True Follower's Of Christ

[monsterfeets]

About the art thing, I know i'm a little late here .... I think Amy your art speaks very clearly about the reasons you believe so strongly in what you do. In the other thread I speak against emotionalism as fact. But that's not to say emotion is bad. And your art speaks volumes more than you could in words about how you truly feel.

 

However I dislike the ideal of a knight riding in on a white horse to whisk all our troubles away. I just appreciate much more the contrast of pain and joy, dark and light. I cannot see anything as purely evil, there is a balance that runs through everything. We need the dark to understand the light, we need to hurt sometimes to become strong. The whole beautiful, bittersweet thing about being human is that even the most fleeting moments of joy can make all the pain of life worth it.

 

Here's a painting from when I was a christian, but it means even more to me now:

(sorry for the huge watermarks)

 

Caption: "It hurts to open them (but it makes things so much brighter)"

 

You can paint pictures of creatures that don't even exist and portray a reality through them.

This is what mythology is at it's core. A thing does not need to be tangibly real to carry truth or meaning. To try and make them into reality defies the whole point. The point is not that they are real. But that the message is meaningful. Art, literature and myth are subjective, not objective. They give us a means to explore ourselves. By defining yourself and reality with a myth you are forgetting the world around us, the people here, the earth that is our home, is what is real, what is the most important thing we have. No person on earth *should* be expected to live up to an ideal. They are merely imaginary things in our head. If you hold everyone up to an impossible standard of perfection, you will always be dissapointed. Instead of just appreciating them for all their imperfections. Imperfection is what makes things interesting. Just like in art, if everything was photo realistic, we might as well just take pictures.

 

I realize you don't see it as a myth. Believe me, I wish some of my creatures that I come up with were real. I would love to sit down and chat over tea with them more than anything in the world. But the only place I can do that is in my head, and on paper. Draw pictures of it, write stories about it, sing about it. Follow it in your heart. But don't forget who you are. Without you, your art would not exist. You are meaningful and worthwhile with or without Jesus to validate your existance. He is an extension of you and that is how he lives. It is you that defines him. Not one Christian is just like another.

[Abiyoyo]

First things first, I am going to make a very strong request to all participants that we not let this thread go down hill as fast as the "Gripe against Jesus" thread degraded. If you want to get into a tit-for-tat debate about Bible verses please BYOB and go back to the "Gripe" thread, it seems better suited for endless quibbling.

 

YoYo and Amy Marie, thank you for responding to my query. Now that the discussion has begun I'd like to explain why this question is so important to me.

 

It is my firm belief that the way we think about ourselves, about ourselves in relationship to the Sacred ONEness (that Christians call God) and the way we think about this Sacredness impacts our concrete world. Our thoughts in these areas impact:

• The way we think about and treat ourselves
  
• The way we think about and treat other human beings
  
• The way we think about and treat the earth.... etc...
  

One does not need to look very far to see the results of "TRUE" anything dogma. The planes flown into the World Trade Center are a perfect example of "TRUE" dogmatic thinking. The men who drove those planes into the World Trade Centers considered themselves TRUE followers of Allah.

 

So... this whole TRUE Christian thing bothers me on a very deep level.

 

YoYo and Amy Marie, I have one more question for you before I answer your posts above.

 

If someone is not a TRUE follower of Christ, a TRUE Christian .... does that person go to hell?

 

Intersesting question. I dont know that. It does say that anyone who does not confess His name to others, He will not confess ours to the Father. There are many points and cushions of church that would debate that question until they are blue in the face. I believe that Isaiah is correct when God says that He will write a new law in our hearts. Round about 700 years later, Christ came along. I believe that we be judged by our heart and what we know "deep down" in our inner self and thoughts, what is and isnt true. Thats why no matter what happens and what facts or articles, books, knowledge I gain here; I can never deny Him because of my personal circumstances with life.

 

I also believe that we already live in hell. I 'll explain if requested.

[Antlerman]

Without you, your art would not exist. You are meaningful and worthwhile with or without Jesus to validate your existance. He is an extension of you and that is how he lives. It is you that defines him. Not one Christian is just like another.

Monsterfeets, you truly garner my greatest respect and admiration in both your gift of words and vision. Languages define our views, and art and mythology broaden our vocabularies and consequently our abilities to explore the universe we exist in. To put boundaries around it, is to deny ourselves access to the limitless.

[Golden Meadows]

About the art thing, I know i'm a little late here .... I think Amy your art speaks very clearly about the reasons you believe so strongly in what you do. In the other thread I speak against emotionalism as fact. But that's not to say emotion is bad. And your art speaks volumes more than you could in words about how you truly feel.

