observation that I even began to question. 

 

DB

 

 

 

Meh... this argument seemed important a couple days ago.  Now it doesn't.

 

I'm happy for you, that you've found your way out of fundamentalism.  I'm authentically praying to Jesus for you right now 

[walterpthefirst]

On 10/8/2023 at 7:52 PM, RankStranger said:

Well DB it's interesting how you as an 'atheist' believe so strongly in the Bible.  God will still be waiting for you if you find your way out of fundamentalism.

 

 

Straw man argument.

 

 

It's quite clear that DB isn't any kind of fundamentalist.   When he makes 'fundamentalist' arguments based upon what the bible says he's doing so, not because he IS a fundamentalist but because he's showing that a fundamentalist understanding of scripture cannot possibly be true.  His 'fundamentalist' arguments are for the eyes of any Christian fundamentalists reading them.

 

I make the same kind of arguments using the principle of Devil's Advocate, taking the position of a fundamentalist believer and demonstrating from scripture that fundamentalist Christianity flies in the face of the evidence, contradicts itself and cannot be the literal truth that fundamentalist Christians believe it is.  

 

Does that therefore make a fundamentalist?   No.  Of course not.

 

 

I hope this clears up any misunderstandings about DB on your part, Rank.

[pantheory]

On 10/11/2023 at 1:05 PM, RankStranger said:

 

Meh... this argument seemed important a couple days ago.  Now it doesn't.

 

I'm happy for you, that you've found your way out of fundamentalism.  I'm authentically praying to Jesus for you right now 

 

howdy RankStranger,

 

I am what you might call a pure atheist. I believe all religions of the world and spiritual entities are 100% pure BS, with some valuable philosophical principles sometimes mixed in. My #1 moral code can be called the negative golden rule which goes like this:: Don't do unto others, as you would not want to have them negatively do unto you   -- as much peace and love as humanly reasonable for humans and most living creatures.  

 

 

 

[RankStranger]

8 hours ago, pantheory said:

 

howdy RankStranger,

 

I am what you might call a pure atheist. I believe all religions of the world and spiritual entities are 100% pure BS, with some valuable philosophical principles sometimes mixed in. My #1 moral code can be called the negative golden rule which goes like this:: Don't do unto others, as you would not want to have them negatively do unto you   -- as much peace and love as humanly reasonable for humans and most living creatures.  

 

 

 

 

Congrats on your... purity?

 

And thanks for not throwing a bunch of bible verses at me 

 

 

 

[pantheory]

On 10/13/2023 at 6:43 AM, RankStranger said:

 

Congrats on your... purity?

 

And thanks for not throwing a bunch of bible verses at me 

 

 

 

My atheist "purity" is not that important or merit a congrats, it's just another way of saying that I believe, like Charles Darwin did, that humans are just another form or type of animal. We accordingly are members of the biological family the  Great Apes. There are primarily three surviving members of this family more closely related to humans, and a great many other members of this family that have become extinct.

 

All surviving and extinct members of the Great Ape family are tailless and their classified family name in biology is called Hominidae.  The surviving members of this family more closely related to us are the Chimpanzees and Bonobos, other members being gorillas and orangutans. Humans are the only surviving members of our genus Homo. There have been many other members of the human genus Homo, including the most famous of which were the Homo Neandertales. Non-Africans today have up to 3% Neanderthal genes in them as I do.

 

We have found hundreds of skeletons of other members of our genus Homo, some millions of years old like Turkana Boy, as explained in this thread -- but Homo Naledi fossils, the subject of this thread, are only about four hundred thousand years old.

 

But we have hundreds of skeletons of this genus of Homo Naledi alone. besides the roughly hundred other genus Homo human skeletal remains we have other than Homo Sapiens.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

On 10/12/2023 at 6:47 AM, walterpthefirst said:

Does that therefore make a fundamentalist?   No.  Of course not.

This is true to my OP. It was directed to the many fundamentalists out there. I can't really make an argument with a Christian that just picks and chooses what they do and do not believe in the bible. I feel that kinda defeats the purpose of even being Christian. If your going to throw out half the bible why believe in any of it?

 

But maybe that is just me being "fundmentalist". Lol  

 

Mainly because I know that these people in ancient times and up until recent history believed it all as historical fact. And many still do today. 

