Is Santa A Primer For Blind Belief?

[Guest freak]

Do Demerol is God? or Santa?

 

I am.

Bow before me, supplicant.

[AtheistMommy]

 

I think that's the point - it's OK to let them believe things sometimes, and rarely necessary to override it. Insisting in crushing all make-believe may stifle imagination and creativity, and apart from that it just sounds so dull. It's also possible to overdo it and become a "fundy" version of an atheist. The beauty of atheism is that it doesn't have to be forced, it doesn't have to be some life-consuming doctrine that needs to be beaten into kids for their own good. Don't fall into a different version of the trap religious fundies are in, atheists have the ability to let their kids be truly free. Even if it means believing in Santa for a while.

 

See that's just it. I think there was some serious miscommincation here. I didn't say we were keeping santa from our children. I said that we aren't teaching them the santa myth. If you ask my son about santa (this one woman at target did and it was funny as hell) he'll most likely tell you that santa is dead. Not because he doesn't beleive in him but because I told my son about the legend of santa and not the myth. Which, just in case you're interested, is posted on the history chennals web site.

 

It's an awesome story about a man who gave to needy children. The reason my son said he was dead was because he asked me where santa was and I said "most likely dead because we can't live forever." The man lived nearly a thousand years ago.

 

I agree, it's nearly impossible to keep children from pretending and believing in something that doesn't exist. That's why I stick to proof. And now my 4 year old expects you to not only tell him but also show him.

 

The problem with Atheism is that the only thing you need to have in order to make you an Atheist is the lack of belief in all gods and goddesses. Everything else is pretty much up in the air.

[AtheistMommy]

What part of the brain where you hit on? If you don't mind me asking.

 

.22 calibre short entered left cheekbone, riccocheted three times within the frontal lobe before fragmenting. Took the sight from my left eye. Lost my sense of smell. In a coma for a while. Major behavioral difficulties (mostly rage issues) until the swelling went down. This happened 23 years ago. It has kind of devolved from major life-changing event to interesting story.

 

I only mention it because the brain is a thing we cannot begin to understand. The damage in my case was pretty severe. I however lead a very normal life. Only issues I retain are headaches and poor short term memory (Which my Palm Pilot helps with immeasurably)

 

I did not seek out Santa afterwards. I did seek out God. Only time in my life I ever did. I just wanted the pain to go away.

It didn't. So I instead discovered Demerol.

 

Wow that sucks ass! I'm glad you're ok. I did a speech on the frontal lobe, everything you're saying sounds typical. We may not have all the answers but we have more answers than we did decades ago. Not to mention the better technology gets, the more knowledge we aquire.

 

LOL, demerol. Wow, yeah drugs are sometimes nice.

[Reverend AtheiStar]

 

 

I believe in equality. Dishes are human work, as is mowing. It shouldn't be divided into a sex issue. Mowing, though, funny or not, is done exclusively by me -- though my two year old daughter loves to try to help! lol... It's not a safety issue, though, it's a reel mower. It's got no engine.

 

 

Eh... equality is overrated. I don't care for equality. Nope, not at all.

 

That's too bad. I really admire the suffragist movement, the civil rights movement, and just about any other movements, such as that of the Atheist, in our history. So much was sacrificed by the pioneers of equality. We should appreciate all that we have and the culture that has evolved from it.

[RedPillAddict]

 

I think that's the point - it's OK to let them believe things sometimes, and rarely necessary to override it. Insisting in crushing all make-believe may stifle imagination and creativity, and apart from that it just sounds so dull. It's also possible to overdo it and become a "fundy" version of an atheist. The beauty of atheism is that it doesn't have to be forced, it doesn't have to be some life-consuming doctrine that needs to be beaten into kids for their own good. Don't fall into a different version of the trap religious fundies are in, atheists have the ability to let their kids be truly free. Even if it means believing in Santa for a while.

 

See that's just it. I think there was some serious miscommincation here. I didn't say we were keeping santa from our children. I said that we aren't teaching them the santa myth. If you ask my son about santa (this one woman at target did and it was funny as hell) he'll most likely tell you that santa is dead. Not because he doesn't beleive in him but because I told my son about the legend of santa and not the myth. Which, just in case you're interested, is posted on the history chennals web site.

 

It's an awesome story about a man who gave to needy children. The reason my son said he was dead was because he asked me where santa was and I said "most likely dead because we can't live forever." The man lived nearly a thousand years ago.