 

However I dislike the ideal of a knight riding in on a white horse to whisk all our troubles away.

 

However I dislike the ideal of a knight riding in on a white horse to whisk all our troubles away.

I can see the danger you point out but only ami knows for if it applies to her. She sure is in good company with this kind of imagery! If the Monkees could sing "You once thought of me as a white knight on a steed. Now you know how happy I can be" then it must be ok! - so maybe ami hasn't grown old in spirit like some of us. As a child of Arthur I have to defend this imagery :-)

[monsterfeets]

Without you, your art would not exist. You are meaningful and worthwhile with or without Jesus to validate your existance. He is an extension of you and that is how he lives. It is you that defines him. Not one Christian is just like another.

Monsterfeets, you truly garner my greatest respect and admiration in both your gift of words and vision. Languages define our views, and art and mythology broaden our vocabularies and consequently our abilities to explore the universe we exist in. To put boundaries around it, is to deny ourselves access to the limitless.

 

Well thank you I see she is speaking from her heart. I think that is a good thing. If it makes her happy I wouldn't want to take it away from her by any means but I know it can lead to a lot of dead ends and frustration if you let your imagination become more important than the real world. I've been there many times. Ofcourse at the time you don't always realize it's just your imagination. I just hope she learns to find the balance between the two, both things are important and rely on one another.

 

However I dislike the ideal of a knight riding in on a white horse to whisk all our troubles away.

I can see the danger you point out but only ami knows for if it applies to her. She sure is in good company with this kind of imagery! If the Monkees could sing "You once thought of me as a white knight on a steed. Now you know how happy I can be" then it must be ok! - so maybe ami hasn't grown old in spirit like some of us. As a child of Arthur I have to defend this imagery :-)

 

Oh the imagery is fine. As long as it's recognized for what it is. I mean, if we were all sitting around for our white nights we'd never bother with real people As a perfectionist I totally understand though, nothing wrong with wishing or reaching for ideals. I just have a soft spot for villians and anti-heros I think. They are always much more interesting. I have noticed though that Jesus can either be portrayed as a white night hero or as the anti-hero underdog type. To me it was his humanity that attracted me to him, not his divinity or perfection. I always thought it was odd how everyone pictured him the way they do even though he was not supposed to have been handsome and that it probably didnt happen as dramatically as say, The Passion of the Christ, portrayed it. It's obvious the church, art, literature and film has played a huge role in how we see Jesus in modern times. I get the feeling it's a lot different than how it really was, if he existed. Or even how the original christians saw him.

[julian]

Intersesting question. I dont know that. It does say that anyone who does not confess His name to others, He will not confess ours to the Father. There are many points and cushions of church that would debate that question until they are blue in the face. I believe that Isaiah is correct when God says that He will write a new law in our hearts. Round about 700 years later, Christ came along. I believe that we be judged by our heart and what we know "deep down" in our inner self and thoughts, what is and isnt true. Thats why no matter what happens and what facts or articles, books, knowledge I gain here; I can never deny Him because of my personal circumstances with life.

 

I also believe that we already live in hell. I 'll explain if requested.

 

The Bible is pretty clear. It says that "he who does not believe will be condemned." (Mark 16:16; there are more passages that say the same thing) Basically, if you actually believe in the Bible, you must also think that people who do not believe in Jesus or Christianity will be "condemned". That Christianity claims that non-believers will go to hell is not even disputable.

 

Next, you can very easily deny "him". All you have to do is look past your present perception of your life. If the only crutch keeping up your faith in Christianity is "personal circumstances", that is quite the weak crutch, and IMO, a crutch that isn't helping.

[Antlerman]

I am bumping this thead back into place to pick up the overdue conversation with Amy that is beginning to resume over in a somewhat unrealated thread. That thread is being closed due to unrelated topic content. The content is relevant here as far as I can tell. Refer to the post here and following to the end of thread for Amy to pick up her responses from:

 

http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?s=&a...st&p=190953

 

Amy I am obviously interested in a response from you to my points, and am highly interested in your response to with OM posted here: http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?s=&a...st&p=191027

 

Hans, is this an acceptable location for this discussion?

[Open_Minded]

I am bumping this thead back into place to pick up the overdue conversation with Amy that is beginning to resume over in a somewhat unrealated thread. That thread is being closed due to unrelated topic content. The content is relevant here as far as I can tell. Refer to the post here and following to the end of thread for Amy to pick up her responses from:

 

http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?s=&a...st&p=190953

 

Amy I am obviously interested in a response from you to my points, and am highly interested in your response to with OM posted here: http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?s=&a...st&p=191027

 

Hans, is this an acceptable location for this discussion?

