Is Santa A Primer For Blind Belief?

May 19, 2006

Rev, you're a smart guy, but this is a very dumb thread.

As a father of two I find it extremely important. Perhaps you have no problem with boldfaced lying to children, but I do. Perhaps it's ok to you to set up a false worldview in a young child's mind, but it's not for me. Perhaps you have no problem with the many links back to Jeebus and SkyDaddy, but I do.

You say that "there's nothing remotely "dangerous" about the Santa myth." I vehemently disagree and offer this page to get my point across:

http://atheism.about.com/od/christmasholid...p/SantaMyth.htm

Santa Claus: Should Parents Perpetuate the Santa Claus Myth?

Christmas

Problems with the Santa Claus Myth:

Although Santa Claus was originally based upon the Christian figure of Saint Nicholas, a patron saint of children, today Santa Claus is wholly secular. Some Christians object to him because he is secular rather than Christian; some non-Christians object to him because of his Christian roots. He is a powerful cultural symbol which is impossible to ignore, but this doesn’t mean that he should simply be accepted without question. There are good reasons to dispense with the tradition.

Parents Have to Lie About Santa Claus:

Perhaps the most serious objection to perpetuating belief in Santa Claus among children is also the simplest: in order to do so, parents have to lie to their children. You can’t encourage the belief without dishonesty, and it’s not a “little white lie” that is for their own good or that might protect them from harm. Parents should not persistently lie to children without overwhelmingly good reasons, so this puts supporters of the Santa Claus myth on the defensive.

Parents’ Lies About Santa Claus Have to Grow:

In order to get kids to believe in Santa Claus, it’s not enough to commit a couple of simple lies and move on. As with any lie, it’s necessary to construct more and more elaborate lies and defenses as time passes. Skeptical questions about Santa must be met with detailed lies about Santa’s powers. “Evidence” of Santa Claus must be created once mere stories of Santa prove insufficient. It’s unethical for parents to perpetuate elaborate deceptions on children unless it’s for a greater good.

Santa Claus Lies Discourage Healthy Skepticism:

Most children eventually become skeptical about Santa Claus and ask questions about him, for example how he could possibly travel around the whole world in such a short period of time. Instead of encouraging this skepticism and helping children come to a reasonable conclusion about whether Santa Claus is even possible, much less real, most parents discourage skepticism by telling tales about Santa’s supernatural powers.

The Reward & Punishment System of Santa Claus is Unjust:

There are a number of aspects to the whole Santa Claus “system” which children shouldn’t learn to internalize. It implies that the whole person can be judged as naughty or nice based upon a few acts. It requires belief that someone is constantly watching you, no matter what you are doing. It is based upon the premise that one should do good for the sake of reward and avoid doing wrong out of fear of punishment. It allows parents to try to control children via a powerful stranger.

The Santa Claus Myth Promotes Materialism:

The entire Santa Claus myth is based on the idea of children getting gifts. There’s nothing wrong with getting gifts, but Santa Claus makes it the focus on the entire holiday. Children are encouraged to conform their behavior to parental expectation in order to receive ever more presents rather than simply lumps of coal. In order to make Christmas lists, kids pay close attention to what advertisers tell them they should want, effectively encouraging unbridled consumerism.

Santa Claus is Too Similar to Jesus and God:

The parallels between Santa Claus and Jesus or God are numerous. Santa Claus is a nearly all-powerful, supernatural person who dispenses rewards and punishment to people all over the world based upon whether they adhere to a pre-defined code of conduct. His existence is implausible or impossible, but faith is expected if one is to receive the rewards. Believers should regard this as blasphemous; non-believers shouldn’t want their kids prepared in this way to adopt Christianity or theism.

The Santa Claus “Tradition” is Relatively Recent:

Some might think that because Santa Claus is such an old tradition, this alone is sufficient reason to continue it. They were taught to believe in Santa as children, so why not pass this along to their own? The role of Santa Claus in Christmas celebration is actually quite recent — the mid to late 19th century. The importance of Santa Claus is a creation of cultural elites and perpetuated by business interests and simple cultural momentum. It has little to no inherent value.

Santa Claus is More About Parents than Children:

Parental investment in Santa Claus is far larger than anything kids do, suggesting that parents’ defense of the Santa Claus myth is more about what they want than about what kids want. Their own memories about enjoying Santa may be heavily influenced by cultural assumptions about what they should have experienced. Is it not possible that kids would find at least as much pleasure in knowing that parents are responsible for Christmas, not a supernatural stranger?

The Future of Santa Claus:

Santa Claus symbolizes Christmas and perhaps the entire winter holiday season like nothing else. An argument can be made for the importance of the Christmas tree as a symbol for Christmas (notice that there are no Christian images which come close), but Santa Claus personifies Christmas in a way that trees cannot. Santa Claus is, furthermore, a very secular character by now which allows him to cross cultural and religious lines, placing him in an important position for the entire season rather than for Christmas alone.

Because of this, it’s plausible that giving up on Santa Claus will mean abandoning much of the Christmas holidays altogether — and perhaps that’s not such a bad thing. There’s a lot to be said for Christians dismissing the consumerist, commercialized Christmas of America and focusing instead on the Nativity of Jesus. Ignoring Santa Claus would symbolize this choice. There’s a lot to be said for adherents of other religions refusing to allow Santa Claus to become part of their own traditions, representing an intrusion of Western culture into their own.

Finally, there’s also a lot to be said for nonbelievers of various sorts — humanists, atheists, skeptics, and freethinkers — refusing to be co-opted into a religious observance. Whether Santa Claus in particular or Christmas in general is treated as defined by Christian or pagan religious traditions, neither are religions which nonbelievers are part of. Christmas and Santa Claus have strong secular elements, but those are primarily commercial — and who is going to invest themselves in a holidayall about commerce and who can spend the most money on credit?

The future of Santa Claus will depend on whether people will care enough to do anything — if not, things will continue on the same course they have been on. If people care not to be taken over, borg-like, by America’s Christmas, resistance may reduce Santa’s status as a cultural icon.

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I really don't mind being compared to fundies or called one. I've always admired their passion. I dislike what they preach about, but man, that fire! That zeal! I'm not saying Atheists should mobilize with violence, I'm pretty pacifistic apart from my words, but if just half of the current population of unbelievers had the determination they had, there'd be a lot more of us today!

So many Atheists are closeted and scared. I don't blame them. I get scared, too. But we're fighting for a better world for our children as well as ourselves. The first step for a positive change to take place, just like with the homosexual community, is for more of us to come out. When people realize that the people they've known and liked are actually the same unbelievers that have been so maligned and demonized, it's a wake up call. To actually know us defeats this stereotype.

May 19, 2006

I hate to sound like a Negative Nancy, but that article isn't evidence. It'd be like me going to the website of the National Alliance, finding one of their articles about how the Jews supposedly have it in for the White race, and use that as evidence that the Jews are guilty as charged. There may be a few bits of truth, but overall mostly just hype, bullshit, and ancient prejudices being fantasized into reality. Of course I'd expect a hardcore Atheist to have a fit about Santa; in the Atheist's mind, it's all a part of Xianity. But ask any hardcore fundy - Jeezus is the reason for the season, not Santa. Ask the genuinely dangerous fundies, the ones who teach the genuinely dangerous bold-faced lies about an evil god and his lake of fire, the ones who ban Xmas trees and secular Xmas songs and Xmas stockings, and they'll tell you that Santa is no more Xian than a Tiki head.

The above article seems much the same to me. It makes me think of the example I used earlier of Xian fundies crusading against Halloween. Just people going off on a non-issue. Until I see some real studies indicating a widespread and actual danger directly related to the Santa myth, I refuse to believe it is anymore dangerous than a glass of water.

You make a good argument, Rev, but it'd only hold water if the Santa myth were already known to be a widespread danger. Since it is not, and there is no evidence to suggest so, I must respectfully disagree.

By the way, imitating the passion of a fundy only unbalances your thinking and can lead you to become a bigger pain in the ass than most fundy Xians. I know - I went down that road once upon a time. Be careful who you admire.

May 19, 2006

Ask my wife, I am an Atheist fundy.....

Yes, that much is quite clear. And, sorry, you're beginning to be

almost as tiresome as the christian ones. What percentage of

children who believe in Santa Claus do you really think will grow

up to be Christians? Do you have proof of this? Your argument

almost sounds like the fundy christian argument, that everyone

who looks at porn will end up raping women. Yeah, sure, right....

I don't begrudge you your right to raise your kids the way you

best see fit, and I really see no reason why an atheist should

induce his or her kids to believe in Santa Claus. However, your

position strikes me as being a bit petty and rigid. I think there

are bigger problems in this world than children believing in

Santa.

Since the children in question here are mine (at least half) I thought I should chime in.

My husband may have some extreme views, but he makes some very good points. Is there proof that Santa believers become Christians? Maybe not directly but indirectly there is. Just look at the number of believers. Christianity is the majority, and the majority of Christians take the Santa myth to a whole new level.

As far as our children, we've talked about this and we agreed that our children will know what others believe and they will know what we believe. We gave them the actual sorry of "Santa" and our 4 year old has developed his own conclusion from that. We don't celebrate xmas. We do however, go to our Christian families houses and open gifts. We honor their holiday with being there and celebrating with them. We don't put an xmas tree up, but we do put a solstice tree up and lights.