 

So only believing parts of the Bible I feel is a fairly nuanced thing that Christians are coming up with because their Bible fails them at every turn to prove itself true. So they just take the bits n pieces that couldn't be proven false and roll with it. 

 

Anyway, I'm probably ruffling feathers talking about it. But that is the way I see it. 

 

DB

[TheRedneckProfessor]

1 hour ago, DarkBishop said:

I can't really make an argument with a Christian that just picks and chooses what they do and do not believe in the bible. I feel that kinda defeats the purpose of even being Christian

Every christian does this.  They have to, even to answer the most fundamental questions of salvation, vis a vis predestination or free will?  The extent to which, and how rigidly, it is done, is part of what separates the fundies from the posers.

 

I agree, though, there comes a point at which one has chucked enough of the scripture, doctrine, and ritual that there's really no point in calling oneself a "christian."  It's like calling yourself a "college student" but you never go to class or turn in any assignments; you just pledge a fraternity and listen to hipster shit on your Spotify.  

[walterpthefirst]

2 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

 

 

I agree, though, there comes a point at which one has chucked enough of the scripture, doctrine, and ritual that there's really no point in calling oneself a "christian."  It's like calling yourself a "college student" but you never go to class or turn in any assignments; you just pledge a fraternity and listen ti hipster shit on your Spotify.  

 

 

So, seeing as I attend church for family weddings and funerals I must therefore be...

 

 

 

...an Authentic Christian Believer!

 

 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

38 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

 

So, seeing as I attend church for family weddings and funerals I must therefore be...

 

 

 

...an Authentic Christian Believer!

 

 

 

Yeah, I voted once and now everybody refers to me as "Mr. President."

[◊ Weezer ◊]

I just started a new book that looks like it blows the doors off the idea of the bible being inerrant.  It is,  GODS OF THE BIBLE: A NEW INTERPRETATION OF THE BIBLE.........  By Mauro Biglino.  He has been a translator of ancient writing for the Vatican, but is doing his own thing now.  

[◊ Weezer ◊]

On 10/13/2023 at 8:38 PM, Weezer said:

I just started a new book that looks like it blows the doors off the idea of the bible being inerrant.  It is,  GODS OF THE BIBLE: A NEW INTERPRETATION OF THE BIBLE.........  By Mauro Biglino.  He has been a translator of ancient writing for the Vatican, but is doing his own thing now.  

 

This book indicates the Bible we have today, IS NOT an accurate representation of the original writings.  The book of Genesis was evidently lifted from, and revised, from ancient Sumerian writings, to indicate there was only one "god".  There actually were many "gods" and they were NOT in "spirit" form.  They were physical beings that evidently were similar looking to how humans are today, and somehow crafted or crossbred(?) (not created) humans to be their servants.

 

The book goes on to show that biblical angels were NOT spirits, they were physical beings who were very similar, but somehow different from normal people.  All the miracles, magic and spirit stuff was slipped into the bible through the ages, and a religion was built from it. 

 

You are right.  The bible does not "add up".  This book does not answer all the questions in the original post, but perhaps presents some possiblilies as to the evolution/development of present human beings on this earth.  Perhaps there are some solid physical and rational explanations we (and scientist) aren't even considering??

[Hierophant]

On 10/16/2023 at 3:57 PM, Weezer said:

 

This book indicates the Bible we have today, IS NOT an accurate representation of the original writings.  The book of Genesis was evidently lifted from, and revised, from ancient Sumerian writings, to indicate there was only one "god".  There actually were many "gods" and they were NOT in "spirit" form.  They were physical beings that evidently were similar looking to how humans are today, and somehow crafted or crossbred(?) (not created) humans to be their servants.

 

The book goes on to show that biblical angels were NOT spirits, they were physical beings who were very similar, but somehow different from normal people.  All the miracles, magic and spirit stuff was slipped into the bible through the ages, and a religion was built from it. 

 

You are right.  The bible does not "add up".  This book does not answer all the questions in the original post, but perhaps presents some possiblilies as to the evolution/development of present human beings on this earth.  Perhaps there are some solid physical and rational explanations we (and scientist) aren't even considering??

 

I think you would like Francesca Stravakapoulu's book God: An Anatomy. She goes through the Bible and describes how ancient Hebrews saw Yahweh as a corporeal deity. As you said, later theology turned God into some kind of spirit being.