 

Thanks Antlerman .... I'm in full agreement.

 

Amy - we're waiting ....

[Open_Minded]

Amy - your paintings are full of dark and morose colors. Your choice of color combinations alone screams suffering. In the first link there is a close up painting of the face of Jesus - again ghastly white. The suffering eyes.

What colors should you use when you portray suffering? Then it must be a good painting because that's exactly what I was trying to portray.

I rest my case.

 

 

OOOPS .... OH WAIT there's more...

 

I have to tell you Amy - your paintings are intently focused on the suffering of Christ. You are totally obsessed with the cross - it actually makes my stomach turn when I look at those paintings. I wonder to myself what type of misery you live in - what type of misery do you create for yourself - so you can convince yourself that you are suffering enough for this version of Christ.

 

Holy! What do think I do? Walk around in sackcloth and beat myself with a whip all day? The Christ I know understands our pain and suffering but He doesn't make me punish myself. What do think OP that I live in a nuns cell with black curtains? You really don't know me. That's all I can say.

 

You are right Amy, I wouldn’t know you if I met you on the street. What I know of you speaks through your paintings (and well all these varied and many threads you’ve been involved in). And the fact that what I know of you (through your paintings and the words you’ve written in these threads) is sadness, grief, suffering – should say something to you.

 

Let’s review just one aspect of the way people on this board know you, Amy. For the moment – let’s leave your paintings out of this.

 

How many threads have you been involved in, Amy? I’ve lost track – but I can tell you this – you stand out among the other literalists who have been involved in this forum. I can’t remember another literalist who has come in here and put themselves through the regime you have endured. So... you’re asking.... what does this have to do with wearing a sackcloth and beating oneself with a whip?

 

Well... it seems to me that you’ve been whipped around plenty on this board, Amy. How many times have you told members of this board that they are being mean to you.

 

Did it ever once occur to you that you brought this pain upon yourself?

 

Dear Amy – what exactly did you expect? YOU chose to come onto this board. Every single thread you’ve been involved in you have been involved in by CHOICE. I know I have done my part to try and connect with you – and yet you seem to prefer suffering over connection. Following is one example of a post where I tried to steer the conversation in a direction where we could both find common ground and you chose to take it in a direction where there would be conflict.

 

Post trying to lead the discussion towards contemplative Christianity – something we both seem to have in common.

http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?s=&a...st&p=183125

 

Amy’s continued focus on the resurrection:

http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?s=&a...st&p=183593

 

My response:

http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?s=&a...st&p=183644

 

Notice I start the response with the following – still trying to move the conversation to some common ground:

 

For whatever reason, there seems a need for you to discuss the resurrection in more depth. To be honest I had hoped we could move on to the contemplative dimension of Christianity (since this whole area is fascinating for me). But, it seems important to you to fully explore the resurrection, so maybe we can delve into contemplative christianity at a later date

 

And then ... Amy ... instead of letting things go with the resurrection. Instead of calmly “agreeing to disagree” you start yet another thread – this one – the one that is being closed because it is going absolutely nowhere – to try and convince (yet again) a board full of ex-Christians that there is validity in looking at the resurrection as an actual flesh/blood event.

 

And now – after all this time you have been beat up – you have been whipped. You tell us we are mean and see nothing on your part that led to this moment of wearing a sackcloth and being beat up.

 

Yes – Amy – your words on this board; your actions on this board; and your paintings have all convinced me that you figuratively wear a sackcloth and beat yourself with a whip. And no – I find no pleasure or feeling of conquest in this – I simply feel sad for you.

 

______________

 

I Will paste this in the True Followers thread as well - we can continue the conversation there.

[Open_Minded]

One other thing:

 

Antlerman posted a few things yesterday that went unanswered. I'd like to see you respond to his posts as well. You can find the posts here:

 

http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?s=&a...st&p=190999

http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?s=&a...st&p=191003

 

QUOTE(amy marie @ Jun 26 2006, 04:49 AM)

 

How do you appear to me? I think you all mean well. You're trying to point me in a direction you think is better for me but I just don't see it that way. You're all wondering why? Hasn't she got a brain in her head?

 

I'll tell ya...hopeless, simply hopeless.