I grew up in a totally fundy Christian house. They did their hardest to make me believe in Santa. The problem is I've always been a skeptic. Even as a child I questioned what they said. I put two and two together really quickly. However, I kept my mouth shut. My sister went on believing, I'm not sure when she stopped. I've explained to my son that people believe in different things. He seems to understand so far.

If you pick up a book on child development you'll find that between the ages of 0 to ten are the most critical of time for the brain. This is what determines what kind of adult the child will be. Of course you cannot stop nor help that the child is going to learn your behavior. The only thing you can do is try and change it.

So what am I teaching my children? I'm teaching them that people believe in things like god, Santa, elves, devils, fairies, ghosts, mermaids and so on. These all have stories behind them, and most of the stories are very good, but it doesn't mean these things exist nor does it mean we have to believe in them.

I'm not going to cater to a Santa myth. I will not promote it nor will I promote any other myth. Not because I believe this will make my child a Christian, I know better than that, but because it helps teach a child to believe unconditionally, blindly. I want to promote questioning and exploring. I want my children to dig deeper and find more information before they make judgments.

So, my reason for not promoting such things, I'm promoting something else and Santa contradicts what I'm promoting.

Btw, my children know all about magic. They love it and the pretend all the time. Knowing that Santa is really based on a story of a man who lived almost a thousand years ago, a monk who did good deeds, doesn't seem to have blemished their fun in pretending. Their imaginations work very well.

I agree; there's nothing remotely "dangerous" about the Santa myth and no evidence to suggest there is.

And this is exactly like Xian fundies ranting and raving about the imaginary dangers of Halloween. The similarities between this thread and Xian fundygelical sermons are strong, to me. It all stems from people getting uptight about things that do not matter.

And it's usually the same fundies who are against the Santa myth because they recognize it for what it is - a non-Babblical, non-Xian addition to the Xmas season.

Rev, you're a smart guy, but this is a very dumb thread.

The dangerous part would be that it promotes a particular way of thinking plus the age of the child. Forget that you are talking just about the myth and think about how the brain is formed. The stages it goes though and what this means to a child.

I personally love Halloween. Of course, it's mostly about dressing up for me. But I make it a point to teach my children about the holiday and it's history. Why? Because it's important to know the facts. Knowledge is power. I also make it a point to informed them of why mommy likes Halloween.

Why exactly is it dumb to talk about myths?

But arguing

from personal experience doesn't really prove the point, one way or

another.

It proves one point: yours.

May 19, 2006

I hate to sound like a Negative Nancy, but that article isn't evidence.

It may not be the evidence of Santa belief turning Atheist kids into Christians that you want me to provide, but it is evidence that there are dangerous aspects to be found within this pseudo-religion. I can provide evidence that lying to children is harmful, if you want, though. But I thought that was common sense.

May 19, 2006

Consider this....

Research studies consistently find that the first three years of life are critical to the emotional and intellectual development of a child. During these early years, 75 percent of brain growth is completed.

The effects of this emotional and intellectual development will not be seen, in many cases, until your child reaches the third or fourth grade.

But what you do now will greatly affect whether your child is ready to learn when he or she enters school.

Consider this....

A child who is held and nurtured in a time of stress is less likely to respond with violence later.

A child who is read to has a much better chance of becoming a reader.

A child whose curiosity is encouraged has a better chance to become a lifetime learner.

Now consider this...

Santa is a magical being who brings gifts to children who are good. He watches you all the time and has a list of names. If you don't believe in him you get no gifts. If you believe in him wihout a doubt you get more gifts.

What do you think this teaches?

There is however, another story. One that is often left out on xmas.

May 19, 2006

Why exactly is it dumb to talk about myths?

It's not - I said it's dumb to make a big deal out of nothing, which is what seems to me is happening here. Myths can be fun

I hate to sound like a Negative Nancy, but that article isn't evidence.

It may not be the evidence of Santa belief turning Atheist kids into Christians that you want me to provide, but it is evidence that there are dangerous aspects to be found within this pseudo-religion. I can provide evidence that lying to children is harmful, if you want, though. But I thought that was common sense.

Of course lying to children can be harmful, but telling the conventional Santa stories hasn't proven to be harmful. It doesn't turn anyone into a Xian; in all my years as a Xian, I never saw one conversion story with Santa playing a major or minor role. Santa is a wholly secular figure with some loose basis in an ancient Xian monk. That would be a worse conversion tool than Xian Rock music, and at least that's marginally effective.

Have you actually seen Xians try to use Santa as a recruitment tool? I could use a good laugh

Consider this....

Research studies consistently find that the first three years of life are critical to the emotional and intellectual development of a child. During these early years, 75 percent of brain growth is completed.

The effects of this emotional and intellectual development will not be seen, in many cases, until your child reaches the third or fourth grade.

But what you do now will greatly affect whether your child is ready to learn when he or she enters school.

Consider this....

A child who is held and nurtured in a time of stress is less likely to respond with violence later.

A child who is read to has a much better chance of becoming a reader.

A child whose curiosity is encouraged has a better chance to become a lifetime learner.

I agree wholly. Serious stuff has serious consequences. Show children love, they learn to love. Show children hate, they learn to hate. But the key word is seriousness, which leads me to...

Now consider this...

Santa is a magical being who brings gifts to children who are good. He watches you all the time and has a list of names. If you don't believe in him you get no gifts. If you believe in him wihout a doubt you get more gifts.

What do you think this teaches?

Nothing.

I think it genuinely teaches children nothing. The Santa myth is too weak, without any real psychological "meat" to make it impact the "believer" as deeply as, say, the Hell myth of Xianity. The Hell myth is a very powerful one, even when taught to little children. The grandiose scale of the myth and the alledged consequences sin has can be devestating. Even little kids can tremble in fear of this.

But there's no real fear engendered by the Santa myth. So you're bad and you don't get any presents. Mommy and Daddy raise them with that concept year-round; you're good, you get a reward. You're bad, you get punished. The Santa myth is more of an extension of that into the realm of make-believe, the realm of Cinderella and Snow White. The Santa myth is taught with all the substance and seriousness as the Three Bears, except that parents tell their kids right off that the Three Bears is only a story. But they don't hold back when the kids get too old to believe in Santa, which brings me to another point...

Kids like growing up. Even though they love to have fun and be kids, there's an inborn desire in most kids to be like the big boys and girls - who don't believe in Santa. After a few years, the kids who don't believe in Santa anymore tend to boast of it some, and this makes them seem a little older to the others. They eventually want to emulate this behavior, and they question the Santa myth. If they ask their parents questions, the parents will usually respond factually, since parents with their heads screwed on straight will not keep them believing in kindergarten fantasies anymore. That's for little kids. The Santa myth may encourage kids to question things, and indeed the whole process of "figuring out Santa isn't real" gives them a sense of growing up, of achievement. Of course, that can be provided in other ways, but the side effect in most kids is undeniable. It was like that for myself and the kids I knew growing up, for instance, and I've observed similar trends in other familes with little ones. The Santa myth is fun when they're young, they always end up questioning it, and their curious natures combined with their desire to grow up and be like the big kids only helps that along.

Yes, it can engender negative things like greed and selfishness, but I've only observed that happen, for the most part, in families where such things are exposed to their children anyway. In families where the parents behave in a base, selfish, greedy fashion, it rubs off on the kids. Families that behave with more dignity and try to teach their kids similar values end up with kids who, even though they want to be good for Santa, try to be good anyway. Kids that take the Santa thing too far and hang on getting objects every year from him are usually kids who are selfish, wanting everything they see in the stores, and often times getting it from the parents who spoil them or otherwise don't pay any mind to how they are influencing their children.

All that said, I don't see the Santa myth as a problem. Most kids who buy into it turn out just fine, and their moral development is influenced more by things that happen consistently, year round. Xmas, being a holiday and as such not a customary, everyday thing, just reflects how people behave throughout the year. The greedy act more greedy and the kindly act more kindly. Holidays are often a magnifying glass in which people are exaggerated and seen for what they are. Kind or selfish, it all comes out on the holidays - and that dictates more how kids respond to the Santa myth far more than the vague and all-too-distant similarities to some points of Xian theology.

May 19, 2006

Of course lying to children can be harmful, but telling the conventional Santa stories hasn't proven to be harmful. It doesn't turn anyone into a Xian; in all my years as a Xian, I never saw one conversion story with Santa playing a major or minor role. Santa is a wholly secular figure with some loose basis in an ancient Xian monk. That would be a worse conversion tool than Xian Rock music, and at least that's marginally effective.

If lying to children can be harmful, in fact lying so big as to create an entirely different world, then promoting Santaism is definitely harmful. It just seems to me that too many people gloss over the fact that parents will lie and lie and lie to keep this myth alive. I remember my parents did. They put on the biggest show. I swallowed it and it had a much better feel to it than Christianity ever did! That's why the instant deconversion was so painful. He was real to me. Magic was real to me. Flying was possible! Elves were real! And then it all shattered with a bullet hole to Santa's head -- and he was gone like he never was.

Does this not strike anyone as terribly wrong; a horrible example of how a parent should act in front of his child? Why is it ok to take advantage of a young mind like this?