 

I agree, it's nearly impossible to keep children from pretending and believing in something that doesn't exist. That's why I stick to proof. And now my 4 year old expects you to not only tell him but also show him.

 

The problem with Atheism is that the only thing you need to have in order to make you an Atheist is the lack of belief in all gods and goddesses. Everything else is pretty much up in the air.

 

Wish my parents had did that with me. I know that continuing the Santa story is considered "the norm", but I think that at some level it makes the child feel like they have been lied to. But, then again, maybe realizing for yourself that Santa isnt real can help you later in life to realize that Jesus isnt real either.

[Reverend AtheiStar]

I see this as taking out of context what was said. The context was...this kid was REALLY excited to be meeting the REAL buzz lightyear. What kind of idiot would crush the light in that kid's eyes just to say it's not really buzz lightyear.

 

That's right; of course I'm not calling anyone an idiot, it's a hypothetical. He was so excited, if he wants to believe it, I'll let him. That's not lying. If he insists it's a guy in a suit, and I say no, he's real - that would be lying.

 

I don't have time to read the whole thread, but it seems like a case of overthink. I think it more likely to engender resentment if you kill the magic in a child's childhood, than if they question why you let them believe things that weren't true. Hello, you were a kid, that's why. Who wouldn't understand that? If my son gets upset at that, I'd point at him and laugh, then tell him to get over it.

 

What you really don't understand is that kids will find "magic" regardless. They will have fun despite your silly insistence that they need to believe in mythological entities to be happy. They, as children, know much better than you and are walking proof against your assertions. Lying is never necessary.

 

I did not seek out Santa afterwards. I did seek out God. Only time in my life I ever did. I just wanted the pain to go away. It didn't. So I instead discovered Demerol.

 

lol... What an awesome quote!

[AtheistMommy]

 

Wish my parents had did that with me. I know that continuing the Santa story is considered "the norm", but I think that at some level it makes the child feel like they have been lied to. But, then again, maybe realizing for yourself that Santa isnt real can help you later in life to realize that Jesus isnt real either.

 

You might be on to something there. I was lied to about plenty of other things that led me to question my grandparents, parents and later on, the rest of the world.

[Reverend AtheiStar]

Insisting in crushing all make-believe may stifle imagination and creativity, and apart from that it just sounds so dull.

 

This is a strawman. Who said anything about "crushing all make-believe?" Certainly not I. I fully encourage, and quite often I might add, them to use their imaginations. There is a difference, though, between simple imagining and believing something is real when it is not. With the former you realize it's all in your head, with the latter you don't.

[Reverend AtheiStar]

Well mostly my post was in jest. Just a reference to me being a kinky freak and a subby.

 

Oh, ok. I think being submissive all the time would be incredibly boring. There is a time to dominate and a time to submit. Why just focus on one aspect?

 

It's not like I have something against women's rights or civil rights or anything else. I DO feel a lot of times people who are NOT being discriminated against whine about their rights. I find it offensive when Feminazis rant and rave about all their hardships, when women before them actually HAD hardships.

 

Evryone has hardships, but you're right, things were much worse way back when when Chrsitainity dominated everything. This doesn't mean that people, in whatever group they happen to fall, should stop complaining, though. No, far from it. As the FFRF likes to say, "It Pays to Complain." It's because of activists complaing about the unconstitutional flag-worshipping Nazi-ish Pledge that we had such an awesome decision against it.

 

The feminist movement in many sects has become a man-hating joke...not about equality but about bashing men.

 

Any movement will have it's detractors. It doesn't make their goal wrong. Atheists are maligned left and right because of our support for the separation of church and state.

 

The ones that hate men and want only rights for women and want to downgrade what men have to below them are looking for revenge. They think they're feminists, but they're not. A true feminist wants equality for both sexes, not favortism for one over the pther. That's just as bad as the old sexist system.

[Asimov]

Well mostly my post was in jest. Just a reference to me being a kinky freak and a subby.

 

Oh, ok. I think being submissive all the time would be incredibly boring. There is a time to dominate and a time to submit. Why just focus on one aspect?

 

Because I prefer being a subby. (And Tom would never let me Dom him...which is part of what I love about him lol.) Different strokes for different folks. Not everybody likes the same thing sexually. For me, vanilla sex is a boring concept. And I don't get anything out of being the "dominant" partner. Besides, I'm pretty dominant in my day to day life with other people, I think the subby thing balances me out.

 

I like anal.....

 

Big surprise...I know.