Quit it with the insincere "I'm hopless" ploy Amy. I see through this. Listen to what you just said here. "I think you all mean well. You're trying to point me in a direction you think is better for me but I just don't see it that way." Ditto back to you. The difference is I don't put you on some other side of the wall like you do to me and eveyone else, and see your desitny in eternity is endless punishment because you "just don't see it that way." However, that is what you have your god do to us for you. Sad.

 

More accurately said, this is what you have your God do to us in order for you to not have to do the hard work of searching for deeper truth than theology. It is YOU who is sending me and everyone else to hell Amy, not God. YOU.

[Lycorth]

Yes – Amy – your words on this board; your actions on this board; and your paintings have all convinced me that you figuratively wear a sackcloth and beat yourself with a whip. And no – I find no pleasure or feeling of conquest in this – I simply feel sad for you.

 

And I cannot agree more...

[Asimov]

Everyone:

 

I haven't been here because my house was flooded. I had to move and so on.

 

Wrath of God.

[Fweethawt]

Everyone:

 

I haven't been here because my house was flooded. I had to move and so on.

Wrath of God.

 

That's gotta suck. Even Noah, the pervert that he was, was given ample warning to prepare.

[Open_Minded]

You may not believe this, Amy, but I am sorry your house flooded. And, I am glad to see you back on this board.

OP wondered why I stuck around and "took the whipping" implying I enjoyed this suffering. No. I never enjoyed it. I was hoping that I could convince at least one person to return to the faith they once knew.

This may also be hard for you to believe - but the reason I've been so hard on you is because I see more potential in you than I do most literalists that dance in here and try to "save" the "lost souls" of Ex-C. It wasn't always the case. When you first came here - I was reserved about whether I could have an honest and connecting conversation with you. But, then in the True Followers thread you posted the following... http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?s=&a...st&p=181151

 

Oh! Well my heart tells me that Jesus is so kind and compassionate that He'll just break down, take off His crown, step off the judgement seat and say, "Awwww shucks. Forget about it. Come on in!" And then give everyone a big hug. I wouldn't want to see anyone go to Hell.

See.. that post told me you were willing to step down off your "judgment seat" and accept that there are other VALID ways of approaching spirituality.

 

And yet .... for all you said in that post .... you've conducted yourself in a manner which states that any other approach to spirituality (besides your own) is NOT valid. By the end of your time on this board another member (Antlerman) wrote the following.....http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?s=&showtopic=9610&view=findpost&p=191409

 

Amy, we have shared with you how we see things differently.

You however are unable to acknowledge the validity of others beliefs as being equally true and meaningful to them as yours are to you.

 

Are we more gracious in spirit than you? Are our systems “better” than yours because we are able to do this, and your does not allow for a generous spirit?

 

The question all of us have asked is have you learned anything from us? Your answer seemed to be to the effect of, “I’ve learned more why I believe the way I do.” Not a good answer Amy. By that in itself you have approached your discussions with us with a Closed_Minded position. It is not possible for someone to engage in dialog like this with others, covering as much territory as we have with you, bringing all our own unique perceptions to you, and you walk with only your own beliefs being confirmed. This is not growth Amy.

 

I tried to find a common ground and did but people kept pressing me to stop believing the Bible contained the literal words of Jesus. I cannot. Because I believe Jesus is speaking in the scriptures this brings up many questions about what I think concerning your own religious belieF. I do and have tried to respect all of you, maybe not perfectly, but because I believe in the Bible, you took it as though I didn't respect you.

Again - Amy - the response you've received is NOT about your belief in the Bible. I am Christian, I believe in the Bible and yet I've been able to peacefully co-exist on this board for months. The response you've received is about a lack of respect for other's beliefs - as displayed in the following ways:

1. Coming here to "save" people (as you - yourself have stated). This very attitude shouts a world of DISRESPECT. If you feel we need "saving" then our own beliefs are NOT valid.
   
2. Everytime the questions got too difficult to handle - you ignored them, responded by saying people were being "mean", or moved to an emotional (refusing to approach things rationally) stance. This is disrespectful because it belittles the very real and VALID points of views from other people.
   

You may - or may not believe this. But, I accept that you have every right to view the Bible as you do. That is WHY I tried to move the conversation away from the literal resurrection of Jesus onto Contemplative Christianity. I WAS - and still AM - willing to let sleeping dogs lie. You've expressed an interest in contemplative Christianity - it is an interest I share. I tried to steer the conversation in a direction we could both find common ground. And your response? You started a self-whipping thread titled The Christ Reality ~ The Resurrection, Why I believe in the literal Resurrection....