May 19, 2006

If lying to children can be harmful, in fact lying so big as to create an entirely different world, then promoting Santaism is definitely harmful. It just seems to me that too many people gloss over the fact that parents will lie and lie and lie to keep this myth alive. I remember my parents did. They put on the biggest show. I swallowed it and it had a much better feel to it than Christianity ever did! That's why the instant deconversion was so painful. He was real to me. Magic was real to me. Flying was possible! Elves were real! And then it all shattered with a bullet hole to Santa's head -- and he was gone like he never was.

Does this not strike anyone as terribly wrong; a horrible example of how a parent should act in front of his child? Why is it ok to take advantage of a young mind like this?

With respect, perhaps your parents were just dicks in this regard?

In all seriousness, it's not so much the myth here but how they treated it. Do I recall correctly that you said earlier that your folks were fundies? Obviously they weren't so far fundy as to ban all Xmas stuff that wasn't about Baby Jeezus and his shitless diapers, but bad enough. Maybe most of your own problems with the normally-harmless Santa myth were a result of your parents hammering home whatever they wanted?

Honestly, to cite a singular story like yours, while not excuseable on your parents' behalf, is painting with too broad a brush. I might as well castigate all Blacks for the criminal actions of a few hundred or thousand gangbangers and wannabe gangbangers, for example. Unilaterally condemning the Santa myth and accusing those who tell it of horrific lying bordering on child abuse is extreme and inaccurate. Unless/until it can be proven that the Santa myth is a direct cause of harm to children, then you really can't say that it is.

Also, and again with respect, you took it very seriously. In a way, you're still taking it too seriously, just in the opposite extreme. It seems to me your overall problem is with taking something too seriously, but that's precisely what's happening here. Just consider that you're still putting too much stock in the Santa myth, just in regards to something different.

May 19, 2006

Nothing.

I think it genuinely teaches children nothing. The Santa myth is too weak, without any real psychological "meat" to make it impact the "believer" as deeply as, say, the Hell myth of Xianity. The Hell myth is a very powerful one, even when taught to little children. The grandiose scale of the myth and the alledged consequences sin has can be devestating. Even little kids can tremble in fear of this.

Of course it teaches something. It may not be as serious as my husband feels it is, but his feelings have a lot to do with his personal experience.

But there's no real fear engendered by the Santa myth. So you're bad and you don't get any presents. Mommy and Daddy raise them with that concept year-round; you're good, you get a reward. You're bad, you get punished. The Santa myth is more of an extension of that into the realm of make-believe, the realm of Cinderella and Snow White. The Santa myth is taught with all the substance and seriousness as the Three Bears, except that parents tell their kids right off that the Three Bears is only a story. But they don't hold back when the kids get too old to believe in Santa, which brings me to another point...

I read my son the story of Hansel and Gretel and you should have seen the look on his face. Now, remember he's only 4. I thought this story would be good for him since it's got a pretty good moral, so I read it to him. The boy was horrified. The fact is, the simple things that you and I find fearless, children like my son find extremely fearful. Did you know that the part of the brain that is active during a traumatic experience is active when a child, like my son, is watching a horror movie? A simple concept like Santa can turn into a traumatic experience as evidence by my husband's experience.

Is it like this for all children? Of course not.

Kids like growing up. Even though they love to have fun and be kids, there's an inborn desire in most kids to be like the big boys and girls - who don't believe in Santa. After a few years, the kids who don't believe in Santa anymore tend to boast of it some, and this makes them seem a little older to the others. They eventually want to emulate this behavior, and they question the Santa myth. If they ask their parents questions, the parents will usually respond factually, since parents with their heads screwed on straight will not keep them believing in kindergarten fantasies anymore. That's for little kids. The Santa myth may encourage kids to question things, and indeed the whole process of "figuring out Santa isn't real" gives them a sense of growing up, of achievement. Of course, that can be provided in other ways, but the side effect in most kids is undeniable. It was like that for myself and the kids I knew growing up, for instance, and I've observed similar trends in other families with little ones. The Santa myth is fun when they're young, they always end up questioning it, and their curious natures combined with their desire to grow up and be like the big kids only helps that along.

Good point. This would be another strike against the Santa myth. I think this would be the same point my husband made. Parents take away the Santa myth because of "growing up." Betrayal by your parents.

Yes, it can engender negative things like greed and selfishness, but I've only observed that happen, for the most part, in families where such things are exposed to their children anyway. In families where the parents behave in a base, selfish, greedy fashion, it rubs off on the kids. Families that behave with more dignity and try to teach their kids similar values end up with kids who, even though they want to be good for Santa, try to be good anyway. Kids that take the Santa thing too far and hang on getting objects every year from him are usually kids who are selfish, wanting everything they see in the stores, and often times getting it from the parents who spoil them or otherwise don't pay any mind to how they are influencing their children.

A dime a dozen. Yes, many factors are to be considered.

All that said, I don't see the Santa myth as a problem. Most kids who buy into it turn out just fine, and their moral development is influenced more by things that happen consistently, year round. Xmas, being a holiday and as such not a customary, everyday thing, just reflects how people behave throughout the year. The greedy act more greedy and the kindly act more kindly. Holidays are often a magnifying glass in which people are exaggerated and seen for what they are. Kind or selfish, it all comes out on the holidays - and that dictates more how kids respond to the Santa myth far more than the vague and all-too-distant similarities to some points of Xian theology.

How do you know this? I think the fact that there are so many people who depend on a god to get them though every day situations shows that most people are not "just fine." Frontal lobe damage has been directly related to religious beliefs and how far people take them.

The danger is in pushing children to believe so deeply. When a child says "there's a monster under my bed," most parents react by saying, "there are no such things as monsters." Why not just buy into it and promote it? It would be the same as promoting a magical Santa.

The biggest problem I have with the Santa myth is that there is a real person who the myth is based on. Why not tell the truth? Why not give your child a little piece of history instead of pushing a belief on them?

May 19, 2006

OK, when I started this thread, I didn't mean to imply that the SANTA myth itself could turn children into xtians, or anything of the sort. We can take Santa off the table completely, and subsitute any mytholigical idea that requires adults to lie to a child. The implication I see is not that it will turn non-religious children into xtians later in life, but that it will allow children, at that critical time in brain development, to believe that anything can happen , no matter how crazy it may seem. I was devestated when I learned the truth, and I think it is a big reason I have alot of animosity twords the church. Its another lie I was told as a kid, but this one is powerful enough to keep adults locked in as well.

To all those people who think Santa is not a big deal, I'd like to remind you children DO NOT percieve the world the way adults do. During the news coverage of 9/11, I remember hearing about many children who were freaking out because they thought each time the news replayed the towers crashing down, it was another building being attacked. They did not have the ability to discern a video playback from live coverage.

As Athiestmommy wrote, the time period we teach children about Santa is the same time their brain is developing the critical thinking, and what happens to them during this period, including proper nutrition, is vitally important to their proper development into adults. Why would anyone want to lie to their child just to have fun watching their pliable minds soak up obvious lies? Whether or not the myth itself is harmful, don't you think it will confuse your child? Is confusion a good thing to expose your children to, especially when YOU are the one contributing to the confusion? I took alot of what my parents told me with a grain of salt after my Santa de-conversion. If they would lie to me about Santa, what else would they lie about? Alcohol? Drugs? Sex? "They just want me to do what they want, and they're willing to lie to me in order to get me to do it, I don't believe them." That's what I thought all throughout my adolecence. The fact I was also discovering the church deception at the same time only made my position stronger in my mind.

I'm a musician/artist, and I'll admit I can be a bit emotionally sensitive to things, and many have told me I take things too personally. But I was crushed when I learned about Santa, but what made it worse, is that my parents then forced me to lie to my sister for another 6 YEARS so it wouldn't be spoiled for her. I felt incredibly guilty having to continue this lie. Although I was at first crushed, I soon thought I was the holder of a secret truth, and that truth must be told to everyone. I was prevented from speaking the truth to my sister and other friends because the grown ups wanted to keep a lie in place.

Other than the parents own desires, I see no need to lie to children at all. Xmas is just as magical to a child without Santa, because to the child it is about GIFTS, and nothing more.

May 19, 2006

Of course it teaches something. It may not be as serious as my husband feels it is, but his feelings have a lot to do with his personal experience.

Then it's his parents' fault for pushing it so hard, and his fault for taking it too seriously. Personal experience doesn't add up to hard evidence.

I read my son the story of Hansel and Gretel and you should have seen the look on his face. Now, remember he's only 4. I thought this story would be good for him since it's got a pretty good moral, so I read it to him. The boy was horrified. The fact is, the simple things that you and I find fearless, children like my son find extremely fearful. Did you know that the part of the brain that is active during a traumatic experience is active when a child, like my son, is watching a horror movie? A simple concept like Santa can turn into a traumatic experience as evidence by my husband's experience.

Is it like this for all children? Of course not.

Exactly - children aren't all the same. Most are more resilient than we give them credit for. Only a minority of children would be freaked out by Hansel and Gretel; I had no problem with it. I had no problem with any fairy tale or kid's story. No one I knew did, either.

And children obviously shouldn't be watching horror movies. That's too heavy for little minds. Santa and horror movies are apples and oranges.

Good point. This would be another strike against the Santa myth. I think this would be the same point my husband made. Parents take away the Santa myth because of "growing up." Betrayal by your parents.

