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    •  Many apologists will say that the arguments for God’s existence should be seen as a cumulative case rather than any single argument being a reason for belief on its own. This is understandable as the majority of arguments for God are second hand inference, God of the gaps or incredulity based, so as evidence goes none of it should not be convincing on its own.

      The cumulative case works in both directions, as there are many reasons to disbelieve in a God’s existence, but any single argument may not be convincing on its own. With that in mind, here are a few of the more common reasons for disbelief and the rabbit hole of questions that these reasons lead to:  
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    • The evidence is clear that evil and suffering exist.
       
      The evidence that god exists?  No one really has any.
       
      Moreover, we know that even if a god does exist, evil and suffering obviously do not offend him.  If it did, he'd have put a stop to it by now.  After all, if he is omniscient, then he knows how much evil and suffering there is; and how broken and miserable it makes human existence.  If he really is omnibenevolent, then he wants to prevent his children from brokenness and misery.  If he really is omnipotent, then he has the ability to prevent the evil and suffering that causes brokenness and misery.  And if he really is omnipresent, then he is present every where that evil and suffering exist.
       
      If god is all of these things, and evil and suffering offend him, then why do evil and suffering continue to exist?  Why has he not moved to alleviate his own offense and save us all in the process? The simple fact that evil and suffering continue in this world is, in itself, evidence that god is not offended by it... or maybe god isn't the omni-max he's made out to be... or maybe god simply does not exist. 
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    • Animal suffering is a subject which I have thought of as simply a variation on the problem of suffering.  If God loved every one of His creations, then why would He set up a system where predators need to kill live prey to survive.  It's a system designed around killing, which is hard to reconcile with a loving, good God.
      However, I came across some other implications of animal suffering that expand the subject in several interesting ways.  The first was that if you are an old Earth creationist, so accept evolution, then the creation of every species that we see was guided by the principles of survival of the fittest, with evolutionary pressure being horrendous suffering (predation, disease, starvation, conflict etc).  The tool that God decided to use was untold misery for hundreds of millions of years, before we get to our current world of diverse life.
      The fact that thousands of T-Rex stalked the lands killing to survive, can't be seen as necessary, when they are all extinct long before His chosen people come along.  Hundreds of millions of years of creatures being torn limb from limb, before any of it mattered for our existence.  Why have that time period of suffering without benefit?
       
      I was talking to a vegan, who said God loves all of His creations, and believing that Christians should be vegan because killing His creations was against His will.  This just led to pointing to the horrors of the OT, where God requests burnt sacrifices on a regular basis, saying that the smell was pleasing to Him.  Or to the Israelites attacks on various cities, where they are told to kill all of the inhabitants, including the innocent animals.  King Saul even angered God for not murdering all of the animals, as some were taken as plunder.
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    • Hello,
      I guess our reasons for joining this site are slightly different for each person and yet perhaps desperation might be a common theme. So, with that said, a brief introduction. I have been involved with Christianity for many years. Out of sheer despair, I suppose I ended up finding this site. 
      Here is my experience with Christianity:
      The unhappiest times of my life were when I got myself involved in Christianity. I marvel at those who appear to be at ease with it all. I conclude, there's something wrong with me. 
      Never, have I felt more powerless, worthless, unfree. 
      • 9 replies
    • Failed prayer, the idea that there is an invisible being , listening to everyones thoughts is beyond laughable. 
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  • Recent Posts