 

And then, Amy, I even tried to warn you about what was coming - what you were setting yourself up for. See the following.... at the beginning of the Christ Reality thread you asked that we "respect" each other. I responded: http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?s=&a...st&p=183879

Amy ... in the name of respecting "each other" ... you need to take a good long look at WHY you are here. Seriously. How many threads have you been involved in, only to abandon when the waters got too deep.

 

WHY are you here ... ???? What exactly is it you want to prove with this thread????

 

You're on a board full of ex-christians. Do you honestly believe that ANY argument you could drag out to support a literal understanding of the resurrection would carry any weight with anyone? Everyone on this board can predict....

Your lack of respect is NOT about your belief in the Bible. Your lack of respect is about starting a discussion you couldn't win for the sake of proving to a board full of ex-Christians that a literal resurrection is valid - INSTEAD of choosing to just let it be. You were in another thread - you'd been offered another line of discussion that would have found common ground and YOU CHOSE to pick a fight. THAT is the lack of respect that is being challenged here - NOT your belief in the Bible. Believe what you want - really I don't care. All I ask is that you give me and everyone else on this board the same respect.

 

See the bottom line is - by your own admission - you came here trying to CHANGE others beliefs. You didn't come here to try to UNDERSTAND beliefs different from your own (that would be respectful). You came here assuming you had the truth and every other point of view was less "true" than your own. That is the attitude we are calling you out on - that is attitude is DISRESPECTFUL.

 

Perhaps on this forum I shouldn't expect to relate heart to heart. Everyone always wanted me to be a person of the intellect and thought I was too emotional whereas I thought we could discuss these issues like a bunch of frineds sitting around the table and drinking coffee instead of name calling and ridiculing the new kid on the block.

You know what, Amy, if you truly had an interest in relating "heart to heart" your approach would have been different. You would have come in here to learn - not to preach. You would have come in here to understand not to convert. You said from the get-go your interest was (and still is) to "convince at least one person to return to the faith they once knew".

 

So the bit about my art and the feeling that this is something we can really "gang up on Amy" about was the final cut. See I don't enjoy suffering after all. I had enough.

 

There will be no more arguing form me.

 

Good - now I have a heart-to-heart challenge for you. Are you willing to stay and learn? Are you willing to stay and try to understand a different point of view besides your own? Are you willing to try very hard to accept different approaches to life and spiritual seeking as VALID as your own.

 

Amy - you like John of the Cross. So do I. Following is one of my favorite poems written by John of the Cross.

 

To reach satisfaction in all

desire satisfaction in nothing.

To come to possess all

desire the possession of nothing.

To arrive at being all

desire to be nothing.

To come to the knowledge of all

desire the knowledge of nothing.

To come to enjoy what you have not

you must go by a way in which you enjoy not.

To come to the knowledge you have not

you must go by a way in which you know not.

To come to the possession you have not

you must go by a way in which you possess not.

To come to be what you are not

you must go by a way in which you are not.

 

At some point along the spiritual journey, Amy, we must ALL be willing to let go of that which we know - in order to find "the knowledge you have not".

 

This poem is one of my favorites because it speaks of the classic mystical teaching of detachment - of detaching ourselves from that which we know - that which we are comfortable with.

 

You are comfortable with a literalist approach. On a personal level I've not challenged that approach with any sense of joy. I've challenged it because YOU keep bringing it up. NOW the question is - are you willing to just let it be and learn about other people's beliefs. Are you willing to "go by a way in which you know not" (not in order to stop reading the Bible the way you do) but simply in order to grow - to learn about other people - to understand other people?

 

I honestly hope the answer is "YES".

[Asuryan]

Again - Amy - the response you've received is NOT about your belief in the Bible. I am Christian, I believe in the Bible and yet I've been able to peacefully co-exist on this board for months. The response you've received is about a lack of respect for other's beliefs

 

 

 

Me and Mr. Grinch have tried to tell her this same thing on one of these threads. I've asked her why, in her opinion, we get along fine with people like amanda and you, OM - but we don't get along with amy. However, as could be expected, she didn't answer us. Certainly it's much cozier to just think it is because "she's the new kid on the block" - that way, she won't need to ask herself if she did something wrong, it is much more comfortable to just ASSume she CAN'T do anything wrong since god is with her.

 

 

 

I thought that she was here to try and understand us better, willing to see us as fellow human beings that can potentially be as right as she is about our beliefs (or lack thereof). I thought that at the beginning. It is true, her language is loving, but the way she answers spitefully and sarcastically whenever people point at her reasoning flaws, makes me wonder if it could be just a façade. There is no love in someone who wants to *change* others, without even wanting to understand them and learn how they came to follow a certain line of thought first. She seems eager... but when she speaks to me, I don't feel like a person to her. I feel like a sheep who must be guided back into the fold.