Betrayal? Come on, now. It's no more betrayal than sending them off to school when they want to stay home and they cry all the way there. Again, the facts are most kids deal rather well with the Santa myth.

A dime a dozen. Yes, many factors are to be considered.

Yes - anyone who thinks one little story about a fat man who gives out presents to good children as being a dangerous thing isn't considering all factors. The environment kids grow up on year-round is more influential than a myth told once a year.

How do you know this?

Observation.

I think the fact that there are so many people who depend on a god to get them though every day situations shows that most people are not "just fine." Frontal lobe damage has been directly related to religious beliefs and how far people take them.

Do most people really depend on a god, or do they just mouth what they've been brought up to believe? I think less people are as fanatically Xian as most folks on this board seem to think.

The danger is in pushing children to believe so deeply. When a child says "there's a monster under my bed," most parents react by saying, "there are no such things as monsters." Why not just buy into it and promote it? It would be the same as promoting a magical Santa.

Yes, there is a definite danger in pushing kids too hard to believe in things. Parents who do that are acting foolishly. It's as if they think believing in the Santa myth will make them better. That's just as harmful as believing that the Santa myth will make them worse. All things like the Easter Bunny and Santa should be are things parents tell the kids (if they want to, of course) and let the kids have fun with it if they like. Pushing a non-issue like that is never good.

Then again, parents tell their kids there are no monsters under the bed because belief in monsters under the bed is an unhealthy paranoia, as well as being unreal. Santa may not be real, but kids believing in him doesn't engender paranoia.

The biggest problem I have with the Santa myth is that there is a real person who the myth is based on. Why not tell the truth? Why not give your child a little piece of history instead of pushing a belief on them?

Either choice is fine, ultimately. But acting as if one path or the other must be dogmatically taken because otherwise dreadful consequences will occur with total certainty is the problem. There's no evidence the Santa myth unilaterally causes harm to children, and as many people here have said, it can actually be a fun and harmless thing.

To all those people who think Santa is not a big deal, I'd like to remind you children DO NOT percieve the world the way adults do. During the news coverage of 9/11, I remember hearing about many children who were freaking out because they thought each time the news replayed the towers crashing down, it was another building being attacked. They did not have the ability to discern a video playback from live coverage.

Apple and oranges. Footage of a real-world disaster doesn't have anything in common with a myth no one can see with their eyes, especially one that doesn't involve death and suffering.

As Athiestmommy wrote, the time period we teach children about Santa is the same time their brain is developing the critical thinking, and what happens to them during this period, including proper nutrition, is vitally important to their proper development into adults. Why would anyone want to lie to their child just to have fun watching their pliable minds soak up obvious lies?

We could make the same argument for any nursery rhyme or children's story. Why tell them to the kiddies if we know they aren't real and factual? Even though most parents tell them Santa is real whereas they don't promote Snow White as having really existed, still, why tell them at all if there's no realistic basis behind them?

Answer: it's a non-issue.

Whether or not the myth itself is harmful, don't you think it will confuse your child? Is confusion a good thing to expose your children to, especially when YOU are the one contributing to the confusion? I took alot of what my parents told me with a grain of salt after my Santa de-conversion. If they would lie to me about Santa, what else would they lie about? Alcohol? Drugs? Sex? "They just want me to do what they want, and they're willing to lie to me in order to get me to do it, I don't believe them." That's what I thought all throughout my adolecence. The fact I was also discovering the church deception at the same time only made my position stronger in my mind.

With respect, that's paranoid. Anyone who would think their parents would lie to them about booze and dope just because they made up Santa Claus really needs to chill out.

I'm a musician/artist, and I'll admit I can be a bit emotionally sensitive to things, and many have told me I take things too personally. But I was crushed when I learned about Santa, but what made it worse, is that my parents then forced me to lie to my sister for another 6 YEARS so it wouldn't be spoiled for her. I felt incredibly guilty having to continue this lie. Although I was at first crushed, I soon thought I was the holder of a secret truth, and that truth must be told to everyone. I was prevented from speaking the truth to my sister and other friends because the grown ups wanted to keep a lie in place.

Again, with respect, you do seem to take things too seriously. Santa is a non-issue and nothing exists to evidence otherwise. I really don't see what the big deal is.

Other than the parents own desires, I see no need to lie to children at all. Xmas is just as magical to a child without Santa, because to the child it is about GIFTS, and nothing more.

Agreed - the holidays are fun for the kids because of all the parties and gifts. But one day, we tell them that the holidays are more than just parties and gifts (family, togetherness, etc). Is that "betrayal" or do parents "lie" to their kids because they don't teach them immediately that the holidays aren't all about them and what they can get? Granted, that's not a bad thing to do in theory, and I'm sure it can be done in a way kids would understand, but if parents are horrible liars for telling kids about Santa, then aren't they liars even more so for letting them have too much fun with gift-getting?

(Edit: WTF is with the board not accepting quote formatting sometimes?)

May 19, 2006

Well, this thread has grown quite long since I last visited it, so

I think I'll refrain from quoting, and just make a few general points.

First, I'm not attacking anyone for raising their children without a

belief in Santa; the tone in some of the responses to my last post

seemed to imply that I was. If anyone wants to be "extra, extra

careful" about how they raise their kids, fine. That's their

prerogative as a parent.

I was more interested in just the general assertion, that somehow

"Santaism" is dangerous. (Jeez, did we have to invent an "ism" for

this? Sorry, even that strikes me as being a bit silly.) So far, what

I have seen presented are general assertions based mostly on personal

experience. While this makes the case that some kids could

be emotionally crushed by finding out that Santa is just a fairy tale,

it doesn't make the case that so many kids are crushed by it that we

should treat this as some sort of horrible plague. Making this

assertion based on personal experience alone is like arguing that all

peanuts should be banned from the marketplace, because some people

are allergic to them and could even die from them.

I've also read the child development arguments, and frankly, until I

see real evidence to support them, I'm not convinced. My observation

is that parents lie to their kids all the time - intentionally or

unintentionally - and kids find about those lies all the time, and

somehow most of them manage to muddle through and grow up OK. It's

part of the human condition, and somehow kids learn how to deal with

it. Are there exceptions? Sure, and they should be treated

differently. But to treat every child as if he or she were made

of eggshell is a bit extreme, in my opinion.

Personally, I don't celebrate Xmas because I don't have any real need

for it. But there are a lot of non-christian people who do, just for

the tradition, because it seems like a fun thing to do, etc. I'm not

going to get up on my high horse and condemn them because I see them

perpetuating part of the Xtian mythology. Similarly, there are a lot

of non-religious parents who involve their kids in the Santa myth, for

many of the same reasons (tradition, etc.). I'm not going to accuse

these parents of abusing their kids with "Santaism" - not without a

lot more evidence than I've seen so far.

May 19, 2006

There should have been a poll with this thread. I disagree with, few children are affected by the Santa myth. I disagree with, if you do lie to your children about Santa you'll turn them into little believers. I think my points are being mistaken for taking my husband's side.

His personal experience isn't hard evidence for everyone, I wasn't trying to imply that. However, his personal experience is evidence of what kind of affect this type of behavior from parents can do to a child and the out come of the even later on.

I think to obtain hard evidence we'd have to gather a bunch of children between the ages of two and five and watch the affects as far as brain activity during their blind belief and after their parents tell them it was all a lie. Although I'd think it would be the same as any other brain experiment. You'll most likely see the trauma part of the brain active.

Varokhar, seems you had just about the same experience with the Santa myth as I did. Being that I was skeptical naturally I didn't blindly believe but I enjoyed the pretending. When they finally said, you're too old to believe in Santa, I said "Why? You aren't."

My son's reaction to two children throwing an old woman in an oven to die is a pretty natural response. I'm glad he shows signs of seeing that situation as immoral. He shows truthful emotions. When the boy watches something with a child in it, you can see how much he relates to it. When he watches something with only adults in it, he tends to get very bored. For example, "The Land Before Time" I'm not fond of this movie but he loves it. However, every time he watches it he gets this look on his face like he's just lost his mother (because the mother dies in the story). I sit and watch him watch the movie. It obviously touches him deeply.

Books do the same thing to him. We do our best to read to our children as much as possible. A few family members read to them also. I actually started a library for them before my son was born.

But I'm getting off topic now....

The Santa myth may not harm all children. But it provides potential harm by requiring blind belief from the child and lies from the parents. You don't want to break the bonds you have with your children because these same bonds are going to get you though teenage hood. You want to teach your children how to think for themselves.

I am going to start a poll, so that we can see how many adults here were affected by the Santa myth.

May 19, 2006

This has been an interesting read.

Rev- I appreciate the time and logic you have put into your argument. I don't quite agree with it all, but it is nice to see people making decisions based on thought rather than emotion.

Here is where I get stuck with your argument. As I said, I did the santa thing with my kids, and my son at the age of 4 started questioning it. I will agree with you completely that as soon as a child starts questioning, a parent must be honest or trust can be damaged. Its starting the belief in the first place that I don't see as a big deal.

Your argument, if I understood it correctly, was that we as parents must always be totally honest with our children, or they will learn to distrust us. I disagree, and here are some simplistic examples I came up with.