[Reverend AtheiStar]

OMG we agree on something! Let's call the press! hehe. I completely agree with this. the man haters don't wish equality, they just want the other side to dominate for awhile.

 

lol... I don't blame them, though. I feel sorry for them. They come from abusive relationships where the men that they associate with all men are true assholes. It's like someone getting sexually abused by Christains and ending up hating the whole lot of them. It's wrong, but understandable.

 

 

 

Well mostly my post was in jest. Just a reference to me being a kinky freak and a subby.

 

Oh, ok. I think being submissive all the time would be incredibly boring. There is a time to dominate and a time to submit. Why just focus on one aspect?

 

Because I prefer being a subby. (And Tom would never let me Dom him...which is part of what I love about him lol.) Different strokes for different folks. Not everybody likes the same thing sexually. For me, vanilla sex is a boring concept. And I don't get anything out of being the "dominant" partner. Besides, I'm pretty dominant in my day to day life with other people, I think the subby thing balances me out.

 

I like anal.....

 

Big surprise...I know.

 

I like to be the giver with anal. Man, is it hot! I do not, however, want anything in my butt. Call me hypocritical, but that's the way I feel. And yes, I will knock it before I try it! lol...

[ThePureOne]

The problem with Atheism is that the only thing you need to have in order to make you an Atheist is the lack of belief in all gods and goddesses. Everything else is pretty much up in the air.

 

I think that's a benefit, not a problem. And the "everything else" isn't particularly hard to figure out.

 

When I was a kid, on Christmas Eve my dad used to announce he was going to light a big fire in the fireplace, so Santa wouldn't be able to come down the chimney. My sister and I would scream NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!, he would laugh hysterically, and my mom would get mad at him. Before Easter he would say the Easter Bunny got run over on the freeway. Same reactions all around.

 

Whether fundy or atheist, I think anyone who deliberately kills the Santa magic for a child out of some concern that it will have untoward effects in the future is wound a little tight for my taste.

 

For my part, I will gleefully continue the family tradition of messing with kids' minds.

[Reverend AtheiStar]

The problem with Atheism is that the only thing you need to have in order to make you an Atheist is the lack of belief in all gods and goddesses. Everything else is pretty much up in the air.

Whether fundy or atheist, I think anyone who deliberately kills the Santa magic for a child out of some concern that it will have untoward effects in the future is wound a little tight for my taste.

 

For my part, I will gleefully continue the family tradition of messing with kids' minds.

 

There was no killing of "Santa magic" as it was never supported in the first place. It would have had to have had a birth in order to kill it. We kept it just the same as Santa, nonexistent. We just couldn't see a reason to start the cycle of lies for the sake of tradition. It made absolutely no sense and, quite franky, seemed immoral. Anyone who would, to take the converse position, take a serious issue like this so lightly is wound a little too loose for my taste.

[Reverend AtheiStar]

I can't believe this issue is still being discussed. It's like the thread that wouldn't die.

 

He said something I felt needed a response. I will not back down from replying even if I have to do this for a very, very long time. My Dad was sure my Atheism would be a phase. It's been almost ten years now.

[Reverend AtheiStar]

I can't believe this issue is still being discussed. It's like the thread that wouldn't die.

 

He said something I felt needed a response. I will not back down from replying even if I have to do this for a very, very long time. My Dad was sure my Atheism would be a phase. It's been almost ten years now.

 

I was just making an observation. I've never seen a discussion about santa claus on a debate forum go on this long.

 

Woo hoo! I'll have to take credit for the great bulk of its advance!

[Reverend AtheiStar]

 

 

Woo hoo! I'll have to take credit for the great bulk of its advance!

 

 

hahahaha. carry on then.

 

Ah, but the buzzards are circling overhead. The end is near. I won't support the thread by myself. It shall die a natural death.

[AgnosticBob AtheistPants]

I believe that letting my children continue to believe in the invisible trininty of Santa, Easter Bunny and Tooth Fairy may work to my benefit when they are older and I attempt to deprogram them from Christianity. Once they understand what these three fairy tales are and how they were led to believe in them for a good portion of their life, explain the reality of Christianity will be much easier. I hate lying to them now...and if it were entirely up to me, in hindsight, I'd probably never have started any of it. But I really think it's going to help explain Jesus, God and the Holy Spook in a very real way to them.

 

Edit: Sorry, I didn't read the whole thread so if someone has already brought this up, forgive my redundancy.