 

...that, though, would explain just WHY she keeps avoiding every rational discussion and dodging our questions.

 

She isn't here to understand us. She is here, in her own words, to bring us back to the faith.

 

If she answered our questions using her reason, she couldn't help but accept that what we're saying (about flood and genocide and odin) makes perfectly sense. This won't allow her to bring us back to the faith.

 

So, to bring us back to the faith, she can only ignore our questions, and this is why she keeps ignoring us - and using the only weapon that she assumes would work on HER if she left christianity... emotionalism, tearful stories, etc. If she were here to learn and discuss with fellow human beings, she would answer. Since she's here to bring sinners back to the fold, and her answers would only make things more difficult for her, she won't.

 

 

 

Last but not least... amy, why did you get so angry and sad at Openminded's opinions? She is entitled to her opinions, right?

You always say that you want your art to do the talking for you, that you keep posting your stories and paintings because you wish them to communicate something about you and your feelings to us. And then, when your art talks to us, you get angry because this is not what you thought they expressed?

 

"See my paintings, they express my feelings! I let them do the talking for me."

 

"So you see yourself as a weak woman, unable to stand on your own feet without jesus, and jesus as a sort of pale, suffering, sad undead?"

 

"...what? No! You should read my paintings as I read them!"

 

...sorry, it doesn't work that way. We see what we see... that is the point with art. Art speaks for itself... and sometimes, it says things that the artist would've rather avoided revealing. (gah, I hope this verbal construction was right.)

 

But OpenMinded didn't want to offend you, so why did you react so badly, even thinking about getting away from the boards? ...Why are you SO wounded by OM's sincere opinion of your paintings?

 

 

 

I want you to stay. But not in the way you've stayed until now, amy.

 

I want you to stay, not to convert us back. I want you to stay to understand us and discuss with us as fellow human beings - I want you to stay and start answering all of those honest, sincere questions we asked you, hoping you would answer, wishing to hear your point of view (which never arrived).

 

If you aren't willing, or aren't able, to do so, if there is NO WAY you will use your mind and not only your faith to speak with us, if there is NO WAY you'll ever see us as something different from sheep, from stupid beasts you must correct as if you were some kind of sweet teacher, just go away. You will spare us and yourself a lot of negative feelings.

[garrisonjj]

Awww! C'mon now!!!!

 

Nobody wants to answer my simple questions concerning christianity and what it means to be a True Follower ?

 

It's right there in black and white, and it has nothing at all to do with some sort of fluffy personal relationship with a bloody dude hanging on a cross.

 

C'mon, give it a shot, believers. What ever happened with the good'ol "Be ye prapared to give an answer...." line from the good book? Or did you throw that verse out too, in favor of more of your made-up dooblecocky?

 

I pick up my fuckin cross every day and it has nothing to do with imiginary gods.

[Antlerman]

Everyone:

 

I haven't been here because my house was flooded. I had to move and so on.

I’m sorry to hear about that. I hope there was not too much damage and you can recover from it without a terrible ordeal.

 

I don't know if this will be my last post. I'll see how you respond.

 

I believe I need to leave this forum because, especially in the past few days, I have been totally misunderstood. mostly concerning my art. People have read things into my illustrations that just are not true about me. This is most upsetting because none of you really know me.

From one artist to another: I understand what drives your art. That there is a sense of sorrow in your art does not escape me. I write music and it is that angst between joy and sorrow that drives the creations. Your spirit has not escaped my attention from your very first post through to now.

 

As much as I am able to experience moments of ecstasy in living life, it is rare when my art is expressive of those impressions. Though I don’t know you personally on a one on one basis in the real world, I have always sensed that angst of sorrow and hope in your spirit. In this sense I have known something real of you. One thing that I have always valued about you is that there is zero façade with you. You sincerity is truly refreshing. Even though I may not share the same perceptions as you, I have respect for you.

 

I was hoping that I could convince at least one person to return to the faith they once knew.

One thought I’d like you to consider on this: You would really not want us to return to the faith we once had. How we approached faith back then did not work for us. It’s all about growth in the individual. What you should wish for us is that we are able to find a faith that works for us. Obviously you feel Jesus is a wonderful and you would like to see us find something meaningful for us through faith in him, but you should also recognize that they may not be possible because of horrible past experiences with that. It may not be possible for someone to see Jesus in a positive light after suffering abuse in that system. In this case, you should hope for us that we are able to now find anything meaningful in life that promotes a spirit of peace and unity in the world. That is about us, not one object of faith. That is a meaningful wish for us from you.