My kids (5 and 7) like to hide from eachother and scare eachother. Many times my daughter will walk into the living room and ask where her brother is. I'll say I haven't seen him. She will then plop down on the couch, only to have her brother jump up from behind the couch and scare her. We will then all have a good laugh.

For my son's 5th birthday, I threw him a big surprise party. I had to lie about the date of his party to him, I had to lie about the type of party I was having for him, and I had to lie to get him out of the house. Of course when he walked in and 20 of his friends were there screaming, I am sure the reality of what I did hit him hard, in fact I could see it in the enormous smile on his face.

I think when you tell a lie like this, kids can look back on the event and use logic to understand why you did it. My son certainly wasn't at all mad that I had lied so much for his party, in fact, I would even say he was thrilled I had lied. My daugther loves attention from her big brother more than anything. She doesn't look back on these jokes and get mad, she understands why I lie.

I think with santa, it is the same. Like I said, I agree with you about perpetuating the lie once they figure it out. But when my son did figure it out, he was quite proud of himself and seemed to believe himself to be quite clever for a long time after that. I agree with one of the other posters that this is a good thing, it helps him to see he can make judgements about things, and he can be right. JMO.

May 19, 2006

Obviously they weren't so far fundy as to ban all Xmas stuff that wasn't about Baby Jeezus™ and his shitless diapers, but bad enough.

It just now occured to me that there isn't a single passage in the Bible about "and Jesus and his disciples walked along the road to Jerusalem; for it was the seventh day before the Feast of the Tabernacles; and Jesus said to Peter, "Lo, canst thou wait a minute?" And Jesus walked to the side of the road, and he did taketh the piss."

I guess when you're God in human form you can opt to go without the gross parts of existence.

As for this whole "argument".....geez. I mean, seriously. Geez. My mom might've been crushed to hear the truth about Santa Claus, but when I heard about her heartbreak over it, I was amazed. I knew at that moment my mother must've had one psychotic childhood (and her psychologist proved me right). I knew plenty of kids in both religious and public school who bought it one year and came back the next knowing the truth, without a single emotional scratch. Belief in Santa Claus disappears as easily and as smoothly as the belief that Mommy's kisses magically make wounds better in any non-maladjusted(sp?) kid.

I may not have believed in Santa Claus but there was one thing I did believe in as a teeny-tiny kid: The Stork. The guy who brings babies. My mother didn't teach it to me, but I figured it out from cartoons. Since I'd never come across an alternate explanation, I guess I just bought into it. First you get married, then you want a baby and the Stork brings you one. (I think my grandmother might have actually told me it like it was true, but I don't rightly remember.)

Anyway, so kindergarten rolls around, and I met another girl in my class I became friends with right away. Ashley Ainsworth. And her mom got visited by the stork ALL THE FREAKIN' TIME. As soon as he brought one kid he'd already scheduled a delivery for another one. Being around Ashley and her mom's ever-expanding belly somehow, somewhere brought me to the realization that the baby was inside the mom's belly, where it grew before it was born. No stork. Ah, so what. That was my exact reaction. I didn't even think of the stork when I figured it out. I didn't feel pangs of pain every time I saw the stork again on cartoons, I didn't feel like a led-on sucker or like some vital part of my existence had ended. The stork was dead. Who's the stork? Who's stupid enough to believe in him?

I would agree that it fostered a good belief in critical thinking. Which is why while I didn't find out the exact mechanics of baby-making until I was much older, I never again just bought anybody's explanation for how it happened until I had health classes in school.

Jeebus. Take rage out on chopping wood or something useful like that. Or at least anything other than a guy in Coke ads.

There, that's my personal experience and evidence.

May 20, 2006

quote:

We could make the same argument for any nursery rhyme or children's story. Why tell them to the kiddies if we know they aren't real and factual? Even though most parents tell them Santa is real whereas they don't promote Snow White as having really existed, still, why tell them at all if there's no realistic basis behind them?

But do you run around behind your child's back and do everything you can to make them believe that Snow White and the 7 dwarfs are real? Do you put little footprints in the front yard and then tell your kid the 7 dwarfs were here last night? That is the difference between nursery rhymes and Santa and the tooth fairy. A harmless Santa story is fine, but parents do everything they can to convince kids that he is real, and that is what I think is harmful.

When I was smoking pot and drinking in high school, did I compare my parents objections to them lying to me about Santa? Of course not, Santa never occured to me at that time. But my point is that my trust in my parents had erroded almost completly by the time I reached high school, and my earliest memory of feeling betrayed by my parents was when I was told about Santa in first or second grade. That was the begining of me questioning everything I was ever told by anyone, because even the local news would report on where Santa was, it wasn't just my family.

So it made me question what I was told in school in regards to pot, alcohol, etc. I didn't NOT believe it, but I took it with a grain of salt, because "adults will lie to you". Out of all the posts on this topic, I still don't see any benifit to Santa aside from parents "think it's cute to watch the children's faces light up". To me, that is nowhere near a good enough reason to lie to children. And we DON'T know how each child will react...my sis wasn't fazed at all when she found out. So why risk destroying your child's trust in you for a couple of years of fun for YOU? And besides, xmas would not be one bit less exciting for child or parent if Santa were to die.

May 20, 2006

If I ever have kids, I will not lie to them about Santa or anything else. I will find a tactful way to say things, and I will certainly encourage them to read books and use their imaginations, but I won't say that it's real. IMHO, lying doesn't foster healthy relationships.

May 20, 2006

By telling our children the truth, we can’t go wrong. After all, isn’t honesty the best policy?

I think this is making a big deal out of nothing. It's also not a general thing and it's going to vary for each child. If my son starting debating with me that Santa can't possibly be real, I'm not going to argue that he is. But I'll let him figure it out for himself rather than kill it for him. Please, at his age, Higglytown Heroes as bisected hollow shells that can jump inside of each makes perfect sense. I can't describe how priceless it was to take him to Disneyland and have him shake hands with Buzz Lightyear in person. What idiot would say to his child, that's just a guy dressed up in a suit?!? When his logic circuits and B.S. detector are well-developed enough, I'll answer questions accordingly. Until then he's going to have as much kid fun as I can provide.

May 20, 2006

If I ever have kids, I will not lie to them about Santa or anything else. I will find a tactful way to say things, and I will certainly encourage them to read books and use their imaginations, but I won't say that it's real. IMHO, lying doesn't foster healthy relationships.

Exactly!

I think this is making a big deal out of nothing. It's also not a general thing and it's going to vary for each child. If my son starting debating with me that Santa can't possibly be real, I'm not going to argue that he is. But I'll let him figure it out for himself rather than kill it for him. Please, at his age, Higglytown Heroes as bisected hollow shells that can jump inside of each makes perfect sense. I can't describe how priceless it was to take him to Disneyland and have him shake hands with Buzz Lightyear in person. What idiot would say to his child, that's just a guy dressed up in a suit?!? When his logic circuits and B.S. detector are well-developed enough, I'll answer questions accordingly. Until then he's going to have as much kid fun as I can provide.

He can have fun and still know the truth. My kids do. It doesn't seem to take anything away from them. In fact I think it adds to their fun. They put more value on family time than on waiting for Santa. In fact, we don't' wait for Santa at all, we wait to open gifts and spend the day together. They still express anticipation for the day to start. They still watch xmas movies (I do my best not to keep them from things with the exception of things that are actually harmful for the growing brains like religious movies).

The big deal isn't the Santa myth itself but what it promotes. It promotes parents to lie in order to keep their child believing because they believe that the child will get the most out of a "good" or "fun" childhood. I think these are the same type of parents who don't know that just spending an hour with their child will bring the child more fun than hiding gifs and saying their from some magical man.

I've told my children that those are just people dressed up in suits. Are you calling me an idiot? He's 4, and scared of people dressed up in suits. So I reassured him that there was nothing to be afraid of by informing him that it was just a person dressed up in a costume, just like on Halloween. This seem to settle his fears. After all, the thought of a giant bunny or cartoon character is scary to even me.

I think my children are proof that telling a child the truth doesn't kill anything.

But do you run around behind your child's back and do everything you can to make them believe that Snow White and the 7 dwarfs are real? Do you put little footprints in the front yard and then tell your kid the 7 dwarfs were here last night? That is the difference between nursery rhymes and Santa and the tooth fairy. A harmless Santa story is fine, but parents do everything they can to convince kids that he is real, and that is what I think is harmful.

I totally know what you're talking about.

We'd watch the news talk about how they spotted Santa, write letters, and my grandfather dressed up as santa. He'd come though the front door and pass out gifts then leave. Yeah, I knew it was him. But it was still fun.

They did their best to keep the myth alive. If you read the gift tags they said "From: Santa"

We didn't leave milk and cookies out. But we did a hell of a lot of other things.

May 20, 2006

I'm raising my kids in Santaism, Tooth Fairyanity and Bunny worship. As well as all the fun pagan holidays and halloween. I'm a firm believer that kids need a little magic in their life. So do adults sometimes. (but hopefully not in the form of santa or the easter bunny.)

I refuse to make false correlations between an idea that NOBODY believes as an adult, and a religion. There are differences. One can make some points with parallels but I think it's silly for people to get all up in arms over Santa Claus belief.

I think MOST people blindly believe in things and follow a herd. people tend to be "pack" animals. There are few true "leaders" or independent thinkers. Most people find a group, latch on, and are content to be breastfed someone else's ideology whether it is overtly religious or not. I don't think anybody is exempt from this whether they were raised with santa claus belief or not.