[Reverend AtheiStar]

I believe that letting my children continue to believe in the invisible trininty of Santa, Easter Bunny and Tooth Fairy may work to my benefit when they are older and I attempt to deprogram them from Christianity. Once they understand what these three fairy tales are and how they were led to believe in them for a good portion of their life, explain the reality of Christianity will be much easier. I hate lying to them now...and if it were entirely up to me, in hindsight, I'd probably never have started any of it. But I really think it's going to help explain Jesus, God and the Holy Spook in a very real way to them.

 

Edit: Sorry, I didn't read the whole thread so if someone has already brought this up, forgive my redundancy.

 

It's all been said many, many times. I'm with you on the lying, that's one of the biggest reasons we didn't perpetuate the myth. But yes, it does make a good parallel once the spell is broken. Still, I'd rather start with and continue with complete honesty. I fully believe that.

[Gnosis of Disbelief]

This is clearly the Thread That Will Not Die.

[Reverend AtheiStar]

This is clearly the Thread That Will Not Die.

 

I thought it was dead a week ago. I guess it's just one of those topics. It really has been discussed to death, though -- even if it it's still going.

[Ouroboros]

IT'S A MIRACLE!

 

The Topic was dead, and is now alive! Gaawd raised it from the void and the extremely unpleasant place called HelluvaFarDownInThreadHistory. Maybe we should call it Santa Crispus?

[Amethyst]

IT'S A MIRACLE!

 

The Topic was dead, and is now alive! Gaawd raised it from the void and the extremely unpleasant place called HelluvaFarDownInThreadHistory. Maybe we should call it Santa Crispus?

 

Santa Crispus? Almost sounds like a Christmas treat.

[Ouroboros]

Yummy. A Chocolate Bunny to celebrate the Cute Bunny at Easter. The Santa Crispus Cookie as Christmas to celebrate Father Christmas. And the Tooth Fairy Smoothie to celebrate... heck when is the Tooth Fairy Holiday?

 

Speaking about childrens belief.

 

Yesterday I explained some of the history behind how Santa Clause came to. Especially how he is illustrated, with the clothes, hat etc. It comes part (or to a large part) from and old belief in Scandinavia about the gnome. Santa Clause looks exactly like the gnomes, with hat and coat etc. Only that gnomes have gray clothes... and that's the color Santa had 100 years ago. (IIRC, It was changed by Coke to red) Anywho, these gnomes are evil (or a bit vicious, not trustworthy). You have to stay on their good side or they will mess up your life and kill your lifestock. They live under the foundation to the house. And one way of pleasing them is to give them a "gift"... guess what? Cookies and milk. You place it outside the door of your house over night to please them. Anyway, when I told my youngest daughter, I explained it's just folklore, a tale and superstitious idea, invented, not real.. All of it... she got scared anyway. This morning I found a couple of notes in the kitchen with fruits on them, notes saying: "To the gnome, please be nice to us."

 

Well, what can I say, I insisted the gnomes don't exist, but it scared her anyway.

[Reverend AtheiStar]

Yummy. A Chocolate Bunny to celebrate the Cute Bunny at Easter. The Santa Crispus Cookie as Christmas to celebrate Father Christmas. And the Tooth Fairy Smoothie to celebrate... heck when is the Tooth Fairy Holiday?

 

Speaking about childrens belief.

 

Yesterday I explained some of the history behind how Santa Clause came to. Especially how he is illustrated, with the clothes, hat etc. It comes part (or to a large part) from and old belief in Scandinavia about the gnome. Santa Clause looks exactly like the gnomes, with hat and coat etc. Only that gnomes have gray clothes... and that's the color Santa had 100 years ago. (IIRC, It was changed by Coke to red) Anywho, these gnomes are evil (or a bit vicious, not trustworthy). You have to stay on their good side or they will mess up your life and kill your lifestock. They live under the foundation to the house. And one way of pleasing them is to give them a "gift"... guess what? Cookies and milk. You place it outside the door of your house over night to please them. Anyway, when I told my youngest daughter, I explained it's just folklore, a tale and superstitious idea, invented, not real.. All of it... she got scared anyway. This morning I found a couple of notes in the kitchen with fruits on them, notes saying: "To the gnome, please be nice to us."

 

Well, what can I say, I insisted the gnomes don't exist, but it scared her anyway.

 

Kids get scared easy. My son wakes up with nightmares, sometimes. Telling him about gnomes that live under the house might get under his skin. One thing that really got to him, though, and this was out of left field, were those little colored blobs in What the Bleep Do We Know? He woke up terrified after watching that.