    • walterpthefirst
      In case I didn't make myself clear when I talked about stars making trails on a photograph, the above is an example of what I mean.   A telescope or camera in a fixed position and making a long exposure will show the rotation of the Earth.   Which will cause the point-like stars to become drawn-out trails or streaks.   Survey telescopes automatically compensate for this, keeping their gaze firmly fixed on a target area of the sky by using motorized motion.   Their photographs will always show the stars as points and not trails.     Thanks,   Walter.
    • walterpthefirst
      On the night of 12 April 1950, the 1.2 metre Samuel Oschin telescope at Mount Palomar observatory in California was routinely going about its business, photographing the night sky for the Palomar Sky Survey.  These surveys involve mapping the sky by making overlapping photographs that slot together neatly.  So, the area of sky of interest was photographed twice on that night and then again on 18 April.  Nothing unusual was noticed at the time.   Seventy-two years passed.   Last year scientists looked again at the now digitized Palomar plates.  Looking back at old sky survey photographs isn’t an unusual thing in astronomy.  It’s done to see if there have been any significant changes in a particular region of the sky.  Briefly, there are two kinds of transient things that could be picked up by this kind of old-and-new comparison.   Supernovae and novae are different types of exploding star that burst brightly upon the scene and then fade away to obscurity.  A star that appears on an old photograph but not on a modern one might well be one of those.  Another kind of celestial explosion, but on a much smaller scale, is when a faint red dwarf star undergoes a major flare.  This usually happens unpredictably.   Other kinds of transient phenomenon like variable stars and eclipsing binaries, that fade and then brighten, do so on timescales of days to years.  No known variable or binary has a cycle of brightening and fading that lasts for decades, so a change between an old photograph and a new isn’t going to indicate the presence of these things.   But when scientists compared the old Palomar photo with a modern one of the same area, they found nine point-like sources that were not on any up-to-date photos.  A follow-up with the 10.4 metre Gran Telescopio Canarias at the Canary Islands observatory could find no trace of these anomalous sources.  This modern telescope is many times superior to the old Samuel Oschin telescope.  It has a much larger light-gathering mirror and uses highly efficient CCD’s instead of photographic film.  Therefore, it is much more sensitive to faint light and should have been able to pin down sources many magnitudes fainter than the older telescope was capable of.   But no, nothing.     The four purple rings are where dust specks have been identified.  The green rings show where those nine anomalies appeared in 1950, but not in the modern photo of the same area.   Nine sources?  What could they be?  Supernovae and novae don’t explode synchronously.  Red dwarves don’t flare in unison.  Nor do variable stars brighten and fade in time with one another.  Another, more mundane possibility is that they could be specks of dust on the photographic film.  Ok, possible… but the plate taken of the same area of sky half an hour before shows no such contamination.    However, there is one not-at-all mundane explanation that is being seriously considered by scientists.   Are these glints of sunlight being reflected off artificial objects that are in a near synchronous Earth orbit at a distance of 35,786 kilometres, moving at an inclined path with respect to the equator?   The point to remember here is that all survey telescopes track their field of view by moving themselves.  If they didn’t do this then as the Earth rotates each image of a star would get drawn out into a long trail.   Therefore, because these nine anomalies appear as point-like they must be matching the rotation of the Earth exactly.  Any other kind of motion would show itself as a drawn-out trail.  And if they were moving with respect to each other, that would also show up in the same way – trails on the photo.  This means that not only were these nine anomalies holding station with respect to the Earth, they were also holding station with respect to each other.  For nine separate objects to do that in Earth orbit requires them to be able to manoeuvre under their own power.  Natural objects do not have these capabilities.   But wait a minute!  This photo was taken in 1950.    The first artificial object placed into Earth orbit was Sputnik 1, in 1957.  And then that was in low Earth orbit, at an altitude of several hundred kilometres, not tens of thousands of kilometres.  Geosynchronous orbit wasn’t achieved by our satellites until 1963.   So, whatever these nine ‘things’ were, they weren’t ours.     Here are my sources of information about this topic.   https://vascoproject.org/vanishing-stars/   https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-92162-7     Thanks,   Walter.
    • walterpthefirst
      I tend to agree, mwc.     The Herculaneum scrolls are a long shot when it comes to revealing something new about Christianity.   But I politely submit that if we change from narrow focus to wide focus, then in the near future, when this non-intrusive, non-destructive technology for reading previously unreadable documents matures other libraries and sources could well throw some new light on the so-called 'canonical' bible that we have today.   Like you, I'd very much like to be pleasantly surprised.     Thanks,     Walter.
    • mwc
      I'm going to bet against you here.        I can't imagine anything having to do with the bible, especially the new religion, coming out of Herculaneum.  What will come from there will hopefully be copies of lost, but still known, documents (and that seems to be what might be the case given what had emerged so far).        The texts from Petra have been published in 4 or 5 volumes and they are, by and large, the operations of a rich Byzantine family.        Remember that before now they have unrolled these charred scrolls with varying levels of success although the end result always wound up destroying the scroll and, worse, the text written on them.  One of the earliest attempts worked to unwrap the scroll but the text disappeared almost immediately upon being exposed.  After they discovered this they would unwrap the scroll and copy the text knowing this would happen.  I believe the remnants of these are in the Vatican Museums (but I could have this wrong).        Anyhow, my point is that so far the library contains what is anticipated to be in a Roman library.  It would be quite the find to discover an esoteric text like something from the bible especially from what we think of as the new testament or anything talking about those events.        And, to quickly add, the DSS would be the only place to find anything related to the bible but since there's already disagreements between it and the Masoretic texts anything new here will likely only be interesting to academics.        So while it's an interesting time for ancient literature, and I have been watching this project for quite some time, I think it's only going to refine and not redefine things.  I'd love to be pleasantly surprised.             mwc  
    • moxieflux66
      Wish I did know but that never happened to me before. It wasn't connected to an emotion I was having at the time or even a thought. My eyes weren't burning or sore so that wasn't it. I was laughing a lot as well as crying.   
    • Weezer
      It is very possible some emotions were coming out that needed to come out.  Don't try to stop them.  Welcoming them and letting them flow can be very theraputic.  (if you are not in a public place)    That is one way these drugs can be helpful.  A "shortcut".  Sometimes therapist work for weeks getting a client to the point of releasing years of pent up feelings.  And it is very helpful when the emotion can be connected to its original issue.  
    • moxieflux66
      Yes, dried in a food dehydrator, ground and packed in gel caps. JUST ONE! That wasn't encouraging for microdosing.  Tea has been my go-to every time I've had the best experiences. But it's awfully hard to judge how much will work vs. TOO MUCH.  The last time I had too much tea, I started crying and couldn't stop. I wasn't sad or even happy, just very high.  Seemed to me some things I'd been suppressing were coming out in liquid form. 🤔  
    • Weezer
      I am also looking forward to your report on the retreat.   If this treatment has good potential (it looks like it does) big pharma companies will not be happy.  
    • TheRedneckProfessor
      Y'all just need to get high on jesus.  😆
    • Weezer
      Thanks for the effort.
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      Here because I want to see what more is out there. 
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    • Casualfanboy16

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      Happy New Year to my fellow heathens!!! Hope everyone has a fantastic new year and 2024 goes well for all people here! My New Year's resolution is to get a better sleep schedule (I'm not failing shhhhh! 🤫)
       
      Here's to a great 2024!! 🥳🍻🎊🎉
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