A forum to discuss how ex-Christians have dealt with family members, replaced the church as a place of community, reactions of your family, friends, church, acquaintances upon learning of the de-conversion, or anything else relevant to the Ex-Christian Life.
The bulk of science does not support belief in a deity, or does it? This is an open discussion area to hone your skills at supporting and understanding the various positions. Feel free to post any links of value in this important topic.
This section is confined to serious and formal debate. New topics will not appear in this section until approved by a moderator. For best results, contact a moderator before attempting to post a new topic in this section.
Had to endure a Christian funeral today - Mrs E's uncle. As ever, it was used as an opportunity to preach to the (not inconsiderable) gathering. Somehow, it seems to me to dishonour the dead and cheapen the occasion - despite it being something of which the deceased would have approved.
We can't look to 19th Century solutions for 21st Century problems. Acid rain, polluted water and air, rivers catching fire . . . do you really miss that? We need to progress, not hang onto old technologies that are so detrimental in the long haul. If all the money, tax breaks and efforts put into propping up the fossil fuel industry were turned to evolving alternative energy sources we could be there in a very short time. Again, industry is NOT building its future around the use of coal anymore. Miners and coal company execs know this, why doesn't everybody else?
Re: # 1.
You claim that all a person needs to be saved from sin is to believe that Jesus exists?
That they can be ignorant of what sin is, ignorant of their own sin and ignorant of Jesus' role as their savior from the wages of sin? But then you add that a saving faith includes repentance. So, how can they repent and be saved if they don't know what sin is and don't know that they need to repent? You've declared that a saving faith is one of repentance. Therefore, using the logic of your own argument, an unrepentant person who believes in the existence of Jesus CANNOT be saved. Unrepentant belief in Jesus does not save. That's what you wrote.
Re: # 2.
No. If you need to repent of your sin, then you must know that you need to do this. And you must do it.
Therefore, faith alone in the existence of Jesus is NOT a saving faith. (You declared this in your reply.) You do not have to do anything to keep salvation in Christ, that is agreed. But that is not what I asked you. I didn't say anything about keeping salvation. Once again, you've substituted your own wording for mine - and I specifically asked you not to do that.
You say that if you are in Christ, nothing can remove you from Christ. That is accepted.
But you cannot be in Christ if you haven't repented of your sins. If you don't repent of your sins, then you will be taking your un-forgiven sins INTO Christ. That is an impossibility. You cannot become one with Christ with your burden of sin un-repented and un-forgiven You cannot enter the Kingdom un-forgiven. You cannot be part of the body of Christ with your un-forgiven sins still upon you.
To use your turn of phrase, you cannot change the direction of your heart unless you know that you need to.
But if you are ignorant of your own sin, then you cannot have your heart changed. If God does the changing without your knowledge, then He is saving you without your knowledge. Therefore, you did not turn to Christ - you were turned towards Christ by God. The decision-making wasn't yours at all.
Please answer this, Ironhorse.
Can a person be saved without them consciously and deliberately knowing that they need to saved and then deciding to be saved?