I've met people raised in atheist households without any imaginary stuff, no imaginary friends, no religion, who grow up to become fundamentalist christians. It's no more or less unlikely than someone raised in a world of magic and uber religion growing up and becoming atheist.

Everybody is different. Everyone has different emotional, spiritual and psychological needs. People have different temperaments. You can raise ten children with the EXACT same environments and end up with ten different results. Children cannot be totally quarantined and innoculated. You teach them to have their own opinions, not to bow down before authority and to use their own brains, but they might still come out christian, or pagan, or hindu or whatever.

That's what freethought IS. When someone weighs everything around them and comes up with their own conclusion, even if it isn't the same conclusion you came up with using the same methods.

I don't know many kids who are well-versed in logic unless you teach them.

I think saying that Santa is a gateway God for Jesus is like saying Marijuana is a gateway drug for Heroin...slippery slope fallacy.

Ok, first off if you try one drug and like it, it does become a gateway for more drug use. However, it really doesn't matter which one you start off with.

Second, Zoe, it sounds like you're getting "all worked up" over this santa thread. Maybe I'm misreading but it sounds like you're getting defensive and defending your right to parent a child using the santa myth. Really, it's all up to you.

On a basic level the santa myth is just like all the other myths which yes, can cause some kind of harm.

I've never met a successful household where there was a complete absence of imagination. And no religion? Really? I'd think that even with keeping religion out of your house, your children will still be subjected by family members, friends and just every day people they meet on the street. For the mere fact that most people are religious, we're the minority.

You're going to teach them your opinion no matter if you like it or not. They learn by watching and listening. I'm a little confused as to why you think you have to defend using the santa myth.

Seriously, I thought freethought was more about people who questioned. You come up with a conclusion based on others opinions. Mostly because its someone else opinion no matter how you slice it.

Everything you do, from how you act to who you are now was a combination of nature and nurture. It will be the same case with your children. The santa myth will teach them something. However, what it doesn't teach them is how to pretend. Believing and pretending are two different things.

If anything santa claus belief, rather than serving as a "gateway god" can serve as an early vaccine against other ideas that later come his way. As long as questioning continues to be encouraged.

It's only the fact that questioning ISN'T encouraged in Christian households, of Christianity, that makes it so hard on a child to ever break away from it. It's not the belief system itself, and it's not the kid's logic receptors being fried from santa claus...afterall MOST children logically figure out santa all by themselves. Very few kids have to have a parent tell them the truth about it.

It's not a "gateway god" it's a "gateway to blind belief." It's just a form of teaching a child to do something. No matter if a parent concentrates on just imagination, or teaching a child morality, or just the belief part. The santa myth does teach. That is what it's meant to do.

May 21, 2006

With respect, perhaps your parents were just dicks in this regard?

Dicks? No, they weren't dicks. The only time my mother got mean with me about Christmas was when I saw the presents she was buying for me that were supposed to be from Santa. I remember he flipping out over that one. She took the whole Sanat thing very seriously. But I do believe it was out of love that she did it. I don't think she meant to set me up for a fall. That's just what happened.

In all seriousness, it's not so much the myth here but how they treated it. Do I recall correctly that you said earlier that your folks were fundies? Obviously they weren't so far fundy as to ban all Xmas stuff that wasn't about Baby Jeezus and his shitless diapers, but bad enough. Maybe most of your own problems with the normally-harmless Santa myth were a result of your parents hammering home whatever they wanted?

My mother was and is a fundy in her own way. She dislikes the Bible, though, for it's violence. She finds the book upsetting and doesn't read it. She has her "relationship" with God and Jesus to get her through her troubles and that's about where it ends. Imagine an imaginary therapist that just sits and listens, but never says anything back. Really, that's not too far off from what a real therapist does! lol... She's always feared "the Devil," though, and so in that respect she's very much a fundy. She tried to stop me from bringing horror movies into the house because she thought it "would invite the Devil." It was her beliefs in this are that had a great impact on me and how I saw religion. Through her, it looked very, very silly.

My Dad just went along with it. He's never been a fundy. He's actually very open to pretty much all possibilties and I can have discussions with him on philosophy, religion or whatever.

Honestly, to cite a singular story like yours, while not excuseable on your parents' behalf, is painting with too broad a brush. I might as well castigate all Blacks for the criminal actions of a few hundred or thousand gangbangers and wannabe gangbangers, for example. Unilaterally condemning the Santa myth and accusing those who tell it of horrific lying bordering on child abuse is extreme and inaccurate. Unless/until it can be proven that the Santa myth is a direct cause of harm to children, then you really can't say that it is.

I can say what I feel is true based on my experience. I don't say that there have been studies in this are, because I'be never read any. But I can say it's true for me. Common sense also dictates that lying to children is wrong, as anyone will admit. The other point, that my wife likes to bring up, is that the harm related to Atheism or really just general well being, is in teaching a kid that believing something blindly is ok and to question something's existence is not. You should always question, no matter how popular. This kind of anti-logic is terribel for a young mind striving to understand the world around him. I say go with honesty. It's the best policy.

Also, and again with respect, you took it very seriously. In a way, you're still taking it too seriously, just in the opposite extreme. It seems to me your overall problem is with taking something too seriously, but that's precisely what's happening here. Just consider that you're still putting too much stock in the Santa myth, just in regards to something different.

I take it seriously when I defend my position. I don't obsess about year round. It only becomes a big deal around Christmas time as so many people just assume that you subscribe to their mythology. Then I have to explain that I'm an Atheist, we don't celebrate Christmas, we celebrate Solstice - and what that is, and so on.

Taking things seriously is just me. I tend to think that most people don't take things serious enough. This is just because, though, my perception of the world is colored by my beliefs and experiences.

May 21, 2006

But do you run around behind your child's back and do everything you can to make them believe that Snow White and the 7 dwarfs are real? Do you put little footprints in the front yard and then tell your kid the 7 dwarfs were here last night? That is the difference between nursery rhymes and Santa and the tooth fairy. A harmless Santa story is fine, but parents do everything they can to convince kids that he is real, and that is what I think is harmful.

That is so true. The lies keep building to keep Santa alive. Let the real Santa stay dead. No need to dress up his rotted corpse in a red suit.

When I was smoking pot and drinking in high school, did I compare my parents objections to them lying to me about Santa? Of course not, Santa never occured to me at that time. But my point is that my trust in my parents had erroded almost completly by the time I reached high school, and my earliest memory of feeling betrayed by my parents was when I was told about Santa in first or second grade. That was the begining of me questioning everything I was ever told by anyone, because even the local news would report on where Santa was, it wasn't just my family.

That's exactly the lesson promoting Santaism teaches. It's ok to lie to kids. It's ok to completely warp their little minds because you, as a parent think it's cute. Why did you lie to me Mommy and Daddy? It was for your own good, son -- and it was just so darn cute watching you act so funny because you thought that it was all real! Ha, ha, ha, it was precious, Billy!

So it made me question what I was told in school in regards to pot, alcohol, etc. I didn't NOT believe it, but I took it with a grain of salt, because "adults will lie to you". Out of all the posts on this topic, I still don't see any benifit to Santa aside from parents "think it's cute to watch the children's faces light up". To me, that is nowhere near a good enough reason to lie to children. And we DON'T know how each child will react...my sis wasn't fazed at all when she found out. So why risk destroying your child's trust in you for a couple of years of fun for YOU? And besides, xmas would not be one bit less exciting for child or parent if Santa were to die.

It's hard enough to keep the trust in a relationship between parent and child. If you start out with this massive lie that just keeps snowballing, it's just not a good start. To start with a foundation of trust, you must keep your relationship completely honest. Going with Santa just isn't that way.

Our son's and daughter's faces light up all the time. When we have something they really like to eat. When we tell them they're going to the park. When their birthday is coming up. Eeven if it's just time to watch their favorite movie for the ten millionth time! And guess what? Thetre was no need for lying in any of these situations.

If I ever have kids, I will not lie to them about Santa or anything else. I will find a tactful way to say things, and I will certainly encourage them to read books and use their imaginations, but I won't say that it's real. IMHO, lying doesn't foster healthy relationships.

It doesn't work with husband and wife and it doesn't work with child and parent. It doesn't even work with friends. How many fights start with "You lied to me!" Don't teach your children that lying is ok. Don't teach the Santa myth.

By telling our children the truth, we can’t go wrong. After all, isn’t honesty the best policy?

I think this is making a big deal out of nothing. It's also not a general thing and it's going to vary for each child. If my son starting debating with me that Santa can't possibly be real, I'm not going to argue that he is. But I'll let him figure it out for himself rather than kill it for him. Please, at his age, Higglytown Heroes as bisected hollow shells that can jump inside of each makes perfect sense. I can't describe how priceless it was to take him to Disneyland and have him shake hands with Buzz Lightyear in person. What idiot would say to his child, that's just a guy dressed up in a suit?!? When his logic circuits and B.S. detector are well-developed enough, I'll answer questions accordingly. Until then he's going to have as much kid fun as I can provide.

I guess I'm an idiot then for teaching my children the truth. I'd rather show him how things are done and encourage his curiousity at how the world really works, then get some cheap thrill off of watching him get suckered. No thanks. My children ask so many questions because they want to know the truth.