 

You have shown me some positive things about faith that I had not seen in this light before. It may not manifest in the way you may hope it would, that I would become a church attending Christian as you understand they should be, but nonetheless the power of faith in people’s life being manifest has helped me to be less critical, dismissive, and resentful of all religious belief. It helps me to see kernels of “truth” that are meaningful to people everywhere, and that there is a legitimate purpose for belief in people’s heart.

 

The only thing I have ever asked of you Amy, is that as I can hold my hand out to you and respect you in our differences, that you can do the same for those who see things differently. It does neither you, nor me, nor others anything helpful to judge each other as “wrong”. It is not valid to say that for me of you, or you of me. I know that is difficult for you to understand, but I hope you will contemplate this for the sake of unity and peace in yourself and with others.

 

I tried to find a common ground and did but people kept pressing me to stop believing the Bible contained the literal words of Jesus. I cannot.

This is not what I have been doing Amy. I have only ever said that you should consider your “reading” of them to be the only understanding. This is undeniably not the case in light of the 30,000 different Christian denominations. Understanding this helps you to relax the critical views that promote separation between people – such as us.

 

I do and have tried to respect all of you, maybe not perfectly, but because I believe in the Bible, you took it as though I didn't respect you.

Again, not because you believe the Bible, but because you view your reading as the same as perfect understanding. That pushes people away, and creates a wall of separation. I can accept that your beliefs are valid and helpful to you, but you cannot do the same for others. What makes that difference possible for me, where it’s not possible for you? My answer is that it is because I KNOW I don’t have an absolute corner on “truth”. In light of 30,000 different denominations of faith in Christianity, the odds are extremely against you having that either.

 

Perhaps on this forum I shouldn't expect to relate heart to heart.

I’ve sensed and appreciated your heart, have you mine? This expectation or hope is totally within your control.

 

Everyone always wanted me to be a person of the intellect and thought I was too emotional whereas I thought we could discuss these issues like a bunch of frineds sitting around the table and drinking coffee instead of name calling and ridiculing the new kid on the block.

I have not had this expectation that you be something you are not. I have wanted you to hear my heart and discuss these important views with each other. I am hoping still we will be able to have that conversation outside getting drawn into intellectual debates that cannot be won by either party.

 

If not, then do understand that nothing we do in life is ever wasted.

[Ouroboros]

Sorry for your flooding Amy, I'm sure God has a purpose doing it. In the end everything will work out to the best. Maybe he's just testing your faith.

 

Good the computer wasn't ruined!

 

We've had our share of floodings, and it isn't pretty. Especially when you have to replace the floor. Aargh.

 

Anyway, good luck Amy.

[Checkmate]

Amy, I don't know if you're still around reading these HEARTFELT and SINCERE replies from us. (Open_Minded and Antlerman? You two bring tears to my eyes! ) I don't know if you'll even see my words. You may have me on ignore. But I'll say this anyway.

 

You seem offended that "we don't really KNOW you." You seem insistent that we come to KNOW the "real you." That is fine.

 

My problem/question is: WHY CAN YOU NOT SEE THAT THIS DOOR SWINGS BOTH WAYS?

 

It is not just the opinion of this old curmudgeon, know as "Mr. Grinch". EVERYONE on this board has been belaboring the point that YOU haven't made even the slightest attempt to get to know US. You have taken a perverse delight in cramming us all into a tight little box labeled "sinners and wicked people", and your "knowledge" of us has been constrained by this narrow-minded view.

 

Open_Minded has correctly pegged your troubles. You, Amy Marie, are DISRESPECTFUL. You demand respect, while denying it to us. It's offensive and it makes people see red.

 

I don't care if you stay or leave. I said that to you in the beginning and I stay true to my nature. My life will continue unabated no matter what course of action you choose.

 

However, I ask you, along with the rest of this board's members, that IF you do choose to remain, PLEASE change your disrespectful attitude towards us. We are 3-D people. Not cardboard cut-outs, internet avatars, or strawmen to be set-up and knocked down with apologetic zeal.

 

We're PEOPLE like you. And we, too, DEMAND to be "understood."

[Lycorth]

Mista Grinch says it all, again

 

Amy, you really ought to put down the Babble™, turn off the words of your pastors playing over and over in your head since Sunday, the words that tell you that all non-xians are just wicked people who want to "sin" and "hate Jeezus™" without any good reasons.