Why is it that so pmany parents think a kid can't possibly have fun when he knows the truth? Where is the logic in that ridiculous statement? It just doesn't make any sesne. My kids have fun with just about everything. Give them a paper bag, a piece of string, or a ribbon and they're happy to the point of giggling uncontrollably. Did I have to tell them something that wasn't true in order for them to have fun with these items? No. The same goes for everything else.

May 21, 2006

I'm raising my kids in Santaism, Tooth Fairyanity and Bunny worship. As well as all the fun pagan holidays and halloween. I'm a firm believer that kids need a little magic in their life. So do adults sometimes. (but hopefully not in the form of santa or the easter bunny.)

I think it's fun to pretend that magic is real. I ahve absolutely no problem with that. My kids do that all time. BUt they will tell you, if you ask, that is fake or that he's just pretending. I love movies like LOTR and Harry potter. But we always like to show our children the behind the scenes. To me, that's where the real "magic" is. The magic is in the illusion. It's in the ability to trick an animal with such a highly evolved brain that is capable of such a high degree of perception.

I refuse to make false correlations between an idea that NOBODY believes as an adult, and a religion. There are differences. One can make some points with parallels but I think it's silly for people to get all up in arms over Santa Claus belief.

The big deal is the incredible amount of lying it takes to support the existence of a man in a red suit who flies all around in one night carried by magical, flying reindeer and supported by a gang of magical elves. The big deal is in the fact that it is teaching children to believe blindly is a good thing. It's not. Also, you'll find in many a Santa movie, that the unbeliever is demonized. What's wrong with you?! Why don't you believe as we do?

I think MOST people blindly believe in things and follow a herd. people tend to be "pack" animals. There are few true "leaders" or independent thinkers. Most people find a group, latch on, and are content to be breastfed someone else's ideology whether it is overtly religious or not. I don't think anybody is exempt from this whether they were raised with santa claus belief or not.

And supporting this is good because? You obviously believe this is a human problem. Why amplify and support it? Why not do everything to challenge it?

I've met people raised in atheist households without any imaginary stuff, no imaginary friends, no religion, who grow up to become fundamentalist christians. It's no more or less unlikely than someone raised in a world of magic and uber religion growing up and becoming atheist.

While I can see the point in your observations, your own personl studies do not make your position true. You can't be too cautious in what you teach your children. I will not set up my children's minds so that they're susceptibleto succumbing to religion later on. Just like smoking and drug and alcohol abuse, I will do everything in my power to keep them from starting.

Everybody is different. Everyone has different emotional, spiritual and psychological needs. People have different temperaments. You can raise ten children with the EXACT same environments and end up with ten different results. Children cannot be totally quarantined and innoculated. You teach them to have their own opinions, not to bow down before authority and to use their own brains, but they might still come out christian, or pagan, or hindu or whatever.

I have to try my best regardless of what might happen. They might become serial killers for all I know, but I'm not going to be responsible for it. In the same vien, I want to look back and say I did everything I possibly could to keep them within their birthright, Atheism. If it fails, I gave it my best effort. This doesn't mean, though, I should just throw up my hands and go along with the herd. No, not this Dad.

That's what freethought IS. When someone weighs everything around them and comes up with their own conclusion, even if it isn't the same conclusion you came up with using the same methods.

And this justifies telling children lies how? You still can't get around that. To tell them that Santa, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth fairy are real is a lie. Plain and simple. Just say no. Tell them the truth.

The tooth fairy doesn't fly silly. Her wings are too small and diaphanous to hold up her body. She teleports. Not that you NEED this information.

Well, going by what can be seen in kid's movies, she does indeed fly. But since she is supernatural, she doesn't need to follow any of the laws of physics, much like Santa. Her flying seems to be mostly levitation with a little wing flapping for exercise.

I agree with this sentiment. Telling a child up front "santa isn't real" to me isn't teaching your child to think for himself. It's teaching him to think like you do. All children naturally get to the questioning phase of santa claus belief which is when he IS learning to think for himself. When he starts to question.

By itself no, it's just one piece in the puzzle. You start out with honesty and go from there. Telling your children that Santa isn't real, but there was a man who the myth is based on several hundred years ago, is part of that.

If anything santa claus belief, rather than serving as a "gateway god" can serve as an early vaccine against other ideas that later come his way. As long as questioning continues to be encouraged.

If it's a vaccine, why make your kid sick just to ward off bad things later when there are much better ways? Science and honesty are those ways. Teach them how the world really works and everything else should fall into place. It's kind of like saying you should beat up your kid so he can learn to fight.

May 21, 2006

My parents NEVER lied about it and I resent the assumption that in order to support the santa myth parents have to out and out lie. It was just a fun bit of magic. When I started questioning and saying "well how this and how that" my mom would say: "Well I don't know, what do you think?"

Telling them that Santa is bringing them presents is a lie. Telling your kids that you and your relatives are buying them gifts because they love them is the truth. Which is better?

When I asked outright if santa was real, because a few of my friends were doubting their santa claus belief and I was starting to put two and two together, my mother neither wanted to make me believe something that wasn't real, nor did she want to crush my belief, so again she said: "What do you think?"

She still set you up with it in the first place regardless of whether she let you out without a fight.

My mother asked me why not. I explained why not. She asked if I was upset about that. I said "not really." For a long time, though I didn't REALLY believe in Santa, sometimes I held onto a tiny bit of that magic I was gifted with as a child.

Why do you think that you have to really believe in magic to have a good childhood? The truth is, you don't. Furthermore, if you never get them believing magic is real, then they'll never miss it. They'll have fun without it. My kids are a prime example of this.

To me, Santa, like many cultural and magical icons from childhood, was special. To have had my parents outright from the very beginning say: "there is no santa" would have crushed me. I enjoyed it. But my parents didn't lie, or work to support a fantasy in me. It was just a natural part of growing up. The santa claus experience as well as the "finding out" is a rite of passage for a child in this culture.

I doubt it. If you are raised this way, it's just normal. That's the biggest mistake you're making. You're projecting. My kids casually accpeted the fact that Santa wasn't real. It was no big deal, at all. Just the relay of a small bit of information. Had I set them up for years thinking that he was real and then pulled the plug, then they might have been "crushed," as I was. That's just not the case, though. As I've said before, he knows that Harry Potter is played by an actor and that magic isn't real, but he still he loves the series. It just doesn't matter. Remove the reality of magic and it's still fun. Your logic reminds me of the way things got when I drank all the time. Things just weren't fun without the alcohol. But they were. It was all in my head as I had become dependent on a drug to modify the way I saw the world. NOt good, at all.

To me, telling a child outright from the very beginning all these cultural icons aren't really real, isn't that great of an idea if you're wanting to foster "freethinking" Because then you're fighting your kid's first "logic battle" yourself, by giving them the answers ahead of time. It's like skipping a step in a kid's development and I think it's crappy.

There are billions upon billions of "logic battles" a child can face. Why does he need to be lied to so he can falsely believe in Santa? Why not teach critical thinking skills in the first place instead of taking advantage of him to teach him a lesson?

Again, you're free to raise your kids how you see fit, that's the right of a parent. But I don't like this assumption that all parents are running around blatantly lying to their kids about santa and trying really hard to make them believe in these things.

It's an assumption? If you tell your kids Santa is real, that's a lie -- and that's what they do. It's not an assumption, it's a fact. It's an assumption that they let the lies snowball, but the first lie is what sets the whole ball in motion and is the most important.

i'm sorry about how your parents hurt you with the santa claus myth and the lying, but most parents really don't handle it that way with their kids.

I assume they do. You assume they don't. Does either of us have any data on what is true here? How is it that I'm assuming and you're not?

I see this as taking out of context what was said. The context was...this kid was REALLY excited to be meeting the REAL buzz lightyear. What kind of idiot would crush the light in that kid's eyes just to say it's not really buzz lightyear.

I would have told my children, as I have, that the characters in a movie aren't real. They know how these movies are made. They see that people are the ones voicing these characters. Therefore, they wouldn't think that some guy in a suit was the character as they've already been educated on how movies work. If you start with correctly explaining the world, there's no need for "crushing the light."

If, however it was YOUR kid who thought buzz lightyear was real and this was the REAL buzz he was meeting and his eyes lit up and you told him IN THAT SITUATION that it was just some guy in a suit, I wouldn't say you were an idiot, I'd say you were an asshole.

lol... It wouldn't be the first time. Sometimes, in order to do what you feel is right, you get called names by peope who just can't comprehend your motivations. I'd rather have my kid marvel at the artistry and technology it took to pull of Disneyland than to have him fooled by some sweaty guy in a big suit. Either way, he'd have "light" in his eyes as what you're describing with poetic metaphors is just excitement. Kids get excited at just about everything. They don't have be lied to for this.

May 21, 2006

My parents didn't lie about it. They always asked what I thought about it. Mostly other people and the kids I was around propped up the santa claus belief. Besides, it's not really that hard for ANYONE to get a four year old to buy the santa myth. Logic receptors aren't fully firing remember? So no, it DOESN'T take a huge amount of lying. Then kids naturally just grow out of it. IMO it's really no big deal. I know you feel differently about it, but we're just gonna have to agree to disagree on the point.

So they had absolutley nothing in getting you to believe that Santa was a real man? I don't believe that. They wrapped you in lies by supporting it. Just because they were trying to give you an easy way out doesn't mean they didn't lie in the first place. Had they told you that the presents were from them and your relatives, not Santa, they would have been innocent.

I didn't say it was supporting it.

You did, though, albeit indirectly. You said: "I'm raising my kids in Santaism, Tooth Fairyanity and Bunny worship." I took this to mean that you've got your kids to believe that these imaginary friends are real. That's lying and that's supporting going along with what the majority believes.

The issue at hand (originally) was, does santa claus belief prime people for belief in other things like christianity. And my view is that NO, it does not, because HUMAN NATURE primes you for this naturally. Whether you're christian, atheist, muslim, whatever, most people blindly follow the "authorities" of whatever "group" they self identify with. (note that atheists are not exempt from this mentality.)

It teaches kids that believing blindly is ok, it's wrong to question, unbelief is a bad thing, and lying is ok if your parents do it. The first three, seeped in the dopamine of the brain's reward system, get engrained. Sure, this can be deprogrammed, but why when it's better just to be honest?

I don't think Santa Claus belief amplifies it, and I absolutely am not starting an anti-santa crusade. Nor do I feel the need to project my adult sensibilities onto a small child. Why would someone want to take santa away from a kid? Or Buzz Lightyear? Or the Easter Bunny? These are things (with the exception of Buzz, since I was a grown up by then) that were important parts of my childhood, happy parts of it.

Why do you think that telling your children the truth is taking fictional characters away? They're still there. They're just not believed to be real. My kids still love the characters in movies. They just know the truth. The love didn't go away.

Also, I'm not an atheist. So I HAVE beliefs. So I don't think all belief is "bad." My issue is with people just latching onto someone else's ideas instead of discovering what their own are. So to me, "belief" in something isn't necessarily bad. And santa definitely isn't.

lol... I have beliefs, too. Being an Atheist isn't about lacking beliefs entirely. It's only about lacking belief in the truth of one single subject: deities. So, I don't think beliefs, in and of themselves, are bad either. They're a necessary part of perception.

My own personal studies do not make my position true? Never said it did, any more than your own personal experience makes your position true.

You said this: "It's no more or less unlikely than someone raised in a world of magic and uber religion growing up and becoming atheist." This is the position I was refering to.

All I'm saying is...NO special child rearing is gonna GUARANTEE your kid is gonna turn out like you want. He/she is an individual human being with his/her own thoughts and feelings and all the projecting in the world won't make him into a mini-you.

I know this. There are no guarantees. All you can do is try and do everything you think is right in regards to successfully bringing up your children.

And I believe you CAN be too cautious in what you teach your children. I think there is a such thing as OVER cautiousness. Just like some mothers get paranoid about germs around their kids, other people get paranoid about "memes" around their kids. Paranoia is paranoia. And paranoia IMO is unhealthy.

My caution involves removing the lies. I don't see how this could be seen as overly cautious. It should be what all parents strive for.

What will you do if your child becomes religious anyway someday?

The same thing my parents, relatives, in-laws, friends and I have had to do: accept each other. I'd rather my children be second generation Atheist, but I can only lead them so far. They have their own minds and they will believe what makes the most sense to them in the end.

how is force feeding atheism any more moral than force feeding christianity? Will you accept it if your kid one day says: "So dad, I've decided on paganism as my personal path."

Forcing would require resistance. I just teach them science and tell them about all the world's gods and goddesses. Some people believe in them. Others don't. They know all this.

It's the subject of what's being taught that brings up the morality issue. But morality is subjective. I think teaching Christianity and Santaism are wrong because in the case of the former, it's very violent, teaches bad values, is clearly mythology, is anti-science as well as a host of other complaints I could level against this religion. The latter is wrong mostly because of the lies involved, the worship of blind belief and the demonization of unbelievers in this pseudo-religion.

Many of the people on here are largely upset because their parents forced Christianity on them without any other options. By barring the way to any and all spiritual paths for your kids you seem to be doing the same thing with atheism. Such absolute zealousness on your part may end up backfiring. Nobody likes to be hemmed in or to feel as if they are being manipulated.

I am teaching them about all religions. There are tens of thousands with millions of gods. We are slwoly teaching them about all of them. They kow that people believe in these things. They know, also, that their parents don't.

It sounds to me like you aren't interested in your child growing up and having the freedom to pick their own path without any pressure from you on the matter, (which is what most of us are upset that we didn't get.) you want to raise little atheists. And that's not the same thing as raising a free thinker. A free thinking atheist is one who came to that conclusion without outside pressure to do so.

They will follow their own path regardless of what I do. I just want them to have all the infromation they possibly can about the issue of religion. It's not so one sided as just teaching Atheism or Christainity. They will learn about it all.

If someone is wearing a hideous outfit and comes to you and says: "don't you love my outfit" do you say: "No, it's the most hideous thing I've ever seen."?

I consider the "santa claus" lie about equal to this, IF the parent is casual about it and ISN'T like your parents were (trying to make you believe it.), you can make all these emotional appeals to lying that you want. But I won't be browbeaten and my opinion will not change on the matter, just as yours won't.

I would tell them I didn't like it and why. That's the kind of person I am. I value honesty. You don't have to go overboard when you tell the truth, though. You can be polite. Yours is a false dichotomy between lying and being mean. It doesn't have to be that way.

You can try to excuse lying by framing it as "casual," but it's still the same dishonesty. It just was never taken to the same level as it was with me.

A few isolated instances (yours included) in my opinion do not justify throwing the whole thing out.

No, but valuing honesty over lying does. Plain and simple, it's a lie. I don't like lying and so I saw no need to keep the cycle going. It ended in my household.

You can try to safeguard your child TOO much IMO. Then they don't learn to fight their own demons. IMO that's FAR more harmful than allowing a kid to believe in santa claus. And Again, Santa Claus belief is NOT like saying you should beat up your kid so he can learn to fight,if anything it's more like saying: "Let your kid deal with the schoolyard bully on his own, don't drive to the school and make a scene about it."

How is telling the truth to your children fighting a battle? It's just labeling fiction for what it is. There is no battle if you do this. I didn't fight it as there was nothing to fight. But by lying to your child just so he can figure it out it is like beating him up to teach him to fight. You hand him a battle by filling his head with this stuff. So which is better? Handing him the truth (no battle for parent or child) or giving him a battle to fight?

There are plenty of other puzzles for our children to solve. They don't need dishonesty from their parents in addition to this.

You and I obviously have two very different styles with regards to children. I think one should step back and let a kid fall down a few times because hovering and smothering only raises a fearful child. My belief on this matter comes from my childhood experience (I have many fears propogated by a parent that tried to protect me too much and freaked out any time anything bad happened.)

lol... My kids do fall down plenty. I realize you're using a metaphor, but I can't help but deal with the literal side here. My kids fall, I look at their owies, clean them up and do what's necessary. I don't smother them. In fact, I do everything I can to make them understand that they're fine. It's just a scrape. It's just a bruise. You'll heal.

It's good that you want to shield and protect your child, it's a natural instinct, but when you never let a kid fight his own battles or process logic on his own, or figure out what HE thinks about something before you've given him your scientifically approved version...you might end up with someone who'll never take a step on his own without your guidance, and that IMO is FAR more unhealthy than the big jolly redsuited guy and his sleigh full of toys.

False dichotomy. My child does fight his own battles. He fights with his little sister all the time! He argues with us, too! If he thinks something is incorrect he'll make his case -- and sometimes he wins. If he's got a problem he tries his best to figure it out. He's a bright kid and can hold his own. The same goes for my daughter. Not lying to them has not harmed them. It's set up a relationship of honesty.

This isn't that big of a deal. It's your opinion that it is, so hey, nothing I can do about that. Honestly I feel bad for your kids. I feel like they're missing out on a natural part of childhood but hey, it's not my issue.

You've given plenty of examples of all the fun your logical children are having. So who can argue with that

Also, please stop insisting my parents are liars. That's just very tacky. How would you feel if I was calling into question the character of your parents?

I really don't even know how i GOT into this argument. Believe it or not this isn't something I care that much about. I get riled up about stupid things sometimes (and yes, I think this is a stupid issue)

I put my two cents in cause something set me off...I think it was using the words "santa-ism", "tooth fairyanity", and "bunny worship" as if these things were somehow real threats to society. So i sort of just latched on.

But...it's really not a big deal. But people reply to me, I reply back, before I know it i'm in a full fledged argument, If I keep this up I'm gonna be calling you a stupid poopiehead and that never goes well.

Basically what I'm saying is. Let's agree to disagree. It doesn't really matter who is "right" cause you are gonna raise your children how you see fit and I will do the same. How my kids are raised in no way will affect you and vice versa.

I really don't care enough about this issue to continue arguing the point. At this point it's all about snappy comebacks, and I'm gonna end up saying something really tacky that hurts your feelings. And I really don't want to be that person right now.

Fine by me. I've said my piece. I'm just repeating myself over and over now. Meanwhile, there are dishes to be done, kids who don't want to go to bed, today's messes to clean and so on and so on. In other words, I've been sitting on my ass for far too long. I need to get this house cleaned up so the kids can mess up it tomorrow. lol... Good night.

Is Santa A Primer For Blind Belief?

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