 

You really did drop the ball, quite a bit, in doing some of the understanding you seem to want from us. You preach to us as if you have all the religious knowledge of the world at your fingertips (which you have demonstrated that you do not), you dismiss our views and beliefs as automatically "evil" without trying to understand them first, and you act as if we have never heard of your religion before, when time and again we have both told you and demonstrated that we are completely familiar with it.

 

You really need to change all that if you actually are interested in civil discourse with any of us.

 

Like Grinch said, you can stay or go, and it won't change my life one bit. I have my own life to live. But if you want to stay, do a little self-examination and revamp the way you approach things.

 

Or else expect more of the same, if not worse.

[Amanda]

It's hard on Amy right now, going through a flood and all. I hope she gets over the trauma quickly and realizes there is still much to be thankful. She seems like a really nice person.

 

It seems to me that the belief in a literal hell is a way of securing a certain belief system. Those kind of consequences are quite motivating for someone to remain in their dogma. *sigh* It doesn't matter what the truth is, if that person believes it, it is reality to them. Heck, some religions get people to be human bombs, sacrificing them selves so they can be with all these virgins in an after life!

 

I hope Amy stays here. Sure, what gets said here is quite unsettling to a lot of us at first. It's hard to take it into the existing mindset all at once. We incorporate it into our existing beliefs at first, till we really have a chance to logically think about it... maybe sleep on it a few days. However, sometimes enlightenment is slower for some of us than others. It's not about just taking what someone says as Truth, but to research it for ourselves, determine it to be so out of an informed logic. Heck, I was totally surprised at what some said here! Yet the more I researched it to show that they were wrong... the more I realized they were closer to the facts than I. It doesn't mean we have to give up what we find to be beneficially meaningful teachings though. When something stands on its own, it stands.

 

Hopefully if Amy stays here, she'll realize she doesn't need to worship a God of retribution if not aligned to her pastors criteria. Maybe she'll find a God of unconditional love, and find outside sources of knowledge (besides her pastors) very empowering. Maybe she'll start assimilating all these ideas, and some will sink into her understanding, and she'll return with an open mind.

[Ouroboros]

Yeah, one can only hope. And you're absolutely right. Something I've seen many times over, change in a persons life has to come from inside. It can never be forced externally. The will to learn, understand and change comes from the core of the person, and that's what means to be open-minded.

[dibby]

Hi Amy

All the best with the house situation. For what its worth I do think a few people have been unecessarily harsh with you and maybe have ascribed motives in you that are not true. Matbe its just difficult getting to know people by typing messages on here. Communication is so much more than words....we don,t have the enjoyment of communication through body language and eye contact, for instance

 

You do say that you want to bring us back to the faith...according to your interpretation of scripture.

Do you think that Christians such as OM need to embrace evangelical christianity to be saved? Since OM is already a christian what would be the point? Or do you think that someone is not a christian until they interpret the bible in the way you do?

 

I get the feeling that you are looking for something more in your faith. And maybe the people on here could help you. From your point of view I understand why you need to try to turn us back to the "faith", coz you think we are going to hell....and why wouldn't you try if that is your belief? But Amy, many of us have been in Hell.....and that was fundamentalist christianity...it was certainly hellish for me in the end. So you could say we needed saving!

 

So, please stay if you are willing to talk with us as equals on the path of life.

[Antlerman]

Amy,

 

In response to you desiring for us to hear what you are sharing of your heart through your art, I had a good friend help me out today to make my music available for you and others here who are interested to be heard via the Internet. If my words fail to express what is in my own heart, in how I see the power and beauty of life, I hope this communicates what my words cannot:

 

A small sampling of my songs: http://www.talkingtimeline.com/music/

[Amanda]

From your point of view I understand why you need to try to turn us back to the "faith", coz you think we are going to hell....and why wouldn't you try if that is your belief? But Amy, many of us have been in Hell.....and that was fundamentalist christianity...it was certainly hellish for me in the end. So you could say we needed saving!

 

Dibby, exactly! However, I bet you didn't recognize it as such till after you were out of it. Did you know you were in hell while you were there? It's only after you're out that you know how liberated you have become. Amy won't understand till she has enough courage to start testing her beliefs, yet because she can not let go of her fear of hell... she probably won't be giving other ideas considerations, and therefore not getting out of hell's bondage.

 

Nice try in helping her you guys!

 

I have seen too many times on here, how the belief in a vengeful God who throws people (even Ghandi) in eternal fire forever, are living in immense terror. It's difficult to engage someone into considering other perspectives while they are in such a fearful state.